Srecko Sostar

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

carry on about there being a true religion and an end of this system of things.

If WT and members prefer more to be called as "only true religion" and proves that with methods that are only suits them (self-rightful and self-justified methods), instead of charity works which are done by other people, groups or organizations whose methods and tries to help, according to WT and your quote are of no value. 

Because according  your terminology is just vain attempt to "fix" what is not fixable. Then please think about that how in this minutes when we, you and i speaking in the wind, doing nothing, some other people, who are not JW members, feeding hungry babies, giving water to thirsty people, giving education to children in some forgotten country, curing illness and helping  patients to endure the pain ..... and that all is just meaningless work???

 Your recommendation and counsel is not to do that kind of "fixing" but -- if you see your brother that is hungry, tell him, go brother and feed yourself ...but  i will give you internet address of JWorg and you will be spiritually satiated :)))))  This is not USA or Croatian way of "humor", this is biblical way, ahaha.        

47 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

this is sillier and more irresponsible than most of what you have said

:)))) perhaps, but anything is possible. On other hand, WT is corporation and have more benefit of living members (bringing money) than dead members. Those who died for reason of faith are kind of martyrs and are good for history books. Depend of to what group someone belongs he/she will  glorify its representatives, not representatives of someone  else's group, religion and so.  

Your daughter said nice answer, but WT knows who will be saved and who not. Answers are in 140 years published materials. :)))

i am just "mule" who stubbornly stops on the road  and speak :))))))))) find the parable if you can, hehehe 

3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

And as you observe

Thanks to your post i can observe. And because this forum is designed to comment i also do that. Thanks to US law of free speech and Amendments :))) 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

the world is salvageable and we should all work to fix it

Tom, and bible too gave hope that the world is salvageable, or "the good news" told something else?

If you are agree with JW teachings, you as JW member also working to fix it, do not you? Must i really make drawing picture to show that for you? :))) You as member try to "fix" :

1) yourself because you are, if you are, in process of "gaining new personality" according to Jesus image, or JHVH image :)))

2) you and WT creating "new nation", or "new earth" instead (which will replace) this "old".

Is it not obvious that you with all WT disciples and followers working on "fixing The World" (with "publishing" methods, with legislative methods), but wait for someone else to do "dirty job", and kill all who are not agree with NWO? But what if GB released instruction and say that members have to do that dirty job?? like in old time when Israel males and some females killed "the enemy"  :((( because god said so.     

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Pursue legal means to effect reversal of ignorant injustice.

If we, every single person, JW or non-JW "pursue legal means" for purpose to oppose all injustice that threatens various people all around the world for every kind of "ignorant injustice" - than we would show what it is in our mind and heart. Then we will advocate for all people without prejudice and we would be impartial, and not only for one of "our sort".

He, Dennis, choose to "dye" for god and fatherland aka WT organization. Maybe my words sounds unsympathetic or rough, but  injustice are everywhere, inside us and outside of us. Prison time can be good time for Dennis to make personal introspective of his feelings, attitudes, reasons, faith, belongings and much more. But of course that must not be the case, perhaps he will continue in supporting stubbornness for "wrong zeal" to establish own and/ or WT righteousness. 

Watchtower is ONLY business corporation (and only FOR business) Synonyms in JW vocabulary for WT are; organization, society, Mother organization, God's organization. In such perception, in fact every average JW member are assured in his/her believing, and that is true, how it is from God JHVH. WT is religious corporation or corporational religion, what ever you prefer more. 

Shareholders comes every year on Annual meeting that look like congregational meeting with new "spiritual food" lessons, revelations, teachings, doctrines, instructions. What a mix. And according to video all shareholders are"mature, active and faithful males" :))))) So really this corporation are macho style religion.

Non-stock and non-profit? hehehehe  

Glad that was mentioned 1. President W.H. Conley but need to add, Russell the Father (Joseph) was Vice President with young C.T.Russell as Secretary Treasurer. In time of Inc. 1884. Charles became President and his wife Maria was Secretary Treasurer. So, Russel in that particular time was very advanced in his looking on woman's "role, place and nature" or just want that business stay in family :))))))

3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

but James 1:13 remains true.

Perhaps we can comment on this verse connected to issue in this way. 

Reasons for Dennis is in jail are;

because WT instructions,

because Dennis obey WT instructions,

because Dennis interpretations on WT instructions,

because on Dennis interpretations on Bible and Gods will,

because Dennis decide to not obey Russian law,

because ...... 

I would like to comment about Dennis from few aspects. 

1) What is Gods will in this matter? Because no one know what it is, we, as people, can talking and talking what ever we want.

2) What is of best interest to Dennis? Is it better for him to be in prison or to be "free"? Because nobody knows that, we can wish what ever we want but that must not bring nothing good or bad to Dennis.

3)What is that in Bible which would give suggestion to people what would be good to do about Dennis? As to my knowledge and memories, the best is to stay and wait on JHVH. Second solution is to pray that he can endure his life position, and third is to rejoice, he and all around him because he is in position to suffer for Jesus name or JHVH name. So somebody can ask, why to stop him of opportunity to be happy and feel all joy because his suffering is for blessing.

4) Don't you think that God let to be so because Dennis must learn important lessons in life that he was not learned yet?

56 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You need to lighten up

Thanks for lighten details. I can accept some humorous, even in serious things. So Tom show some sense of humor on what i was smiled. But only on one part. On other part can not.

But if it is so in USA (not meaning nothing bad with this) than i can now finally understand all about WT organization. US citizen who are founders of that corporation/religion is all that what you tell me in your little story.    

Guys, now i must go, you know .. i have new task in my To do List - to find some talking mule in nearby area :)))))))))

44 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

don't believe in....

WTJWorg said that JW people are most honest people in a world, the most truthful and all superlatives. The way you talk to me in this last respond, all that what your church claim is/are - you mocking now and doing grotesque and burlesque of your Faith and yourself. Sorry, but if is so with you, I do not see purpose to communicate with you in this way.

Stay well. 

Strong, exclusively statement. Please give me few examples. :))

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I am not speaking biblically. I am simply speaking of reasons that are not hypocritical.

Tom i do not know you, are you JW, JW in good standing, fading JW, sleeping JW, weak faith JW .... or whatever/whoever else.

I just wrongly expected that all words you using would be "biblical" or as some NT verse said "seasoned with the salt" aka biblical salt. My fault :)))).

So may i said that you are not fully honest - i will not call you as, hypocritical for the sake of polite conversation :)))) That is something we must check for ourselves. 

Right reasons for you must not be right reasons for me and vice versa. It is unpleasant surprise, but not unexpected, that you talking about so called "essential doctrines", and named two or three as genius, original and essential, but forget all doctrines and instructions that ones was The Truth and constitute doctrines and teachings that was, and this new today are, specific, special, or as publications said with this specific term unique to JW religion. If you go to religion history many of those unique doctrines and teachings are not so new and specific only to WTJWorg. You can find it in other religions and religious groups too. Some of them existing, some are history.  

I left because i love the truth, but not your truth or WT truth. So, would you put this reason to right or wrong, it is not something that must make me worried. :))      

3 minutes ago, Bible Speaks said:

They deceive even the world, courts and the weak in Faith!

In other words - satan deceiving satan?

Do you negate wrongdoing that WT have done about/to victims of child molestation? 

3 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

professional apostates

Will you please explain this terminology. How on earth apostates can be professional :)))

Merriam-Webster:  Definition of apostate for English Language Learners; someone whose beliefs have changed and who no longer belongs to a religious or political group

Thousands of ex JW members: childrens, adults, young and old, male or female, ordinary members or ex ministerial, elders, pioneers, missionaries, Bethelite...how can they be professional  apostates. 

If i am finished some school and be learned by some who know job, maybe i will come to be "professional" some day in future. But what education people have to finished to become "professional apostates"?

This picture and text about purpose for meeting is proof in a series of evidence about the relationship between religion (particularly JW religion) and politics. 

Now we have at least two possibility.

In first one, JW member (if somehow come to this and similar info) maybe will try to explain to self that it is fine that brother try to do best in "defending and legally establishing of the good news" - no problem if he must for that noble goal "sitting in the same table with devil" and his human servants.  

In second, after hearing or reading such material, mental condition occurs in JW member (or anyone else) which negates reality. Facts, evidence, reality - says one but rooted idea, faith in that what they taught to him, rejecting the possibility that he or his teachers (scholars, catechists) are in the wrong. That mind state calls cognitive dissonance. This disease is sometimes incurable.

21 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But one should leave for the right reasons

From GB standpoint, leaving JW it is not impossible with "right reasons". Because according GB theology leaving JW = leaving God. So, who can have good reasons to leaving God?? :))))))

Please Tom, asking questions is crucial, and there is no WRONG questions, but please ....you made STATEMENT - "But one should leave for the right reasons." With this no one can go anywhere. :))    

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Nobody ever said

heehe, now you speak as GB in WT magazine; "Jesus never told that FDS will produce perfect food"

Do you aware what a nonsense is to using such logic and argumentation?? "Jesus never told...." this or that. Who was been with Jesus all the time while on Earth that would be able to CLAIM TODAY - Jesus never told (this/that) ...??? 

WT publications and public talks using this  auxiliary sentence, buzzword, phrase to support what is impossible to support. It is not possible to support two things; 1) human error doctrine and 2) reality of what Jesus told or not told.

Please, please, standing for such idea is blasphemy. Imagine what Jesus would feel and tell for people who dare to claim (in his name) that they know what HE was told and what He was not told. Imagine if you have spirit (i guess you have). :)))

Dear people. And Kurt.

I would like to comment your calling for Dennis from few aspects. 

1) What is Gods will in this matter? Because no one know what it is, we, as people, can talking and talking what ever we want.

2) What is of best interest to Dennis? Is it better for him to be in prison or to be "free"? Because nobody knows that, we can wish what ever we want but that must not bring nothing good or bad to Dennis.

3)What is that in Bible which would give suggestion to people what would be good to do about Dennis? As to my knowledge and memories, the best is to stay and wait on JHVH. Second solution is to pray that he can endure his life position, and third is to rejoice, he and all around him because he is in position to suffer for Jesus name or JHVH name. So somebody can ask, why to stop him of opportunity to be happy and feel all joy because his suffering is for blessing.

4) Don't you think that God let to be so because Dennis must learn important lessons in life that he was not learned yet?

Think this is enough for first comment :)))       

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

it has only been applied to political matters in the last decade

i think that can be applied and on religious sphere. Flip-flop with teachings and doctrines is nothing else than "spinning" in circle. For example organ transplantation or blood components. One day you can, next day no you can not. Generation issue is spin also. Michael the archangel is in first place Roman Pope but today is Jesus - what a spiiiiin :))))   

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Spin

I know, America is the source of many inventions. I assume that in many countries is like in Croatia too. English language is popular, and "small" languages in many things, in lexical way for purpose of our conversation, are in "copy-paste" manner. Here is also popular to use "spin" instead some domestic words or explanation. hehehehe lack of personal vocabulary, lazy-nest to learn, using because it is "modern" or that person looks as is modern.

But about our purpose, spinning is just adequate for that what we talking about. WT is modern organization and have own PR personnel, so everyone can spin everything.     

21 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

translates

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He was probably giving you

Of course, Miloš was "nice old brother". What he was done good or bad in his JW life is not on me to take too much care, and is outside of my knowledge. But according to experience and information i have with some other bro's on position of power, "spinning from good to bad" is skill that is not strange to them.

As to bro Miloš, i know that he helped one bro in ex yugoslavia to get the position of regular pioneer  (in those old time 90 hours a month). Domestic elders in his cong.  not want to sign his request for regular pioneer, so he and one elder-friend of him went to Belgrade (from Zagreb) to settle things with first elder of YU Bethel. I am witness to that.

Spinning is very spacious expression :)))))

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Attach your refusal to the highest cause possible if you want to maximize chances of success.

I was not first nor last in those time in that matter. Sentences for refusing was 1-10 years. Bethel knew that as they knew that some bros was in prison few times for the same "crime". As to my knowledge Bethel did not want to involve them self to help brothers in that issue and "negotiate" with authority. Maybe the are, i do not know,  but not publicly and perhaps did not want to share such info among rank and file. You know that many thing until today WT and GB want to do in secrecy. Imagine why. Example for that is so evident - Russian ban is top news on all JWorg programs, but ARC and G. Jackson disposal in front Judge and M. Agnus (lawyer) is not mentioned with one single word or letter or coma on JWorg and publications. I do not see what is your purpose to defend such manner of corporation and their leaders.

Of course that many details are not known to me, but i also recall in period after 1990, one of first Bethel elders, Petar Hamadej, said it clearly, "we do not want to suggest to secular government what to do about JW (in regard some issue, civil service or else) but we want that they give suggestion, idea, solution and then we say Yes or No". My conclusion after such statement and attitude is how people in WT org who are on "responsible positions" are very complicated people. It is better to not have any job with them :))))  

59 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The concept of NATURAL and ARTIFICIAL conscience

Dear friend James,

Thank you very much for your response.

This clarity and reveal, answer about this issue came to me recently, so do not feel sad for your mind opening so late in life, hehehe.

I found how very important thing is to get out of WTJWorg thinking box (that has been my life/religious space all this decades). Between, inside boundaries of WT theology, often is not possible to see more than WT scholars let for average JW to see. Reasons for that can be many, on behalf/side of WT and every member of course. 

Some ex-JW lamentate on YT how WT do not gave them to celebrate Christmas, birthdays. To me such things are not of crucial importance. But is example of slavery for members. It seems more important to me to let ourselves permission to freely investigate, search and listen pro et contra facts and opinion. I was reading some of your thoughts and found it very new to me and important.  

Thanks!            

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

like good counsel

Hi Tom! I was born in Zagreb and living here. 

Prison is not hard, but prisoners :)))))

Counsel from late brother Miloš Knežević was because not to bring problems to society in YU, so from other perspective we can talk now how WTorg was/is ready, determined to instruct rank and file members in that way to protect corporation, and to put all responsibility on "personal decision"  which, whose are product, not primarily in members clear perception and understanding that came from his inside, from that person,  and by that  is his/her unique and only one possible choice made on foundation of conscience.

Such or similar decisions in JW world, are made on "bible trained conscience" as product of doctrines and instructions of society. Not because I or you or anyone else come to such conclusion by inspired revelation inside our mind in one crucial and inimitable moment  of life. I can agree on religious, pacifists, humanitarian or philosophic reasons to not to go to war. JW are not unique in refusing military service as they claim (preaching service too) Members of Adventist church and Nazarian church was with me in the same prison also. And they do that also from the same main reason as JW, because members doing that what they have to do as members. 

Religious people as JW, have two sort of conscience. One is Natural, God given sense, from birth. Second sort of conscience is "trained" by WT org, by bible, by society, by tribe, family, books .... So, as one person growing, he/she forming mix of rules what is acceptable and what is not. Sometimes first and main natural sense can not go on daylight because of learned, trained, instructed, artificial conscience. And that artificial conscience is on work when they do not want to say hello to ex members. How i know that? I looked into the face of such person and  see amalgam of pride, hidden shame, stubbornness, guilty, fear of men, fanaticism. 

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