JOHN BUTLER

Hey! You leave me out of this!

At last, I think you have put your finger on the problem. That Anna is nothing but a big chicken. ?

It was 7 until not long ago, when Kenneth Cook joined this year. I was assuming your disenchantment with the GB is not recent, therefor my comment about your feelings of being controlled was in reference to the 7 members.
I never said the anointed had mental issues, nor you, but your reasoning has put you in a unhappy state of mind. That is what I meant.
 
I hate to tell you, but if it was announced that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then you have been disfellowshipped. And by the way, the reasons for disfellowshipping are never disclosed.

Sorry don't understand. The scriptures say 'Keep knocking and it will be opened to you'. So i keep knocking by regular prayer. 

Oh come on, this seems to have started as a joke, pillow gate. SM has made it serious as he seems to have some interest in the problem. Either you or someone said, that either the GB or others, are trying to give instruction where God Himself has given none. Is it therefore right for the GB, the elders or anyone to judge those that have this 'problem', if God himself and Jesus Christ have not mentioned it.  I can see it as a way for  'shrinks' to earn money by making people feel guilty and then pretending to 'help' them... But if God shows no interest in it then should we even be bothering to worry about it ? Of course the GB could be using it to make the young ones feel guilty. Like the Pharisees loading burdens on the people. 

SM you seem to be the only one on here worrying about it all. I have just re-read the first three pages and it seems to have started off as a joke... Pillow gate. These people that you say are trying to 'help' others. Do they get paid for doing so ? Are they what i call 'shrinks' ? Messing with people's heads. Telling people what is right and wrong even though God Himself gives no direction on such matters. God will judge each of us through Jesus Christ, when the time comes. Let us not be like the Pharisees who put extra burdens on the people. 

Oh come on, this seems to have started as a joke, pillow gate. SM has made it serious as he seems to have some interest in the problem. Either you or someone said, that either the GB or others, are trying to give instruction where God Himself has given none. Is it therefore right for the GB, the elders or anyone to judge those that have this 'problem', if God himself and Jesus Christ have not mentioned it.  I can see it as a way for  'shrinks' to earn money by making people feel guilty and then pretending to 'help' them... But if God shows no interest in it then should we even be bothering to worry about it ? Of course the GB could be using it to make the young ones feel guilty. Like the Pharisees loading burdens on the people. 

SM you seem to be the only one on here worrying about it all. I have just re-read the first three pages and it seems to have started off as a joke... Pillow gate. These people that you say are trying to 'help' others. Do they get paid for doing so ? Are they what i call 'shrinks' ? Messing with people's heads. Telling people what is right and wrong even though God Himself gives no direction on such matters. God will judge each of us through Jesus Christ, when the time comes. Let us not be like the Pharisees who put extra burdens on the people. 


I liked at the meeting Thursday, Proverbs 21:2, one of the support scriptures cited on the gem point of how Jehovah draws people: 
All of a man’s ways seem right to him, But Jehovah examines the hearts.
Everybody is right. Nobody states a fact that is wrong. Everybody states facts that are right. These are all matters of the head.
But how they are combined and how they are prioritized are matters of the heart, which Jehovah examines.

Having never claimed to be anything but a Barbarian, it should be as no surprise that I might use real fire .... if it was up to me.
After a fair trial ... not allowing any witnesses ... no recordings ... no transcripts .... at night, in a darkened Kingdom Hall, in the back room ... with the front door locked ....  of course.
I mean ...... fair is fair.

(flip)   .... zing .... zing .... zing .... I gotta get some new flints for this thing ....

As far as I know every one of Jehovah's Witnesses does that.
You are saying that indeed, and I am sorry you got that impression because the GB don't view themselves that way. So what gives you that impression?

I note that you didn't answer any of my questions and I'm wondering if your reply above is supposed to be some sort of an blanket answer. If you see my points as just being 'facts of the head' then you seem to be of the same mind as the GB. That is, that it's ok to allow Child Abuse in the Org, its just collateral damage. GB thinking, 'What's a few thousand abused kids and complaining adults when we have 8 million members and the money keeps rolling in' ? 'What's a few suicides and people with mental / emotional problems due to the shunning issues which have no scriptural backing, whilst we still have our power and glory from men' ?  'We'll just make a few more 'clever' videos and predictions by misusing scripture'.  'A few more misuses of scripture  in our 'study Watchtowers, and the sheep will still follow us'.. 
I do hope that Jehovah is closely examining the 'hearts' of the Governing Body. For surely their hearts are not toward serving Jehovah God. 
 
 

My comment which you are twisting was about whether a true servant of God would need a 'mans law' to tell them what action to take. That is, should they report Child Abuse or not. Any true servant of God would know that all Child Abuse should be reported to the Police and the other authorities such as Child welfare whether its compulsory or not. The Pedophile needs to be caught and dealt with by a legal court. You do know don't you that there were courts and judges and prisons in Jesus' time ? 

My comment which you are twisting was about whether a true servant of God would need a 'mans law' to tell them what action to take. That is, should they report Child Abuse or not. Any true servant of God would know that all Child Abuse should be reported to the Police and the other authorities such as Child welfare whether its compulsory or not. The Pedophile needs to be caught and dealt with by a legal court. You do know don't you that there were courts and judges and prisons in Jesus' time ? 

In honesty I don't think the masturbation problem is such a problem in God's eyes. To some humans that want to judge others, masturbation can be used as an excuse to judge, and could possibly be big business for 'shrinks'.. As for the JW's Governing Body, i think the masterbation video and other info' is just a 'smoke screen' or side track, to take the pressure off the serious problems within the Org. If the GB can pretend to be concerned about the cleanliness of the Org then it will look good for them in front of man. But of course God sees through such things. 

So, is it true that the GB started gathering documents about Child Abuse / pedophilia accusations, from all congregations in the USA from 1997 and that this is ongoing ? Then is it true that the GB or its legal departments refused to hand these documents over the the Supreme Court of California ? Is it also true that the Organisation was fined around $2 million for not handing over the documents ? Doesn't  the scriptures say to 'be obedient to the law of the land unless it conflicts with God's laws' ? Surely God would not want the Organisation to remain  unclean ?  ......  Then again is it true that the GB or its Legal dept' agreed on massive (secret amount) payouts to the two men (ex Brothers)  regarding the child abuse they suffered whilst in the 'truth' ?  And who's money did the GB use to make these massive payouts ? ....  But you say 'no crimes have been committed'... And in Canada is it true that a 66 million dollar lawsuit is in the process, against the JW Org because of Child Abuse  /pedophilia ? I won't ask about here in the UK or in the Netherlands. Perhaps it was the reports of Child Abuse being so regular that made the GB  take action in 1997...  As for this stupid argument as to what the law states or does not state, its totally irrelevant. JW's should know what is right in God's eyes without needing a man made law. And talking of law it seems there is some proof that a brother (of some importance in the Org) here in the UK actually told brothers to destroy documents about Child Abuse accusations "because satan is coming after the organisation". Um destroying evidence is surely illegal in man's law, and against God's 'laws too. I have read in scripture that if a man has some information regarding a 'crime' or bad deed, if he withholds that information it is a sin for him. It is as bad as deliberately telling lies. .... It matters not what any other organisation does. Religious or business, legal or illegal.......  People, brothers or otherwise, should not be considered collateral damage within the JW ORG, just to keep the pretence of cleanliness. 
So I will repeat my comment which you answered on. 
And how could a person, with a clear conscience, go on the ministry to try to bring more people into an Organisation which allows such wicked Child Abuse to go on ? 

The GB claims that only those 8 men themselves are the 'faithful and discreet slave'. Although there are many more humans that claim to be of the anointed those 8 men say that the others are not important... Where do they get their authority from to say such things ? They also say that some who claim to be anointed are 'mentally unbalanced'. These 8 men pass judgement on other anointed brothers and sisters, whilst praising themselves up. Luke 14 v 11 "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted"....  I think God may have these 8 men removed and replaced by more humble servants of His.  It seems strange to have only 8 men when there were twelve tribes of Israel and Jesus himself chose 12 men as his closest companions. It also seems strange to have a GB of mainly white Americans. The Org is now Earthwide and therefore it would seem more logical to have a 'body of 12 men' from all the nations possible. Each man would have more understanding of the problems people from his own country face... And maybe also God would use others from the anointed to be more active and giving more input. This is of course only my opinion. 

Ah but the Pope is organised and so is the Archbishop, and probably most leaders of most 'Christian' religions, but it does not make them right and it does not give them God's approval. So to follow the direction of a GB that does not have God's approval and is not directed by God's holy spirit would be 'the blind leading the blind'. And how could a person, with a clear conscience, go on the ministry to try to bring more people into an Organisation which allows such wicked Child Abuse to go on. And how could such a person follow the wicked rule of shunning innocent people just because the GB says so.... Yes I agree with you, God has to show us the right Organisation to be part of, but the JW Org does not seem to measure up to it. You seem to put aside the fact that the GB proclaim to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave' and they say that no one else but them have this special communication with God. So for you to say the GB may or may not be doing a good job is rather strange if in fact you believe the proclamation they make about themselves.

If this thesis is wrong ? What then? You have premise. But if you handle with wrong premise all your conclusions based on wrong premise will be questionable or useless. 

Sorry don't understand. The scriptures say 'Keep knocking and it will be opened to you'. So i keep knocking by regular prayer. 

I am not fully aware of this discussion as it has only been coming up on my emails for the past 3 days. However it is my opinion that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have been going beyond the things written for many years. As they falsely claim to be the 'faithful and discreet slave class' they then use this claim to make any rules and statements they wish. I haven't watched the masterbation video but it would seem to me that the GB are acting like politicians, trying to direct the floodlight in a different direction, away from the Child Abuse serious problem in the Org, of which the GB are the cause....  However i did find in Leviticus at ch15 v16 Jehovah does mention about a man being unclean if he has an emission of semen. ....  Moving on. Your underlined sentence about mistreating our own family. Is this a nudge at the Shunning problem in the JW org ? If not it should be. The GB of the JW org make up their own rules and 'laws' and the Elders follow like puppets, obeying without question. The GB has 'chased away' many people. Many of them victims of Child Abuse and many others that try to help those victims. So the GB of the JW Org are guilty of manslaughter if those 'outside the Org' will be judged unworthy on the 'Judgement Day'.  My opinion is that the GB are the 'evil slave class' that mistreat the servants of the house of God. But where it goes from here i  have no idea... If we are close to the 'end of this system' then surely Yahweh / Jehovah has to show everyone the true way to serve Him properly. If not then how can we be considered unworthy, if we haven't been shown the honest 'truth'.  This stupid Masterbation video at such an important time just shown how lost the GB are. and it shows that they are not the 'faithful slave'. As for 'telling all' to the Elders, no definitely not. We should confess our sins to God through Jesus Christ and ask forgiveness on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice, not confess our sins to mere men who have no authority from God. It can be clearly seen that the Elders have no idea how to manage anything other than the running of the 'meetings'.... Since leaving the JW Org I have continuously prayed to God using both names Yahweh and Jehovah and always prayed through Jesus Christ. I am reading the 4 gospels over and over now and finding things I never noticed before. but I will confess one thing, I have not yet moved forward. So I am waiting on God through Jesus Christ and the holy spirit to give me direction through His written word. Otherwise what options do i have as I believe the scriptures when they say 'Put not your trust in earthling man'.  However i am confused by one more thing. It has always occurred to me that God's written word was never written for all of us to understand properly. It seems to have been written for only the Anointed to understand and then for them to instruct those who show faith. But if we cannot be sure who the anointed truly are then we have a problem. 'By their works you will know them' for sure, but would that really mean going through every 'christian type religion' ? Enough for now. Please do not be angry with me for sharing my thoughts even though they may be off topic. 

Fabulous. Nice to see some humour in the ranks. 
 

@TrueTomHarley Something else I've been looking into slightly, but not yet deeply is this :-
The Jews practised 'pikuach nefesh' and possibly still do. It means that life is more valuable than obedience to the Law. So in many cases the Jews were / are allowed to break the Mosaic Law to help someone to stay alive. 
Jesus said at Matthew 12 v 9 -12,  After departing from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10  and look! there was a man with a withered hand! So they asked him, “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath?” so that they might accuse him.11  He said to them: “If you have one sheep and that sheep falls into a pit on the Sabbath, is there a man among you who will not grab hold of it and lift it out?12  How much more valuable is a man than a sheep So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath.” 
Jesus also said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'.  Jesus was quoting Hosea 6 v6. 
But it got me thinking about Blood transfusions to save life. If Jesus himself said 'So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath. 
Was he saying it is right to go against Bible law and principles if it means saving a person's life ? 

One does not have to be a friend of something to enable it. Most enablers are not friends of what they enable.
I never accused you of being a friend of it.