Srecko Sostar

13 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It matters little what is said - what matters is who says it.

Yes Tom and in this issue you exercise this method on me. I gave you real example supported with evidence. But no, you turn, spin that and told that it is not matter because i said that :))))

In fact WT said incorrect "story" in Reasoning book and left impression on readers how this conclusion about stake is done by "worldly" writer.  Who have salts in head will see.  

Next thing. Cross or torture stake, both looks paganic, and have source in pagan customs and symbolism. Both looks like penis. So if you think you win it is far from that. Religious people who advocates this or that version must first accept main thing about symbols and objects inside customs and traditions they have in own religion - to not worship nothing and nobody but God. So, you as JW not worship cross, but in the same time members and  Society using also idolatry symbols that must not have been, originated in old pagan religion. But WT creating own modern paganism started with watchtower drawing (picture) on magazines and memos, flags with JWorg logo and others. Not to mentioned rejected crown and cross in the beginning published magazines.  So please why giving lessons to others while in same time doing the same blasphemy?      

9 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

note that Srecko did acknowledge his error. Not so great was still trying to spin it into a negative right after...

"after we make you you safe you will be saved"

Thanks Hear. In this example i show simply and plain that hearer of somebody talk can interpret his words as he, the listener understand it. And that understanding or interpretation must not be wrong in my case, as you suggest (if i understand you correctly ). In fact all message about apostate and internet give me conclusion that i am rightly interpreting all elements of his speech, talk on TV and that is - context, words, meaning, message, nonverbal speech,  gestures, mimics, facial expressions, tone of voice and word choice. 

I am stupid, but not too much :)))))))))      

6 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of it's literal (intended) meaning

Using written and spoken words is not always easy to express one's thoughts. Not even between people who speak the same language. In the lexicon of each nation there are synonyms and antonyms. There are single and multiple words. There are metaphors and metonymy. There are homonyms, homographs and homophones. And much more.

In order for the two speakers ( interlocutors) to be able to understand one another, much has to be in common when using the same language. Both must know exactly how to convey the thought. Both must know one meaning or more meaning of the same word and how to use it in particular kontext. Both must know how to understand the thought. And the thought behind the word. Both must know why there is a misunderstanding and how to resolve the misunderstanding. The problem of interpretation of what is written or pronounced certainly exists in mutual communication.

 One example of this is WT's practice of turning the blame on the 1975 teachings and interpretation on the followers. A similar thing happens with some other instructions. Not only with so called "prophecies", or GB wishes that their interpretation on Bible text looks like "prophecies", thinking (process of thinking) which should to be advanced and sees things that will just happen (around the corner :)))). 

6 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

intellectual dishonesty was used to support

I will continue on "dishonesty" with this example, and there is much more. Everyone knows how starting the topic of "the cross" in the Reasoning book. I will copy/paste  this part from Reasoning book; 

Reasoning from the Scriptures, page 89, Cross, JWorg library;

The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·rosʹ], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux(from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.

BUT GO TO ORIGINAL TEXT and see dropped text. WT put dots (...) instead text.

The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·rosʹ], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek speaking countries.

Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole and this always reminded the more prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment a transverse piece of wood was commonly added; not, however, always even than..... The following text continues, describing the types of crosses and the ways in which the convicts were murdered...,others extending their arms on a patibulum. There can be no doubt, however, that the latter sort was the more common and that about the period of the gospel age crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood. But this does not itself determine the precise form of the cross; .... The following text continues by describing 3 types of crosses.  —Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

People change their minds. There is no shame in saying that.

But if you carry on that the only reason you could have reversed a decision you made is that you were brainwashed - surely that is pathetic.

I agree, there is no shame to change minds. I show you that i feel no shame for my change  

Only reason? No. :))))))

Every of us can be brainwashed (deceived - in this religion matter)  and claim how that it is not case with him, and not able to see that in fact it is the case :))))))) Will lunatic ever confess that he is crazy? ahahahaha

12 hours ago, Stephen D. Robinson said:

"Should I join a religion that

I am just giving my thoughts about how I view anyone ..

BOTTOM LINE: APOSTATES ARE JUST PLAIN STUPID.

Thanks for sharing your feelings. Yes, Feelings, not Thoughts, because, dear ex brother, i can see that from your copy/paste method of text that is not your deep thoughts. You just expressed your strong feelings, nothing more.

Thanks for calling people like me stupid.  I will give/turn to you my other cheek too, so you can slap me once again :))))))     

For me is more important to do this, "come out", than to join some religion....4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues.

Come out ... He said, not - Go in ...

51 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

apostate/s

Definition of apostate

:one who commits apostasy

Definition of apostasy

plural apostasies

1:an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith

2:abandonment of a previous loyalty :defection

Yes Esther, i was done that after 40 years in JW church :)) and because that i have more informations and more insight. An that have nothing with a claim or assumption about my time.:) 

1. To Society Watch Tower, Watchtower and corporations

2. To Jehovah's Witnesses and all assemblies

3. To all whom this concern

Declaration on termination of membership to a religious community of Jehovah's Witnesses

            I was baptized in 1977 at the age of 17, then a minor. But, in good faith I answered the following two questions just before baptism, which is symbolized my dedication to God in terms of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses religion.

At that time (before the change of June 1 1985) questions have read as follows;

A)    Have you repented of your sins and converted, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?

B)     On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?

            Since I have over decades closely followed the changes in various aspects of activity of this religion, I noticed some frequent collisions (1 John 4:1; 1 Th 5:21). It is visible in: a) the content of the various interpretations; b) in the theory and practice of action in everyday life issues. Overview of many historical aspects of the spiritual heritage, which the organization has, since its inception in the 19th century, left to its members-followers, and wants to cover it up, revise and incorrect display, is astounding. Who wants to drink a water from a cup in which there is a single drop of dangerous substances?

            The purpose of my statement is not to explain doctrine and practices of society and the board of directors, who are disturbed my conscience and reasoning within the love, faith, knowledge and understanding that I feel and I have to God and Jesus Christ and to the people, so I will taxatively single out only a few of them (Rom 14:4). These are obvious example, on the one hand, theological acrobatics from the main church body of Jehovah's Witnesses, and on the other hand, their dishonesty and practice in which one they are learns, and other they are works;

1) Confusing conceptions about their own identity (Who shared spiritual food? One servant, all 144 000, a composite body or the governing body ...,)

2) Pragmatism in changing dogmatic interpretations before the change was "firmly biblical established", such as a series of explanations about the "generation" ...,

3) Speculation about the meaning of biblical statements and how they should be understood. More than once the revised interpretation were in style of YES-NO-YES-NO; then this year's "changed approach to the interpretation of reports from the Word of God" ...,

4) Switching of responsibility from the governing body and their representatives on the ordinary believers in respect of the decisions and attitudes that members should be carried out, when it becomes apparent that they were endangered spiritually, mentally and literally health of fellow believers  (eg, multiple expectations of Armageddon, Malawi and Mexico of the 1970s, questions about blood, juvenile members / Bulgaria /, neutrality ...,)

5) Co-operation and association with political organizations such as the UN and the OSCE.

6) Increasingly open calls for financial donations and contributions to the funds of the corporation.

7) Careless and unkind treatment of victims of pedophilia within the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses

            Regardless of how, as collective or personal, members of the Jehovah's Witnesses will treat me after this letter of resignation, considering the worldwide-known practice of ignoring and avoiding (shunning) that Jehovah's Witnesses apply to all who are outside of their religion ("worldly" people, dissociated and disfellowshipped) - I with fully conscious and reason declare still this; My relationship with the people / persons in the Jehovah's Witness religion and those who are not, is based on the words of Jesus; "Love your neighbor as yourself"; "Love those who hate you"; "Whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them."

I expecting from you, that any kind of information which is stored anywhere, in connection with me and has my full name, such as personal files, or any other files you immediately destroy!

Zagreb, July 27/2015                                          Srećko Šoštar -------------

                                   Verified by notary public

1 hour ago, Stephen D. Robinson said:

There is a huge difference between respectful submission and active support.

:))))))) i do not not how to comment this right now.

financial involvements in hedge funds and other funds, 

https://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?CIK=0001407041&action=getcompany

Schedule 6: Detailed financial information — Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Canada 

https://www.canada.ca/en.html

Rand Cam Engine Corp. is a privately held company whose stock is reportedly owned 50% by The Watchtower Society, a religious organization, 34% by James McCann and the balance by several other shareholders. Mr. McCann has indicated that he donated the shares held by The Watchtower Society to that organization but has retained a voting proxy for those shares.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/922330/000106299302000371/form10k.txt

OSCE 2015 (NGO No. 21,168,169,318)

https://www.osce.org/odihr/190676?download=true

OSCE 2016 (NGO No. 15, 146,147,286)

https://www.osce.org/odihr/274356?download=true

OSCE 2010 (NGO 2010 No 2,28)

http://www.osce.org/odihr/75756?download=true

OSCE 2009 (NGO No. 2,6,42,79)

If you interested search alone

http://www.osce.org/gsearch?qr=jehovah's witnesses participant 

14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

it doesn't say, "you will be saved."

thanks for show me err. ok safe :)))) after we make you you safe you will be saved :))))) end is the same, isn't ? ahahahah 

http://www.osce.org/odihr/107277?download=true

just one example from JW involving in OSCE conferences (NO 17 and 146 on page 42, 57) look with what other various NGO groups they chat. This is Warsaw conference in 2014. But list go up and down in time. 

Read this below carefully also and see how WT share the same principles as UN Charter, WT hypocrites.  

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

So someone raised in the truth doesn't really need to waste years of searching.

Glad to hear your experience, but i will quote your big brother A. Morris III who all this what you told us say in one nonsense statement: "Stick with what we have authorised and you will be saved."

Must i remind you or readers of WT how GB also said:

"We need to obey FDS..."

"WE need to obey any instruction...."

"We are not inspired, we can err in instructional and doctrinal matters ...."   

But anyway ----- "Stick with what we have authorised and you will be saved."

That make me sadly laughing :))))) 

On 10/5/2017 at 16:00, TrueTomHarley said:

"Someone said ......" to the end of comment

I can see Tom your hard working in thinking. You have battle inside you, and that is good. I also see that you still looking at all this through black/white lenses and that is not good.

You mentioned "Witness" and "separated college students" = brainwashed. After reading your text, my conclusion would be that all are brainwashed no matter are they 24/7 or 2/2. You are sure how students are deceived because mount of hours in class, but i will say that WT education program is much effective because they have same result (brainwashed) with only 4 hours a week :))))))))))))))     

"Human agency" aka WT has hidden things, some of them we talk about. "Shepherd  the Flock"  or "Preparing for child custody cases" books are one of them. 

"How could anybody be so stupid? No", you said. People must not to be stupid, but deceiver must be much more clever while making people stupid. :))))))) Deceiver must gain trust from the victim, and one of method is to tell some truth and some half truth, after that false truth will take place.  

you quote: "the 'world will chew you up and spit you out". With power of clever-stupid explanations GB chew up and spit out many Bethelites and pioneers after many years of "faithful service", because economic issue aka - money the god-. Issue of money and power, control over people are always main reason, not "adjustments" to the Truth. In WT terminology, "Adjustments" are made for the goal of hold and gain control over masses of followers.     

Hehe, Violations of Human Rights is when WT JWorg and their representatives forbid  JW members to exercise their Personal Human Rights and talk, or make social contacts on all levels or to sit and eat and drink if wish, or even say simple "hello" on the street to ex-member. This WT command are with the threat of excommunication, disfellowshiping. If that not be with such extreme consequences many JW members will communicate with ex members. And many of them doing that. I am ex member of JW church and on my glad surprise more JW members find that is all right to speak with me. They "disobey"  WT interpretation on canonic text  but obey their god given Natural conscience instead Artificial "bible learned conscience" that is imposed and runned by WT Corporation.

And as Court say, "their interpretation of canonical text, and we are not free to reinterpret that text. . . ."

Perhaps Court (because of wisdom, ahaha) do not want to involve themselves in endless reasoning about what some bible text mean and how is to be understand. But all other people who want to tell something are Free to tell and comment.  

5 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

Best wishes and greetings from Germany,  Agape !

Same to you from Zagreb!  

4 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

History reports on and of had mistakes

Hi Esther! It looks like you misunderstand something, when you dropped first word in my sentence - "Bible history reports...". Well as you can see, if you put little more attention  , i specifically thinked on history reports that are placed in Bible, not in so called "worldly" history, which you obviously consider problematical. I agree that "history" can be questionable from our time looking, because "history are written by  winners", they say.

I would like to say and little more about Bible. As you aware, many translations of Bible existing. Even WT changed several times own translations of NWT. With very important changes. When i said "important" i don't mean by that how all of those  modifications, corrections and remodeling are in positive direction, but opposite. For sincere believers those transitions on Bible content (includes whole passages of text, words, letters and even comas) can bring that person to put himself in position (extremely sometimes, but very possible) to worship god in wrong, false way without knowing that.

Average person or average JW member have not enough time, nor will to test, examine what brings to him when WT catechist and scholars decide to intervene in Bible text.            

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Looking back, I'd have to say

Thank you  .  Finally the voice of reason, honesty, sincerity and accurate information/knowledge about what The Corporation was done/is doing is heard.

32 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The rules are ....

You are funny. Maybe kids would believe this. Not me :))))

5 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is only a corporation because the laws of this world will not let you operate otherwise.

:)))))))))))))) none of us must not be too much educated in management and business and trade law and take such explanation as true.

In Mexico, in one period of time JW was registered as Cultural Society and can operate in the country with real estate that was stayed in WT property. On June 10, 1943, application was made to the Secretariat of Foreign Affairs to register La Torre del Vigía as a civil society, and this was approved on June 15, 1943. This meant that the brothers can no longer sing, pray and use the Bible in their "cultural" meetings. This way they sacrificed the worship of Jehovah, singing praises to him and using the Bible because owning their property and assets was much more important than praying, singing & using the Bible.  - Please don't disinform people with wrongly idea.  

"In 1989, with the approval of the Governing Body, a letter was written to all the “companies” saying that as of April 1, we would be operating in Mexico as a religious organization."  yb95 page  233 Mexico   

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Even the 'apostles and old men' of the first century would have organized themselves as a corporation if that were a necessity to legally operate.

What Bible said that ???? :))))))

10 minutes ago, Witness said:

yet, as we know, is no longer owned by the congregation.  

Hi! Every KH , real estate, is/are in possession by WT corporation. In some part of world, countries, in specific time period, as here in Croatia or ex Yugoslavia as you wish, in period of communist political era, when private property was limited in some elements, many KH was on private names of JW members. After fall of communism in E Europe, status for JW church has changed and in time all existing KH are transferred in the hand of WT corporation.   

10 minutes ago, Witness said:

A "collection plate" can come in all forms

very witty saying

16 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

For  @Srecko Sostar ....

MEANS....   We  NEVER  can  loyal  worship  2 GOD' S !!      Either  JEHOVAH   or   SATAN....  understand ?

Bible history reports gives otherwise, different facts ... understand?   Description that is given in such reports assure readers that Israel people believed very sincerely that they worship one true god, but in fact they worship 2 or more god's.  So never say never :))))) 

18 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

No not me. Are you thinking of @Srecko Sostar who said:

"i am just "mule" who stubbornly stops on the road  and speak :))))))))) find the parable if you can, hehehe "

if you are a donkey or a mule (like me :)))))))))))), you can say what you want and how you want, no one will blame you! True? ahahhaaha

17 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

I grew up in the Truth.

Thanks for respond. I knew also few interesting and difficult experiences about JW families, parents, children, and mutual relations after one or few family member stop to go in hall or to believe in WT doctrines (dogmas is better word). Some parents, even single parents trow child out of house (because elders pressure them  to do so) even child is minor and have problems in many ways.

My very critical thoughts and language i used sometimes while commenting on this forum is product of knowing other side of JWorg medal, (dark side of "spiritual paradise") stories that is under curtain of family life, that is not seen, spoke publicly in KH Sunday meetings. Interactions when elder of congregations are so eager and zealous to help, because of high level of self righteous and spirituality :)))) and he is not just young or inexperienced person, in fact one of first elders not only in  congregation but in whole country, appointed to come from different place and country, before many many years. His helping to that family and children, ended in the way that this minor kid cuted her veins. Lucky for her not with deadly end. But this kid is so terrible ruined in psyche in emotion, soul. Everything has started with rebuke and  disapproval from elders side when one summer, father of that few kids (who is ex-JW) called his minor kids to spend some time at holidays. And kids done that (with knowledge of mother who is JW) Ohhh what great sin they done :))))))) or :(((((((       

Mixing OT and NT counsels with WT interpretations on bible text, how parents need to teach, counsel, discipline their children is/are very problematic, uninspired with too much error. If whole bible is inspired and serve as role model than it is little tricky to use some Old Testament "principles" (what is principles??? which principles???) in some bible verses or examples, constructing  type-anytype model??? or more, then pick some verses from NT verses and applicate all that amalgam into today time and people. You have, as result people inside JWorg who feel that they will never reach such goal, always feel guilty because that, pushed to do more and more in this or that "christian" activity. You have more than half of congregational population who are lost, lost between normal, genuine, god's given Natural conscience on one side and Artificial "bible trained conscience" regulated and imposed by WTJWorg.       

If we take in consideration WTJWorg custom (and encouraging young ones inside org) to accept decisions from 5-15 year old kids to be baptised and by that become part of organization about what they know nothing, then kids are capable to make decision on every life matter- driving licence, married, job, school. Because by WT way of thinking - to get baptised is the most important decision in Life that every person can make. All other decisions in life are less important if are important at all in comparison to this one - be baptised as JW.

Some kids can show more maturity than some adults about something, and today's time is different than before past years. Children "swallowing" more and more info than generation before so they "know" many things, even more than adults in some things. Older are to confident that they "know" enough. All in all we all making "informative" decisions. :)))

47 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

little more thought to what you are trying to express.

hehe, ok, but do you not understand nothing or some parts? What logic is not understandable ?  Perhaps one part of problem is sentence grammar logic in my language that is not same in english. Thanks for your try