HollyW

You probably noticed that one of the teachings listed in the article has already been changed: That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That's correct, but the article itself does mention 1914 and does say you must believe it in order to received salvation: Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. I think 1914 qualifies as a Scriptural belief that is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses, don't you? I'm not so sure about that since the article itself does seem to be pretty dogmatic about disagreeing with even just one of their teachings. In another WT they say JWs should not even be harboring thoughts that are in disagreement with WTS teachings: First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45. I agree that there are those things worth the "battle", so to speak, and some that aren't, and from what the WTS says about preaching the wrong timing of the resurrection (about it being apostasy) this seems like an important topic to research and discuss. So I appreciate your posts and the time and consideration you've given to them.

First tell me what "present in kingly power" actually means to you and then I'll tell you if I agree because Christ has had kingly power since at least the first century. Nor do I believe Christ's second advent happened in 1914, if that's what it means to you, so give me some direction here on what that means to you. Thanks.

Ann, JW Insider, and now Anna. Even the cartoon you posted is relevant to us trying to tell you the statement on page 20 is wrong but you won't accept it. That's why I said what I did about the need for the WTS to tell you it isn't true, that way you might accept what we've been saying.

Other folks have discussed photos that have been posted here. Not that I have anything more to say about, but, why is this particular one not to have any discussion about it?

Also from the website jw.org

I think Christians with a preterist view may believe it's already happened, just not over a whole bunch of years the way the WTS teaches.

I underlined the direct portion of your statement. If you could please provide a direct quote from a publication about this I'm not sure why the two I've already provided (from the 1993 wt and the Revelation Climax book) don't answer your question about what I said. The WTS says the first resurrection began in 1918 with the resurrection of the dead in Christ from the first century to the start of the resurrection in 1918. But that was not all of the 144,000, they say. There were still anointed JWs who had not died yet, but as each one dies during the time from 1918 to the present, he or she is immediately resurrected to heaven. Are you thinking that some of these spirit-anointed JWs would not be ones who are in good standing with the WTS?

I underlined the direct portion of your statement. If you could please provide a direct quote from a publication about this I'm not sure why the two I've already provided (from the 1993 wt and the Revelation Climax book) don't answer your question about what I said. The WTS says the first resurrection began in 1918 with the resurrection of the dead in Christ from the first century to the start of the resurrection in 1918. But that was not all of the 144,000, they say. There were still anointed JWs who had not died yet, but as each one dies during the time from 1918 to the present, he or she is immediately resurrected to heaven. Are you thinking that some of these spirit-anointed JWs would not be ones who are in good standing with the WTS?

Janice, let me preface this by saying all my quotes are from the WTS cd-library disc. You say you didn't understand the connection between what the QFR article in the 4/1/1986 wt and that of preaching the wrong timing of the first resurrection as being apostasy. I'll quote it from the article [bolding is mine]: Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include? That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4. Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.

Thank you, Anna! That certainly supports the fact that the statement on page 20 is false. Quite a bungle, wouldn't you say! Now if they would just admit the statement on page 22 is also false.

Jammy, this translation by John Eliot is very interesting. At first I thought it was in German, but a little more research shows that it was in Algonkian (Algonquin) because he was spreading the gospel to the Native Americans here in North America. I think I'd view this the same as the J Docs, that it would not be sufficient to support correcting the NT Greek mss. Would you?

Eoin, the key is for the WTS to tell the truth about when it was that they began to discern the sign of Christ's presence in 1914. That way you'll finally believe what several of us now have already told you: i.e. it was not in 1914 that they began to discern the sign of Christ's presence in 1914. It wasn't until long after 1914 that they began to discern the sign of his presence in 1914. You're absolutely correct that they could not have discerned something that was not there, yet that is exactly what they said they were doing from 1876 to long after 1914.

Well, of course I can see the Bible under his picture, but Russell didn't write the Bible so why are you thanking him for it unless you have in mind what he thought was the truth in the Bible (as I said earlier, most of what Russell said was the truth is rejected by current JWs). Just wanted to be clear about why you are speaking to Russell.

None of the Greek mss of the NT have YHWH in them. The WTS knows this and has even acknowledged it. But then they round up the J Docs (from what? the 1500's and later) and use them to put "Jehovah" where they want to and ignore the other places the J Docs have Jehovah.

Oh, okay, my bad. I thought you meant you were thanking Russell for what he actually taught as the truth. Now I understand you are thanking him for God's Word, the Bible.

It's ironic that on the one hand the WTS does say God kept the Bible intact and correct, but then they contradict themselves by saying the NT Greek texts we base our translations on were tampered with in a what they characterize as "one of the addest and most reprehensible" ways by removing God's name from every NT Greek mss in all of 127 places. What the WTS seems to be using the J Docs for is to "correct" the inspired Greek mss. Does that seem right to you, to use uninspired translations done hundreds of years after the Bible canon closed, to emend the texts God actually inspired? It sure doesn't seem right to me.

You still keep missing the point. It was NOT in 1914 that they "began to discern". The statement in the book shows, at best, ignorance of the WTS history. At worst, it is an outright lie, just as the one on page 22 is. If it's because of the former, whoever wrote it should not be allowed to do write anything more until he or she has thoroughly researched it so they know what they're talking about. But then, how did it get past the men on the GB? It it's because of the latter, every JW should be thoroughly researching this without fail, as you have begun to do. But, again, look at what you keep calling what you say Jehovah and Jesus found to be "food in due season."

As usual with WTS bans, the beard ban has undergone some 'adjustments' so that if it's a cultural thing in ones area, JW men are permitted beards now (still not for women, though ;)) So when you say "thank you" to Russell, do you believe he hears and answers you?

Really? The WTS has pretty much discarded what Russell said the truth was and took some extra-ordinary steps, such as banning beards (on men ;)) to discourage the creature worship they felt was going to Russell.

That is my point. But that isn't the point on page 20 of the book. It's saying that it was in 1914 that they began to discern the sign of Christ's presence. That isn't true. That's why I asked if you would reword their sentence to make it tell the truth. You seem to indicate that you do know it isn't an accurate statement yet you continue to try to uphold it. Let's look again at the statement in "God's Kingdom Rules" on page 22: Long before 1914, the Bible Students said that a time of trouble would begin in that marked year. Notice that it is saying "long before 1914" -- it's a bit of a stretch, don't you think, that they mean 10 years is "long before 1914"? Also, do you see how you are characterizing the very publications Jehovah and Jesus would have been inspecting and evidently approving as "food in due season"? I mean, I'm very glad you see how off-base those publications are, but to maintain that God reviewed them and considered them proper spiritual sustenance is contradictory.

Hi Jammy, thanks for this information. In looking at this translation at Google books, most of the times Jehovah is used in it are in footnotes. As to the OT quotes that have Jehovah in the actual text of this translation, there apparently is only one, which is Psalm 110:1 each of the three times it is quoted: Matthew 22:24; Mark 12:36; Acts 2:34. The other times are all in these footnotes: Mark 12:29 footnote: Gussetius, Dr. Clarke, and the of Ben Mordecai, render, “Jehovah, is one.” Mark 12:32 footnote: For there is one God.] If we omit ‘theos’, for which omission see the authorities, we must render, “for he is one.” That is, “he is one Lord:” or, “Jehovah is one.” John 1:1 footnote: The Word.] See 1 John i.1. Rev. xix 13. Jesus, the Son of God, is so called because God revealed himself, or his word, by him. The Chaldee paraphrases often have Imimra Jehovah, vebum Jehovae, for Jehovah; God, as revealing himself to his people, being called the word of God. The Son was the Revealer of his Father’s will under the Old Covenant. “No man hath seen God at any time:” v. 18: but the Son was his [Greek ] the declarer of his will, and his Image and Representative.” John 8:58 footnote: 58. I am.]……our Lord, having been the visible Jehovah under the dispensations preceding the evangelical… John 12:41 footnote: 41. His glory.] As the representative of Jehovah. Isai. vi. I, etc. Acts 7:38 footnote: 38. The angel.] The angel of the covenant, the Representative of Jehovah. Acts 7:41 footnote: 41. Rejoiced in the works of their own hands.] They feasted and danced before the idol which they had made; instead of confining their religious joy to Jehovah their God. https://books.google.com/books?id=LjATAAAAQAAJ&pg=116&Ipg=PA116#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hi Janice, and thank you. Yes, the quote from the 2007 WT is what brings up the question about the timing of the first resurrection because it seems to cast some doubt on the WTS's earlier teachings about 1918 being the date the resurrection began. The importance of this teaching should cause all JWs to research this because their religious leaders say that teaching wrongly about it is what the Bible brands as apostasy. (see 4/1/1986 wt p.31) For the exact quotes you've asked for, let's start with the WTS definition of resurrection: [rs p.333] Resurrection involves a reactivating of the life pattern of the individual, which life pattern God has retained in his memory. According to God’s will for the individual, the person is restored in either a human or a spirit body and yet retains his personal identity, having the same personality and memories as when he died. Notice that it is not a spiritual body but a spirit body that the anointed JWs are to have their life patterns reactivated in. A spiritual body is described in 1 Corinthians 15 as a physical body that comes back to life and is clothed with immortality and incorruption. The following quote shows that as each anointed JW dies, he/she is 'resurrected' as a spirit and goes to heaven (some publications say this resurrection takes place in heaven): [w93 1/15 p. 6] Upon dying in faithfulness during Christ’s presence, each one of the remnant of spiritual Israel instantaneously receives his heavenly reward. “In the twinkling of an eye,” he is resurrected as a spirit creature and “caught away” to meet Jesus and to serve as a coruler in the Kingdom of the heavens. I think the Revelation Climax book is still the current WTS commentary on Revelation and it has this on pages 103-104: [re p.103-104 par.14] Those of Jesus’ anointed brothers who survive to Jesus’ presence, that is, who are still alive on earth during his presence, are preceded into heaven by those who have already died. Such ones, dead in union with Christ, rise first. Jesus descends, that is, turns his attention to them, and resurrects them to spirit life, giving them “a white robe.” Afterward, those who are still alive as humans finish their earthly course, many of them dying violently at the hands of opposers. They do not, however, sleep in death as their predecessors did. Rather, when they die, they are instantly changed—“in the twinkling of an eye”—caught away to the heavens to be with Jesus and fellow members of the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:50-52 Hope this helps.

Thanks, Janice. I'll see if I can put some dates the WTS applies to the first passage I quoted: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. The WTS says this event took place some time in 1918. Jehovah created spirit bodies and in them reactivated the life patterns of the apostles, the early Christians, and those Christians who died faithful in the years between the first century A.D. and 1918 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.” The WTS says this has been taking place ever since as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS. In heaven Jehovah then creates a spirit body to house what he remembers about their character and personality. Do you know if this is still their teaching or if they've changed the timing of this resurrection again? Also, does it seem like Paul is writing about two separate events, one that takes place immediately and the next that takes place over many decades?

Apology accepted, Ben.

Absolutely!