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indagator

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indagator last won the day on July 16 2018

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  1. Greetings to all from one who has not visited here in a while. I hope this winds up in the right heading(!), and I hope the bros. and sisters who visit here more regularly than I do are well and have Jah’s blessings. Something has come up that surprised me, and I know that certain people here might have input. First, a background: for some years now there has been some contentious discussion among certain academics, namely, between Evangelical types and others outside of their perspective on the status of Jesus in his pre-existence. Of course, the Evangelicals with their fourth-centu
  2. JWI mentioned the Oct. broadcast with Geoffrey Jackson who discussed the history of the NWT. Among the J refs. I have never seen the Bible translation by John Nelson Darby (died in 1882), famous for helping start the Plymouth Brethren. This has long surprised me since Fred Franz used to quote that translation in the Society's publications. My copy is a 1975 reprint by Holman of Darby's second ed. of 1871. You can see for yourselves how he took the lack of the Greek article before kyrios as an indication that the ref. was to Jehovah. While he never printed that in the text, you can see how he
  3. Well, it's been a while since JWI obtained and read Shaw's book on the Greek form of the tetragrammaton, Ιαω. He says he's given it two full readings. No doubt the book is dense and difficult, but it has much to offer anyone interested in the divine name. There are many informative features of the work. One of its strengths is setting the mystical use of Ιαω, that is, its use by Gnostics and magicians, in the proper historical framework. Previous scholars—and many current ones still—see Ιαω and immediately think "magic" or "Gnostic" without understanding how those people came to learn of
  4. Any word on the 2018 Annual Meeting? Usually by this time there have been announcements—have I missed something?
  5. Only time for a brief reply—sorry. As JWI brings out, certain people have from time to time tried to tie manuscript finds from Qumran to Christianity. All such things have come to naught, and rightly so. A suggestion, bruceq: before forming opinions on a matter, gain the knowledge necessary to do so. In this case, one of the essential points is the testimony of the Greek historian Diodorus of Sicily who states that Jews were using Ιαω as the active pronunciation of their God around 50 BC/BCE. Obviously Christianity did not yet exist then. Therefore, the Qumran manuscript would be support for D
  6. JTR: that depends on the dialect of English—there are many. Do you care to specify (UK with several sub-categories; Canadian; Aussie; American with several sub-categories; South African, etc.)? JWI: Your latest words remind me of Eccl. 12:12... Surls' book is nice on his main thesis, that the name's meaning in Exodus, the context in which Jah revealed the meaning of his name, is best understood by pondering how he revealed himself as the book goes along, esp. in the later chapters.
  7. JWI, That dissertation has been revised as a book now with improvements made and more refs. to Shaw's work:
      Hello guest!
    Probably best to stick with the updated edition. I've read it. It's good on certain points but does not have the scope or time frame of Shaw's book. The latter is far more on-topic for
  8. Member “Witness” at this forum has taken exception to the NWT’s rendering of 2 Cor. 5:20 as “substitutes for Christ”:
      Hello guest!
    She states, “There is only one translation that I have found for 2 Cor 5:20, that throws in the word “substitute” – not just once, but twice – the NWT.” What's the real sto
  9. JWI, such tangents are common and expected in forums like this one. It's all part of the forum experience. Your humor is appreciated. Yes, plenty of people have historically been sidetracked by numbers, gematria, etc. GA, "The Shaw book sounds interesting but I can't access it anywhere." It's available from the publisher for $81 US:
  10. Is it really so important that God's name be or not be a certain biblical book so that one must go ahunting for its supposed presence in acrostics? It's nowhere in Ecclesiastes. Or Philippians, 1 Timothy, or the epistles of John. In the end isn't its presence or absence in any book all part of Jehovah's will? All sorts of unexpected things occur when it comes to the divine name. For example, its only supposed appearance in the Song of Sol. is Jah (8:6), and that is textually problematic. It's common in the prologue or introductory material of Job and then relatively common at the end, but
  11. JWI, yes, Shaw's book is, as you say, "densely packed." It requires concentration, and likely a rereading of portions as you plow through certain sections the first time. It is all worth it. I think many of us can relate to getting distracted with our various interests in diverse things having to do with Jehovah's word. On the topic of an acrostic divine name in Esther, have you read this?
  12. GA said: "What interests me more is did/how did Jesus pronounce the name? And what reaction was there at the time?" Then JWI said: "There is a lot more info related to that topic than I ever imagined possible. " Yes, this is overall point of Shaw's book. As I posted elsewhere here, "Yaho" in Aramaic (יהו), the language of Jesus and the apostles, was the active pronunciation of the divine name in their day. Since the good news was spread via Greek, this shows up as Ιαω in that language. Hence the finding of this form of the name in the LXX Qumran manuscript of Lev. and its much m
  13. I've read Meyer's diss as well. There are several problems with it, but they aren't major ones. He seems to be, in effect, backing off one point in his review where he disagrees with Shaw, namely that the use of Iao among Jews in the Second Temple Period was more a socio-economic class thing. In his diss. he seems more amenable to the idea, though he never comes out and states that. Again, it is what the evidence suggests. Interestingly, he never discusses in either work the implications for all this in the NT (Shaw's chapters 7 and 10). It's probably too much of a hot potato for him. He comes
  14. OK, I scanned and am attaching the words of Hart referred to above on his take on what the first Christians were like, pp. xxiv-xxv of his Introduction. If go down to "What perhaps did impress itself..." on p. xxiv, that part begins. DBH intro. pp..pdf
  15. I see there has not been much discussion at this forum of the NT translation that appeared in 2017 by David Bentley Hart (Yale University Press). Bro. Rando mentioned Hart's translation last year when he quoted his rendering of John 1:1c, "the Logos was god" here:
      Hello guest!
    There is much more of value
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