Shiwiii

Does 1 Peter 3:15 mean nothing to you then?. It says "everyone who asks you"

Then explain with scripture your position.

So you are saying that I should pray to God so that he will help you explain how you come to a conclusion that really isn't obvious nor found in the Bible? lol I believe this is your escape phrase for when you cannot defend a position you have, I've seen it before from you. You have not provided any scriptural support for your belief. Its ok, you can believe whatever you want, but don't claim it is from God's word if you cannot support it.

The term of offspring is used as similarity, meaning of the same family/group/ like mindedness. This is the reason why all belong to Christ who have the same faith as Abraham. Heirs of the promise is described in detail in Galatians chapter 4:21-31 and how the faith that Abraham had distinguishes the difference between those who try and uphold the law vs the faithful ones. then you DO realize that there is not something prestigious about the resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous as if it were something different for Abraham vs the 1st century Christians. Again, I have yet to see any scriptural support for there being a different destiny for Abraham vs the 1st century Christians. I want to know how you support this idea.

no, I just fail to see your logic in comparison between the righteous and unrighteous in your statement. not only will Abraham have this "place" but so will the unrighteous.

doesn't everyone have this? i mean its not something prestigious or else the unrighteous wouldn't have a place there too. of course he wouldn't be his own offspring, but rather the patriarch and ultimately belonging to Jesus as your scripture shows (Gal 3:29) . Galatians 3:6-9 tells us that those who have faith, like Abraham did, are sons of Abraham. This is meaning that those with faith like Abraham's faith are of the same family, the same group, the same all the way around. So why would their destiny's be any different? I still do not see in the scriptures you posted any deviation from a common destiny for both Abraham and the 1st century Christians.

after reading the scriptures you used as proof, I find no reference to Abraham's destiny being different. Please elaborate. Your reference does speak about Abraham and his life but nothing about a different destiny.

If it is obvious can you give scriptural proof of this?

This is interesting as I was just reading about the gift of eternal life and the idea the society has in regards to the anointed. The distinction the society makes between the anointed and regular jws on receiving eternal life is almost on par with this righteousness topic. I would say that the righteousness is a bit more like eternal life than perfection. In John 5:24 we are told that all who hear the words of Jesus and believe, HAVE eternal life. Already a given once one believes, John 6:40 &47. This would be the same thing as Abraham's belief and also that of the 1st century Christians.

That is a very interesting thought. I mean, how can an organization claim to be "spirit directed" and the leaders not be inspired? Maybe the term "spirit directed" only means that the organization tries to do what they think is right and nothing more, based on their ideas and interpretation of the Bible. Not claiming any divine direction, but rather allowing their thoughts on certain topics in the Bible guide them. I'm pretty sure most JW's would agree with this statement, but there is a problem with that though. It no longer makes the wt or JWs any different than any other religion. Isn't that what most religions claim? Do others not claim to follow the Bible/God to their best ability and interpretation? Of course they do, but the real trouble comes in when any group claims to be the sole source of understanding, or the only organization with "the truth". A group cannot claim this superiority if they are not any different that any other religion in their belief of being "spirit directed". On the other hand, I do believe that the wt thinks of itself as truly guided by God's spirit and not like the scenario above. There is a problem though and this is why the statement of not being inspired was created. This was done to brush off the failed predictions, to excuse the fact that many people have died needlessly over the whole blood/fractions of blood and the mishandling of child sexual abuse to name a few. By stating that they are not inspired they now get that "get out of jail free" card and at the same time still create absurd rules and requirements that are biblically unfounded. They hold onto their power over the jw's and at the same time try and cover themselves legally. I think this might have worked if it was the understanding from the beginning, but I'm afraid now it only looks like a cover up. It will work only to those who want to believe contradictory speech or ones too far invested to reverse (family/friends, etc.).

you can bury your head in the sand all you like, but the "conscience matter" is a blind. It is a loophole to make it seem not as dogmatic as it actually is. Did you happen to notice the young woman who died in Canada recently? It was all over the news about how there were several "elders" pressing the refusal of a transfusion, even though her uterus burst and she was bleeding out. There is now an investigation on the matter because of the undue influence upon the young woman.

so fractions of blood is where in scripture? I only quoted it as it was written. If you take that as manipulation it is in your head. again, where is fractions of blood mentioned in scripture?

This sums it up completely. You attribute the wt as scripture. I get that now, I just didn't really think jws thought that way. Exactly my point and I agree with you on this. 1 Thess 5:21 "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to what is good." We are to diligently inspect that which we think is correct from all sources, not just the sources we are told are ok to use. Colossians 2:8 " See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." your statement assimilates the wt with Jesus and Judas with Ray Franz. There is no misunderstanding. What you wrote is plain for all to see. Maybe you meant something different, but it is your analogy. The onus is not on me, but rather on those who make the claim.

you are applying the WT literature as scripture?!?!?!? wow, just wow. Where is it written in the Bible that God appointed the gb of anything? It doesn't exist! What proof do you have that the wt is selected? None! Moses spoke directly to God, the wt? nope, the gb? nope. now you equate the wt with Jesus? seriously? There is only one truth, Jesus! Not some group of people in NY or any paper passed out or studied. There is no proof of this appointing and self appointment doesn't count.

There is by contrast, a nice contradiction I can provide: November 15th 2013 Watchtower (Study Edition), page 20 pp 17 17 Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20131115/seven-shepherds-eight-dukes/ Compare this with the Feb 17th Watchtower 12 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor perfect. It can make mistakes when explaining the Bible or directing the organization. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-simplified-february-2017/who-is-leading-gods-people-today/ Why would anyone want to follow a group of men who demand this loyalty in 2013 and then claim they really don't know what they are doing in 2017?

There is no contradiction. Also, where in the Bible does it say that one must align themselves with an organization for salvation? It doesn't, that is a man made idea to keep you under control.

The main difference between the WT and , as you put it, "every Christian sect" is that there is no demand to adhere to the teaching of men but instead the teaching of God. A perfect example of this is the blood doctrine, where in the Bible does it split blood into fractions? Men did, not God. If one is to read the Bible closely, about this blood and regulations of it, we can see that it is in Acts that there is the command to abstain from blood (Acts 15 and 21). It is also stated in Acts that "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy". However, reading further and after the writings of Acts, we also see where God told Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 that we could eat anything without asking questions for conscience sake. Whatever we eat and whatever we drink to do it to the glory of God. One must seriously take a good look at this, because if a person is to believe that we are to abstain from blood fully, then no amount of men should change that. There is no fractions, no part this or part that, or even the recirculating of one's own blood. Abstinence is abstinence. For men to change this into anything other than abstinence is wrong, if that is what you believe the bible says of blood. You see, in "every Christian sect" other than the WT, no one is excommunicated for things that are not clear in the Bible. No one is cast out for their own interpretation of blood. It is only in high control groups that you have this "you either do as we say or your out" mentality. I know this is going to spark some denial from some of you, but in reality you already know that you have given your self control away to men.

How can you adhere to men who admit they err in the direction they take the org, and still in the same breath say they are God's channel here on earth? God uses crooked sticks to draw a straight path. There are plenty of scriptures that state why we should test and not follow men, but rather follow God. Deut 18:22 for example.

This clearly tells us that God is not directing this organization, but instead the gb is.

12 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor perfect. It can make mistakes when explaining the Bible or directing the organization. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-simplified-february-2017/who-is-leading-gods-people-today/ If this is the case then why must a JW adhere to the doctrines they say? Why is it that a JW cannot believe differently from what the gb says without the fear of being disfellowshipped or shunned? We know they either were wrong or are wrong on the topic/doctrine of blood. Nowhere in the Bible does it separate blood into fractions, but yet the gb says that this part is ok and this part is not. At one time blood transfusions were fine, but now it is only a part of blood that is fine.......hmmmm Either they were wrong then or wrong now, which is it? Or are they wrong in both time frames? They just published that they could have been mistaken when directing all JW's, but if you knew in your heart they were wrong and went against what they teach/taught you would be cast out. Is that the loving way Jesus demonstrated for us to treat each other? Why is it that you must obey them?

Is that your way of escaping your comment?

What "truths" are there in the Bible on fractions of blood?

Good Day Witness and thank you for your thoughts. I agree with you to an extent. Yes Jesus did become the sanctuary, also Ezekiel 11:16 speaks of YHWH being a sanctuary for His people. So I agree with you that both are the sanctuary. You mention a kind of distinction between verses 13,14 and 15 as if the message changes characters. While I agree that in the OT there are many references to Jesus and certainly we must look carefully, however we are talking about the cornerstone. In this portion of Isaiah I see no shift in character. It is YHWH speaking to Isaiah and telling him about what will happen to Israel. One would have to divide sentence by sentence and apply each to either YHWH or Jesus and that just doesn't make sense. The Hebrews at the time applied these scriptures fully to God. It is only after Jesus came did they look back and attribute scriptures like these to Jesus. My point being is that this cornerstone is spoken of YHWH in Isaiah 8, it may also apply to Jesus, but it still is attributed to YHWH. We see many of these character stamps of YHWH throughout the OT that are also spoken of Jesus in the NT. I find it very hard to separate verse 14 of Isiah 8 from the rest of the scriptures and not have it be spoken of YHWH.

Doesn't Isaiah 8:11-15 identify this rock that the Israelite's would stumble over, Jehovah? I mean verse 11 tells us clearly that Jehovah is the one speaking and declaring these things. 11 With his strong hand on me, this is what Jehovah said to me to warn me away from following the course of this people: 12 “You should not call a conspiracy what this people calls a conspiracy! Do not fear what they fear; Do not tremble at it. 13 Jehovah of armies—he is the One you should regard as holy, He is the One you should fear, And he is the One who should cause you to tremble.” 14 He will become as a sanctuary, But as a stone to strike against And as a rock to stumble over To both houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare To the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 Many of them will stumble and fall and be broken; They will be ensnared and caught. The cross references in these verses point to verses like Matt 21:42-44, 1 Cor 1:23 and 1 Peter 2:6-8 Which I presented above.

I think up to this point we are on the same page, please correct me if I am wrong. Here is where I think we may differ, does the Bible say that this cornerstone is anyone other than Jesus?