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DefenderOTT

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  1. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to Anna in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    When you put conjecture in print, and then distribute it to thousands of people, who are eagerly looking for a "sign" and then expect them not to get excited, and not talk about it....it is too late!
    Plus, it is very likely that those who put this conjecture in print in the first place, believed it was true.
  2. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to Srecko Sostar in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    I have read somewhere in publications how dfd family member can come to meeting in the same car with rest of the family, but he/she can not seat with them in KH, but separate in some other corner of hall, not in the same seats as rest of family. Then when meeting is over he/she can seat in the same car to go back to home.
    Imagine how this sound and look so bizarre and unnatural and crazy rule to obey :))))
  3. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to Srecko Sostar in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Many "illustrations" as in this fictive (or real?) drama or video movies that WT producing for giving "spiritual lessons and guidance" to members, are made in a way to mask or not to show some other circumstances, elements, factors, possibilities that exist in human nature and in responding to such issue in different situations. 
    Some mothers, as one in video, would not pick up the phone and talk to dfd child. But some would. This lesson in video was made for those who not obey the rule, and for those who have to learn what to do in some future fictive or not fictive circumstances.
    But you put very very good questions. Thanks.      
  4. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to JW Insider in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Very good points. Just like the early Trinitarians made additions and adjustments to the meaning of 1 John 5:7-9, because their own ideal meaning of Trinity wasn't there in any parts of the REAL Bible. Similarly, ex-JWs have actually gone to the trouble of splicing and editing a talk by Fred Franz, in which they remove his cautionary statements and make it look like he was promoting 1975 as the time for Armageddon, not just the end of 6,000 years on man's existence. I think many ex-JWs like to pride themselves on being able to take exact words and exact photocopies of older doctrinal material and using our own words against us. In this case, partly because  I think the full 1975 issue is not even understood, some have resorted to dishonesty because the actual point made in those days is not so damning as they wish it was. They wish it had been something very bad, so some (at least one case I saw) dishonestly changed the words of the original.
    I was concerned when the GB brought up the topic of 1975 again earlier this year, and think that it was a great error to try to dismiss it by implying that it came from the unauthorized speculation of individuals in the "rank and file" as the GB sometimes have called us. A good part of this really was from speculation, of course Although I think this was the very goal of the person behind it. He was hoping for speculation. None of this foundational material about 1975 could have come from anyone but Fred Franz, because at the time he was the only one allowed to speculate about prophetic matters. He was called the Oracle at Bethel sincerely by peers who loved him, and sarcastically by those who were jealous (like Bert Schroeder). But Fred Franz was now giving us permission to speculate. It was even more than that. He put information out there and pretty much told us that it was time we should start speculating on what it means. He gave us a few guidelines about what we say to the public regarding this speculation, but he simultaneously guided the parameters of the speculation. He reminded us of all the things that we might see happening around this time period. If we listen to his ideas combined from several of his talks on the topic we can see why so many understood that he was hoping and implying that we get the following meaning (in loose paraphrase):
    Are we saying that the fall of Babylon, the attack on God's people, the Great Tribulation and Armageddon would start by 1975? No ..... but it could! (wink, wink, nod, nod) Just don't be telling the public that it will. [This is our own little secret bit of knowledge, because we know that God doesn't do a single thing unless he first tells his servants, the prophets.] So, if you know who it is the constitutes Jehovah's prophet today, it should be clear to you privileged few: what you can expect -- not necessarily in 1975 specifically, but definitely in the months to shortly follow. Let him who has ears listen! I think there is plenty of evidence that we were being ASKED to speculate, at least up until 1974.  By 1974 we were being told to stop speculating. Don't know if it's true but R.Franz says that F.Franz had lost some credibility at this point from N.Knorr, because F.Franz had told Knorr that he needed to adjust the end of 6,000 years of human existence to 1974 instead of 1975. Knorr thought this finally asking too much, and asked Fred Franz to just leave it alone.
    In fact, it was speculation that caused some to understand the partly ambiguous material as NOT applying specifically to 1975, or even necessarily to the short months following 1975. Some were speculating that it might still take years before the generation died out. They were speculating about how to combine the material about 1975 with the fact that the generation that saw and understood 1914 would have to have been born around 1900 and would begin dying out after 70 or 80 years. That could reach until 1980. Others were already talking about the end of the twentieth century. And rarely, someone would mention that someone in Siberia was known to live to be 120. That could take us all the way to the year 2020. So how should we speculate that this new information about 1975 meshes with the generation that could take us all the way until the year 2020, if necessary.
    Fred Franz also promoted and wrote most of the Ezekiel book material to go along with this 1975 idea. The idea of promoting Ezekiel in was so that we could be reminded that "The nations will know that there had been a prophet among them."
    (Ezekiel 2:3-5) 3 He went on to say to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the people of Israel, to rebellious nations that have rebelled against me.. . .  and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says.’ 5 As for them, whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will certainly know that a prophet was among them. (Ezekiel 33:32, 33) . . .They will hear your words, but no one will act on them. 33 And when it comes true—and it will come true—they will have to know that a prophet has been among them.” Ezekiel had been mentioned 5 to 15 times a year in most Watchtower, but suddenly it about 50 times in 1969, 306 times in 1972, 116 times in 1973, dropping back to only 6 times in 1975. Some have speculated that all this talk about Jehovah's Witnesses acting as God's prophet was only because of the teaching of God's word. But notice the time period and the references to the time period when the point was made. Note the years on the following articles, which of course coincided with the Ezekiel book which we were studying in 1972 and 1973:
    *** w73 3/1 p. 150 Heeding Divine Warning Is Wisdom ***
    Better it is to know now, rather than too late, that there is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us, and to accept and act upon the Bible message, “not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God.” (1 Thess. 2:13) Those who wait undecided until what Jehovah’s Christian witnesses have been proclaiming ‘comes true’ “will also have to know that a prophet himself had proved to be in the midst of them.” (Ezek. 33:33) But such belated knowledge will not mean salvation for them, for it will find their hearts and their ways to be unchanged. What is to be gained by hesitating and doubting to the end that Jehovah can raise up and has raised up a genuine “prophet” within our generation? Certainly it will gain for no one the divine favor and protection needed during the speedily approaching “great tribulation.” If our course is to be that of wisdom and of faith, then, with Bible in hand, we will heed the warning of Jehovah’s true watchman and will take refuge where Jehovah indicates in his Word. Then, when Jehovah’s prophetic watchman gets the report that Christendom has been struck down, we, together with the faithful watchman, will continue to live. *** w72 4/1 pp. 197-200 ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’ ***
    So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? IDENTIFYING THE “PROPHET” These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?. . . This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief. Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show? . . .  Ezekiel’s name meant “God Strengthens,” and . . .  At the time, they might not view or appreciate him as a prophet of Jehovah. Nevertheless, whether they paid attention to him or refrained, the occasion was to come when these rebellious people would “know also that a prophet himself happened to be in the midst of them.” Jehovah would confirm him as a prophet then by causing what Ezekiel prophesied to come true. (Ezek. 2:3-5) Ezekiel was further told: . . .Since the year 1919 C.E. Jehovah’s witnesses have found circumstances to be just like that . . . . To Ezekiel, in his vision, and, symbolically to the modern-day “prophet,” the spirit-begotten, anointed ones who are the nucleus of Jehovah’s witnesses today, . . . The scroll was doubtless delivered to Ezekiel by the hand of one of the cherubs in the vision. This would indicate that Jehovah’s witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom under angelic direction and support. (Rev. 14:6, 7; Matt. 25:31, 32) And since no word or work of Jehovah can fail, for he is God Almighty, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven.  Yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a “prophet” of Jehovah was among them. Actually now more than a million and a half persons are helping that collective or composite “prophet” in his preaching work and well over that number of others are studying the Bible with the “prophet” group and its companions. It was no coincidence, and definitely intended to help fuel speculation during this time period of 1975-era predictions, when these predictions were then accompanied by a claim that there was a prophet among Jehovah's Witnesses, directed from heaven to deliver a message that would be fulfilled. "Yes. the time must come shortly." 
     
  5. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to Anna in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    @DefenderOTT you seem to be confused, sorry for not explaining it properly. What I meant was that by their own admission, the FDS had been speculating, but they counseled everyone else not to.
  6. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to TrueTomHarley in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    When you annoy Top Cat O'Malihan (the old hen) it is time to take a breather. After all, it is what I have said to others: 'If you can't abide by the rules, leave.'
    However, I am freshly chastened and from now on will do nothing but breathe joy and love to everyone - relatively speaking and with minor caveats.
  7. Confused
    DefenderOTT reacted to Anna in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Wasn't this a bit of; "do as I say but not as I do" ?
  8. Like
    DefenderOTT reacted to TrueTomHarley in "Nourishing Spiritual Food"?   
    If you concede they are humble, have admitted some mistakes, and are tireless workers - and yet you would still be critical of them, you run the risk of being more exacting than God - or less merciful than God. Why would you want to run that risk?
    For every verse there is about the virtue of arguing, there are ten about acquiescing. For every verse there is about debating, there are ten about obeying. I don't want to hash them all out. You know them as well as I. 
    You don't have to parrot stuff you can't get your head around it. Simply say "I can't get my head around this." Get behind whatever you can. Sit out what you can't. 
    No, but it has that effect. Why go there?
    As long as you are not obnoxious about it, you are fine. But you sound as though you might be obnoxious about it, buttonholing brothers and trying to convince them how your way is right and theirs is wrong. Yes, you could make trouble for yourself that way. Why do it? 
    These days, perhaps chastened by 1975,  they say such things as 'prophesy is best understood after the fact.' They don't do anti-types. That certainly cannot be said to be reckless. Why should you be reckless in their stead - making assertions that may or may not pan out? Say, if you must, 'maybe it will turn out some day that.....' and leave it at that.
    Unlimited free speech is a Western concept, not a biblical one. The Bible, as you know, speaks of ones whose mouths it it necessary to shut - others who should be muzzled, others rejected after a warning or two for insisting upon their own way. 
    Sure. Nobody has a problem with this. it is setting yourself up as the public avenger of right that will make you trouble. 
    It all boils down to how we are taught. Are we truly 'taught by Jehovah?' Or are we taught by means of clever humans out-arguing each other?
  9. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to TrueTomHarley in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    A psychedelic trip for JWs. Heavy, man.
  10. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to JW Insider in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    For some reason the images are lying on top of one another and are covering up the "Edit" button. But here are a few more, in case the idea wasn't clear.
     

     
     
     
     

     

  11. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to JW Insider in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Yikes! I just recalled that same phenomenon myself. I also knew a pioneer and a special pioneer who carried around that same Awake! magazine for years -- as late as 1973 and 1974 while I was pioneering with them.
    While in the Art Department at Brooklyn Bethel, I learned that the artist who drew this cover had died a few years before but that he was remembered for his ability to create these special headline fonts with no help from stat cameras or photographic effects. He also had done the famous piece of graphic art for the Truth book completely by hand. I saw the drawer over at the Photoplate building in the 8th floor of Factory 1 where this brother ended up doing the same chart in 30 languages, also by hand. No one else could execute the fonts as he could.

    An early copy of his Awake! cover was there, too. The Awake! cover "Is It Later Than You Think?" had been called the Hitchcock cover. I remember this because it was a Sister Hickock, I think, (the married couple Randy and Maureen both worked in Photoplate) who mentioned it. The  hypnotic, hallucinogenic style was probably supposed to conjure up the idea of a spiritist trying to look into the future. The Hitchcock reference must have come from the color scheme and ideas from posters like:

     

     



     
  12. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to TrueTomHarley in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Might there have been collusion with the Russians?
  13. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to Evacuated in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    This just about caps it for me.
    I came into the "truth" by a similar route although a little later than JWI, Truth Book, Things in Which It Is Impossible, Life Everlasting, Lamp book. In that whole time, nothing significant was stated to me about 1975 at all, other than (what I felt at the time was) incomprehensible mutterings about the end of 6000 years since Adam's creation. The few 1975 encounters I did have came a bit later, more 1973-4.  I remember the "Later than You Think" headline from a 1968 Awake that some used to still carry around on the ministry in later years.
    The cultural angle seems even more significant after reading these recent postings. I need to be persuaded now that 1975ism wasn't predominantly an "American" thing as my experience of the matter, apart from one already mentioned brother, as a topic of talk or conversational  significance, was minimal.
  14. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to JW Insider in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    I think I understand the sentiment of this first idea, that there was something appealing about being able to know the Bible's "historical sweep" of 6,000 years, and even the fact that the Bible had left enough internal evidence to count large unbroken portions of this chronology without any required references to secular support. (From Adam to Zedekiah, as it were.)  With a little help from interpretation and some secular "tent-pins" we could even reach from Adam to Jesus and fit all this into a chronological framework that included the Creation, the Flood, the Exodus, the Davidic kingdom, the coming of the Messiah, the destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple, The Return/Rebuilding, second destruction in 70 C.E., the probable timing of Paul's missionary journeys, etc.
    I was not the type of person back in 1966 to think that any of us were supposed to speculate. I heard the talk about 1975 at the 1966 summer district convention, probably twice. I thought that maturity meant that we studied the publications, reasoned on them, and then made solid decisions based on accurate knowledge. My brother was 11 and I was 9 and we both were assigned in 1966 to read the book "Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God." and "Things in which it is Impossible for God to Lie." If we read these books and studied all the baptism questions in the book "Your Word is a Lamp to My Foot" then we would both be ready for baptism in the spring 1967 circuit assembly, although we both waited until the summer convention. I don't remember personally thinking much about 1975 back in 1966 even when I read the "Life Everlasting" book that covered the topic. I read it as saying that we should be ready for Armageddon because it could happen sooner than we think. The goal, I thought, was to remind those who weren't taking Armageddon seriously, to remember that even the chronology shows that it might be "later than you think." I really didn't think that anyone was supposed to read the book and begin saying that Armageddon was going to happen in 1975.
    I don't recall any "hysteria" either. There were those who took it more seriously than others, but prior to 1975, I don't really remember anyone trying to point out exactly why they were taking it more seriously based on specific wording in the publications that they had caught and other people had missed. My mother was of the opinion that Armageddon would more likely take place in 1974 or 1976 because if it happened in 1975 that's when everyone would be expecting it, and it has to come when we are NOT expecting it. Once I told her that if she could just convince everyone that this was true, then it couldn't happen in 1974 or 1976 either, could it?
    This is probably correct. And I'm sure it happened that some were trying to show how the Watchtower was not being specific about Armageddon in 1975, even though we had heard about 4 District Overseers be as specific as Brother Sinutko. (My father would take us to two district assemblies per year because his work on the Sound systems kept him from paying close attention to the content. So we'd take one assembly in the Midwest and then we'd go back to California for two weeks to visit relatives and take in an assembly while we were out there. My California grandparents or circuit-overeer uncle were always sending us copies of the special talks and I think I heard about three other Sinutko-styled talks: similar content, but without his dramatic delivery. Then I remember the circuit overseers would give at least one talk per visit from about 1968 to 1971 that emphasized that there could have been very little time between Adam's and Eve's creation, just months or even weeks. I believe it was 1969 when the circuit assembly talk on 'the time left is reduced' included a big chart of the the number of months left between 1969 and October 1975. That same idea was used at another assembly. My father had a talk at an assembly in 1970 where he let slip a reminder that none of us should get so excited that we stop taking care of our teeth, for example, because "no one knows the day or the hour." He added the scripture from Matthew 24:36. The District Overseer was angry and met with my father and the circuit overseer telling my father  that this was not the spirit of the talk, which was to encourage excitement. The District Overseer read him the Watchtower from two years prior:
    *** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 par. 35 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
    One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. My father got counseled for "toying" with the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:36 by adding them to an assembly talk. And he was not assigned another circuit assembly part for 3 years.
    I also saw my father counsel another elder who worked for him, and who had seemingly gone overboard and had begun embarrassing him (and all other Witnesses for that matter) by starting to preach to others who came into my father's office and one of the labs my father ran at the University of Missouri. He was preaching 1975 explicitly. This brother and his wife had been Gilead missionaries back home from Ecuador when they were expecting their first baby.  My father gave him a part time job in the afternoons, and I also came back after a day of pioneering at 3:00 to work (aka "play") in the electronics labs for a couple hours. I remember this was the first work day in January 1975 and he was announcing to people that this was the year for Armageddon. This was the first time I heard a brother (fellow elder) talk to my father using argumentation from the actual wording of Watchtower publications that he was convinced were saying something more than conjecture. It was just that the Watchtower, for some reason, didn't want to word it so explicitly that it would sound like a prophecy. It was left for us to notice the clues, he thought. I can't remember any of the exact examples this elder had used. But it was clear that his general position was that it was the more astute brothers who were seeing it, and it was a serious thing to take notice, and that only the weaker, less spiritually mature Witnesses were downplaying the idea.
    I disagreed and took my father's side on this. I remember only shrugging, having nothing to say when the brother looked over to me for some agreement. It was as if he was sure his argument was winning, and he was saying to me "I'm right! Right? You can see it. Right?"  I don't remember my father even looking at me, or talking about it with him. Now I wonder if he thought he had been counseled for actually missing something, but he held his ground through the rest of the year. I remember my brother and my mother would also discuss it because my brother had started a business in 1974 which was doing very well, and I went to work for him for a year before going to Bethel. My father would always encourage the business, and my mother was afraid that starting a business, especially a successful one, was a scary thing that would make him forget about 1975. My brother sold his business 3 years later and got to Bethel after me, even though 2 years older.
    But my mother was not caught up in any hysteria either. As I said, I don't remember any "Armageddon Ernie" types. I don't even think anyone was really speculating in any negative sense. It's just that there were two ways to read the statements in the Watchtower from about 1966 to 1973. By 1974, the Watchtower was clearly downplaying the earlier rhetoric, so looking back I'd say the highest level of "speculation" was the idea that this "downplaying" was only for the outside public, but that we, on the inside, were supposed to continue "knowing" secretly that the earlier statements were still in effect. Of course, none of this means that the Watchtower ever predicted 1975 for Armageddon. The prediction, except for a few circuit and district overseer statements, were not about 1975, per se, but about the fact that the system could not go on more than a few months or years beyond 1975. It wasn't about what 1975 would bring, but: What will the 1970's bring?:

     
  15. Like
    DefenderOTT got a reaction from AllenSmith in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Those are the many mysteries of life. Why people do things out of impulse, rather than see things for what they really, are. God makes the rules, not man.

  16. Upvote
    DefenderOTT got a reaction from Foreigner in "Nourishing Spiritual Food"?   
    Do we really? I think we both know what it is to buy into ex-witness assumptions...
  17. Upvote
    DefenderOTT got a reaction from Foreigner in "Nourishing Spiritual Food"?   
    The vast majority didn't even know about it until ex-witnesses started spreading the word, and making it look like people missed out on something. 99.9% of witnesses continued with business as usual. Many others found out after reading the 1976 Watchtower, that some brethren had speculated after they were TOLD NOT TO...
    But, I don't recall anyone at that time that was disappointed in my area. That became an added challenge the Watchtower had to address.
  18. Upvote
    DefenderOTT got a reaction from Foreigner in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Those are the many mysteries of life. Why people do things out of impulse, rather than see things for what they really, are. God makes the rules, not man.

  19. Thanks
    DefenderOTT got a reaction from Foreigner in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Undoubtedly, but you seem to forget *who* actually *rang* that bell when they were told not to. Before 1914, the message was that they would not see Gods day. After 1914, the message was to fulfill prophecy by preaching and teaching. By 1921, the message of *millions now living will never die* was meant for those that could apply their loyalty to Jehovah even unto death, their mortal souls would rest, until the resurrection, and judgment. All these things, have been misunderstood by many witnesses. So, the only provision in scripture is to have faith in the one he sent. Scripture is clear, while man’s thoughts aren’t.  follow in Jesus footsteps, not your own.

    (Isaiah 22:12-14) In that day the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies, Will call for weeping and mourning, for shaved heads and the wearing of sackcloth. 13 But instead, there is celebration and rejoicing, the killing of cattle and the slaughtering of sheep, the eating of meat and the drinking of wine. ‘Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we will die.’” 14 Then Jehovah of armies revealed himself in my ears: “‘This error will not be atoned in your behalf until you people die,’ says the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies.”

    (Ecclesiastes 8:14-17) There is something futile that takes place on the earth: There are righteous people who are treated as if they had acted wickedly, and there are wicked people who are treated as if they had acted righteously. I say that this too is futility. 15 So I recommended rejoicing, because there is nothing better for man under the sun than to eat and drink and rejoice; this should accompany him as he works hard during the days of his life, which the true God gives him under the sun. 16 I applied my heart to acquire wisdom and to see all the activity happening on the earth, even going without sleep day and night. 17 Then I considered all the work of the true God, and I realized that mankind cannot comprehend what happens under the sun. No matter how hard men try, they cannot comprehend it. Even if they claim that they are wise enough to know, they cannot really comprehend it.

  20. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to JW Insider in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Yes. I've seen some of your proposed math. But I am a strong believer in Paul's words that we need nothing to be written to us about the times and seasons (1Th 5:1). This must mean that there is nothing left to calculate. The very last prophecy that hung on a time calculation was the destruction of Jerusalem, when Jesus said it would happen that armies would encamp around Jerusalem in that same generation, before the people who heard him had died out. And it happened about 34 years after Jesus predicted it to come upon that generation. After that destruction the sign had occurred and the stage was set for Jesus' parousia to appear at any time, but that it would be a bright and shining parousia like lightning, Jesus says. He also says that the parousia will come as a surprise, as unpredictable and unannounced as a thief in the night. People would be going about their business, marrying and being given in marriage, and yet that day of the parousia would come upon them as surprising as the day when the flood came in Noah's time, or when the fire came in Lot's time. Right up until the time when the parousia appears, people will be saying "where is this promised parousia of his?" while most people are still going about their business much the same way as they have since the beginning of time. 
  21. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to JW Insider in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Hey AnonymousBrother. Great to see you back!!! And hopefully coming back to the States will be a good move, too. I've heard you tell of your retirement planning talk in the past. Although you are right about the math supporting it, there are congregations where such talk will not be so welcome, of course. I imagine you raised a few eyebrows when you first talked about "100 years" more in this old system of things. That's going to be seen as "apostate" talk in some circles.
    But even this idea that the math can support "100 years" potentially produces exactly the problem we had in 1975. We all acknowledge that the end can come at any time, that's a given. But the "overlapping generation" math, even when using maximum ages of 120, and an "anointing" acknowledged as early as age 15, doesn't extend forever. (Could stretch to 2124.) But what happens if you were asked to give that same talk 50 years from now? The math would only support a maximum that's closer to 50 years. And what happens 90 years from now? The math would only support a number closer to 10 more years. That's the same thing that started in 1966, when the system was expected to go on for only 10 to 15 more years.
    Brother Splane once laughed about persons who might be sitting at the JW Broadcasting desk years down the road after he's gone, so I know he's thought of the possibility. According to the "Watchtower," as I'm sure you already know, Brother Russell started to lose faith in 1914 near the end of 1913 and early in the year 1914, and he also began speculating about how people might look back and laugh "100 years from now" on what he had been predicting. 
    On the Long Island Rail Road a few years ago, I spoke to a "Harold Camping" guy who, along with his wife, had quit their jobs because it was May 20, and only ONE day before their BIG day. I told him about our religion and 1874, 1878, 1881, 1914, and 1925 and 1975, and how you have to consider what you will do if the end doesn't come as expected. I asked if he had thought about the kind of counseling members of his faith might need on May 22 if it doesn't happen. He spoke to me about how this new date was not wrong, and it would show a grave lack of faith to be considering the possibility that it wouldn't happen. I told him about Mt 24:36; Acts 1:7, and 1Th 5:1, and that Harold Camping was wrong about his "end date" on a previous occasion, and this man was completely prepared to handle those objections. He had a whole CD of information he was giving out that explained May 21, 2011 and had a good explanation for what went wrong on a previous prediction. I gave him my number and told him I'd be happy to talk to him on May 22.
    At least Russell had been able to imagine people laughing at him 100 years down the road (2014). And many brothers that I knew were not taking 1975 very seriously either. This included my father, who even got in trouble for kind of letting that slip in a circuit assembly talk. Although my mother was a great believer in 1975, my father had a serious talk with me about 1975, confiding some of his objections about the fact that I was quitting school early to begin regular pioneering. He was of the opinion that we can believe it and be excited about it, but that it could be an embarrassment and reflect badly on Jehovah and his organization if we didn't count the cost, and consider all the possibilities before making a decision that we might "kick ourselves" for, looking back. 
  22. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to Israeli Bar Avaddhon in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    There is a story that runs on the Internet, including Facebook channels of Jehovah's Witnesses, which mentions an overseer's speech.
    Obviously I can not know if it is reality or if the speech has been "inflated".
    However, there is certainly something true.
    He basically says something like this: "I would like to let you know how the Governing Body feels.We work close to the Governing Body and we know it.The Governing Body feels we are very close to the time of the end.
    Do you know what Matthew 24:14 says? Do you know how many countries are missing to reach all the inhabited earth? Only 3 countries "
    Obviously I paraphrased: these are not the exact words but this is the meaning.
    It is obvious that "stretching the broth", sooner or later will come the end, is not it?
    So, sooner or later, "do downtown."
    The problem, however, is more serious than guess or a wrong date.
    The problem is to understand if "the calculations" we make are in harmony with the scriptures or are personal, human visions.
    I invite you to read Jeremiah 23: 1, 16
    it is too easy and superficial to say "Those who abandoned the Truth in 1975 did not really love Jehovah."
    Everyone will carry his weight and this is valid for those who have left the truth but also for those who have taught falsehood.
    Indeed the Scripture says that "the masters" will receive a more severe judgment.
    If all that has been written in the past was written to "our instruction," we should find similarities or at least guidelines to understand if our concept of "short time left" or "generation" is correct. When Jesus spoke of the end of the system of things said "this generation will not pass at all" - Mark 13:30 For a moment, we forget everything that has been said about this writing (and the word "generation") and focus on the Jewish system. There is no doubt that the Lord spake also this fact, and this is one of the reasons why certain opponents dispute the "sign of the end times." By mentioning the armies camped and pointed stakes and many other things related to the first century (things that came true) it is clear that at least part of the sign concerned the destruction of the Jewish system, including the Temple - Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20 So we must start from the principle that the generation that would not pass, at least in the first fulfillment of this prophecy, was the generation that would see the war and the armies camped on Jerusalem or the present generation at the time of the Lord (which on balance is always the same generation). Saying "this generation," Jesus could mean "this present day." In any case, the times do not change, because in the words of the Lord until the destruction of Jerusalem passed less than forty years, and therefore comes in that generation - see Luke 23: 28-31 In the second case, from the time when Christians saw "the armies camped" spent three and a half years. We can assume, honestly, that the Christians of the first century did much debate on the concept of "generation" which could be their or someone else's, or maybe the Lord would mean "generations"? It is not reasonable to believe. Christ's disciples understood the Lord's words exactly what they were. Even if they could not know exactly "day and time" knew that their generation was. All these "problems" would not exist if we had the humility to re-discuss the "start date" of this "incomprehensible generation". A single error always leads to other errors. The problem is not "a date wrong" but the attitude of subjection that is created towards a certain guide.
    And this will lead to an adverse judgment.
    What is the use of knowing "when the end comes" if our expectations are wrong?
  23. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to Srecko Sostar in 1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses   
    Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever
    Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
    Take care of your body as if you were going to live forever; and take care of your soul as if you were going to die tomorrow. 
    Smile like you’ve never cried, fight like you’ve never lost, love like you’ve never been hurt, and live like you’ll die tomorrow.
     
     
     
  24. Like
    DefenderOTT got a reaction from Nana Fofana in "Nourishing Spiritual Food"?   
    Do we really? I think we both know what it is to buy into ex-witness assumptions...
  25. Haha
    DefenderOTT reacted to Witness in "Nourishing Spiritual Food"?   
    @Israeli Bar Avaddhon
    Sir, I have put your quotes in green:
    My question is: to go where?
    Sir, we go to the one who has the sayings of eternal life, which Srecko highlighted with scripture.   It is the Son of God. It isn’t the Watchtower, since the leaders admit to not being inspired and haven’t been since the beginning.  Rev 2:2,9; Rev 3:8-13
    Can you see that the disciples followed only Jesus?
    “But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.  Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  John 6:68,69
    Should we go to religions who have taught abominations like the hell of fire, the trinity, the mother of God, innate immortality of the human soul, predestination, limbo, purgatory, and so on?
    “Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.” 1 John 2:15,16  That includes the Watchtower. 
    Any Watchtower errors do not make false religion a little bit more truth.
    Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
     “Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this (literal) mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.”
    “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.  God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”  John 4:10,21,23,24
    I would be very careful before saying "leave this religion".
    “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.  For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.  Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.  In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’  Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.”
    This cannot refer to Christendom, because as you say, God’s people are being disciplined.  This refers to the Watchtower, where God’s anointed ones are “camped”.  Rev 20:9
     “Flee from the midst of Babylon,
    And every one save his life!
    Do not be cut off in her iniquity,
    For this is the time of the Lord’s vengeance;
    He shall recompense her.
     Babylon was a golden cup in the Lord’s hand,
    That made all the earth drunk.
    The nations drank her wine;
    Therefore the nations are deranged.”
    The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” Yet, the Watchtower promotes itself as Zion.
     Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”
    Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
    38 Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” John 18:36-38a
    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”  John 14:6
    Is Jesus making an exception to this rule for an organization fabricated through the use of worldly tools and situated in, Satan’s world?  Think about it.  God and Christ are pure, while the organization is filthy rich, and run as other corporate entities are, in Satan’s world.  Why would Jesus use Satan’s resources, who literally wants to kill off all Christ’s anointed brothers (Gen 3:15) and condone anything in this system?  The Watchtower consistently teaches you to be ‘no part of the word’ yet they are so mired down in its dung, JWs see only the icing on the; well,....  It is blasphemy for an organization so full of false prophesy, false security, sin against victims of child abuse,, lawsuits,  and disfellowshipped individuals who desire to follow the truth in Christ – to call itself “the truth” and “Zion”.   
    It is the delusion of 2 Thess 2:9-12 and the ‘spirit-breathed’ Beast of Revelation.  (spirit-directed organization)
    “Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.”  Rev 13:1
    Read further and see how this Beast comes against God’s Temple/anointed ones; (1 Cor 3:16,17) accompanied by a false prophet who authorizes the “trampling”.  Matt 24:15; Rev 11:1-3
    During the discipline of Jehovah many "fake brothers" will no longer exist. Probably there will not be anyone who has idolized men above the Word of God.  We can not know how many will be, how many will remain.
    The faithful to God and Christ are found “outside the camp”, despised as “garbage”, persecuted by their own brethren for following the one Master, Jesus Christ. Matt 6:24; John 15:6; Heb 13:12-15; 1 Cor 4:13; Matt 5:11; 24:48-51
    “Woe to those who decree unrighteous decrees,
    Who write misfortune,
    Which they have prescribed
    2 To rob the needy of justice,
    And to take what is right from the poor of My people,
    That widows may be their prey,
    And that they may rob the fatherless.
    3 What will you do in the day of punishment,
    And in the desolation which will come from afar?
    To whom will you flee for help?
    And where will you leave your glory?
    4 Without Me they shall bow down among the prisoners,
    And they shall fall among the slain.”
    For all this His anger is not turned away,
    But His hand is stretched out still.
    Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.” 
    Then the rest of the trees of his forest
    Will be so few in number
    That a child may write them.”  Isa 10:1-4, 12, 19
    A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.  Therefore by their fruits you will know them.  Matt 7:18,20
    Please, do not perceive the large print as “yelling”, but to help connect the importance of Christ’s words – although it is a trumpet call to leave the crumbling wall of lies behind. Rev 11:2,3   Ezek chapter 13 is having its second fulfillment. 
     
     
     
     
     
     
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