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Srecko Sostar

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  1. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    Out of topic, but just for fun. Revelation is very symbolic book. 1000 years can be also 24 human hours and can be millions of human years too. 
     
    This two quote contradict itself. Question is: Why WT Lawyers not waiting for God's Justice ... in the future?
    From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.
    This is what  @Anna said, not me. :))
  2. Haha
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Arauna in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    It may seem like a double standard but it is not.  In our congregations we do not call our elders "father"  leader or such other titles /designations the clergy have traditionally called themselves.... we do not..... BUT we do confide in the elders and in this they have a similar FUNCTion regarding confessions - which the law is about.  So by their function, not title, they qualify as clergy under secular law.
    Anna - this is not a comment on your comment. Just a general thought.
  3. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in NEW DOCUMENTARY EXAMINES ALLEGED CHILD SEX ABUSE WITHIN JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES   
    Article in People Magazine:
    https://people.com/crime/jehovas-witnesses-alleged-sex-abuse-oxygen-documentary/?fbclid=IwAR3DWbOD6ihak4wOe7rtv0GIkNfppgH0MlGs56RtjpSE_kdXHcqB4xS6J-o
     
  4. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Anna in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    Well no, that is not my personal opinion. That is the opinion of the Christian Congregation. How else could they claim clergy privilege unless they applied the worldly definition (legal definition) to the elders?
  5. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    No problem, don't worry, I understand you. We just comment Montana situation :))
  6. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    From a worldly point of view the elders are clergy. From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.
    Than, result is the same: JW elders are clergy, priesthood.
    However, outside of a worldly situation (meaning a worldly situation like a court setting) a member of the Christian congregation will not view the elders as clergy, because they are not applying the worldly point of view.
    Is it doing bad to children (or CSA)?:
    -worldly situation or
    -situation inside JW congregation or
    -worldly situation inside JW situation who operate inside worldly system situation?  
    Where, to Whom Courts belong? To worldly situation only? To satan, because he is god of this World?
    Courts belongs in Bible situation. They are God's Servants, and not devil's Servants (your Bible said so, your interpretation of Romans said so too). Bible situation says how all people (Christian congregants too)  belong to Secular Authorities who making decisions who is who. In Montana situation JW elders prayed, asked Court to give them distinctive title - clergy, priesthood. Obviously they asked Court to give them something that God "failed" to give it to them.  :)))
     
  7. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to 4Jah2me in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    I'm English not American and I try to be no part of that world. Congress means nothing to me.... The Charity Commission did an investigation here in UK and the IICSA will be doing a deeper investigation as well.
    https://www.iicsa.org.uk/investigation/child-protection-religious-organisations-and-settings
    Next Steps:
    A preliminary hearing took place at 2pm on 23 July 2019 and a further preliminary hearing will be held at 10:30am on 14 January 2020. Two weeks of public hearings will begin on 16 March 2020.
    The Inquiry is encouraging all victims and survivors of child sexual abuse to share their experience via our Truth Project.
  8. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to 4Jah2me in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Update from IICSA today 14th January 2020 
    https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/17283/view/preliminary-hearing-transcript-14-jan-2020.pdf
    It's UK of course so may not be of interest to most of you. 
    I've just read the full 70 pages and it looks like a whitewash.
     
  9. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to 4Jah2me in Haiti Ten Years Later—Is Nothing Fixed?   
    @TrueTomHarley  " It’s called updating. People have done this since the beginning of time. The printing presses they use didn’t even fit in the NYC buildings, they became so large. "
    Septuagint bible w/ Apocrypha     Ecclesiastes 12:12 (LXX) And moreover, my son, guard thyself by means of them: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
    The Message Bible  Ecclesiastes 12:12 (MSG) But regarding anything beyond this, dear friend, go easy. There's no end to the publishing of books, and constant study wears you out so you're no good for anything else.
    So why would your GB want to be spending so much money on new buildings and new equipment, if 'THE END' IS SO CLOSE NOW ?
    Surely all that money could have been put into preaching the Good News Earthwide. After all, surely bringing in more people and getting them baptised is the priority ?  Your GB is telling the world that no one will be saved unless they are a baptised JW. But they used the brothers and sisters to do the building, when they could have been preaching, and they used the money for the buildings when it could have been used better in the earthwide preaching work, and possibly to help those bros & sis that need extra support financially to survive. But no, your GB chose to build it's 'Tower to the sky', just to show off its wealth. 
  10. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    How came to that, that they just found themselves to be in this opportunity?
    This formulation say how they had no "qualifications", but JUST had been GIVING opportunity to direct.
    Who gave them (GB) this opportunity from 1971 on ? WT Society Administration? Or God? Or mutual effort of human and spirit (similar to what was described in Acts, ..."we and holy spirit decided to ....") ?    
  11. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    Very good response from long term JW member. And very dissonante response!! 
    From now on, because JW members obey secular laws (and because of agreements that WT Society and Courts made) in everything that not oppose to God's law, have to consider how to accept new terminology and to explain in publications and in field service when people ask about hierarchy inside Organization. 
    It will be very interesting to see what would be reaction of new interested persons when congregants tell them, how JW Church elders are clergy only in Court cases against them, but in everyday life all are brothers. :))
    WT Society giving few claims, few interpretations  about one standard: God is above all
    1) obey God's commandments
    2) obey secular law
    3) obey God's commandments above secular law
    4) obey secular law in everything that not contradict and opposing to God's commandments
    5) obey Secular authority and God's authority when they work together and making compromise
    I am very interested to see how and when  this "new clarification" (in your's or some other formulation) will see daylight in WT publications and on JW meetings. :))
     
     
  12. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    Supreme Court of Montana - Reversal, January 8 2020
    I chose few paragraphs, and some accentuation.
    The parties agree that elders are “clergy” under Montana law.
    Relevant here, § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA, provides: “A member of the clergy or a priest is not required to make a report under this section if the communication is required to be confidential by canon law, church doctrine, or established church practice.” ¶12 Jehovah’s Witnesses contend they are excepted from the general mandatory reporting statute pursuant to § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA.
    ¶30 Jehovah’s Witnesses point out that imposing a narrow definition of confidentiality impermissibly could discriminate between different religious beliefs and practices, protecting confidentiality of reports made in a confession from a parishioner to priest, like the traditional Catholic practice, while offering no protection to a congregant’s disclosures to a committee of elders using a process like that followed by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. “It is the duty of courts, if possible, to construe statutes in a manner that avoids unconstitutional interpretation.” State v. Mathis, 2003 MT 112, ¶ 8, 315 Mont. 378, 68 P.3d 756 (citation omitted)
    ¶33 We hold accordingly that the undisputed material facts in the summary judgment record demonstrate as a matter of law that Jehovah’s Witnesses were not mandatory reporters under § 41-3-201, MCA, in this case because their church doctrine, canon, or practice required that clergy keep reports of child abuse confidential, thus entitling the Defendants to the exception of § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA
    We can reverse now something else: Did WT Society and all included in spreading "spiritual truths and doctrines" lied to general public and JW members by claiming how JW congregations have not clergy, priesthood class and how elders in congregations are not clergy, priesthood?
  13. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Haiti Ten Years Later—Is Nothing Fixed?   
    For you, this is a “sign and wonder” that the organization is blessed by God.
    I presented another religion with a very competitive track record of charity works, that easily squelches your statement, and you’re taking offense. 
    The GB had a home but decided they needed a better one.  With JW donations and volunteer work, it was accomplished.  No one, who labored in this effort either monetarily or physically ,was reimbursed one dime. 
    The same people who helped finance the GB’s new home, pay monthly into their house insurance that is available when disaster may cause the loss of their home. This is on top of paying their mortgage, which guarantees they keep their home.  The GB doesn't pay into house insurance and they are not responsible to pay a mortgage. Watchtower, in all pomp, rallies forth volunteers, and sweeps in to restore someone's home if lost during a disaster.  Yet, also expects the insurance check when it is finished. 
     Who's making out in both situations?   Whose ahead in both scenarios?  The Watchtower.
    This is robbery at its worst.  You can’t see it, but you can smell it, and it stinks. Srecko called it when using 2 Cor 11:14
     
    Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.  6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.  James 5:1-6
     
     
     
  14. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Haiti Ten Years Later—Is Nothing Fixed?   
    Do you know that many of these "members" are asked to turn over their insurance check to the organization?  
    The Adventist Development and Relief Agency (ADRA) is the global humanitarian organization of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Through an international network, ADRA delivers relief and development assistance to individuals in more than 130 countries—regardless of their ethnicity, political affiliation, or religious association. By partnering with communities, organizations, and governments, ADRA is able to improve the quality of life of millions through 9 impact areas. https://adra.org/
    Really, I don't know why you are tooting your own horn.  It's as if you desperately need to find something outstanding and  marvelous about the organization, to raise your hands in praise for "Jehovah's organization".  Rev 13:4  Turn around and look at its dark side.  2 Cor 6:14
    Give praise to God and Christ only, not to earthly treasures that do not deliver salvation.  Matt 6:19,20; Dan 3:16-18; Rev 13:4
  15. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Haiti Ten Years Later—Is Nothing Fixed?   
    You didn't read all that it said about the American Red Cross, did you.
    But the charity has come under severe criticism of late from media organizations and a congressional report, the findings of which suggest that the Red Cross is less than efficient in its disaster relief work and spends as much as a quarter of its contributions on overhead, administration, and fundraising. The Red Cross has responded to these criticisms with answers that sound reasonable, but more and more people are directing their donations elsewhere.
    I linked the article to give you a view of other religions and what they are doing in charity works.  Somehow that escaped your notice, or purposefully ignored it,  but it was the first thing addressed in the article.  
    Read the article before you say I am lying. 
    The Adventist Development and Relief Agency International (ADRA or ADRA International) is a humanitarian agency operated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church for the purpose of providing individual and community development and disaster relief. It was founded in 1956, and it is headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland, United States of America.
    In 2004, ADRA reported assisting nearly 24 million people with more than US$159 million in aid. Its staff numbered over 4,000 members.[1] As of the end of 2007, it had operations in 125 countries [2] According to Forbes, in 2005, ADRA ranked among America's 200 largest charities.   Wikipedia
     
  16. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Haiti Ten Years Later—Is Nothing Fixed?   
    No, I get the point.  But, perhaps you need to compare apples to apples - a religion in the world, compared to other religions in the world.  https://thehumanist.com/commentary/disaster-relief-can-humanism-fill-gap
    Whatever "signs and wonders" that the organization is able succeed at, does not verify it belongs to God.  
    For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.  Matt 24:24
    The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.  2 Thess 2:9-12
  17. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to 4Jah2me in Haiti Ten Years Later—Is Nothing Fixed?   
    How you try to deceive.  You know why people don't help each other. You know why the world is as it is. You know who the governments belong to, (and even the 'charities' belong to)... Satan offered them to Jesus and Jesus did not say that they didn't belong to Satan. 
    Once again you are comparing the GB and JWs to 'the world', that 'wicked world of mankind'. Because you dare not compare the GB and JWs to God's standards, as your GB and most JWs fall far short. 
    You really must lack faith if you need to compare your GB and the Org to the devil's wicked world. 
  18. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Haiti Ten Years Later—Is Nothing Fixed?   
    Thank you Srecko.  It needed to be said.
    “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back."  Luke 6:32-34
    It leaves no doubt in my mind that those "brothers" fully gave back through all aspects of their life, to the organization. Matt 6:24
  19. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    These are two thoughts, not well connected.   
    Anointed ones were initially drawn together BEFORE the organization was established.  It was under this premise, that they gathered:
    "Beware of "organization." It is wholly un-necessary. The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1895, p. 216.) 
    "In view of these facts and also of the nature of the harvest work, and the addition. In fact that each one so gathered is expected to enter into the harvest work as a reaper, and will do so to the extent of his ability and opportunity, it is plain that the forming of a visible organization of such gathered out ones would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan; and, it done, would seem to indicate on the part of the Church a desire to conform to the now popular idea of organization or confederacy. (See Isa. 8:12.) ... While, therefore, we do not esteem a visible organization of the gathered ones to be a part of the Lord's plan in the harvest work, as though we expected as an organization to abide here for another age, we do esteem it to be his will that those that love the Lord should speak often one to another of their common hopes and joys, or trials and perplexities, communing together concerning the precious things of his Word, and so help one another, and not forget the assembling of themselves together as the manner of some is; and so much the more as they see the day approaching. -- Mal. 3: 16; Heb. 10:25." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1894, p. 384.)
    "There is no organization today clothed with such divine authority to imperiously command mankind. There is no organization doing this today; though we are well aware that many of them in theory claim that they ought to be permitted to do so; and many more would like to do so. This was the fatal mistake into which the Church began to fall in the second century; and the effort to realize this false conception culminated in the boastful, imperious counterfeiting of the coming Kingdom in Papacy, which for centuries sought to dominate the world, by claimed "divine authority". This idea more or less pervaded and poisoned the ideas of all the Protestant "clergy" as well; who copying Papacy's false ideas of the Church, claim also that the Church of Christ is now organized, though they now make less boastful claims to "divine authority" to teach and rule mankind in general, that the Papacy does." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1893, page 266.)
    From, http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/russells-opinion-on-organizations.html 
    All of this truth, has dissolved over time; and the organization today at its peak of corruption, shows evidence of its peak as a lie, against God’s anointed, spiritual “organization” under Christ.  Rev 13: 1,2,5-9; 16:13-15
    As time has gone by, this priesthood of God has been consumed by a tally of millions who have joined what is now, a necessary “evil”.  There is nothing wrong with people gathered with anointed ones. It is happening on the other side of the WT fence, never to be organized by man’s will.  What is wrong with WT, is the GB’s dismissal of God’s priests gradually, over the spanning years of the organization's development.
    Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions.   Wt 02/8/1
     This necessary evil requires a priesthood of its own, where its priests answer to their “High Priest”, the GB.  False christs.  Matt 24:24 Thus, they have "ordained" a priesthood for their own.   True anointed have written on their hearts, the laws of God through the outpouring of Holy Spirit. Heb 8:10 God wouldn’t do this if He didn’t expect His servants to teach the people, as priests have always been admonished to do.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9 
     Except for a minority of elders who truly try to “love your neighbor as yourself”, the majority of elders are “heartless” to this guidance Jesus has taught us. Isa 3:12; Ezek 34; Rev 9:9,10; Joel 2:2-9  Those elders who make the effort to obey Christ’s law of love, in most cases leave, or just give up and answer to "lawlessness".
    So, the elder body can play the role of a clergy class at its whim in the court systems, when it is advantageous for the organization. Other times, it uses the excuse that all men are imperfect and make mistakes.  As I have said, if the organization belonged to God, only His authentic priests would lead as shepherds.  What would guide them in all cases, would be the "written letter" fulfilled in Christ, and inscribed on their hearts.  2 Cor 3:3
    All the excuses made in defense of the organization’s need to fight for its rights in court, mean nothing to God or Christ. It is no different than what other organizations in the world of Satan face.  If Christ said, "my kingdom is not part of this world", (John 18:36)  a JW should ask, why do men make it so?   God's priesthood/Temple has been rejected and trampled, for the sustaining benefit of an idol  (1 Cor 3:16,17)  Matt 24:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3; Ezek 44:6-9
    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matt 7:21-23
    What has developed over time since its inception, is a devouring monster.  Rev 13:1,2,10,11,12,15
  20. Like
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Witness in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    I believe how money can't REPAIR the Trauma.
    Money can do other things, other sorts of help for victim.  
  21. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    I believe how money can't REPAIR the Trauma.
    Money can do other things, other sorts of help for victim.  
  22. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Haiti Ten Years Later—Is Nothing Fixed?   
    I am glad that someone helping people in need. But, because of your unappropriate way of how involving our names here, i will give you back (you ask for this) in this way: That doesn’t surprise us, for even Satan transforms himself to appear as an angel of light! - 2.Cor.11
     
  23. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to 4Jah2me in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    Well at least the plaintiff could be miserable in luxury  ..  But I agree with you that millions of $$$ in payouts are too high. So who is it that decides on the amount ? Because as you seem to be saying, it disputes the genuineness of the claim.  But is there ever an apology on behalf of the Watchtower / JW Org ? 
    One other point of course is, would a qualified lawyer be prepared to fight a case for a Victim if there was no financial reward for the lawyer. Lawyers are part of the devil's world, and money seems to be what drives them. You cannot expect an experienced lawyer to work for no pay. And it needs very experienced lawyers to fight the GB and their lawyers, because the GB's lawyers play dirty.  
    Also, you cannot expect the devil's world to work toward preventing child sexual abuse can you ?  Its kinda funny how @Arauna follows 'world conditions' and uses them as signs of the times, whereas you seem to be expecting signs of improvement to worldly moral standards. But you know things will get worse not better. This is why JW Org should be compared to God's high standards, not compared to the devil's world. It would be too easy to say JW Org is better than the devil's world, but it would prove nothing. 
    ========================================================
    New comment. 
    @the Sower of Seed  Said :  A person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do?
    @Arauna   said : He was giving an example.... so what are u getting åt? 
    Members of the Governing Body, it seems, were Homosexual.  It also seems, if information is correct, that a member of Bethel was sexually assaulted by such a one.  There have been other reports on here, of immoral behavior at Bethel.
    Those GB members would have contributed to Watchtower articles. Also it gives reason to believe that the Writing department personnel might not be exactly worthy of producing information on God;s behalf.  With 'pillowgate' and other examples it does not look good for the GB / Org / Bethel in USA. 
    Unfortunately i don't keep all the info i read on this forum, and those that have given info' might not wish to confirm the info they originally gave, so I only have the remnants of the knowledge in my head.  But the information I have read on here was obviously given voluntarily by those that had worked / possibly do work at Bethel, so there is no reason for me to disbelieve it.  
  24. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?   
    Just the fact that child abuse exists in an organization that declares it is inspired by Holy Spirit – “spirit-directed” -  is evil. (Rev 13:15)  For any JW leaders and members as well, who believe this outcome as beneficial - "good" -  toward upholding the governmental procedures of “God’s organization”,  is also evil. 
    Woe to those who call evil good
    and good evil,
    who substitute darkness for light
    and light for darkness,
    who substitute bitter for sweet
    and sweet for bitter.
    21 Woe to those who are wise in their own opinion
    and clever in their own sight.
    22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine,
    who are fearless at mixing beer,
    23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe
    and deprive the innocent of justice.
    24 Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes straw
    and as dry grass shrivels in the flame,
    so their roots will become like something rotten
    and their blossoms will blow away like dust,
    for they have rejected
    the instruction of the Lord of Hosts,
    and they have despised
    the word of the Holy One of Israel.  Isa 5:20-24
  25. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in 1914   
    Right, so maybe they mean that with God's help, Christ's battle tactic from heaven, is to situate garrisons all over the earth? (1 Cor 15:25)  
    What an impudent statement the man made in the video!
    It reminds me of this guy:
    The devil took him to a high place and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in an instant. 6 The devil said to him, “I will give you all the power and glory of these kingdoms. All of it has been given to me, and I give it to anyone I please. 7 So if you will worship me, all this will be yours.”  Luke 4:5-7
     
    "The God who made the world and everything in it—He is Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in shrines made by hands. 25 Neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives everyone life and breath and all things. 26 From one man He has made every nationality to live over the whole earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live. 27 He did this so they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 For in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Being God’s offspring then, we shouldn’t think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image fashioned by human art and imagination.  Acts 17:24-29
    http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-kingdom-when.html 

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