b4ucuhear

A little bit of a stretch applying that to the GB don't you think? So we should all be listening to this stranger's voice? Because it seems pretty strange alright. (Can you say: "Not playing with a full deck?") According to her self-written profile, Pearl Doxsey, "Has been chosen to be a light in the world...called to be a prophet in the body of Christ..." That's not to say God can't and hasn't chosen or inspired humans to speak for him. But this isn't one of those...pretty sure

Maybe you should take some time to read our publications to get a clearer understanding of what we officially believe. While I can't speak for the point of view of individuals such as yourself, I can highlight what we are officially taught and what I am aware of myself. This is from the "Insight Book volume 1 under "Good News" which is there for all to see. "GOOD NEWS This refers to the good news of the kingdom of God and of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. It is called in the Bible the 'good news of the kingdom' (Mt. 4:23), 'the good news of God' (Rom.15:16), 'the good news about Jesus Christ (Mr. 1:1), 'the good news of the undeserved kindness of God' (Ac. 20:24), 'the good news of peace' (Eph. 6:15), and the 'everlasting good news." (Re. 14:6)...It's Content An idea of the content and scope of the good news can be gained from the above designations. It includes all the truths about which Jesus spoke and the disciples wrote. While men of old hoped in God and had faith through knowledge of Him. God's purpose and underserved kindness were first 'made clearly evident throughout the manifestation of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death but has shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news. 2 Ti. 1:9, 10...Jesus' Earthly Ministry and His Return. It is noteworthy that, for about six months before Jesus came to him for baptism, John the Baptizer preached: 'Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near,' and when Jesus appeared, John pointed to Jesus as the 'Lamb of Go that takes away the sin of the world.' (Mt. 3:1 2. Joh 1;29). Thus he turned the people's attention toward the long-awaited Messianic King. (Ac. 19:4)...While Jesus was on earth, he and his disciples announced: "The kingdom of he heavens has drawn near." (Mt. 4:17, 10:7). Jesus, anointed as Christ, the King, said to the Pharisees, his enemies: 'The kingdom of God is in your midst.' (Lu 17:20, 21) This was the theme, or central point, of the good news during Jesus' earthly ministry. However, it is not reported that after Jesus' death the disciples proclaimed the Kingdom as having 'drawn near' or as being at hand. Rather, the good news they preached was that after Jesus had laid down his life as the ransom price for salvation, he ascended to heaven and was then sitting at God's right hand. They also preached about Jesus' return at a later time and his Kingdom to come. (Heb. 10:12, 13; 2 Tim. 4:1; Re. 11:15; 12:10; 22:20, compare Lu 19:12, 15)" - end of quote. So the "good news" involves more than one aspect. So to be fair, JW's always acknowledge Jesus' role as Saviour and King and Redeemer and we do that each and every day and several times a day. After all, when we pray, don't we acknowledge Jesus' office in our prayers - praying in his name? We pray that way in our personal prayers, at mealtimes, at congregation meetings, at assemblies, district conventions, memorial, meetings for field service and even when conducting Bible studies with interested ones. So if you are insinuating we are somehow diminishing Jesus in our preaching and daily lives, I would suggest you are not being very honest. Even in the GOOD NEWS brochure that we discuss with people in our ministry, a consideration of Jesus and his role and importance comes before a consideration on the kingdom and is true also of other publications. ( ie. What Does the Bible Really Teach?) So while we do in fact highlight what Jesus and God's Kingdom will accomplish in behalf of mankind, it's a judgment call as to what aspect we may highlight according to the householder. For instance, in North America and much of Europe, there are hundreds of millions of Christians within tens of thousands of denominations. What is one thing they almost all have in common with us today - centuries after Jesus? That we believe Jesus is the Messiah, that he is a king, that salvation is only possible through faith in him, that God's promises are 'Amen' through him, that there is 'not another name under heaven by which we can gain salvation...'" So if our ministry only focused on preaching a message we all already agree with, of what use is it? However, the message regarding God's Kingdom, what it will accomplish, who will benefit and what benefits there will be and the issue of universal sovereignty is largely lost or entirely missing to most people - Christian or otherwise. Jesus didn't put praying for 'God's Kingdom to come' near the top of the Lord's Prayer list for nothing. After all, how many Christians who pray for 'God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven...' know what that purpose is? Is it really to destroy the earth in a fireball? So if JW's highlight an aspect of the Good News (earthly paradise or more...) that is necessary for people to know about, and are unaware of already, what of it?

Actually, God does not "hate that his people be counted." We have Bible precedents on that too. (Exodus 30:11-16; Numbers 1:1-3; Numbers 26:1-4...and how do we know how many volunteers served with judge Gideon if they weren't counted...?) The fact is that David's sin in taking a census was a sin on that one occasion (2 Sam. 24:1-10) but that wasn't usually the case. Why was this an exception or different? The Bible doesn't say even though there is speculation as to why this occasion was different, but I'm not sure we can be dogmatic on it either way. So you can't just "cherry-pick" isolated passages from the Bible and "shoehorn" them into a wrong context ("going beyond the scope of your reference" as they say) and then misapply them. That's what apostates often do, so you should be careful with that. The fact is, there are many good and practical reasons God's servants are/were counted - both then and now. I won't list all those reasons since they should be obvious already and I'm not going to do your homework/thinking for you. So with ample scriptural and modern-day evidence, suggesting that "...the WT Society should stop counting how many JW's there are worldwide," is simply (and I would have hoped, obviously) wrong. Re: "...especially about the 10 years..." That makes two of us. *\_(".)_/* (Actually a lot more than two...). Believe me, this wasn't my idea posted, but if you don't know what I am referring to, it's probably better we keep it that way. "Mum's the word"... shhhhh (finger to lips)

I hope he doesn't get a sliver, or worse yet, athlete's lips

"He just pulls it out of his hat..." I was thinking of another 3 letter word, but sure, "hat." Let's go with "hat"

And who would you identify as being that group of people? Are there just two or three? Or two hundred and three? Two thousand or three? Who are they? After all, everyone claims to be part of Jesus' flock but Jesus clearly indicated that most who claim to serve him would not actually be approved. And how can you expect to "gather together in my name" with them if you don't even know who they are? Not really. With all due respect, I'm still waiting for you to answer my simple question whether many words or few. Take as long as you like. (Well, less than "10 years" anyway, cause you know what happens then...;) Oh, and while we are on the subject, do you also believe that the true anointed will be manifest within 10 years and make the date of the judgment known? And if not, why not? Please back up your answer with scriptural references - especially about the 10 years...

??? No. But that has already been dealt with. No point in rehashing old ground with people who don't want to listen. We don't have any clear examples of how you shouldn't drive a car recklessly over the speed limit either, do we? But we do, as has already been stated, have laws, principles... But you already know that, right? Let's turn that around for a change and give you a chance to explain which flock and congregation YOU think Jesus is head over and how he directs said individuals. It's not enough to snipe from the sidelines. If you've got something better to direct people to, let's have at it. And if the best you can come up with is an anarchy of individual perceptions, let me know so I can start laughing now.

The problem with suggesting that the "elders are under Jesus' full control, power and direction," is that people can get a skewed idea. Imperfect, uninspired men can become "masters of our faith" rather than "good-for-nothing slaves that are doing what they should." Of course, we respect the "arrangement" God has in place for pure worship and give "double honour" to those taking the lead. But that is a far cry from handing all of our personal thinking, choices and decisions over to imperfect men, thinking they are "fully controlled" by Jesus and anything but is being disobedient to him. Jesus and Jehovah have provided direction in his Word as guidelines for how the congregation should be run. But sometimes men in authority go "beyond what is written" and we should use our "clear thinking faculties" to be able to discern the difference. The fact is, that if one is too lazy to study and read God's Word or are gullible, you can start acting like you are in a cult - even when you are not. Child molesters (yes some have been "elders") get away with their actions for decades - not because Jesus is controlling them to do that, but because children are confused or awed by the authority they have. Even otherwise, at times, men in authority in the organization have assumed too much authority and used that authority in a way they are not authorized scripturally to do. People need to know the difference. "Whole-souled devotion" to Jehovah does not mean whole-souled devotion to imperfect men - even when we respect what authority they have as part of Jehovah's arrangement and offer scriptural obedience. Why? One reason is that some of these men are not who they appear to be (whether they be "wolves in sheep's clothing," "wicked men and imposters," "rocks hidden below the surface..." There is no level of authority within the organization where such men have not been found.) Should we be obedient to them? We need to know the difference when such men (i.e.. apostates or immoral men) direct things not in harmony with Jesus' direction as recorded in the Bible. Also, that way we won't be stumbled when Jesus apparently gets dates and teachings wrong and has to back-track on what he directed/controlled before. No, the reality is that we still have to use our brains.

Pretty good answer

The word "control" comes up because of what was stated in the workbook for the week of November 18-24: "In Jesus' right hand: The stars are under Jesus' full control, power and direction. If someone on a body of elders needs correction, Jesus will see to it that this is done in his own time and way." One of the WT references for Rev. 1:20 in the Study Bible adds: "the 'stars' are in Jesus' right hand - within his power, control, favour, and protection. Therefore they are "accountable" to him. By heeding his words to each of the seven congregations, present-day elders see how they can handle similar situations." So, if Jesus controls all the elders like some sort of spiritual remote control by means of holy spirit, (as some may think), then everything that takes place within the organization should be perfect, because Jesus is perfect and would use holy spirit in a perfect way. Why is that of interest? Because too many things happen within the organization (even the early Christian congregation), that are clearly not "controlled" by Jesus - unless he is deliberately controlling them to do bad things. I won't get into detail, but things happen that shouldn't happen and even very unscriptural things happen. My description of the factors that come into play regarding that interplay, attempted to explain the discrepancies that clearly exist if you are not living in a "snow globe." I had mentioned 1 Tim. 5:24 because it plays an important role in helping to understand why bad things can go on within the congregation for decades. All one has to do is look at the way that scripture is true historically to get a better understanding of how it applies today. The fact that elders have a measure of autonomy is hinted at by the phrase: "By heeding his words to each of the seven congregations, present-day elders see how they can handle similar situations." So elders make their decision based on "heeding his words" which are contained where? In the Bible - and so are accountable to Jesus as to how they use the authority he gives them. They aren't mindless robots on remote control that can never make mistakes (I know that is an extreme description, but the fact is, that some - too many - people have a mindset that is very close to that. To illustrate the difference, consider how Jehovah and Jesus deal with humans. When Jehovah directed Adam to name the animals, he gave him the authority to name them and Adam used his personal discretion as to what to call them. Of course, there would be limits or boundaries to the authority granted Adam (for instance he wouldn't be allowed to call every animal "Jehovah" - right?) But Jehovah didn't control his freedom of choice - even when Adam decided to be disobedient. Or to illustrate further: CONTROL: mom tells Junior to buy everything on a predetermined shopping list. One pound of this, 5 ounces of that...only get the potatoes on sale, bring back a receipt and the change, be back in an hour. AUTONOMOUS AUTHORITY: mom tells junior to buy what he would like for supper and she will make it. (Boundary): Just make it healthy and include the main food groups. So Jesus and Jehovah give us laws, principles and boundaries. But they don't remote control our/elders' decisions by means of holy spirit. And as stated earlier, holy spirit can at times be hard to quantify. It played a strong influence in the anointing process, but there were still things early Christians - even miraculously inspired Christians - didn't understand, disagreed with each other about and got wrong. Nothing has changed that way. Not everything Bible writers wrote was included in the Bible canon either. In fact, one of the "gifts" described at 1 Corinthians 1:10, is the ability to miraculously "discern inspired expressions." As the Study Bible comments: "Christians also needed guidance to discern which letters and writings should be circulated among the congregations and to discern which would become part of the Bible canon." As for your statement: "If Jesus doesn't want to control human behaviour and decisions...why do you think elders have that right?" Answer: They don't have that right. Elders don't have the right to make people's decisions for them. Their role is to encourage people to make decisions that are in harmony with what is directed in God's Word. And to keep the congregation without spot and blemish - even if that means disfellowshipping unrepentant individuals. If Jehovah and Jesus never took away freedom of choice from even Satan and Adam, what makes you think he would direct elders to do that? Jehovah wants people to serve him willingly out of love. Not because they are remote-controlled robots. However, his servants were always warned that with freedom of choice, comes responsibility and accountability. The "blessing or the malediction."

That's a new one. Funny though.

You can answer your own question by reading the actual Bible passage you are referring to and ask: Was Jesus saying he "controlled" all behaviour and decisions in the congregation? Or was it that the elders were responsible to use the authority granted to them in harmony with his direction and God's Word? What was going on in the congregations even while he was speaking? (Answer: apostasy, immorality, lukewarm Christianity...) Did Jesus cause or control that? Or what happened soon after that? (Answer: A great apostasy that started from within the congregation). Can we rightly blame Jesus for that as well? How do other factors come into play, such as freedom of choice; imperfection; recognizing (or not) the leadings of God's spirit; scriptures like 1 Timothy 5:24... Added to this is the fact that even while men in authority use their authority to judge others, they themselves are judged and held accountable.

An oldie but goodie. Especially when it's appropriate. Its not about "strength of faith or hiding." It's about not stupidly wasting time on nonsense. 2 Tim. 2:23 "Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing they produce fights. 24 For the slave of the Lord does not need to fight...showing restraint when wronged, 25 instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him to do his will." 1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, 4 he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and dates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, 5 constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth..." I couldn't have said it better myself. That is a cop-out explanation/repsonse. For a better one read the Insight book under Apostasy to show you what a scriptural view of apostasy is - including within the Christian congregation. And how it is proper and scriptural to avoid such individuals. Both Jesus and Russell were considered apostates by apostate religion - which in effect is a compliment. It's like the world telling us we aren't doing the right thing in behaving like them and yet we are doing the right thing in not behaving like them. It's a matter of perspective. The scriptural perspective fortunately, doesn't rest on your personal opinions.

Thank-you for being honest enough to acknowledge that. Some posters here only see from dark glasses and do not appear to be honest even with themselves. So on your point above, we are in agreement. To be fair, "shunning," "excommunication," "disfellowshipping" isn't just a part of JW's beliefs. In fact, other religions feel they have a scriptural basis for doing just that. How much they implement it is up to them. But there is a practical aspect to this as well. It is one thing to have "doubts" and not be fully convinced about certain things - even disagree, but another try to "draw disciples away after themselves" - or basically start your own religion based on your own personal thoughts. Right now, we enjoy world-wide unity in thought, belief and action. (even though there may be variances as to who believes how much and what - as evidenced on sites such as this). If someone is so disillusioned with our beliefs that they want to leave, that is a choice they can make. Some quietly leave with no fuss and just leave off. But others are very vocal and opposed within the congregation and are more disposed to tearing down than building up - causing dissensions. (Some on this site I would consider such and some I consider outright apostates who never have anything good or constructive to say.) To them I would say: "Stop wasting my time and yours and get a life. If you don't like it go." It's that simple. But others, based on the many changes that have been made, (changes that are often in line with their thinking all along) are willing to take a wait and see attitude, with the faith that if it's that important, Jesus can ensure changes are made at a rate we can handle or understand. (And NO, I don't believe that "Jesus controls everything that goes on in the congregation." I believe the other explanation given, that he grants authority and we are accountable as to how we use that authority based on God's Word. What an absurd conclusion to draw. But that is not surprising since I now believe you are an apostate and I shouldn't be wasting my time responding. My point btw, was that we shouldn't base our dedication to God on a date - whatever date that may be. Of course, it may not stop some from doing just that. But don't be surprised if I rarely if ever respond to your apostate views again.

I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say here. I agree that we put too much emphasis on human-inspired dates - including 1914. I also get how the Scribes, Sadducees and Pharisees of that time/generation were described in Matthew 12:38, 39 (and elsewhere): "...some of the scribes and Pharisees said: "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you." 39 In reply he said to them: "A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign,..." But Matthew 24 has Jesus' faithful disciples asking a legitimate question with pure motives, unlike the Pharisees' request for signs to trick Jesus or for their own lack of faith. True his answer in vs 4 was: "Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many." He then follows in vs 6 with "Your are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet." Jesus then continues with an ongoing list of events including in vs 45 of the appearance of a "faithful and discreet slave." So my question to understand your point is: Are you lumping in the entire prophecy as dealing with events that might "mislead" them? (You had stated: "Jesus warned us NOT to look to wars and pestilence and earthquakes as part of any SIGN that could be used to inform us about the parousia") Or... was Jesus specifically cautioning them not to be misled by the false Christs he refers to directly afterwards in vs 5? And continuing on with other events that would form part of the sign they actually asked him about. It would seem redundant to warn them not to look to these signs if they weren't on alert to look for them in the first place. Why even bring it up? Also, who and at what point would a faithful and discreet slave manifest themselves and in what way? I'm not clear on your reasoning here as well. If Jesus was referring to his rulership over early Christians and onward, who would be filling that role during the centuries the Catholic church et al held sway for the parable of the wheat and weeds? I'm not saying I agree or disagree, rather I am not clear of where you are coming from as to this part of the discussion.

We should all be concerned with what we preach as being the honest truth - that's what "truth" seekers do. But it is also fair to say that while God knows absolute truth, Bible truths have been gradually revealed from the first prophecy in Gen. 3:15 regarding the seed (and other prophecies) until now. The Patriarchs, Jews, early Christians and JW's today have always had to revise their understanding/expectation of certain things they had assumed/believed to be true as more information was forthcoming. Some see that as a bad thing - being "wrong" about certain beliefs or expectations, while I see it as a positive/progressive trait - which is what one would expect from truth "seekers." The fact that JW's have made changes and continue to do so shows they are humble enough to admit their mistakes and correct matters. (That assumes as well that other changes will likely be made as they are confronted with more realities. Some dates have gone by the wayside and maybe even 1914 could be discarded eventually. Who knows?) Dates are of little concern to anyone who intends their dedication to God to be forever. In fact, on studies with other people, I qualify these types of things as our "present understanding" organizationally, but if a change in thinking takes place don't be too upset about it. It's part of the growing process all humble servants of God have rolled with. On other things, like war, hellfire, Trinity, Christmas...I'm certainly more definite about. "Going around frightening people with an 'end is nigh' message and a 'only baptized JW's will be saved' message is not teaching truth to anyone." First of all as you should already know, our preaching work is not to go around "frightening people." If that was our purpose, we would be preaching what almost every other religion on earth you would have a choice of going to would preach: Hellfire. So we are different in that respect. What we preach is the gospel or good news. Good news about what? As everyone knows, it is the "good news of God's Kingdom" that we preach in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations before the end comes. (Matt. 24:14). Also to make disciples. (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 28:28, 30) We even look at Armageddon as a positive in clearing the world of Satan's system and those who aren't interested in doing God's will in favour of those who are. We are informing people they have a choice. There is nothing new there: Deut. 11:26-28: "See, I am putting before you today a blessing and a curse 27 the blessing if you obey the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding your today 28 and the curse if you do not obey the commandments of Jehovah your God and you turn aside from the way I am commanding you to follow..." There are many other Bible passages in the same vein. "To pretend that JW's door to door witnessing is doing God's will, well I'm sure you know it isn't." If you can't be honest then don't project that on us. Of course we believe witnessing is something Jehovah's "Witnesses" should be doing. While you may disagree with our message you can't say we don't "walk-the-walk" when it comes to witnessing/preaching about God's Kingdom and what it will accomplish. It is one of the main focuses of our organization. While we may not know the "day and hour" and can't predict the future regarding dates, the message about God's Kingdom to us, is a clear focus in the Bible. So if you don't think we are doing God's will as to our door-to-door work, then you are welcome to your opinion - but at least be honest about it. I for one, DO believe we are. 2 Tim> 4:2 "Preach the word; be at it urgently in favourable times and difficult times..." Romans 10:14 "How in turn, will they hear without someone to preach..." Matt. 10:7 As you go, preach saying: 'The Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." Heb. 10:15 "How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out?" Acts 10:42 " Acts 10:42 "Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness..." Luke 9:2 "And he sent them out to preach the Kingdom of God and to heal." ...

Well said. The sooner we stop "going beyond the things written" and stick to our Christian mandates the better. The fact that we have been totally wrong about numerous other dates (every other date?) should give anyone legitimate pause for concern and to be skeptical that not only might the hallowed date of 1914 be wrong (including the fact that certain expectations regarding that date never materialized) but whether Jehovah even blesses that presumptuousness. We have lots of more important things to accomplish than to pin our hopes on the prognostications of well-meaning, but uninspired, imperfect men who sometimes go beyond what they have been authorized to do. Making predictions is not part of our mandate. Proclaiming what Jehovah and Jesus actually tell us in his Word are. Yes, I believe Jehovah is using his organization and the GB is doing an admirable job in organizing his people to accomplish many great things. But since it is (generally) forward-moving, it should not surprise us or cause us to get too excited about discarding things we may have held dear - as in the past - and may need to let go of now. Maybe 1914 is one of those things. Although we each individually may have "core" truths we adopt as proof this is the right organization, I personally don't believe 1914 should be included in those core truths - or any artificial, man-inspired date for that matter. Maybe we need to put 1914 on the "date pile" along with the others promoted as being significant. Even if per some unexpected chance the date turns out to be right, should our relationship and dedication to God be based on a date anyway - or either way? I think too much focus has been place on dates anyway. Stuff will happen when Jehovah says it should happen. We should be more concerned with whether we will be ready for it.

Boring to you or not, it's a valid point that is not made less valid by you trying to minimize it as "boring." Many people claim to be "Christian," as God's Word said would be the case. And in fact, there are tens of thousands of different Christian religions alone. So handing yourself a "Christian" label doesn't add much weight to your argument. But it appears you have your own personal ideas that are not entirely in line with any denomination or "church." (I don't know that for sure, but it is looking that way). If that is the case, you seem to assume that your version of Christianity is the true one and everyone else (or at least JWs) is lacking/wrong somehow. That all of a sudden you pop up out of nowhere with your personal diatribe and that gives you credibility how? That Jehovah God is dealing with you personally and you alone have the truth? I think there's a pill for that. I wouldn't go too far beyond the scope of your reference here. I think the operative word here is "blindly." I don't recommend anyone follows any imperfect individuals blindly. The Bible counsels otherwise as do our publications at times. We are encouraged to not just read the material on new understanding but take the time to "understand" the reasoning why any changes occur. True that reasoning isn't always supplied in great measure, but it is good practice - even if we may feel we have to wait for a better explanation in time. Actually, I'm not on this site all that often and so haven't noticed any positive input from you before. As for the rest of what you think will happen, I respect your right to see things according to your understanding, but I also respectfully disagree. What happens if, 10 years from now, JW's and the GB continue to flourish and be productive (despite their failings) and none of your prognostications have come true? Awkward, no? All that time on the internet wasted. On the other hand, to be fair to you, what if Jehovah sees it necessary to make the changes you envision? I guess we'll just have to roll with them... won't we?

Associated comments state: "Notice that in examining the experiences of God's people at this time, it appears that while the 42 months represent a literal three and a half years, the three and a half days do not represent a literal period of 84 hours. LIKELY, the specific period of three and a half days is mentioned twice (in verses 9 and 11) to highlight that it would be only a short period compared with the actual three and a half years of activity that precede it." So it may well be that a contrast is being made regarding the time periods mentioned. But, on the other hand, I also see that one time period (three and a half days) is not consistently rendered as a literal time period whereas the three and a half years is understood to be literal - both time periods within the span of a few verses in the same chapter of Revelation 11. While I understand their reasoning for that - there was nothing to suggest anything of significance happened on the three and a half days, it does seem arbitrary - to make things fit. But for now, until they come up with more details, I'll roll with it.

"We "MUST" obey God as ruler rather than man." To me, Jesus' words here sound like more than just a general "standpoint" (or point of view by definition) that can change depending on the opinion/situation of the observer. I don't want to get into an endless semantic debate of what "standpoint" means to you or to me, since I may be misunderstanding your line of reasoning here. (I am assuming English is not your first language and so while you may have what you are thinking clear in your mind, it may be that articulating those thoughts may lose something in translation. It also may be that I am too slow to pick up on what your are trying to say at times - sorry ) I think of Jesus' statement here similarly to his statement at Matthew 22:21: "Pay back, therefore, Caesar's things to caesar, but God's things to God." To me that was a clear command/directive that was to be in place at all times - more so, especially as long as Satan's systems is in place, along with the proviso of "relative" obedience as quoted above of "obeying God as Ruler rather than man." If, you prefer to think of both of these statements in terms of a principle, I would agree with you there as well. I think you answered your own question here. How so? You had mentioned that "Advice not going to higher education coming from "spiritual place" as God's instruction through the GB." Well, I think we have explored in great detail how the GB is not miraculously inspired, not infallible, are imperfect, make mistakes in both judgment and understanding... (Although we do recognize this "arrangement" as being from God - even as the nation of Israel had an imperfect "channel" including Moses and the Levitical priesthood that was to expound and teach the nation of Israel.) True, more often than is desirable, the leaders of the nation of Israel made mistakes and were even corrupt at times. But when was it ever acceptable to leave off worshipping Jehovah through his arrangement just because imperfect men didn't do what was expected of them? When would it have been OK for example, to join themselves to the false religions of surrounding nations that worshipped false Gods or even start their own religion - even though Israel's leaders were at times corrupt, immoral, apostate..?" This was Jehovah's arrangement for pure worship and everyone from the top down was accountable to him as to how they chose to use their freedom of choice. Even so, they had to respect his "arrangement" for pure worship - especially since it was to be found nowhere else. So back to the point at hand. You answered your own question by stating that "...counsel/advice/recommendation in this matter..." So we are not equating the counsel/advice/recommendation of the GB on par with the miraculously inspired commands and principles from Jesus Christ himself as head of the congregation. (i.e.. obey God as ruler rather than man...") I will qualify that by honestly acknowledging that some JW's act like they are in a cult (even though we are not) or even seem to worship an organization. But it is also honest to acknowledge that you will find such people in every religion - (especially one of the major ones in particular.) That seriously could be said of anyone who claims to worship God - including yourself. So should we all just throw our hands up and walk away? I don't see you doing that. We have at least, the Bible record which by faith, we can "see and hear" the same things the apostles did. I could also include modern-day examples as well, but I doubt you would WANT to accept any of them since you seem to have an agenda anyway. I am not interested in opening another door for endless debate regarding "what is truth?" John 18:38. Rather, I would suggest you do a word study on the word "truth," and see for yourself what it involves. A few verses to start you off: John 4:24 God is a spirit and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth. John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 17:17...your word is truth. 1 Tim. 2:4 ...and come to an accurate knowledge of the truth. John 18:37...I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice."... As for the rest of your opinions regarding "truth" and how it changes or whatever... I really don't have time to get into that. Sorry. That is not to mean there is not a viable response, rather that it will take much more time that I feel will just be wasted. Fair enough if you prefer to view it that way. But this, as well as other examples, show that what has sometimes been viewed as "new light" has not proven true at all. I can't speak for anyone else, but I do not feel mindless unquestioning obedience or acceptance of ongoing teachings is a mark of loyalty to God. It is a mark of loyalty to an imperfect uninspired organization. Still, I haven't come across any organization (religious or otherwise) that has MORE going for it. I believe there are many strong positives that set us apart - not perfect and lots of room for improvement, but I expect that will come - if gradually. After all, it has taken thousands of years to shed the blatantly false and God-dishounoring doctrines of nominal Christianity. If you feel your religion is better, let's hear about it and then we can scrutinize your beliefs as well - (instead of constantly sniping at us from the safety of a remote computer terminal with nothing positive to say.)

From '66 WT: (Just to throw something else into the mix as to the original post) "Questions From Readers ● At times there are changes in viewpoint on Biblical subjects discussed in the Watch Tower Society’s publications. We speak of what we believe as “the truth.” But does “truth” change?—W. P., U.S.A. Really it is the Bible that speaks of beliefs that are in harmony with the Scriptures as “the truth.” At 2 Peter 2:2 the worship based on such beliefs is termed “the way of the truth.” Yet concerning that “way of the truth” we read at Proverbs 4:18: “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” So we do not know all there is to know. In fact, even when the post-Armageddon system of things is ushered in we will not know everything. Throughout all eternity there will always be more to learn. This is indicated by what the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 11:33: “O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and past tracing out his ways are!” It is to be expected, then, that at times there may be changes in viewpoint. Our basic belief may be sound Scriptural truth, but there may be some details that we did not fully understand in the past. In time, with the aid of Jehovah’s spirit, we get those matters cleared up. For example, a few years ago we had a fine series of articles in The Watchtower on the “superior authorities.” (Issues of November 1–December 1, 1962) Before those articles were published, we knew and taught that Jehovah is the Most High, and that Jesus Christ is the second to Him in power and authority. We knew that we should be law-abiding persons, but that, when there was a conflict between man’s law and that of God, we would obey God as ruler rather than men. Those basic truths are the same today as they were before; they have not changed. However, by careful scrutiny of the Scriptures we have come to appreciate that certain Bible texts ought to be applied in a different way. For example, we realized that the “superior authorities” mentioned in Romans 13:1 are, not Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, but the political rulers. That is also true of Titus 3:1 and; 1 Peter 2:13, 14. Yet the basic truth is unchanged. Our viewpoint toward God and toward the State is the same as before. Similarly with our study of the resurrection. We believed in the resurrection of the dead before our recent series of Watchtower articles (issues of January 15–March 15, 1965) on the subject and we believe in it now. We also believed that 144,000 would be raised to heavenly life with Christ. We believed that many more would be resurrected as humans; that some of them would be persons who had faithfully served God in the past, and that others would be those who had lived ‘unrighteously.’ We also believed that a great educational work would take place when they would be raised. Those truths have not changed. But now we see that, according to the Scriptures, more are to return than we expected. So, rather than setting aside the truth of the resurrection, it has been magnified, and our appreciation of Jehovah’s love and mercy in providing for the resurrection has been enhanced. This is in direct contrast to what occurred among certain men of whom the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy, as recorded at 2 Timothy 2:18: “These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” Those men no longer had any hope in the resurrection; they believed that what was in the past was all there was to it. But they were setting aside the truth that Jesus had taught. Likewise in Christendom there have been changes in viewpoint; but they are rejecting the Bible as myth and setting aside its moral code as out-of-date. What a tremendous difference between what is taking place among them and what Jehovah is doing for his people in order to bring our thinking even more closely in line with his inspired Word of truth!" As stated above: "Our basic belief may be sound Scriptural truth, but there may be some details that we did not fully understand in the past. In time, with the aid of Jehovah’s spirit, we get those matters cleared up." I'm hoping we get more away from claiming some human ideas/dates (that go beyond the things written), as divine revelations/new light from God. I believe we are getting there, which is a far cry from what established Christendom accepts: i.e.. thinking in war God blesses one side over the other of nations in Satan's system; that God has people tortured for all eternity in a fiery hell; there is no real need of a resurrection since all humans have an immortal soul that automatically goes to heaven of Hell when they die; Trinity...and on it goes. Nor do JW's claim infallibility as hundreds of millions believe of the Pope and similar views (although not official) to protestant leaders as well. Yes, I do believe we have a lot to work on, but I don't see any other religions offered on this site by the "nay-sayers" as a better alternative. And even if they don't believe other religions have the truth either, having their own viewpoints, they might as well be a religion unto themselves - an army of one - since even among themselves they don't see eye-to-eye on everything either. That doesn't mean I believe that means we need to believe we are correct on everything we currently believe. As stated in the article quoted above, we should accept there will be clarifications and changes in understanding - in some ways our understanding is fluid and that's a good thing, (despite how some people view it.) That is a huge difference from believing blatantly unscriptural doctrines from apostate Christianity - some of which we at one time accepted ourselves organizationally. I know some people would be highly agitated if some "sacred cow" date/idea turned out not to be so sacred. But remember, we didn't dedicate ourselves to a date and while we respect the imperfect, uninspired "channel" we accept guidance from today, we don't and shouldn't worship an organization any more than the Israelites were to worship Moses and Aaron. We worship the creator, not the creation.

Oh brother! I should have taken my own advice instead of wasting my time on a pointless back-and-forth with people who think "getting the last word in" somehow indicates they have the upper hand in a post. I respect you right to disagree with whatever I or anyone else says, but this droning on and on is pointless. I just saw topic that went on for over 50 pages, with no end in sight. I'm not at all interested in investing that much of my time arguing points for which both sides seem intractable. So why bother? I am honest enough to admit that I have seen things that shouldn't be happening within the organization, but I am also honest enough to admit that much of what you infer is utter nonsense. 2 Tim. 2:... "But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy for they will lead to more and more ungodliness...these men (or women) have deviated from the truth,...and they are subverting the faith of some. despite that, the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, 'Jehovah knows those who belong to him,'...Now in a large house there are utensils not only of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for an honourable use but others for a use lacking donor. So if anyone keeps clear of the latter ones, he will be an instrument for an honourable use, sanctified, useful to his owner, prepared for every good work...Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight..." I won't be surprised if you or any of your ilk continues ranting on-and-on here, so "if I'm not there, start without me." That's all I have to say to conclude by involvement in this thread. It is counterproductive and I've got better things to do.

John 17:14-16 The comments in the study Bible on John 17:15 say: "Jehovah...could even separate his people physically from the rest of the world and place them in a a safe and peaceful environment. However, regarding his disciples, Jesus prayed to his heavenly Father: "I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one." Jehovah has chosen not to take us "out of the world." Rather, it is his will that we live among the general population of this world in order to proclaim his message of hope and comfort to others. (Rom. 10:13-15) But, as Jesus implied in his prayer, by living in this world, we are exposed to "the wicked one." Disobedient mankind and wicked spirit forces cause much pain and anguish, and Christians are not immune to distress." 1 Peter 5:9 So while we recognize we have to live in a world under Satan's control, it doesn't mean we should go out of our way to expose ourselves to potentially dangerous influences and bad association. There are of course necessary things we must do to survive and provide for our families - such as employment, which as you correctly pointed out, can mean rubbing shoulders with worldly people and attitudes whatever level of education we choose. But even on that, we are selective so as to minimize our exposure to potentially harmful influences. It may include being selective as to what type of work we are willing to accept, or whom we work with/for. Many caring parents know they can't completely eliminate bad influences at school for instance (since kids have to have some type of schooling and it is beneficial), but they may choose to be selective as to whom they allow their kids to spend their extra time with. So living in the world, we recognize there are certain things we must do whether we like it or not. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't exercise caution and be selective as to what we choose to involve ourselves in. I could rationalize that I need a job to support myself and my family - a legitimate and necessary need, but would I choose to work for the mafia to do so? No, I would be selective and cautious. I agree with you. I often have the same problem on both phone and tablet. Fortunately I've recently discovered that we can edit and make corrections. I wish I had known that earlier before "auto-correct" ran roughshod over my posts. As for my level of education, I provide as little information as possible to identify me. As a "whistleblower" on some things, there would be an opportunity for "blowback" from men in authority who have something to hide. I don't even post what country I'm from. So when I have written that at times there are men in authority who act as wickedly as people in the world and hide behind their authority, I know exactly what I'm talking about. That's why I don't buy into the "Jesus is in full control of everything..." stuff, because I know some of the stuff that goes on is about as unChristlike as you can get. He doesn't cause/control it just because he allows it for a time. I also question some of the decisions men (not Jesus) have made when I am in possession of all the facts - especially when removal or disfellowshipping has as it's objective to silence whistleblowers who expose their corruption. I have never been DF'd, but I know if they thought I was spilling the beens on them, that's exactly what would happen. So I don't mention any names either that would tip them off. Just letting people know that you can still maintain your faith and relationship with God despite the evil that (some) men do - and get away with for now. Sorry if this rant is off topic.

Fair enough and I agree with you on that. There is always a risk - even when we try to do the right thing, pray, follow scriptural principles, avoid bad areas... I'm sure you would also agree though, that some actions are riskier than others. i.e. jumping off a cliff is riskier than jumping off a curb - (unless you are jumping off the curb into traffic) For instance, if you know an area of your city is known to have a high crime rate - especially at night, you might feel it prudent to avoid that area when you have a choice. True you may not be attacked, but the chances of that happening to you are significantly greater if you expose yourself to that environment. Not to flog this... (OK yes, I am flogging it ) One more example. You might not get cancer from smoking cigarettes, but the evidence shows your chances are greater of getting it. And in fact, even if you felt you were willing to take the chance yourself, would you be willing to set that example for your kids by smoking at home? They would see your example and possibly feel it's fine to follow your example, in turn putting them at greater risk of both addiction and cancer. That's the point I was clumsily trying to make. Personally, per se, I am not a dogmatic "opposer" of higher learning such that I would take it upon myself to punish others for choosing that option. But I would also candidly admit from real-life examples I have seen, that it poses a higher risk to spiritual objectives than other grades of schooling (which of course, as I recognize, can come with their own risks.)

??? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning, but my response would be: "When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone." James 1:13. Other than that, I would suggest you look up "non sequitur" in the dictionary. Romans 5:10 "For if when we were "enemies" we became reconciled to God..." So God views individuals alienated from him as "enemies" but with the same hope and attitude we have, that they become reconciled to God. We view non-JW people as potential brothers - don't hate them. As Jesus taught us, we love even our enemies - yes, even in times of war. But more than that, MUCH more than that. Worshippers of Jehovah have always had "enemies." The faithful patriarchs, the nation of Israel and faithful men therein, Jesus Christ, early Christians, faithful men who were burned at the stake for producing Bibles, modern-day worshippers of Jehovah... As the recent broadcast mentioned, JWs are experiencing persecution on an unprecedented scale. Matthew 24:9 "Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name." John 17:14 "I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." John 15:18-20 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it has hated you...for this reason the world hates you...A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you..." Mark 13:13 "And you will be hated by all people on account of my name. But the one who has endured to the end will be saved." Frankly I could go on, but you get the idea. Do yourself a favour and do a word search on all the times "enemy" is used in the Bible and in what context. The historical, firsthand experience of JW's in countries around the world makes it clear that many non-JW people have acted as enemies, whether it be totalitarian governments, different religions, tribalism, and just plain "haters." And why should that surprise us? What would you expect from a world whose God is Satan the Devil? 1 John 5:19 "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." Luke 4:6 "Then the Devil said to him: 'I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish." Revelation 12 - all of it but vs 17 should suffice: "so the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus." In a nutshell: if you, while living in Satan's system don't find you have any "enemies," you may want to seriously consider whose side you're on. I will accept responsibility for your misunderstanding of the point I was making. I wasn't very clear I guess. Sorry about that. It was my mistake. I was NOT making the point that you have to be poor to be happy. in fact, a poor person can be more materialistic than a wealthy person. But if you look to material prosperity as the ultimate gauge of happiness, you will be on a never-ending quest. Wealthy people are rarely satisfied even when they have an abundance. I was making the point that even poor people can be happy. Wealth does not in of itself equal happiness - which is the false hope some have. Psalm 37:16 "Better is the little of the righteous one than the abundance of many wicked ones." Luke 12:16 ""keep your eyes open and guard against every sort of greed, because even when a person has an abundance, his life does not result from the things he possesses." I believe the word he used in describing your scenario, was "vanity" or "futile." But that's another discussion...