Kosonen

@Arauna I can read your posts. They are visible as before. I have just not commented your arguments. I don't want to dispute. And the matter with Babylon the Great is not yet so evident. Because the execution of God's servants, especially the anointed has not yet begun which will be lead by Babylon the Great. There will come a period of about 3 and half years. Only after that Babylon the Great will be destroyed.

Some years ago we studied at the meetings the book Jehovah's witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom and were taught that developing a Christlike character is not so important as preaching. I don't know if you took it that way. But at least I got that impression, and believed it. And thus I continued to focus on preaching and theocratic activities instead of character development. Or in other words to put on the new personality. Here is a quote from that publication, page 292: "The article “Character or Covenant—Which?” in The Watch Tower of May 1, 1926, is a striking example. It frankly considered the harmful effects from what was called character development and then stressed the importance of fulfilling one’s obligations to God by actions." On page 172-173 we find additional thoughts on that: "Although they started with sound Scriptural counsel about the need to be Christlike, the emphasis that some of the early Bible Students gave to “character development,” as they called it, tended to minimize certain aspects of real Christianity. Some of them seemed to be of the opinion that being genteel—always appearing to be kind and good, speaking softly, avoiding any display of anger, reading the Scriptures daily—would guarantee their entrance into heaven. But these lost sight of the fact that Christ had given his followers a work to do. This problem was firmly addressed in the article “Character or Covenant—Which?” in the May 1, 1926, issue of The Watch Tower.* It showed that efforts to develop a “perfect character” while in the flesh caused some to give up in discouragement, but at the same time, it produced a “more holy than thou” attitude in others and tended to cause them to lose sight of the merit of Christ’s sacrifice. After emphasizing faith in the shed blood of Christ, the article highlighted the importance of ‘doing things’ in the active service of God to give evidence that one was pursuing a course pleasing to God."(End of quote) That seem to still be the priorities WT organization holds to. At the meetings every week there are a lot of programs encouraging to witness more. As if it really was needed after years of repeated visits to the same house holders. Many JWs wonder if it is really needed? To repeatedly check out if uninterested people had changed their minds? I don't find scriptural basis for that in the Christian Greek scriptures. Instead I find so much scriptural basis for "character development" in the Christian Greek scriptures. Let's examine what really is God's will. I invite you to post scriptures showing what really is God's will.

Let's look at how important Jehovah God's own sanctification is for Himself. This is important to understand. If it would be the thing God cares the most about and if everything else is secundary, then God does not appear that loving after all. And that kind of belief would impede us to love God from all our heart. And because we imitate God, that would make us also less loving. Then that would mean that we too are right to be very defensive about our own reputation. Already this feels wrong. We are not proud, haughty, selfcentered me-first people. To be primarly interested about one's own reputation is not compatible with Christian values, such as humility. It is in fact evident from the Bible that God prioritizes other things than having a good reputation. God has let people mock him for long time and he has let Satan try to destroy God's reputation. We can read In Bible accounts about people who ask God to think about His own reputation and do something about it, as if God did not think about it. In Exodus 32:9-14 Jehovah wanted to exterminate the people he had brought up from Egypt because of how obstinate, rebellious and disobedient they truly were. But Moses pleaded Jehovah God to think about His own reputation and not do it. So Jehovah reconsidered his intent to exterminate them. https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/exodus/32/ Psalm 74:10 How long, O God, will the adversary keep taunting?+Will the enemy treat your name with disrespect forever?+11 Why do you hold back your hand, your right hand?+Draw it out of your bosom* and put an end to them........22 Rise up, O God, and plead your legal case. Remember how the foolish taunt you all day long.+23 Do not forget what your foes are saying.The uproar of those who defy you is ascending constantly. Here we see that Jehovah has other things he prioritizes, to the degree that many God's servants have wondered why God is not hurring to put an end to those who damage his reputation. 2 Peter 3:9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise,+ as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

@JW Insider Thanks, I agree that it is a good idea to have a separate thread for Babylon the Great. I want just quickly again add some thoughts to who or what Babylon the Great is. I agree with the WT that the beast upon which Babylon the Great rides is UN. So that means that Babylon the Great is in control of UN as its rider currently. So then we have to think about who is in control of UN? Naturally the architects behind UN are in control of UN. So that group of people should be Babylon the Great. By doing some research we can determine that they mostly if not all were from New York. So then Babylon the Great is not only those people but the city they live in and from where they project their power. And we know that UN's headquarters are in New York. We have now seen that the Bible says it is "a great city", and a city with great wealth and power and influence both political, economical and "cultural", and a costal city. All those aspects fit New York.

@Tom Henry For peace of mind and rest from too upsetting comments this forum provides a function to ignore some users. Here is the description of the funktion: gnoring a user allows you to block some or all of their content from showing. Users are not notified that you are ignoring them.

We should not go beyond the scriptures. And if a scripture says in a certan way, have we not the right to express in the same way? I believe that Jesus speaks about appointments with his Father. I think they often sit together and speak with each other. Because after Jesus' resurrection he is described in the Bible as sitting just at God's right hand. So exactly who took the decision or did they take it together, or who first suggested to chose Paul to become apostle? Was it Jesus or Jehovah? I don't know the details behind the scene. But the Bible says that Jesus spoke to Paul. So can't we say the same thing? Yet an other scripture about that: 1 Corinthians 9:1 "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 Even if I am not an apostle to others, I most certainly am to you! For you are the seal confirming my apostleship in the Lord." And may I ask you do you appreciate Jesus' high position to which God elevated him after his resurrection and what is he doing having that authority? John 5:22: "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,"

@JW Insider Nice that you are ready to reexamine what really Babylon the Great represent. A real eye-opener for me were all the verses in Revelation 17 and 18 that say it is a "great city". This statement is repeated many times. So in order not to make things complicated let's begin with that, a litteral great city. Revelation 17:18 And the woman+ whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 18:10 They will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say: ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city,+ Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’ Revelation 18:15 The merchants ……..16 saying: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, clothed with fine linen, purple, and scarlet and richly adorned with gold ornaments, precious stones, and pearls,+17 because in one hour such great riches have been devastated!’“And every ship captain and every seafaring person and sailors and all those who make a living by the sea stood at a distance 18 and cried out as they looked at the smoke from her burning and said: ‘What city is like the great city?’ 19 They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning, and said: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, in which all those who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth, because in one hour she has been devastated!’

@"a holy place" The WT article explains how sincere the WT organization is. That would be nice if that was true. Maybe they were sincere sometime in the past. But they proved to me that they are not sincere currently. If you don't know, I must tell you that elders must have instructions from the Governing Body not to listen to suggestions on correcting WT doctrines. Because they told me not to show them any scriptures to prove my points at the judicial meeting. And I have regularly written a lot of letters and sent them to the GB when I have understood new important things they still do not understand. And I have not recieved even once a reply. I just make the conclusion that God uses different vehicles for his purpose in different times. During Jesus' time he used the people that had the religious authority in Israel. Then John the Baptist was sent to turn the people from their sins to righteousness, then came Jesus Christ. And after that were christian congregations formed. And as predicted they would be influenced by Satan and the wheat and the weeds would continue to grow mixed. Under the authority of the Catholic church the 66 books of the Bible were determined. Then later Martin Luther achieved some improvements and started the protestant reformation. After that more separate churches sprung up driving the reformation further. Then Russell came and advanced the reformation and we have the WT organization. What is next? Well WT organization think they are the last reformation before Jesus returns in his kingly power. Sure the WT organization wishes that it would be so. But God foresaw how it would be in the end time. That there would be too much wickedness within God's organization and therefore it will cease to function, because it will be forced to that by earthly authorieties. During that time however 'those with insight will be the source of spiritual guidance, individual anointed. Daniel 8:9 Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east* and toward the Decoration.*+10 It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. 11 It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature* was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.+ 12 And an army was given over, together with the constant feature,*because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success. Daniel11:31 And arms* will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary,+ the fortress, and remove the constant feature.*+“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.+32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words.* But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. 33 And those having insight+ among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days. 34 But when they are made to stumble, they will be given a little help; and many will join with them by means of smooth speech.* 35 And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening+ until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed. The WT organization deceives itself teaching that those prophecies got their fulfilment in the past. Instead it is something that will come over them in the future. And a final refining will occure. And remark "And those having insight+ among the people will impart understanding to the many." Clearly this cannot aply to the Governing Body, because they are not among the people. But the 20000 anointed are spread among the people. Surely many of them will have insight.

No, I am just saying that love can be so great that some are ready to die for for others without expecting any reward. Some atheist could propably do that. Well that thought came to me from apostle Paul. He expressed his extraordinary unselfish love when he said in Romans 9:3: "...... I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites. I am of course fully aware that God will reward his faithful ones. But as I understand mature faithful people to God are primarly motivated by love for God. And only secondly by the reward of everlasting life.

@Arauna I know that some amount of members of "christian" and muslim religions practise spiritism and sorcery, just as some amount of their members are stealing, sexually immoral and commiting other various sins. But the point is that both those religions in general condemn those sins including spiritism. But who is the biggest proponet of moral decay in today's world? Which organized group or society has been directly promoting sin the past 100 year? That would be the mother of all disgusting things. Can you tell which society has been spearheading to normalize homosexuality and other disgusting sins the past 100 years? It is surely not the religions. But they have to different degrees also fallen for the presure from Babylon the Great. So the religions are not the source of all the disgusting things but, they have fallen victims to Babylon the Great to different degrees. The Bible talks about many different symbolic prostitutes. So we have to figure out what each represent. Individual christians are also warned in James 4:4: Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God. An other characteristic of Babylon the Great is according to Rev. 18:24 that it is the cause of wars and killings of christians: "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” Well during our life time we have not seen any serious mass killings of christians in the Western world. But the Revelation book warns that an hour of testing will finally come over the whole earth. Rev 3:10. Then it will become more evident who and what Babylon the Great represent. But knowing who are stoking war today help us already to identify Babylon the Great. Check this article published yesterday on a news site for private investors. That contains clues to identify Babylon the Great. https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/war-pigs-are-finally-revealing-themselves-and-just-beginning Acts 26:14 "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice say to me in the Hebrew language: ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? To keep kicking against the goads* makes it hard for you.’ 15 But I said: ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said: ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet. This is why I have appeared to you, to choose you as a servant and a witness both of things you have seen and things I will make you see respecting me.+ 17 And I will rescue you from this people and from the nations, to whom I am sending you+ 18 to open their eyes,+ to turn them from darkness+ to light+ and from the authority of Satan+ to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins+ and an inheritance among those sanctified by their faith in me.’" Tom Herry what do you say about that? Here some more interesting things conserning apostle Paul. Galatians 1:11 For I want you to know, brothers, that the good news I declared to you is not of human origin;+ 12 for neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it was through a revelation by Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:8 for the one who empowered Peter for an apostleship to those who are circumcised also empowered me for those who are of the nations

It is true that so called pagan religions are often involved in spiritism. Because they invoke demons. The word for spiritism in original greek is quote: φαρμακεία pharmakeía, far-mak-i'-ah; from G5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):—sorcery, witchcraft. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g5331 https://biblehub.com/greek/5331.htm So is it not obvious that there is a clear difference of meaning between wrong beliefs such as immortal soul and actual practice of spiritism? And we should be aware that almost all churches that claim to be Christian forbid spiritism and sorcery, because they know what the Bible says about that. Also Islam strongly condemns spiritism and sorcery. You can make a research and see it for yourself. And don't you agree that the other characteristics describing Babylon the Great in Revelation 17,18 are impossible in their entirety to fit something what is called 'emiper of false religion'? I give you a challenge: Can you to logically explain how every verse in Revelation 17 and 18 correspond to a so called 'empire of false religion'? I think that would be an impossible task.

@b4ucuhear You quoted 1John 5:3 "For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments;+ and yet his commandments are not burdensome," I remember when I for the first time learned about this scripture. I thought, oh that is easy, you don't need to have any special feeling (love), just do it! Preach, go to meetings, avoid serious sins, and try to do all the things WT org suggests. By that I thought I had fulfilled the most important commandment in the Bible to "love Jehovah your God from all your heart, soul and strength". That was what I tried to do more than 15 year from my baptism. I was pioneer for 5 years, ministerial servant, and I had a lot of assignments in the congregation. My faith was based on performing and performance. Now thinking back to that, I realize that I was very active but it was very superficial. Instead of feeling love for God my worship was in fact based on trying to be righteous. I had mistaken that to be love for God in its entirety. Sadly during those years my prayers were very short, and often I could not come with many things to pray about. And I was so busy with keeping up with all what was imposed by the WT organization that I had not time to seriously read the Bible. It was like a choice between reading the Bible or reading the literature and preparing for meetings and for talks. So I think there are many JWs out there like me who have misunderstood 1John 5:3. But later when I begun diligently prayerfully to read the Bible with the aim of making further spiritual progress I remarked countless scriptures about love for Jehovah and Jesus and fellow humans and even enemies. And I remarked scriptures that showed what love is. Finally I understood that love is a feeling and when it is accompanied by accurate knowledge it motivates to do fine works that please God and rejoice people. True you can like a machine do fine works, and be quite righteous. But it will be like forced. Probably people will remark in that case that there is not love behind all those works. Such a person might well appear stressed even irritable doing all those works for God and surrounding people. Apostle Paul had understood that there is a problem when good works are done without the right feeling, the feeling of love. He writes: 1 Corinthians 13:1 "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge,+ and if I have all the faith so as to move* mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.*+ 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others,+ and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love,+ I do not benefit at all. 4 Love+ is patient*+ and kind.+ Love is not jealous.+ It does not brag, does not get puffed up,+ 5 does not behave indecently,*+ does not look for its own interests,+ does not become provoked.+ It does not keep account of the injury.*+ 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness,+ but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things,+ believes all things,+ hopes all things,+ endures all things.+ 8 Love never fails." To make it even easier to understand we could replace Paul's wording 'love is' by when 'you feel love'. Then it would read: When you feel love you are patient and kind. When you feel love you are not jealous. When you feel love you don't feel for bragging, and you not get puffed up,+ 5 and when you feel love you don't behave indecently,*and when you love you don't not look for your own interests, and you don't become provoked. When you love you don't bother to keep account of the injury.* 6 when you have the feeling of love you can't rejoice over unrighteousness, but you will rejoice with the truth. 7 When you love you bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, endure all things. And here is an other scripture showing that love really is a feeling. 1Peter 4:8 "Above all things, have intense love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." Is it not evident that as soon as you feel love to somebody you don't bother to remember of a fellow person's sins. It has been said that it is thanks to love we will be able to endure and remain faithful to God. In this case specifically the feeling of love is the vital force that enables endurance. So as conclusion to this we need to cultivate the feeling of love so that it would abound in us and have accurate knowledge so we could project that feeling in a right way. Philippians 1:8 "For God is my witness of how I am longing for all of you with such tender affection as Christ Jesus has. 9 And this is what I continue praying, that your love may abound still more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment; 10 that you may make sure of the more important things, so that you may be flawless and not stumbling others up to the day of Christ; 11 and that you may be filled with righteous fruit, which is through Jesus Christ, to God’s glory and praise."

The ancient Babylon fits as a paralell because God's people were captive there and even prospered there. Similarly today God's special people Jehovah's Witnrsses have prospered in today's Babylon the Great. The WT organization's headquarters have uninterruptedly been active there since they established in that costal powerful city. But now recently as we all know they have moved out of that costal city. That is a good move because today's Babylon the Great will be sunk into the see, but first burned. And sailors will see it from the sea in horror. One point also why Babylon the Great can not be religions is because she has misled nations with spiritism as says Revelation 18. Beacause spiritism and religion are usually opposed. Religions usually condemn spiritism, so it can not be religions. But there has been a lot of talk about the ruling elite, that they are involved in spiritism through freemasonry and associated secret societies.

I understand this is an interesting question. But we should take apostle Paul's letters as God's word because he was an apostle appointed by Jesus directly and apostle Paul was undoubtedly lead by God's spirit while serving God and Christ and working to help early Christians to progress spiritually. Surely Jesus and God helped Paul to write good letters we can read and learn from today. Maybe our culture deems his way of expressing to be blunt. But I think that is only due to our culture. May be we are too polite? I have heard that even today Israelis in Israel are not so cautious when they speak as people in many parts of Europe, North America and Asia. But my mother tongue is Finnish and when I read apostle Pauls letters in Finnish his blunt way does not disturb me. But when I have read in English I have felt like he is complaining too much. But in Finnish I don't get that feeling. So I have switched to reading the Bible in Finnish. Finnish people are quite good at finding faults and telling that without finesse. So that maybe the cause.

@Arauna Thanks Arauna for trying to help me. And I will try to help you in turn. I see your point that in the Bible Israel was figuratively speaking God's wife on earth, and because of Israel's unfaithfulness it is compared to an unfaithful wife, even a prostitute. But the details in the descrition of Babylon the Great are quite many and many of them are very hard to fit religions in general. There is something else in the world that fit better the detailed description in Revelation 17 and 18. When talking about the symbolism of a prostitute in the Bible, we can find that also the evil city Nineve is described as a prostitute, quite similar to Babylon the Great. Nineve though described as a prostitute was never likend to God's wife. So Nineve was just a prostitute, or not, because Nineve was part of Satans kingdoms. So, you see, I want to say that Babylon the Great, rather than being God's unfaithful wife, could instead be a prostitute whose owner is god of this world, Satan. And like Nineve was a center for an empire, so Babylon the Great could be in the end time the center of an empire, an empire more powerful than USA or Russia or China, an empire that stokes conflicts and wars and everytime doing that grows stronger and wealthier. Just for comparision, please see how much similarity there is with ancient Ninive and Babylon the Great. I don't mean anyone should link Babylon the Great to Nineve. I just want to draw the attention to the similarities, because that could indicate that Babylon the Great represent today a litteral great city, head of a secret empire more powerful than governments. https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/nahum/3/ https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/revelation/17/ https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/revelation/18/

Thanks you all who have commented about love for our heavenly Father Jehovah God. It is hard to be irritated while speaking or reading about love, isn't it? Love is really the greatest feeling. It feels good, it makes one relaxed. While sensing love, fears and anxieties are forgotten. When one feels love, he or she feels content and does not feel need for anything else. A person that feels love would only want that this feeling did not disappear. No wonder therefore why God's word, the Bible recommends to always feel love, because there is nothing better. But that is of course difficult due to all kinds of difficulties. But surely Jehovah God will help us feel more love to Him, and to His only-begotten son Jesus Christ and to people around us if we pray for that regularly in the name of Jesus Christ. Let's dig deeper into this subject.

@b4ucuhear No problem that it took some time to reply. Freely let it take same days or more if needed. I appreciate answers that are well founded on research. And I appreciate that you found quotes making clear that we should honor God's Son Jesus Christ. But a vital question still is, how much? How much compared to the elders, the organization, the Governing Body and Jehovah God. And also a question remains how much should we love Jesus? What I see is that other churches seem to love Jesus so much more than Jehovah's witnesses. Maybe the WT organization purposefully subtly discourages people not to love Jesus to the extent he should be loved? It seems to me that WT organization is so zealous for Jehovah after adopting the name Jehovah's witnesses, that Jesus does not get what he deserves. When I have read the Christian Greek scriptures an hour a day for a month or so, I have been struck by how much space there is for Jesus. The first thought I got was, for example did apostle Paul love Jesus too much? That was my spontaneous feeling having a concience educated by the WT organization. But I had to be logic, and accept that apostle Paul could not be wrong. And that I should instead have as much love and appreciation for Jesus as he had along with deepest love for Jehovah God. For example apostle Paul's letters to Philipians and Colossians reflect his love for Jesus in a remarkable way, in my opinion. I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

@TrueTomHarley I am amused by how far you have misundertood me. I can tell you why I spoke with the elders. And got serious consequences. I am motivated by the essence of Jesus' teaching and following the example of prophets and apostles. But the same thing repeats all over again. Those who try to bring truth are persecuted, always. The essence of Jesus' message is to grow in the accurate understanding of all the biblical truth and make spiritual progress. I think we all can agree on that. So I am here to help you and everyone else to learn something new. Shouldn't you be glad to have an opportunity for that? I am not telling anyone to leave the congregation. And I appreciate the NWT jw.org provides online. And I am glad for all the truths I have learned at the meetings and from the wt litterature. I am keeping those things. But I can not resist a more accurate knowledge that I keep growing in and such things should not be hidden and kept in secret. That would amount to digging and hiding the talant Jesus gave. When I have to chose to please Jesus as Lord or WT organization, the choice is quite simple in fact.

Because I love Jehovah God I wish that he will be sanctified. I wish that everyone would live according to his laws that are for our best. So that Jehovah God could be happy about mankind when he sees that people are truly happy. And that is only possible by living according to God's laws. I wish that Jehovah God could rejoice with mankind in a same way as parents rejoice when their children are happy. If we are thankful to God, then we wish that every other person would also be that. That would result in the sanctification of God. If we love God more than ourselves, then sanctification of God is more important than our own salvation. That means we would be ready to die for God, even for no reward. That would be love in its full sense. But what about God? What is more important for God, wellbeing of righteous angels and righteous people or to be sanctified? WT organization teaches that for God the most important thing is his own sanctification. And the rest is secondary. Can that be correct? Or is that a teaching that make God egoistic or even narcissistic? Is there any real proof in the Bible that God's priority is to sanctify himself? Or is God's priority the wellbeing of good angels and good people? I believe the latter alternative is the right one. What does the Bible say?

@Arauna And a base for so many erroneous WT teachings is the belief that 1914 was a start for many prophecies about the end time, including all what consern time times and half a time. That in turn affect the beasts described in Daniel and Revelation and what really the mark of the beast represent? Those prophecies are very important to understand correctly. And better not to affirm something as absolute truth if it it is not yet fully clear. For example I can not believe WT teachings about: Babylon the Great, the image of the beast, the beast with seven heads in Revelation 13, the two withesses, the mark of the beast, woman and her flight to the wildernes, the disgusting thing and so on.

@TrueTomHarley No, I am not saying that I know all the answers. But the problem with churches and WT organization is that you can not even present a different view point without disiplinary measures. Within Jehovah's witnesses it includes all baptised members. In other chrches it might only include ministers. But probably you would be expelled if you started to speak against trinity from most of the church meetings. Such harsh treatment can not be christian. It is very hypocritical that WT organization says it bases all their doctrines on the Bible and are reasonable and open to new light. And when some member has found something in the Bible contrary to the WT explanations, then we are denied to even discuss our findings even with elders. If we would be wrong they should be able to logically explain using the Bible if we are mistaken. When I told the elders that I have found some flaws in the WT explanations on Biblical doctrines the elders refused to even look at what I had found. That smells bad. It can only mean that they do not have counter arguments to many questions. If they are not sure about what is the truth, why then require total acceptance of those doctrines? That is stupid. I am for what I believe to be true and I want to share that. And you are wellcome to examine my arguments and come with biblical counterarguments. That is how the true knowledge will increase. @Arauna I meant what apostle Paul shortly told the Athenians at that particular occasion. Acts17:30 True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance;+ but now he is declaring to all people everywhere that they should repent. 31 Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge+ the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.” And that is the central message all churches preach. On that occasion Paul did not get into any other biblical doctrines.

@TrueTomHarley There is one thing the world should know that Jesus will return to judge the world and that he has died for our sins. So it is good that all the Chinese get to know it when there are so few JWs. So logically other churches fulfill a purpose despite differences in how they understand scriptures. The same with WT. There are tens of doctines that are falls. But all churches including WT have futhered the spreading of God's word the Bible and at least som basic knowledge about Jesus. As Jesus said weeds mixed with wheat. But I will not join any church. I can not stand false teachings. I would prefer if people would listen to what I teach based on God's word.

I see often here in Sweden where I live other churches preaching and handing out their tracts and books. They use to have a big sign that reads 'Believe in Jesus' and they invite to their church where you can hear more. They preach that Jesus will return. That is a very essential thing the world should know. In China churches are also active and Jesus gets publicity. And now thanks to persecution Jesus' name is spread through that to international news sites. https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-just-escalated-their-brutal-persecution-christians-entirely-new-level

@Arauna Many churches are preaching a such message as did apostle Paul. Acts17:30 True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance;+ but now he is declaring to all people everywhere that they should repent. 31 Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge+ the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.” So when the sign of the Son of Man appears on the sky people will know that it is Jesus comming. So it seems that also churches of so called Christendom are fulfilling Matthew 24:14. And the wheat and the weeds should remain mixed until the end. So Jehovah's witnesses should not be so sure about their leadership. Better would be to "make sure of all things" as we all tried to do before baptism.

Yes, you are diminishing Jesus, because that is where the WT leads you into. They have tricked you into diminishing Jesus. And I do my best to correct your thinking. A common opinion among Jehovah's witnesses is that all glory and honor should go to Jehovah God, even for all Jesus did for us. But that is not scriptural. And WT quote so much from the Old Testament that confuse JWs to fully appreciate Jesus. WT quotes old testament where it says that Jehovah God requires exclusive devotion and that Jehovah God will not share his glory with anyone. Too strict application of these scriptures blocks JWs minds to understand that we should honor and love Jesus after he suffered a sacrificial death on the torture stake. JWs usually think that all the glory for our salvation should go only to Jehovah. But that is not really the case. Because to be fair Jehovah God himself now wants that all, including angels should appreciate what Jesus accomplished by giving his life as a sacrifice in a very difficult and painful way. Because Jehovah God is a fair God he wants that Jesus gets a part of the credit for saving mankind. That is why Jehovah God elevated Jesus to a higher position after he had suffered. And now God wants that people thank both Him and his Son Jesus for salvation. Here are the best scriptures I could find about that in the Bible. Unfortunately the WT has not been able to teach these truths effectively. Instead as I already wrote JWs think that all the glory for ransom should go to Jehovah God. John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,& 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Psalms 2:12 Honor* the son, or God* will become indignant And you will perish from the way, Revelation 5:12,13 11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads* and thousands of thousands, and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” Revelation 7:10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.” Phi 2:8 More than that, when he came as a man,* he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Revelation 5:8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, Hebrews 1:6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” Revelation 1:5 To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen. This does not make Jesus equal to Jehovah. Jehovah God is and will always remain the creator and eternal without begining. And He should be respected as such. But conserning the salvation of mankind, here Jehovah God is clearly not taking all the credit for himself. Instead he wants that his son Jesus gets some serious credit for that. And that is fair, because Jesus suffered tremendously in giving his life as a sacrifice for our sins. Surely all angels in heaven were happy that Jesus took this assignment. Otherwise some other angel would have been asked to do it, I suppose.