Shiwiii

Tell me this then, those who do not submit themselves to Christ at the end of the thousand year reign, did they gain to perfection as those who did submit?

My point was that God made the corrections to men, not men making corrections to men. When you have a group that changes from left to right and back to left again, then you must know that this did not come from God. Could God use this left right left to His advantage? sure, He uses people and circumstances to His advantage all the time, to work out His will. When a group claims to speak for God and these changes become apparent, it is not that hard to see God is not using this group as His mouthpiece. You know the saying that the WT uses, the one about tacking into the wind as a sailboat does? A few things came to mind about that. One, if this is describing the mode of operation of the WT how does this compare to say John the Baptist? John made the pathway before God straight (Isa 40:3/Matt 3:3/John 1:23/Mark 1:3/Luke 3:4). John preached one thing, repentance, and this didn't change. He did not say "repent" one day and then the next "you don't need to repent yet". The second point that came to mind was how if by tacking, a sailboat gains distance traveled, the sailboat also has a course set out and a destination. What ground/distance is gained in a flip flop of doctrines? It is reversing to a previous point, not advancing. What destination is there in mind when a complete reversal takes place? I completely agree with this, we are here to bounce opinions and ideas off of each other in a civil manner. The difference between us both sticking with the Bible and not being in agreement, it that of a bias we have within ourselves. I am content in using the Bible alone and allowing it to support itself. Are you? I agree that neither of us can understand everything there is, and we will miss things along the way, but our willingness to bring forth our ideas for criticism is what helps us remove our bias. Without an independent party (others on this forum and elsewhere) giving us what they see in both our view as well as their view, then we have a group who might as well believe the sky is falling.

So who does Satan gather together for war at the end of the 1000 year reign if all that are left are perfect?

So why don't you tell me who made those "changes"? I said God did and not men. I don't think I said anything about being right. The Bible tells us that God corrected the people. The Bible doesn't say that God changed His mind, but rather opened the mind of people. As far as my understanding of Paul, that is between me and God. You can have your opinion about me and what I believe, its ok. I am open to your criticisms and will listen, but that doesn't mean I will change to your views on things. I have the freedom in Christ to do so. If my questions bother you, then by all means let me know. I can rephrase them for clarity. I am simply going off the Bible, and if we both agree that the Bible is the Word of God, then there should be no problem.

The agreement to disagree is a disgraceful defeat if it means surrendering the hope of agreement through deeper understanding. It was not changes it was clarification to the people of what was meant. Who was it that made these "changes"? Was it a group of men or was it God? The answer is clear, it was God who corrected the people. There was no group of men changing things back and forth claiming to speak for God.

Here, let me refresh your memory and provide the transcript of the opening questions Mr. Jackson was asked: 6 Q. Do you recognise, Mr Jackson ‐ and in asking this 7 question, let me make it clear, I'm not suggesting it is 8 peculiar to the Jehovah's Witness organisation, there are 9 many, many organisations in this position ‐ but do you 10 accept that the Jehovah's Witness organisation has 11 a problem with child abuse amongst its members? 12 A. I accept that child abuse is a problem right 13 throughout the community and it's something that we've had 14 to deal with as well. 15 16 Q. Do you accept that the manner in which your 17 organisation has dealt with allegations of child sexual 18 abuse has also presented problems? 19 A. There have been changes in policies over the last 20 20 or 30 years, where we've tried to address some of those 21 problem areas, and by the fact that they have changed the 22 policy would indicate that the original policies weren't 23 perfect. 24 25 Q. And you accept, of course, that your organisation, 26 including people in positions of responsibility, like 27 elders, is not immune from the problem of child sexual 28 abuse? 29 A. That appears to be the case. By mentioning "that appears to be the case" shows Mr. Jackson's acceptance that there is in fact abuse at the hands of JW's in authority. The whole reason why the ARC had this inquiry was because the WT did not report to police. So acknowledgement that this is the case, and acknowledgement of the purpose of the hearing supports my claim. Actually the Campos case has the WT in Contempt of court and is being fined $4000 a day for failure to hand over documents. " A San Diego Superior Court judge has ordered the Church of Jehovah's Witnesses, also known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested... " " ... judge Richard Strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 Body of Elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders. " If this were a clerical error, then why have they not produced the documents yet? They are spending YOUR WWW donations daily to keep their records out of court!

One of Your Own popes, Geoffrey Jackson, has admitted that there have been molesters within the organization that have not been turned over to authorities. This isn't behind the scenes, but rather under oath in a court of law, Caesars law, to which the Bible tells us we must obey. Maybe you should watch the Australian royal commission and see for yourself. Or you can research the San Diego superior court case against Mr Campos. I'm not afraid to have my posts challenged, in fact I would hope each and every one of them are. Then we have discussion. You need to come to the table with proof of your claims and I will do the same. I've given you my proof, please provide yours.

This Statement By You Is Very telling. You have no idea of the facts, only what the wt has told you. For you to call these cases a money grab and that they are "shysters", when you know nothing of the abuse. The wt has admitted to the fact that these were substantiated claims and that they also have the proof and in some cases confessions. But you can't accept this. So you put your fingers in your ears and scream la la la la I can't hear you. Also by liking your own posts to puff up your "status" is par for the course with the wt too.

Aren't you reading a little too far into this and creating a persecution complex for the society? I for one do not believe this to be true of jws in general, but to fabricate a spin is just like the wt to do, instead of taking the "news" at face value. Now the second half is something completely different. The refusal to turn over documents that they had already turned over is appalling, unless they have something to hide. The details of the first turn over, being redacted beyond recognition is hiding something. If they stand for truth and what Jesus stood for, then they should have no problem.

Your answer here is exactly what I was saying: Lloyd St.- I would hope that the elders would make that plain to me and I would pray that I would have the humility to accept that counsel. It is not a "straw man", it is what you said, unless you choose to clarify further. Here you stated that if you knew better, you would still seek the elders to tell you what you really are supposed to believe. You said you would even pray that you would accept it. The same quote of yours I quoted in the response of #1. above is the words out of your "mouth" that supports my statement. Why in the world would you want to keep your mouth shut? Is your opinion not worth anything? Of course it is, and the only way "progression" happens is by people questioning things. No, I am no teacher of the Bible. I am only a person who reads it and tries to apply it to my life. I am one to question things when they claim to be of the Bible and are not. I do know quite a lot about the organization, but in no way do I know everything. You never did answer my questions, but I'll answer them for you. The Holy Spirit is to teach us of all things (John 14:26), The Christ is to be called "teacher" (Matthew 23:1-10), God directs us (Psalms 48:14). Actually Jesus only said to Peter once to feed His sheep, He asked him 3 times if he loved Him. Peter and Paul both said that circumcision was of no real value. Trying your best is admirable, forcing others to obey you and your belief without question is not. Building up people who want to serve God is great, it is something we all should do, but totalitarianism is the exact opposite of building up. I understand you believe that the organization is Jehovah's organization, and submission to the org is the same as submission to God. However there is no proof of this tie between the two. Enough said on this one. Yes, I see your point, it is what you would feel. I did ask how you would feel. I was being short sighted in thinking that one would not become proud and boastful in the discovery of truth before the org did. I was thinking more along the lines of how one would deal with the knowledge they attained and still support the org's view. It never crossed my mind that a person would gain a large ego over it. Jehovah's people? Who gets to draw the lines of who is and who isn't? Anyway, back on track. When you say "we've" do you mean you helped create the doctrines to which you now follow, or do you mean "we" as a collective org? while I know I have taken just a portion of your statement here, it is still within context. The organization prides itself on the persecution that it gets as proof, the problem is that it is usually self inflicted. Take for example the Australian Royal Comission, Candice Conti, San Diego Superior Court. The most recent is the San Diego one. The org is being held in contempt of court and sanctioned $4000 a day, yes a day for failing to provide unaltered documents in which they had previously had provided altered beyond legibility. This vastly superior knowledge is changing on a regular basis. What kind of trust can you put into something that is going to change next week/month/year? Would you drink a glass of water if it had just a little poison in it? It matters not what everyone thinks of me, what matters is what God thinks of me.

gotcha

But he did say he would believe it: "In other words, if the Watchtower suddenly published an article that said that the Trinity doctrine was correct, then I'd believe that, which is foolishness.....on several levels " This demonstrates the power the WT has over his beliefs. He is willing to accept whatever he is told "All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." - wt Nov 2013

This is why an organization is not needed. This is why Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His day. Groups who lord over the masses instill rules that were never supposed to be there. It is our job to help those who are unaware of God's grace and freedom. God does not reside in a building nor in a organization, but rather in the hearts of those who receive Him.

This tells me that you are following MEN and not God.

So you would accept that the org is right even though you know that they are not. That is called Cognitive dissonance. Who according to the Bible is to teach us all things? Who is to be called "teacher"? Who directs us? The answer to all of these is most definitely not an organization. So your hope is in the elders to tell you what to do and what not to do. This is not the "main plot" or theme of the Bible. No one said anything about feeling superior to others or tooting your own horn. This statement is a conditioned one in assuming that someone would puff themselves up on being correct, none of which was said. This is the thinking that has been ingrained in followers to not think for themselves, or else they are being proud or boosting their own ego. This keeps people toeing the company line and turning in those who think differently.

So tell me this, if you or someone understood a scripture to mean something and it was in disagreement with the WT. You were reproved for this because it went against the org, and later it became that you were right, what would that say to you? You were forced to believe the WT instead of what you knew to be correct. Wouldn't this be the same as those folks who died without a organ transplant? Since it has changed, is the blood on the hands of the WT over these people? You are required to adhere to every teaching they tell you, without question and without harboring your own personal thoughts on the matter, right? How does that make any sense? I mean that's what those people did who died without an organ transplant. a side note, the issue may be a small one but still addresses my point: Are the people of Sodom and Gomorrah going to be resurrected? yes no yes no yes no these are the answers given to the witnesses over the years. Is this progression? Is this light getting brighter? or is this a who knows we'll just fly by the seat of our pants because all of the witnesses HAVE to believe what we tell them?

then why do they expect you to obey THEM perfectly?

If you paid for your own sins by your death, then Jesus died for nothing. This is what you are saying? Context of Romans 6:7 is that the dead can no longer sin, they are free from acting in sin, not that they have been acquitted. Just read verse 6 and see if you yourself have been crucified? Also, Daniel 12:2 opposes your view, rather the WT view, of not being judged based upon what you do now but what you do in your "second chance". verse 2 clearly states that once awakened/resurrected it is time for judgement, not time for trying again and then judgement.

Onthe contrary, proof was given, you just choose to turn a blind eye. Reread the post and think about it.

well, That Is What I Was Thinking

Doesn't The Baptism Questions Require You To Dedicate Yourself To The Organization?

Melinda, these things we research are from your organization, and not from outside sources. You are correct in this, however we bring these things up so that you and others can research them too. If there is another understanding, other than what we observe, by all means provide the information or link to clarify. You see, we are taking what the wt says and comparing it to scripture if it fits great but if not our question is why? I took the liberty to include Holly in my comment, and if I misrepresent her I expect her to correct me.

and again, doctrines of MEN instead of from God.

What is the point of being on a forum if there is no personal opinion to present? I mean to regurgitate text from any source, without personal input, does nothing to foster a discussion. Isn't that what a forum is about? To foster discussion?

at what point does a person stop allowing men to govern their lives as if these men are God Himself? Take a look at the 1000's of rules applied to the Jews by the pharisees about the Sabbath. What did Jesus say about this? Mark 7:5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” 6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’