Grey Reformer

@Grey Reformer Well it is said by a majority of Russians I have seen and what is seen in the discussion with those shut out by the duma, Russian Church does not like competition. They will go after you for anything, they went for a Librarian and a Pokemon player, they went for many others and it will not stop as long as the triads of power remain. Outside of religion, people also fought for their homes and other things in Russia.
The Russian Church had gotten stronger since the day the Pope met Cyrill.

If you read carefully hidden in Sunday's WT lesson for last week .. the emphasis was on OVERTHROWING governments, or regime change.
Be a sport ... read the WT study article once again, with that kept in your mind.
It appears that the only way many of us develop reading comprehension is after reading something incorrectly, recovering from figurative "bullet wounds".
The Society is VERY careful nowadays NOT to directly speak against voting.
Probably learned from recovering from too many continuous governmental sanction "bullet wounds".
The legal staff and accountants and the "Helpers" are now running the show.
I have carefully watched this transition and power shift over 50 years and more.
It has been funny, and terribly, terribly sad, at the same time.
 

EUROPEAN COMMISSION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
Application No. 28626/95
Khristiansko Sdruzhenie "Svideteli na Iehova"
(Christian Association Jehovah's Witnesses)
against
Bulgaria
REPORT OF THE COMMISSION
(adopted on 9 March 1998)
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Page
INTRODUCTION. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
PART I : STATEMENT OF THE FACTS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3
PART II : SOLUTION REACHED. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
INTRODUCTION
1. This Report relates to the application introduced under
Article 25 of the European Convention for the Protection of Human
Rights and Fundamental Freedoms by Khristiansko Sdruzhenie "Svideteli
na Iehova" (Christian Association Jehovah's Witnesses) against Bulgaria
on 6 September 1995. The application was registered on 21 September
1995 under file No. 28626/95.
2. The applicant association was represented by MM Alain Garay and
Philippe Goni, lawyers practising in Paris.
3. The Government of Bulgaria were represented by their Agent, Mrs
Guenka Beleva and, subsequently, by Mr Vladimir Sotirov of the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs and by Mrs Violina Djidjeva, co-agent.
4. On 3 July 1997 the Commission declared the application
admissible. It then proceeded to carry out its task under Article 28
para. 1 of the Convention which provides as follows:
"In the event of the Commission accepting a petition referred to
it:
a. it shall, with a view to ascertaining the facts, undertake
together with the representatives of the parties an examination
of the petition and, if need be, an investigation, for the
effective conduct of which the States concerned shall furnish all
necessary facilities, after an exchange of views with the
Commission;
b. it shall at the same time place itself at the disposal of
the parties concerned with a view to securing a friendly
settlement of the matter on the basis of respect for Human Rights
as defined in this Convention."
5. The Commission found that the parties had reached a friendly
settlement of the case and on 9 March 1998 adopted this Report, which,
in accordance with Article 28 para. 2 of the Convention, is confined
to a brief statement of the facts and of the solution reached.
6. The following members were present when the Report was adopted:
...................................................... etc.
JW participate very much in politics to some level with other religious and non religious organization.
If you go to read few documents about Bulgaria issue and see what in fact was the content of "friendly settlement" then you will be surprised ones again.
JW representatives are participants on regular basis (for many years) in OSCE meetings as Non-Governmental Organizations.
What  is  OSCE? https://www.osce.org/who-we-are
Among its key partner organizations are the United Nations, the European Union, the Council of Europe, and NATO. Perhaps this is continuation after 1991-2001 disgrace with UN affiliation. http://www.truebiblecode.com/images/JWUNDPI.pdf
YES, WT and JW are politically involved.
There is no Neutral position, perhaps only  as  OBLIGATION for members, most for rank and file members.

By the way Grey Reformer ... did you know that former  Presidents of the WTB&TS swore under oath before God to bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America?
Here is the oath they swore:
"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to to the same; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion. So help me God."
If they had not ... they would not have gotten a US Passport.
.... talk about selling your birthright for a bowl of stew ......
 
 

Po
I am glad you asked.
I did not insult you ... I only stated a fact, which you have confirmed just now, that in the area of political interactions in the REAL world, you are not aware of what is going on around you.
I am ignorant of many things, also. 
To say someone is ignorant is not an insult, especially in a specific area of human perception and thinking.
I could say that you have a nice car .... if you TAKE it as an insult, that does not mean I have insulted you.
 If you are a midget, and I say you are a midget, that is not an insult ... merely a statement of actual fact. Referring to you as a "little person" may be more diplomatic, but you would still be a midget..
The letter writing was a naive idea that could never have worked.  The Russian Federation is NOT governed by any concepts of fairness.
But, getting to your specific question ... Letter writing TO POLITICIANS and GOVERNMENTS is political activity.  Whether it succeeds in changing their governmental policy, or fails at changing their governmental policy is completely immaterial.
The fact that you TRIED is political activity.
You would think the GB would have figured that out after presenting their case in all lower courts, and the Russian Supreme Court .. twice.
Apparently NOT.
So ... they tried political activism.
That did not work, either.
But they niavely TRIED ... which the Russkies appreciated.
They must have laughed themselves into a coma, after stealing all the JW real estate, then .... getting 56 million dollars and 11 train boxcars full of thinly sliced firewood as a free bonus.
They have a policy that it is immoral to let a sucker keep his money ... but this exceeded their wildest expectations.
 
 

And to think that I once called this brother ‘Allen the Terrible.’ Not only does he prove the resurrection; he proves the rehabilitation. A few Bible verses say it all. 

That is just the problem, Grey Reformer ... you are unaware.
You are unaware that anything one has to do with trying to change government policy is political activism.
You do not have to VOTE for something, to be heavily involved in politics.
Conversely, NOT speaking out against any issues of one "side" or another is ALSO , by omission, political activity.
You can protest in the streets in demonstrations.
You can engage in political activity by writing letters to your Senators, Congressmen, or even the President of the United States.
You can engage in political activity by entreaty,  by mailing 64 million letters to the Russian Government ... which by the way, NOBODY read, and they were either taken to a landfill, or used as fuel in wood burning stoves last winter. 
The only thing the Russian Government noted was the fact that 70% of the face value of the international postage was forwarded to them by the Universal Postal Union for terminal delivery, which never happened.
But they did .. they DID get... approximately $56 MILLION DOLLARS of the BROTHERHOOD'S hard earned money as an unintended free gift.
If you wanted to bribe someone, and make it seem invisible, that is one way to do it.
The Brotherhood in effect, at the pleading of the Governing Body ... gave the Russian Government 56 MILLION DOLLARS.
  The DIRECT result of political activism.
Plus, last winter "Fuel at the proper time".
You can "vote" with a ballot.
You can "vote" with your feet, by getting away, deliberately leaving the influence of political oppression.
You can "vote" with your wallet, by supporting, or NOT supporting things you find offensive, and reject.
And of course ... you can, as history has borne out, you can "vote" with a rifle.
You can "vote" by NOT picking up a rifle.
That is just the problem, Grey Reformer ... you are just plain ignorant,  uninformed, and consequently  unaware.
To one extent or another, everyone that lives, or has ever lived shares  that, including you, me, and the Governing Body ... as giving 56 MILLION DOLLARS to your political adversary clearly demonstrates.

That is why perception is such a disingenuous and pretentious view for former witnesses and those that think along with, the same line of reasoning. That is why the GB work tirelessly to do God’s work as envisioned and made known by God.

Those witnesses that have a true heart to see this, don’t have a need to follow “blindly” as speculated, but with genuine faith. Those without faith and a weak heart set their minds to question God’s words.

That’s good the idea on perception can have logical reasoning behind conjecture. Although, since you bring up WWll, and Nazism as though it can be compared? What truth can be extrapolated when the Nazi governing church prayed to God for their success to win that war, while the ally churches prayed to God for their success in winning that war, pitting their own professed brothers of faith against each other

Aside from those that gave up their faithful brothers for fear of death to the enemy, even though Christ made it a point not to fear such an outcome? Where does the wisdom lie?

Precisely. Now you have hit a snag with your own interpretation. Is the GB responsible for that? Every witness should be aware, the God of this world plays a pivotal role with the horrors that go on within society. Can we blame God for that?

The “assumption” is condemnation, but, who, what, when, where, and why? Facts seem to be appreciated but not when it’s not delivered, and rhetorical. That’s a double edge sword as well, since I have yet to see any.

Then we have just learned whose reasoning holds an irrational thought. Venturing into the past without a proper context leans toward desperation than facts.
I believe we have gone full circle with this assumption of, why perception is such a disingenuous and pretentious view for former witnesses and those that think with the same line of reasoning.

I was unaware sending letters to a government that disbanded the preaching work of a religious organization when it left other religions well enough alone, especially the Orthodox Church had anything to do with the Watchtower making a vote. What did all those letters VOTE for? If you can explain it with new evidence of truth, you reference as being, it would be greatly appreciated.

I would think, all those brothers, that sent in letters, in support of their brothers in Russia were doing so under the biblical guidance in Hebrews 13:1. If you have information to the contrary, please enlighten me.

However, if that assumption proves too difficult, then I must abide by what is mentioned in James 4:11 since this might become self-serving "In some very few cases your own perceptions may be true, but mostly they are simply just plain wrong." upon your own understanding.

Hmmmm... I thought the Governing Body was supposed to be faithful and discrete slaves .....   ministering to ..... to the brotherhood.
The IDEA of providing " food at the proper time" is not to spiritually feed God ... it is supposed to feed the Brotherhood ... QUALITY food at the proper time.
WHOLESOME food at the proper time.
We seem to have, with BLIND respect for the Governing Body,  evolved into an idolatrous situation, divorced from common sense reality.

Let us not forget, it was the people that put Jesus on a pedestal and it was the people that became disappointed Jesus didn’t deliver on God’s promise in ancient times that the people got wrong to begin with. Did Jesus demand appreciation? Or would he run away when he thought the people were conspiring to make him something on earth, that wasn’t written in the ancient scrolls?

The appreciation that the GB deserve is the initiative they have to undertake a heavy responsibility and weight on their shoulders.

Anyone serving Jehovah in the correct manner is deserving of appreciation. That was the message from Paul to Titus. Any other Christian directive should be considered as a mark of Cain within Christianity. Since God made the laws that God and Christ commanded to obey. The GB are governed by those laws, and they don't promote any kind of thinking outside God's inspired words. Outside thinking comes from cynicism and a lack of biblical understanding.

Thank You.   These folks who are on various sites to cause trouble and try to stir up dissention need to turn off their computer and go do some physical work instead of the devil's work.   

NO!

[Here's a transcript of the video as supplied on the page. Shouting and bad formatting is theirs :-)]

See .... you can make very valid points without having to resort to vulgarity ! 
That was a very STRONG essay.

Yeesh.
Commitment - "Show your commitment by displaying photos of your spouse on your desk at work"
Teamwork - "Do I keep my distance from my spouse’s relatives, even though he or she is close to them?" ...Yes, if they're not JWs...
Respect - “To respect my wife means that I appreciate her value and I don’t want to do anything that would damage her or our marriage.”—Micah." ...In spite of her smaller brain...
Forgiveness - Lots of talk about forgiveness, but damn little talk about giving a sincere apology. That's certainly the WT's response to questions about their 1975 fiasco. From the blurb: "‘Am I overly sensitive?’ ... ‘Is the offense so serious that I need an apology, or can I just overlook it?’ Yeah, they'd love to dump the responsibility for "forgiving" onto their members....
Communication - "Genuine communication takes place when you and your children share a two-way exchange of thoughts and feelings." ...That's strange. That certainly isn't Tight-Pants Tony's method of communication - nor of any of the other Governing Body members, either.
Discipline - ...That's weird... The entire blurb only mentions CHILDREN as needing discipline. Doesn't mention the fact that the parents often need as much if not more discipline (like self-discipline) themselves.
Values - as in Bronze/Iron Age Middle Eastern Male values. Nothing more needs to be said.
Example - "Children and even teenagers are influenced more by their parents than by anyone else..." - and parents are influenced more by "Mother" Watchtower than by anyone else, so it's no surprise that highly dysfunctional parenting is terribly common among JWs.
Identity - "When you have a strong sense of identity, you stand up for your beliefs instead of allowing your peers to control you." No, no, no, let me fix that. "When you have a strong sense of self, you stand up for your innate existence instead of allowing a cult to control you." There, that's better...
Trustworthiness - (Couldn't stop laughing at that title!) "Whether you want to earn more trust or regain lost trust, the following steps can help. Be honest. Nothing will shatter others’ trust in you quicker than lies. Conversely, when you are open and honest—especially about your mistakes—you can earn the trust of others." ...Too bad WT Society has completely shattered alert peoples' trust in them with false dates for "Armageddon", terrible miscarriages of 'theocratic zeal' when Malawi JWs were subjected to horrific mistreatment over a basic I.D. card while Mexican brothers were given permission to bribe officials, and more.
Industriousness - "Industrious people do not shy away from work. Rather, they enjoy working hard to provide for their personal needs and to help others—even if the work they do is not glamorous." But don't you DARE go to college or seek promotions at work or develop your own profitable company or monetize your talents or try to be successful!
Goals - (Ah, HA HA HA HA HA!!) "A goal is more than just a dream—something you wish would happen. Real goals involve planning, flexibility, and good, old-fashioned hard work." What is NOT stated, is that the ONLY acceptable goals for JWs are those which enrich the Watchtower Society. As mentioned in Number Eleven above, NO developing talents into hugely successful careers (but if you're already a successful rock star, they'll happily take your money!), no higher education (unless you're willing to slave for the WT Society), no seeking promotions or overtime at work, and so on.
Now I need a shower...
- Zactly

I realize that those kids are playing with their parents, but it seems pretty dishonest for them to portray sports in a positive light when it is so plainly forbidden inside the organization

Sounds like a Buzzfeed article doesn't it?
You'll never believe number 7 ?
Click next to continue slideshow...

New here and I'm still learning the ropes, reading various one's posts and so on. I guess I should try my hand at a "Controversial Post" that might rile some readers. That's not really my motive. Rather it is to stimulate some thought. It is certainly not to damage anyone's faith.

On the OP by JWI here (https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/56691-i-am-the-christ/?tab=comments#comment-95352) Space Merchant brought up the matter of JWs being Restorationists. There is much truth to that, whether the org has always wanted to admit it or not. The question to deal with in such a case is how far any group is willing to go in that regard. For example, if a group today really wanted to go full bore in imitating the first Christians, would not those already in authority literally lay their hands upon newly appointed men? That’s what the earliest Christians did.

That's a relatively minor issue, but a larger one is my focus. Let's grant that the brothers today pretty much do try and imitate the first Christians. They have a history, however, of not always wanting to do so. For example, in Ray Franz's first book he relates that when he was working on the Aid book and went to his uncle about what he was discovering regarding how the first Christians governed themselves, he got a response that basically showed Fred Franz knew all along that the way the org had governed itself up to that point was not the way the earliest Christians did. His uncle stated that changes from the way the first Christians did things were acceptable, specifically, "since Christ had taken Kingdom power in 1914, there could rightly be changes in the way things were administered on earth" (CofC pp. 24-5, 1st ed.; p. 28, 4th ed.). This was over the institution of the bodies of elders arrangement, something that, to the org's credit they adopted so as to become more in harmony with the biblical view. It is worthy of note, however, that FF knew the earlier cong. servant system was unbiblical, for years felt that was okay, and only agreed to change it when others put pressure on him to do so.

So what about today? In spite of many criticisms by outsiders and grumpy people who leave for whatever reasons (and a few are surely legit, though most are probably not), the basic structure of a governing committee/board/body is in imitation of the Jerusalem group of original living apostles and other leading figures there. But is everything today like it was in the first century? Did that early GB never openly criticize each other before the flock as today's GB is so careful to avoid doing? The incident at Antioch shows otherwise (Gal. 2:11-14). Here we have one member of the GB, Paul, calling on the carpet quite openly, "before them all," Peter and other GB men from James. Not only did he do this publicly in Antioch but he then sent out a letter to the congregations in Galatia declaring what he did. Furthermore, he did this knowing that copies of that letter would be made and circulated elsewhere.

Just how does the GB's practice of governing God's people today imitate that model? Could you imagine today’s GB imitating the first Christians in this regard? If one tries to make an exception here and say that in this area, it's OK to depart from the biblical model, then is it not hypocritical to criticize other professed Christians for not following the earliest Christians' practice and celebrating holidays like Christmas and Easter, or failing to preach the Kingdom of God as a real government?

That should be something to think about that will qualify as a controversial topic! Remember, please, this is not posted to harm anyone's faith but to cause individuals to think.

The fact you ignore God's Law in regards to the use of foul language pretty much says it all, as if the comedian post was enough days ago. Other than that, I do not see why the the fuzz about doing more for God, not all the time higher education gets you where you want to go and even if it did, a ball and chain will be strapped to you until a 6 foot grave is dug for you and to Sheol you go, and the rat race cycle continues for this dream that cannot be reached unless you kick people while they are done and make your wife appear as a trophy to show off to your friends.
The only thing you need is a trade which you can learn in several months to 4-5 years and you are good, to become a slave to the society of the world you will not last long, but the mainstream adapts to what is being punished out.
 
Other than that, there is hypocrisy, for if someone else of another faith chooses to do missionary work rather than go to School, we treat such ones as saints, what is different with them compared to this faith? The same could be said about those being persecuted and thrown into jail, you praise one, but to the other you wish for him or her to die and or suffer in jail because of their faith.

This would suggest, higher education was not needed to work with what was available back in the day. Since humanity has changed? Then, higher education is needed for all the technological advancements that weren’t around.

Its moves with the sign of the times. However, if someone desires spiritual growth, who can decide how someone should follow Christ as a poor man, that needed nothing but the generosity of others, and he gave the same advice to his apostles, that followed his teachings to the very end in the same fashion, even though some were successful.

Therefore, where is it said, that life is a guarantee for someone’s success. If there is? Where is it, so everyone can sign up.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2014/08/07/335285098/rich-kid-poor-kid-for-30-years-baltimore-study-tracked-who-gets-ahead

Jack. I think you are trying to say that experience is bogus because it doesn't make complete sense to you. And it appears like a contradiction when we consider those famous persons who have been associated either as Witnesses or those who may have identified as JWs due to the influence of their Witness parents or family members.
I understand the cynicism about some of the experiences. I have previously shared my own discomfort when I watched  a committee of brothers enhance the experiences of Witnesses who provided experiences for the special Bethel "Family Night" gatherings. It smacked of dishonesty to me, but there was always a grain of truth in what they were enhancing, and they were usually quite careful with the wording so that it was not technically or legally an untruth. But for "Family Night" I watched the committee edit the person's own story and his own recollections with facts not in evidence just to make it sound better, and it was clearly to enhance the reputation of the WTS, and to change something just slightly so that it would not detract from that same reputation. At Bethel, I had also learned how the resume of Fred Franz' educational background had been enhanced in ways that were never corrected until the Proclaimers book came out.
But I don't know that this story in particular is enhanced. I see some potential problems, and a wise person will not simply believe everything he hears. I think the story might be perfectly true. "She was asked to take part in the Winter Olympics . . ." There is nothing unbelievable about this. Many very talented people have been on their way toward stardom and have given it up for religion or ideology or rethinking what it would mean to their life. But notice that no one is claiming that this person was invited to participate as an athlete to represent her country. It may have been that a coach wanted her there to watch. Perhaps, she showed promise as a skier, and it was a parent who asked her to go on to another few years of training to be able to take part in the Winter Olympics. This could be construed to create the statement that she was asked to take part.
Or perhaps she had already trained, and was ready, and was considered a viable competitor, but was also completing her studies with the Witnesses and was preparing for baptism. A single statement from the person studying with her might have made her change her mind. The statement in the WT above may be perfectly legitimate and not enhanced at all. I'm sure you see this as a possibility, too, even if you disagree with the decision she made.
There are non-JW experiences like this too. I remember hearing about a professional basketball player named Robinson, I think, whose mother told him he had to graduate a four-year college even though he had been asked to sign on professionally right after high school. He was offered a multi-million dollar contract, and had to give it up, and who knows what change of direction his life might have taken during that four years. He could have lost his contract, he probably cut four years of his earning potential away, but he did it for his mother, or for his agreement with her particular ideology about life and priorities. Others look at this and say B*S* because he could have played for 4 years, made millions and then gone to college if the basketball "gig" didn't work out, right? But younger people often don't know how to handle fame and money, and there are countless bodies of evidence, sometimes dead bodies, in support of this fact.
On the other hand, what is the overall point of the experience? It's the same point that should be pointed out to any who wish for fame when there are other more important things that could bring potentially more satisfaction. There is also the drive for fame and money that many young people are not realistic about. They could end up spinning their wheels for a lifetime in pursuit of something that was not really attainable. Or even if it was attainable, it may be much more transitory than they realized.
One of my daughter's good friends from high school was  a young model who was asked to work on a soap opera. She did this for two years, and did commercials, and photo layouts for fashion, and was on a billboard for years in the NY diamond district. But it only lasted for about 5 years. Although she can be proud of her work, she is today ... get this @James Thomas Rook Jr. . . .a shoe salesperson. Literally. She works in London selling Louboutin shoes, making good money, and she seems happy. Only her parents and siblings still push for her to try to get back into acting and modelling as if it were some pinnacle of achievement. (On a side note, my wife and I are in Paris right now, with my daughter, and we expect to see this same friend of hers next weekend.)
What about being the ability to be both satisfied and happy with something different than fame or money? Something that is better for oneself and others in both the short run and the long run?