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We agree on that point (others too I see). Everything we see now in fulfilment in Bible prophecy shows we are reaching a climax. It is in relation to this I have a practical question I think is relevant here. At Ephesians 4:5 we are told that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" - as opposed to thousands of conflicting beliefs all claiming to be the true religion (I know, we are in that group too). I also notice (I think) in the course of our discussions and your posts, that while you seem to have views in common with other religions, since you don't subscribe to any one religion, you are kind of doing your own thing. (I'm not being sarcastic here and I apologize if it sounds that way). But let's say, you have a "unique" perspective - you are basically one guy in your views - although you share a commonality with others on certain points. So my question is: since we both agree world events (as described in Matthew 24 for instance), show we are reaching a climax, what about the most important part of Matthew 24? Sure it talks about earthquakes, food shortages. wars...before the end comes, but the most important part of that prophecy is in verse 14, the positive one: "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." How do you expect to manage that obligation on your own at this admittedly late stage in the game? Or do you feel you are throwing your lot in with every other Christian organization that claims to be preaching the Good News of God's Kingdom even though they may radically differ in what they feel God's kingdom is? Personally, I feel the ones that are really doing that on a global scale are JWs. That is why we exist primarily as an organization. It's not for tea parties, bingo, garage sales or chicken dinners. We are organized to continue (what we believe) is the commission for all true Christians. I know others SAY they do that (to an extent). But the ONLY people who have EVER come to me to preach the the good news of God's Kingdom are JWs and I've been around for quite and have been all over the world. Mormons are the only other people who have called on me and out of respect for their taking the time to do that I have always have invited them in for a respectful discussion. But one thing is for sure. They aren't preaching the gospel. That's not to say, other religions don't have their missionaries and have success doing that though - credit where credit is due. But to do that work is a huge task involving billions of people and billions of hours preaching to them in hundreds of lands and hundreds of languages. Now to be fair, you may have your own perspective on this, but it is something I always consider when we have for instance, apostates from within our organization who try to draw disciples after themselves. I always wonder: If someone followed them, then what? That preaching work still has to be done - at least to the extend God determines, and it won't get done sitting in someone's living room listening to some solo act nit-pick on some detail he disagrees with us on. (Not referring to you here even though I know you disagree on certain points). The fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 is a tall order and not one someone could attempt on their own at this late stage of the game.

Point taken and as I had mentioned before, we have neither a miraculous ability to read hearts (or predict the future) nor the authority to judge who is or is not a good hearted person (or even the potential to be so.) This is what we feel is part of our ministry: to be "God's fellow workers" in reaching as many good hearted people as God draws to him with the good news of God's kingdom as well as providing a warning of God's impending judgment. Of course, a mere profession/appearance of love of God is not always a true indication of the heart. "If anyone says 'I love God and yet is hating his bother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom her has not seen. And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother." (1 Jon 4:20-21.) As you had astutely stated: "When you love others as yourself, you are in effect loving Jesus and God as well." We might add: "By this all will know that your are my disciples - if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:35) You notice this new commandment to love one another (that would identify Christ's true followers), isn't full of man-made creeds and formulas. It is a simple observable truth that would be evident to any who love the truth. No need to compare hundreds/thousands of differing/contradictory teachings. There are many religions/religious people that claim to worship God but would you have a scriptural basis for saying that people who pray to the same God to help kill their brothers - (even of the same religion) - on the other side of a political fence in warfare are demonstrating that identifying characteristic? Aren't we commanded to love even our enemies? As you correctly quoted "You must love your neighbour as yourself." Romans 10:2,3 says: "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God." I would both agree and disagree. I would agree there are good people in many if not all religions - those are the ones we look for. But looking at the Bible record, how would you answer: Is it a matter of how we want to worship God? Or is it a matter of how God wants/demands to be worshipped? Is it up to us to decide what God will accept as true worship? Or is it up to him to decide what is acceptable to him? Ironically, many of those you suspect of being true Christians would likely not agree with you that it's not important what organization you are with - (forgive me if I misunderstand you on this point). The fact that there are so many different organizations, all claiming to be the true one testifies to that. Again, looking at the Bible record, did it matter what organization/religion you belonged to? The Israelites were given the law that kept the contaminating influence of other religious ideas and forms of worship at bay/separate. In fact, those other forms of worship (including child sacrifice, temple prostitution, worship of false Gods...) was something "detestable" to God and it was a capital offence to participate in it. Later when the early Christian congregation was formed, was it acceptable to remain under law and not accept Christ? No. What about today then? Revelation describes false religion as a harlot for the immoral relationship she has with the kings of the earth. (Rev. 17). Rev. 18:4 says: "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. for her sins have massed together clear up to have, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind..." See also 2 Cor. 16:17; Isa. 52:11; 2 Tim. 3:5. Matthew 7:13,14 "Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it: whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."" So while I tacitly agree with you that true Christians aren't limited to a group of people or organization (for now), there will come a time when decisions will have to be made, based not on how WE want to worship God, but rather how HE wants to be worshipped.

I just did a little fact checking on the "facts" you use to support your contention. Foxe as a historian The author's credibility was challenged as soon as the book first appeared. Detractors accused Foxe of dealing falsely with the evidence, of misusing documents, and of telling partial truths. In every case that he could clarify, Foxe corrected errors in the second edition and third and fourth, final version (for him). In the early nineteenth century the charges were taken up again by a number of authors, most importantly Samuel Roffey Maitland.[42]Subsequently Foxe was considered a poor historian, in mainstream reference works. The 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica accused Foxe of "wilful falsification of evidence"; two years later in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Francis Fortescue Urquhart wrote of the value of the documentary content and eyewitness reports, but claimed that Foxe "sometimes dishonestly mutilates his documents and is quite untrustworthy in his treatment of evidence"... Objectivity and advocacy Foxe's book is in no sense an impartial account of the period. He did not hold to later centuries' notions of neutrality or objectivity, but made unambiguous side glosses on his text, So, not all are convinced with the sources or even "facts" you put forward. In fact, I was surprised when looking to find how little I knew myself and how little agreement there is on the matter. The estimates range from zero deaths (suggesting it was all a hoax) to 500 million deaths. Of course I don't subscribe to either of these extremes, but one thing is for certain, there is no overall agreement as to the actual number, which varies from none to many. Naturally, I see, you selected ("cherry picked?") the one that supports your contention. Foxes' "Acts and Monuments" was written in the mid 15th century and was framed primarily as polemic against the Catholic church much later than the time we were discussing. Foxe in no way was "close to the action" so to speak and as a Protestant put it together because he had an "axe to grind" with the Catholic church at the time, well over a thousand years after the "fact." I respect that, and while I disagree with much (most actually) of what you are saying it seems to me you are sincere and have put much effort into being a student of God's Word. We should all be doing that. As a side note and not to get too much off topic, (since I don't plan to sit in front of my computer with Micah Ong for the rest of my life - although I may still challenge you on some of the stuff you have written - if I have time), I have a question: Matthew Chapter 24, describes events that would indicate a period of time indicating Christ's return and the end of the conclusion of system of things/final time/end of the world...) That period of time, as you are well aware, would be indicated/accompanied by obvious world events, (false Christians - no cheap shot here please; wars and reports of wars; food shortages; earthquakes in one place after another...true Christians being objects of hatred by all the nations. So my question to you is: Do you think that is happening now? Do you believe we are living in the last days according to the sign Jesus gave his disciples? (Let's keep 1914 out of it to keep things simple please and thank-you).

Martyr: def 1) "a person who willingly suffers death rather than reduce his or her religion 2) a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice" The fact that someone is described (legitimately or not) as a martyr does not of itself qualify that one as being an anointed Christian, called to be one of the 144,000 described in Revelation. As Paul stated "...I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge..." (Rom. 10:2) You can look at it any way you choose to, but our understanding according to Jesus' description of true wheat-like Christians being oversown with counterfeit weeds soon after the death of the apostles may have some bearing here. Not only that but the explicit warnings that a wholesale apostasy would develop shortly after the early Christian congregation was established should indicate to the unbiased reader that there would be many false Christians and few true ones. Soon apostate Christianity was the order of the day. So does that fact that someone dies for their beliefs make them a true Christian? There are lots of different religions now that do not agree on how God should be worshipped and yet are willing to die for their beliefs. Does willing to die in man-made wars, crusades, inquisitions or even persecution, automatically qualify them as acceptable to God? If so, then the suicide bombings and terrorist activity of those wiling to die for their beliefs must also qualify them as acceptable to God, no? The fact is, I can't quantify all who are selected by God or not and neither can you.

It is fair, (as you say) that miraculously inspired prophets in the Bible can and often do, predict future events. And of course, that is the definition that is applied by people who are not JW's and take issue with us. But that is not the definition we apply to ourselves. Why? Because that is not the only definition or attribute that can qualify one as a prophet in doing a prophetic work. JW's are not miraculously inspired and so WE ALREADY KNOW many of the expectations put forward have not taken place as expected. We can't even predict the weather tomorrow (I'm sure you're surprised to know that . We also acknowledge that while we often say "prophecy is best understood after it has been fulfilled," we even get that wrong at times. So why aren't we all throwing our arms in the air and rushing over to Micah Ong to save us from our folly? Because Micah Ong doesn't know what he is talking about and misapplying what millions of others already know. Here is a description of our view that is not from the "outside" - nose pressed against the glass - looking in: "The Greek 'prophetes' literally means "a speaker out (Gr., pro "before" or "in front of," and 'phemi,' "say") and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source. (Compare Titus 1:120. Though this includes the thought of a predictor of the future, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction. (Compare Judges 6:7-10). Nonetheless, living in harmony with God's will requires that the individual know what Jehovah's revealed purposes for the future are so that he may bring his ways, desires, and goals into line with the divine will. Hence, in the great majority of cased, the Biblical prophets did convey messages that free directly or indirectly related to the future." it-2 prophet. So in "making known messages attributed to a divine source (God - not the educated guesses regarding dates and whatnot - however well meaning - from the GB) we are in a sense doing a prophetic work. For instance, we can confidently say that Armageddon is going to come and therefore do a warning work of an event yet future - a message recorded in God's Word by miraculously inspired faithful servants. But even though we may try to make educated guesses as to the details of how it will happen, we really have no miraculous ability to predict these things. In fact, we also recognize that when elders are said to be "appointed by holy spirit," it is due to the fact (ideally) that they measure up to the qualifications inspired by holy spirit in God's word. No human on earth has a miraculous ability to read hearts, minds, motives... But there is a responsibility or onus that anyone who cares about others takes seriously. An illustration: Scientists may feel from the "signs" they see, there seems to be a strong indication an earthquake is about to take place. They have no miraculous ability to predict the future, but nevertheless, they give the order to evacuate because that, to the best of their knowledge, would be the prudent course of action. If it turns out no earthquake takes place, at least no lives were lost - although it would likely be inconvenient. If anyone believed they had good reason to take a certain course of action - even acknowledging they can't predict the future, why wouldn't they at least give a warning? On the other hand, what if it did happen? Now we know certain things for sure, because they are set out in God's Word. But regarding the details that are not specifically spelled out in God's Word, (i.e.. dates and related info), we can't claim miraculous inspiration to fill in those details. It's true there have been well meaning assertions that out of eagerness have tried to fill in the blanks. And when I see descriptions of how we are told things will take place with details that are not specifically set out in God's Word, I take it with a grain of salt because the case could be made that historically we have been often mistaken. Even things we have studied for years regarding "types and antitypes?" All out the window. Oh well, that's progress for you. I knew to expect that and I'm pretty sure there will be other stuff to fall by the wayside. But even recognizing an imperfect and incomplete picture of things yet to take place, it doesn't stop me from knocking. By-the-way, what religion are you that you feel is so much better? And don't try a clever dodge by saying "Christian."

You are going beyond the scope of your reference here and that is not an assertion that fairly represents the belief of JW's- we are not in a position to judge. Never-the-less, I understand where you are coming from and your view represents the view of others as well. The prevailing opinion of others is that everyone goes to heaven, so it is understandable that you would view Revelation 7:15 from that perspective. JW's believe that those who will rule as Kings and priests will perform those services in behalf of someone else. Those "meek that shall inherit the earth" as God had originally planned for mankind. So it is natural that our interpretation would reflect that. If you believe that the ultimate destination of all Christians is to go to heaven, it is understandable why you view things the way you do. It is not the intention of most posters here to get into long and protracted debates and arguments that both know will not change either of their minds. Although some do.

The quote you have chosen to support your argument is from an article that is almost 60 years old. I find it hard to believe that you are not aware of more recent articles. Here goes: Questions From Readers When John saw the “great crowd” rendering sacred service in Jehovah’s temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?—Revelation 7:9-15. It is reasonable to say that the great crowd worships Jehovah in one of the earthly courtyards of his great spiritual temple, specifically the one that corresponds with the outer courtyard of Solomon’s temple. In times past, it has been said that the great crowd is in a spiritual equivalent, or an antitype, of the Court of the Gentiles that existed in Jesus’ day. However, further research has revealed at least five reasons why that is not so. First, not all features of Herod’s temple have an antitype in Jehovah’s great spiritual temple. For example, Herod’s temple had a Court of the Women and a Court of Israel. Both men and women could enter the Court of the Women, but only men were allowed into the Court of Israel. In the earthly courtyards of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, men and women are not separated in their worship. (Galatians 3:28, 29) Hence, there is no equivalent of the Court of the Women and the Court of Israel in the spiritual temple. Second, there was no Court of the Gentiles in the divinely provided architectural plans of Solomon’s temple or Ezekiel’s visionary temple; nor was there one in the temple rebuilt by Zerubbabel. Hence, there is no reason to suggest that a Court of the Gentiles needs to play a part in Jehovah’s great spiritual temple arrangement for worship, especially when the following point is considered. Third, the Court of the Gentiles was built by the Edomite King Herod to glorify himself and to curry favor with Rome. Herod set about renovating Zerubbabel’s temple perhaps in 18 or 17 B.C.E. The Anchor Bible Dictionary explains: “The classical tastes of the imperial power to the West [Rome] . . . mandated a temple larger than those of comparable eastern cities.” However, the dimensions of the temple proper were already established. The dictionary explains: “While the Temple itself would have to have the same dimensions as its predecessors [Solomon’s and Zerubbabel’s], the Temple Mount was not restricted in its potential size.” Hence, Herod expanded the temple area by adding on what in modern times has been called the Court of the Gentiles. Why would a construction with such a background have an antitype in Jehovah’s spiritual temple arrangement? Fourth, almost anyone—the blind, the lame, and uncircumcised Gentiles—could enter the Court of the Gentiles. (Matthew 21:14, 15) True, the court served a purpose for many uncircumcised Gentiles who wished to make offerings to God. And it was there that Jesus sometimes addressed the crowds and twice expelled the money changers and merchants, saying that they had dishonored the house of his Father. (Matthew 21:12, 13; John 2:14-16) Still, The Jewish Encyclopedia says: “This outer court was, strictly speaking, not a part of the Temple. Its soil was not sacred, and it might be entered by any one.” Fifth, the Greek word (hi·e·ron’) translated “temple” that is used with reference to the Court of the Gentiles “refers to the entire complex, rather than specifically to the Temple building itself,” says A Handbook on the Gospel of Matthew, by Barclay M. Newman and Philip C. Stine. In contrast, the Greek word (na·os’) translated “temple” in John’s vision of the great crowd is more specific. In the context of the Jerusalem temple, it usually refers to the Holy of Holies, the temple building, or the temple precincts. It is sometimes rendered “sanctuary.”—Matthew 27:5, 51; Luke 1:9, 21; John 2:20. Members of the great crowd exercise faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. They are spiritually clean, having “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, they are like proselytes in Israel who submitted to the Law covenant and worshiped along with the Israelites. Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for each one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times!

The Watchtower states: To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites." Watchtower 1979 Nov 15 p.27 So in essence you have to be attached with the anointed class to have Jesus as your mediator and benefit from Jesus Salvation. The scriptures teach otherwise: Romans 3:21-30 "But now apart from law God's righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets; 22 yes, God's righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus. ... 29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations? Yes, of people of the nations also " Romans 6:23 "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Hebrews 7:25 "Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them." You said: "The Jehovah's Witness Doctrine teaches that only the anointed have a covenanted relationship with Jesus. Therefore the New Testament only speaks to the anointed. The great crowd have to go through the anointed to benefit from the new covenant." Here is a more accurate explanation of our understanding with reference to that: BENEFICIARIES OF THE NEW COVENANT 14 Upon learning that the 144,000 are in the new covenant, some may have thought that only these benefit from it. Perhaps they thought so because only anointed ones are to partake of the emblems at the annual Memorial of Christ’s death, where the wine represents the “blood of the covenant.” (Mark 14:24) Recall, though, that those in the new covenant are to be associates with Jesus as the “seed” of Abraham, by means of which all nations will be blessed. (Gal. 3:8, 9, 29; Gen. 12:3) Somehow, through the new covenant, Jehovah will fulfill his promise to bless all mankind through Abraham’s “seed.” 15 Jesus Christ, the primary part of the seed of Abraham, serves as High Priest, and he provided the perfect sacrifice that makes possible forgiveness of error and sin. (Read Hebrews 2:17, 18.) Yet, God long ago pointed forward to “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Ex. 19:6) In natural Israel the priests were from one tribe, and the kings were from a different tribe. So how would this promised nation of king-priests come about? The apostle Peter directed his first letter to ones who were sanctified by the spirit. (1 Pet. 1:1, 2) He referred to such ones as “a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.” (1 Pet. 2:9) Anointed Christians in the new covenant will thus serve as underpriests. Think of what that means! We daily struggle under the influence of sin, which still ‘rules as king.’ Those serving as underpriests will have had a similar experience. (Rom. 5:21) They will be aware of how it feels to make mistakes and grapple with guilt. So along with Christ, they will be able to sympathize with us as we overcome sinful tendencies. 16 At Revelation 7:9, 14, the “great crowd” are seen “dressed in white robes,” which implies a clean standing with God. To be in line to survive “the great tribulation,” that great crowd is now being formed. Hence, even now these gain a certain righteous standing before God. They are being declared righteous as Jehovah’s friends. (Rom. 4:2, 3; Jas. 2:23) What a benefit that is! If you are part of the great crowd, you can be sure that God is willing to work with you as you strive to remain clean in his eyes. 17 What happens to the sins of those whom God favors? As noted earlier, Jehovah said through Jeremiah: “I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.” (Jer. 31:34) God does this for the anointed on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice. In a similar way, God can forgive the sins of the great crowd on the basis of the same “blood of the covenant.” Jeremiah’s saying that God would “remember” sins no more does not imply that He would have a memory lapse and simply not be able to recall the sins. Rather, it indicates that once Jehovah has administered any needed discipline and forgiven a repentant sinner, God throws that past sin behind Him. Think of the sins King David committed involving Bath-sheba and Uriah. David received discipline and felt the consequences of his sins. (2 Sam. 11:4, 15, 27; 12:9-14; Isa. 38:17) Yet, God did not keep holding David accountable for those sins. (Read 2 Chronicles 7:17, 18.) As indicated in the new covenant, once Jehovah has forgiven sins, based on Jesus’ sacrifice, He remembers them no more.—Ezek. 18:21, 22. 18 Accordingly, the new covenant highlights a wonderful aspect of Jehovah’s dealings with sinful humans, both the anointed, who are in the covenant, and those with an earthly hope. You can trust that once Jehovah has dealt with your sins, he will not bring them up again.

You will notice you are not getting much response to your post. Be assured that it's not that you have made such a compelling argument that nobody can refute you. Rather, because of so much erroneous and dated information, it's more of a matter of "Where do I begin?" You may be confusing our understanding with respect to approach to God in general and Jesus' role as the mediator of the new covenant in behalf of anointed Christians. For a more current explanation you may want to read: w95 6/1 pg. 30 "Questions from readers" - although more current information is available according to which aspect of the arrangement of prayer you want to consider. You have also included references that go back as far as the 1800's - most of which isn't part of our beliefs now. As you likely already know, JW's view our understanding of the Bible as one that is not static, but changing according to "increased light." You may choose to disagree with that, but never-the-less, it is what we believe. Therefore, although information you have referred to may validly show that we have changed our view on certain things, it does not follow to assume we do not have the truth because of said changes. In fact, to many, it confirms we have the truth (or at least are on the right track, with the assumption there may be further revisions ahead). A simple unbiased view of the God's dealings and release of information in the Bible record from Gen. 3:15 onward shows a progressive, ongoing revelation or release of information of God's will to mankind. We're cool with that. And your point is...? Does "trinity" appear in the Bible? According to what appears to be your reasoning, since the word is not in the Bible, you should not believe in the Trinity. The absence of a word or expression cannot be used as a blanket assertion to confirm/deny it's validity. It may or may not - to be both honest and fair, more would need to be considered. It is nothing new in the Bible that God has had representatives who "claim special guidance" from him. Moses, Aaron, the Levitical priesthood, angels, Bible writers themselves, Jesus Christ, Governing Body, Faithful and Discreet Slave... And logically, what is the alternative? In our ministry, talking to literally hundreds or thousands of individuals, we come across people who feel they don't need something like a "governing body." They feel holy spirit teaches them. But if you talk to as many people as we do, you will find that if you ask a hundred different people who claim to understand God's Word because holy spirit teaches them, you will get a hundred different answers if you cover enough material. Sure, they may all believe in the "trinity," but ask them what a prophetic passage means and you will get answers all over the map. There is a reason, there are tens of thousands of Christian religions alone, all claiming guidance by holy spirit, but is beyond the scope of this response do a comparative study of them. It is true in any organization historically, even among Jehovah's chosen people at the time, the Israelites, that men in authority have made bad decisions without justification with bad results. The same is true with imperfect individuals today. Some have acted in good faith but imperfectly and some others have acted wickedly. That doesn't change what OUR relationship with God should be. "But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God." 1 Corinthians 11:3 We sincerely believe that, although at times, some of our number may seem to lose sight of it.

I try not to be too judgmental on what others choose as to entertainment, dress and grooming... according to their conscience, even though I may not agree with what they find acceptable. (Obviously there are things that are a "no-brainer" that go beyond what is acceptable even under the "conscience" umbrella. It shouldn't be an "anything goes"...) Personally, (others will disagree), I try not to read too much into every detail either (although I also recognize that little things can add up to big things over time). Making human rules and regulations instead of principles tends to be unhealthy in my experience, because they often reflect the personal opinion and consciences of the ones making them, over others' - even when well intentioned. Sometimes strong opinions of what others should be doing can border on being the "masters" of their faith. I also know the other side of the coin, on several occasions having experienced demon attack and harassment which was absolutely terrifying. (No Casper the friendly ghost there). But in no case was it possible to associate these events with my choice of entertainment, even though at the time I was just studying and coming into the truth. I guess the short of it is, that I don't make lists and rules I think everyone else should be doing according to my personal conscience. I try to lead by example and show how well it works out in the hope that others may imitate my faith, to their personal benefit. (I was consciously trying to avoid the use the word "I" so much here because "I" didn't want my personal opinion to be the focus. But there was no other way to convey these thoughts without it's use).

A very timely reminder for our times. Especially as many of our brothers and sisters face lying accusations and injustice at the hands of governmental men in authority or those who should be dispensing justice. Many of these men know what the right thing to do is but allow themselves to be pressured by others and are led by fear of man, knowing they are condemning the innocent. Think of what a parallel situation might be in a spiritual sense today. While not being punished by being thrown into prison or executed in a physical way, being unjustly condemned on the testimony of lying witnesses certainly happens to SOME people in a spiritual sense today. At times because the individuals behind this are men of "position" who have the authority to make it happen those aware of it may be led by fear of man or simply don't have the authority to make things right themselves. In Jeremiah's case, when men in authority wanted to kill him or keep him quiet for exposing their wickedness, his friends came to his aid at risk to themselves - they did what they could at least. That wasn't the case with Naboth who actually was killed. So situations may differ - even as Ahab was spared the consequences of his wickedness by his repentance. There are too many scriptures to list that warn us that these things will happen as well as real life Bible examples that should serve as a warning to us. But when they actually do happen, some of us are so focused on the threats from the outside, that we may be ill-prepared for the dangers and threats to our faith that MAY come from the inside. The fact is, that sometimes what masquerades as "discipline from Jehovah" is no more from Jehovah than was Jeremiah's "discipline," or that of other faithful men. Usually, we aren't in a position to know all the details so it is unfair to make broad critical/negative assumptions/assertions. But without question, as we are warned about, it happens. So if you ever find yourself targeted by "wicked men and imposters" and framed by lying witnesses, or even abandoned by those who should know better because of fear of man, we should "humbly continue to worship Jehovah, knowing it is impossible for Jehovah to be unfair." Outright lies, wickedness and orchestrated corruption are NOT from Jehovah, the God who cannot lie. It is from men - men who may claim to represent God and who may have authority but act like wicked men and imposters. It should be noted strenuously, that even as was true in the Bible record preserved for our day, that these individual experiences are the exception rather than the rule. Most individual Israelites didn't experience these things, but some did. Same holds true today. Never let your relationship with Jehovah be determined by the faithless acts of (some) others. And humbly wait on Jehovah the God of Justice to make matters right in his own time as he will do for other faithful men of faith who have lived and died.

Usually, letters from JW's are left after repeated attempts to speak to an individual in person have been unfruitful. That being the case I don't see a problem of directing people to a source of information they might find helpful/beneficial. To illustrate: if I felt I had something important to give to another individual and I was unable - after repeated efforts - to reach them in person, I would feel obliged to at least direct them to where they could obtain it for themselves, if they so desired. No pressure. No obligation. In fact, it is one of the things I wonder about Christians in general who believe they have the truth that leads to everlasting life: Why aren't they at my door, taking their valuable time to help me? I may choose to disagree, but if you believe you have something that would help others, wouldn't it be the loving thing to want to share it with them rather than keep it to yourself? Isn't that what Jesus did and directed his followers to do? If it is the will of God and Jesus' command and example to go and convert people or at least preach the gospel, that is good enough for me. (Matthew 28:19, 20). But that is not the only reason. Nobody pays us to do this work - (unlike the leaders of almost every other religion). We don't get brownie points either. Very few other individuals actually know how much time we personally spend in our ministry. So what reason is there? Love for God and neighbour - even when our neighbours don't see eye-to-eye with us. And yes, last I heard, most JW's have done their homework and actually looked for the truth and so can personally say that it has indeed brought "joy and fulfilment" (and purpose) to their lives. The fact that some have been contacted by letter is usually a last resort when other avenues to speak with an individual in person have been exhausted. But you are of course, welcome to spend your valuable time to come to my house (or to other's) to share the joy and fulfillment your faith has brought to your life. I would respect that. Also, although you may personally may feel "this current method of mailing our tracts" is not of interest to you, that's fine. We aren't looking for people who don't want to hear the message we preach. We are looking for people that do. Yes, mailing tracts may not be our preferred method, but it does at times achieve results - just not with you apparently. Good point! May I suggest that one way to show "love to others as Christ loves us" is by not killing them? Many Christians not only fail to love their enemies but don't even have that self-sacrificing love among themselves - yes, the love Jesus said would identify his true followers, as you have astutely pointed out. So what country would Jesus pick up a gun for? What country would he kill Christians for - even though they may be of the same faith/religion? By what twisted logic could that be considered showing love to one another? So clearly, by the very criterion you have proferred, most religions are not acting like Christ's disciples I call it the "legends in their own minds" syndrome. People who are only exposed in any meaningful degree to their own belief systems, tend to use what they have already accepted as the touchstone by which all others are judged. ("...it makes so much sense when you're in it.") That's why I never give much credence to "lists of beliefs" that supposedly help others to determine who has the truth (including ours). They always create their own ballpark of rules or criterion that favour themselves. As such, they may be intimately familiar with all the proof texts and reasonings that "prove" their religion is right. However, a very important distinction needs to be made here. By virtue of their face-to-face preaching work (not just mailing tracts), JW's are exposed to many opposing points of view, which may, in turn, have their own "evidence" to support those views. At times, individual JW's may not have considered a certain perspective before and the evidence has to be weighed in order to return with an answer. So to be fair, JW's usually know both sides of the story, not just one. I believe JW's are exposed to more individual/religious points of view than anyone. So if there is anyone who has a "trial by fire" as to considering different beliefs or point of view, I submit JW's at or near the top of the list. "Nobody?" Would that include Jehovah God and Jesus? It would be far too much to include in this post how often both God and Jesus condemned/punished the wrongdoing, religious error, hypocrisy, wickedness...of people who claimed to be religious/god worshippers in the Bible. I'm pretty convinced Jehovah and Jesus have the right to "tell others they are doing it wrong" and if you condemn what God condemns, who can rightly say you are wrong to do that? At times it may be a matter of interpretation, but often, when it comes to religion it is much more blatant than that. It can be outright corruption. You had stated that: "We all worship the same God, we just have different ways of worshipping Him and different practices...my current place of acceptance and trust in what I don't know...and trusting that is okay..." Frankly, it would be hard to know even where to begin here. One thing I know, is that you will have a hard time convincing JW's that John 4:22-24 doesn't apply here: " You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know...Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth." There were many other religions around when the Israelites were God's people, but they were not acceptable (including possibly child sacrifice). That is why the Mosaic law was a separation to - among other things - keep the worship of Jehovah pure and acceptable. Likewise with the formation of the Christian congregation. It DID matter what you believed. Jews had to leave the form of worship/religion God no longer approved of and become Christians. Likewise today. Babylon the Great does not have God's favour and it is good to keep in mind the warning expressed at Matthew 7:13-16: "Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it. "Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. by their fruits you will recognize them." Eph. 4:5: "one Lord, one faith, one baptism..." There are many, other scriptures and lines of reasoning that could be included here, but again, where does one begin? As a final note: I'm not really sure as to who is being responded to here. I am quoting "Kurt" since it is his post, but I'm not suggesting he is the author of the letter(s) being responded to here.

Col. 4:6 "Let your words always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should answer each person." Heb. 12:2 "as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Some of our spiritual family have endured difficult, faith-testing situations and the hope ahead is what has helped them through difficult times. They kindly and lovingly try to do what they can to help keep that hope alive in others with comfort from the scriptures they themselves have received, so that others can endure as well. That is a scriptural approach that Jehovah held out for his own son. Jehovah was undoubtedly pained and certainly wasn't minimizing the pain and suffering his son felt. Yet he knew Jesus would be strengthened and helped to endure by "the joy that was set before him." We are repeatedly encouraged to do the same. "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our trials so that we may be able to comfort others in any sort of trial with the comfort that we receive from God." 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4.

cuhear Yes! Of course, a title should be in capitals I learned in school. Correct? When scriptures have it in caps I see and use it. Hope that is what you are referring to? Bible Speaks ??? i agreed with everything you wrote. I wasn't making a correction or disagreeing in any way. As explained above, I was simply drawing attention to something that when reading our publications may have confused some people as to why the difference, especially as it relates to our newer understanding of the passage. To put it another way: If "the word of God" as expressed in Hebrews 4:12 were referring to a book, (the whole Bible) - as a noun - "word" would have had a capital "W." But it doesn't. "word of God" as expressed here is referring to God's promises, yes, as often expressed in the Bible, but not the whole Bible itself. That is different from the way we used to view it as shown in JW Insider's post. People may be confused when our publications historically have used that passage to allude to the Bible and using a capital "W" "Word of God" to make the point, when in fact the point made by that passage is to God's promises - an understanding which updates our previous understanding/application.

Good explanation. When in our publications "The word of God" is used in an extended sense referring to the Bible (as a book which contains promises of God and other information in written form) Word has a capital "W." But when quoting the actual passage referring to God's promises themselves, it has a small "w" - it may be confusing to some to see the difference.

@Bible Speaks I am so happy to see you have endured. But not only endured, you have risen above the injustice and hardships you have experienced in order to be a source of encouragement and strength to your brothers and sisters - I really enjoy and appreciate your "Bible Speaks" posts and find them encouraging as well. I know well "not believed at all" and "nothing was ever done." If you look in the Bible record, as you already know, some of our faithful brothers and sisters in times past saw justice soon afterwards. However, for others it took years or even decades. For others still, they did not see justice in their lifetimes. (1 Tim. 5:24) We do what we can and then as you properly mentioned, "leave things in Jehovah's hands." That doesn't always mean that Jehovah is slow in responding however. Since he doesn't force any shepherds to act appropriately in behalf of his sheep, at times the fault lies with men in authority who "don't want to get their hands dirty in order to keep Jehovah's organization clean" - the path of least resistance. Just remember, as was true in Job's case, "we are a spectacle to men and to angels." So even if no other human on earth is aware of you pain, your (and others') faithful example under trying times give a universal answer. One of my favourite scriptures to keep in mind is also one we all know well: "Be wise, my son (or daughter), and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me." Your faithfulness never goes unnoticed or unappreciated.

Job's faithful example in the face of hard-to-understand tests of faith to this day remains a remarkable and universal answer to Satan's charges regarding human integrity under test. I love this passage not only for Job's example, but for how much it is a source of strength and encouragement for those relatively few who face similar tests of faith in modern times. The thing that makes his integrity such a source of encouragement to me today is not the physical loss, pain and suffering he endured. Yes those things were bad, but those types of difficulties are also faced by humans in general - even those who don't believe in God. They face the loss of loved ones, loss of financial security, false friends... No, what is so special about Job's example and what made it especially trying was that he endured these things under the mistaken belief that he was receiving unjust "discipline from Jehovah." And yet Job knew he was innocent. This has a modern counterpart, although rare (as was Job's case). Today at times, faithful brothers/sisters have received what is described as "discipline from Jehovah," and when they proclaim their innocence, they are seen as proud, rebellious - not humbly accepting said discipline. Only one thing wrong: they are at times completely innocent. Of course, errors in judgment can be expected when you are dealing with imperfect humans who at times don't follow scriptural principles, have all the facts or the ability to miraculously read human hearts - or even when emotions come into play. However, Job's example becomes more poignant when Satan is really behind the lying charges, when the whole affair seems really to be an orchestrated machination of the Devil. At times, men administering this "discipline from Jehovah" have been outright lying to cover up serious wrongdoing of themselves or friends. When "wicked men and imposters" with authority manipulate/orchestrate an attack on innocent individuals in order to protect themselves, and these same men are said/believed to be representing Jehovah and administering discipline on his behalf while removing or even disfellowshipping individuals to silence them, it can appear as if Jehovah is "disciplining" them unfairly. Yes, believe it or not, these things happen at times within Jehovah's organization and I have been on committees that had to reinstate such innocent individuals who for years were disfellowshipped based on lies. True, very few of our brothers and sisters will face this level of corruption from "shining stars in Jesus' right hand." But for those that do, Job's example in the face of such hard-to-understand or even hard to believe tests of faith are a faith/life saver and we can be glad that our loving heavenly Father has had the foresight to include these and other examples for our benefit today - both in a general sense for most and in a very specific sense for a few. That makes personal study, prayer and meditation so critical at this late stage. Don't ever take it for granted.

It would be hard to underestimate the value, relevance and importance of Romans 15:4, 5 as we advance farther into the time of the end. None of us should be taken by surprise or blindsided. We have been warned and prepared. Jehovah hasn't left us unequipped to deal with hardships and tests of faith from both the "outside" and from within his organization. These are real examples from real people and were preserved for our benefit today for a reason - (despite serious opposition to stop it). While most Israelites in general didn't experience the individual hardships and tests of faith that have been highlighted iand preserved in God's Word, some did back then and some do today - at least in a spiritual sense. Whatever our situation,these faithful examples provide us with the comfort and hope that with similar reliance and trust in Jehovah we also can endure to the end for salvation.

Thank-you for your response it is encouraging to see others maintain their faith in the face of situations that may stumble most others. That is my world too. I totally agree that there are cases where direct evidence is not shareable. And of course few would experience these things themselves anyway and would have a hard to believing them - let alone deal with them. So why be too specific (at least they can tell themselves that it is something they read on the internet and is probably not true - and not be stumbled by what they can't rationalize). I agree with your statements above and to be sure, I have always done what was my moral obligation as to bringing attention to these matters directly and following the requirements set out both in God's Word and the clear instructions from the F&DS. Including applying Matthew 18 where appropriate. So in further reference to your very astute observation, I realized the blow back I would receive but have not been "...willing to dishonestly apologize and repent for speaking the truth." As Job stated: "It is unthinkable on my part that I should declare you men righteous! Until I expire I shall not take away my integrity from myself!" I learned decades ago that once you have done your part, fulfilling your obligation before God to keep the congregation clean, the ball is in their court and you just have to leave matters in Jehovah's hands. Otherwise you may find yourself disfellowshipped. To be clear, my intention is not to use a semi-anonymous forum to bring attention to mistakes, although that does happen. But when I was experiencing these things, there was no one who I could discuss my feelings with who would understand, let alone believe me - and I didn't want to go around talking about these decidedly negative matters. It is true to say that in some cases, it seemed the only ones I could really identify with were individuals like Jeremiah, Job, David, Joseph, Paul, Jesus...They became my "friends" in faith-testing times. Everyone else it seemed lived in a Disney World where these kinds of things can never happen because Jesus is micromanaging all the elders in his right hand - and "The son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all "things" that cause stumbling and people who are doing lawlessness." (Matt. 13:41) But the reality is that people are stumbled. Does that mean the angels aren't doing their job properly? (In fact, our elder body had to reinstate one brother who was wrongly disfellowshipped for years - yet always maintaining his innocence. It appeared in proclaiming his innocence, he was "not accepting discipline from Jehovah" - but it was all a lie. That happens too often). What could be these "things" that are collected out? Is it individuals we hear about every few years being disfellowshipped? Could be, but "things" being collected out that have caused most people (billions) to stumble for thousands of years are things such as false religious doctrines and practices that dishonor and misrepresent God (hellfire,Trinity, immortal soul, Halloween, Christmas, justifiable warfare, nationalism...) Even if one were to suggest that the referencing of "people who practice lawlessness" is not the the apostate "man of lawlessness," it would still have to be taken within the context of 1Tim. 5;24,25 where some things are brought our sooner and others later. The Bible has many examples to support that and I appreciate your inclusion of that important scripture that helps explain why badness can go on for years, decades or some don't experience justice in their lifetime. I also found 1 Cor. 11:17-19 informative (not the new Bible but the more literal Kingdom Interlinear - in fact pretty well all other translations) in it's use of "must" (dei) (it is binding; it is necessary; there have to be; ..."there "must" be also be sects among you, that the persons approved may also become manifest among you." In stating there "must" be sects/factions, God's Word isn't suggesting that Jehovah wants badness to happen or that it is part of his purpose. But rather that he allows these things to play out for the same reason he has allowed badness to exist even on a universal scale for a time: to manifest who is who. These types of situations are a revealer of hearts, motives, faith, attitudes...even of men in authority who are also accountable. And as Paul stated regarding himself and others: "...we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men." That's what faithless men miss. They think that as long as they can fool men or control matters, they can get away with it. But faithful men recognize as true what you had quoted above in 1 Cor. 4:5 that secret things will be revealed. While some may characterize these interchanges as negative talk, the fact is that pretending everything is rosy and nothing bad can ever happen (an exaggeration I know) and that everything men in authority do is by Jesus' direction is simply absurd in the face of plain facts. It is not "encouraging" at all. It's like telling someone in great pain with cancer how great everything is going for you and they must be imagining their situation or lying = not helpful. "Rejoice with people who rejoice; weep with people who weep." Romans 12:15. It is comforting I'm sure to any who have had to face a reality most others have not to have people care enough to offer wisdom, empathy, counsel and understanding in such a way as to help them maintain their faith despite extreme circumstances. I also appreciated the application you (JWI) made regarding 1 Cor. 4:5, that is an interesting perspective I had not actually considered. I totally agree with that. I've clearly seen that myself and so have many others (although few would want to say it out loud and at times there would be serious repercussions.) It seems to me that that later we get into the time of the end, the more people reveal who they are within the scope of time, pressure and opportunity. Of course, once again, these traits, although visible at times in the form of imperfection or even wickedness at times, don't characterize the majority of our brothers and sisters who are struggling to swim upstream in Satan's system, cope with their own imperfections, temptations and face the badness of others within. Still, it is there and it's only honest to acknowledge that it exists. After all, how can you protect yourself against something you believe doesn't exist or can never happen? It is good that Jehovah's Word gives us the warnings we need both in examples and in word for our protection. Romans 15:4: "For all the things that were written aforetime were written for out instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the scriptures we might have hope."

I am a faithful believer and have "privileges" in the organization. I am also aware of things that most people are not aware of and wouldn't believe even if I told them. (And no, I don't come by this by way of apostate websites and such. I am there at ground zero with eyes on the ground, in first person testimony). These are the types of things that you will never read about in our publications - and for good reason. People would be stumbled - some things are just too outside their field of experience to rationalize within the context of their faith and they wouldn't thank you for knowing about it anyway because they don't want to know. (It would be like asking: "Can you tell me something that's going to kill me?") And yet, none of these things should come as a surprise. The Bible clearly warns us of "wicked men and imposters," men who would advance from bad to worse. Sometimes the things that happen are so "out there" that the only ones you would be able to identify with are faithful men described in God's Word who have experienced similar things that some of us experience in a spiritual sense today. Yes, some men in authority - "stars in Jesus' right hand" are not what they appear to be even though they may appear righteous to men and have a badge of authority. Of course, most people expect imperfection, but there are times when you have to call it what it is: wickedness. (I can't say whether that applies in the case referred to above here since I don't know all the facts and wasn't personally there - even though it looks bad). No, but as referenced above, we "shouldn't be too surprised considering the other kinds of hidden crimes that we already know about." I get elders asking me from all over the place about these things and I respond the best way I can, always honestly, but in a way that will help them maintain their faith in Jehovah and respect for his organization - with the proviso that sometimes that respect is for the authority men may have, but not for who they are. (i.e.. David's respect for Saul, even though Saul, using theocratic resources, was orchestrating a murderous campaign against a faithful servant of Jehovah that went on for years). The short answer is that, our relationship and dedication to Jehovah God should never be dictated by the decisions other humans make, regardless of what "position" they have, or how much we may fell hurt by them. Even when that "position" is viewed by many as being righteous. Power can have a corrupting influence and when men aren't held to account quickly, they can become hardened to do bad. Especially when they have the authority to control matters to hide and protect themselves. To be clear I'm an not pointing or accusing the Governing Body as such - (although there have been some disturbing issues in the past), but rather pointing out the fact that there is no level within the Organization where corruption has not existed at one time or another. (in what year was corruption no longer allowed? Not yet anyway...) It is also important not to paint with too wide a brush as if the whole organization was bad - based on the choices of a "relatively" few bad apples. When you think about the people you associate with at meetings, the ministry and at conventions, you see that most JW's are good at heart, happy, kind people who want to do what is right and please Jehovah despite their imperfections - just like we are.

Apparently that is more in line with the redress scheme the government is now suggesting with the ongoing investigations. Let's see, $150 thousand times 1,000 child molestation cases attributed to our organization in Australia alone, would be what, $150 million? Still, $150 thousand per is still better than us having to pay millions per as in some cases elsewhere. I am interested to see how forthcoming with the truth and redress we will be in comparison with the Catholic Church. I appreciate the direction we are taking as an organization in other areas such as our unity, the preaching work, our spiritual instruction...But I feel that both transparency and honesty to the faithful has been lacking as to child molestation cases. Are the ones making these claims really all just "apostates and liars?" Naturally, we shouldn't give any attention to apostates and liars. Problem is they are not all just apostates and liars after all. It concerns me now when I see how our own confidential records are being used as evidence against us and costing us millions of dollars of funds donated for the preaching work. Still, it would not be fair to judge the whole organization based on this sordid stuff. ( I don't even judge the Catholic Church based on their problem with it either - I have enough other reasons for my disagreement

I was was recently reading a book (fiction) wherein the the victim was a key player in bringing "a whole conspiracy to light. Even now now the whole truth isn't known." In response, the villain replies: "Buried. Because the truth would embarrass important people. It's always been that way." I retained that quote as salient because of what I had seen and experienced within the organization. An expression in my country is: "Don't expect justice from Bethel." The reason behind that expression isn't that justice is never served, but rather it appears at times to be a matter of who you are or are connected to - who you friends are, what position you have. I would like to emphasize - as always - that not everyone is like that and it would be unfair to present it that way. But there does (at times) seem to be a different standard for those in authority compared to to rest. Those who use their authority to insulate themselves from scriptural accountability are manifesting a lack of faith in their accountability to God. ("Jehovah is not seeing...") It is a manifestly political view of matters that should be viewed from a spiritual, faith-based point of view. So the idea that people should keep quiet to "protect Jehovah's reputation and his organization" is well, (fill in the blank). The Bible shows that when needed discipline was required for his people, Jehovah didn't hold back because he was afraid of what the neighbors think. That surrounding nations would conclude that their gods were greater after taking his people into captivity, didn't stop Jehovah from being true to himself and his standards. In my experience, keeping quiet (even under threat) only enables and emboldens those who have the most to hide. I've seen whole vicious, lying campaigns launched to discredit individuals who have exposed wrongdoing of the privileged. Still on the other hand, it's important to respect authority - especially within the organization, but not to the point of blind, worshipful obedience. The principle of "relative subjection" applies within the organization as well. Not everyone who has authority are what they may appear to be and even apostates have been able to get away with being such for years. (Should anyone become one simply because someone in authority leads them in that direction? Is that what "obedience" is?) I was aware of your other references, and there is more than innuendo regarding Greenlees. I thought the sauna/pool incidents you mentioned you had previously attibuted to someone else you had described as "the oracle." Percy Chapman perhaps? Maybe I remember your previous post from last year incorrectly.

Yes I did mean to say Jonah, but didn't know how to change it afterwards. Not sure if it was the auto-correct that usually messes things up for me or absent-mindedness. Thanks for the clarification.

It would be true to say that there are wicked men in any religious organization (including ours at times). It's also true to say that we used to be very graphic, specific and expressive in our description of other religions. In today's climate however, tact becomes important and we often need to choose our words carefully so as to maintain Jehovah's standards, and yet not alienate people who could potentially become our brothers and sisters, or unnecessarily bring governmental/legal restrictions that would curtail our preaching work. We don't want to sound like "haters," while trying to reach those very same individuals (whether regarding religion or lifestyle). That's not to say we approve of or tolerate wickedness, but we need to also guard against "painting with a wide brush" millions of people of whatever persuasion who like the Ninevites Noah was sent to - "did not know their left hand from their right hand." My next door neighbour happens to be Muslim as was one of my previous employers. They were very nice to me. I can't imagine how they would feel if I started referring to them all as wicked Muslims or how receptive they would be to our message with that description. I'm sure the poster wasn't intending to make broad sweeping generalizations (even though we know Jehovah will destroy Babylon the Great), but my point is we need to be tactful in the way we relate to others who we may want to reach.

I use a similar line of reasoning. Since Satan was in heaven and speaking directly with God (eg. re: Job) it's a given from first person experience, that he would know the nature of God and Jesus. Therefore would it make any sense for Satan to try to tempt Jesus to be disloyal to God if he thought Jesus was God himself? It would lead to the absurd conclusion that he was trying to get God should be disloyal to himself. What would the sovereign and creator of the universe have to gain by now being subservient to Satan? Not to mention the pain and suffering he would knowingly be inflicting on all his creation. The temptation scenario only makes sense if Satan (correctly) understood that Jesus was lower than Almighty God and was attempting to challenge Jehovahs right to rule by having Jesus perform an act of obedience to Satan.