b4ucuhear

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About b4ucuhear

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  1. Legal Protection Offered by JW.org

    Nice catch JWI, I didn't see that. "Sign that boy up." IRONY: the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of it's literal (intended) meaning; a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory impulses; an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been expected. INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY: characterized by a biased, dishonest attitude ie. relevant facts and information are purposely omitted when such things may contradict one's hypothesis; facts are presented in a biased manner and twisted to give misleading impressions to to support one view over another. The "irony" here is that intellectual dishonesty was used to support the contention that the original quote was intellectually dishonest. It is noteworthy and fair to note that Srecko did acknowledge his error. Not so great was still trying to spin it into a negative right after... That is a point well worth considering, especially when the GB start making predictions of things that haven't happened yet. It's fair enough when they admit that "this is our understanding at this time, but that could change." It's another thing entirely when they present uninspired predictions as fact and become dogmatic about it. That plays right into the hands of those who quote Deuteronomy to make the "false prophet" accusation. With what seems to be an almost 100% failure rate, I would say: "it's time to lose the crystal ball guys." True we have said in the past that "prophecy is best understood after it has happened," but really, we don't even get that right, making changes to our understanding even a century later. If it was Jehovah's will that we go "beyond the things written" and start predicting details of how things will work out, he would have given us a miraculous ability to see the future as he had with his prophets in the past. Our mandate is to preach the good news of the kingdom, teach and make disciples. We can commend our brothers on the GB for overseeing and accomplishing this great task. But please, enough already with the predictions. It makes it hard to defend our position as doing a prophetic work with a straight face - especially with the dismal track record we have established and the selective definition of a prophet opposers would like to impose on us.
  2. Legal Protection Offered by JW.org

    An interesting observation I had to wrestle with before leaving, experiencing the world and then coming back again. So ineffect, I had to learn the "hard way" that Satans system and allurements were not what they appeared to be. That is not to say all is well within either. (I have seen the bad things that can happen and at times it's far more than just "imperfections" that seem to be our go-to response to these matters - but that's another story). In leaving the truth (for over 10 years) to try to see things more objectively - to see things without a JW lens, asking questions (and actually living a VERY worldly lifestyle) I came to a realization at one point that there was no real future in this system. It was a garbage can painted to look like gold. So I did a more earnest study of different religions, but I always had to come back to one fundamental question that could have saved me a lot of time. What did Jesus say would identify his true followers? Did the answer really require the lengths I was going to, to sift through all that garbage? John 13:34, 35 was what did it for me. How can you be fulfilling this requirement and killing your same brothers in war? How can you love even your enemies by killing them and their children in war? That really narrowed things down for me. Still, I wondered how would someone/me narrow it down further? Be exposed to different questions I may not have thought of asking? Or points of view that were foreign to me that I may have neglected to consider? Or even contrary to what I believed? How could the "scientific method" of thesis, antithesis and synthesis be practically applied? How could I be exposed to all this important information? The answer was simple and obvious: be active in the ministry. That is an acid test. People will express their views to you, uncoloured by a JW lens - directly from their perspective and it is up to you then to weigh the evidence in your reply. If your reply carries scriptural weight it will reinforce your beliefs. If not it will weaken them or require further research. So someone raised in the truth doesn't really need to waste years of searching. They just need to get down to doing what every Christian should be doing anyways. Preaching to others.
  3. Without knowing more details, it's hard to know how to respond without hopscotching over many possibilities. I'm sorry to hear you feel that way and I would caution against any knee jerk reactions based on emotion. (Not saying that's actually the case here since info is sparse). Questions you might ask: Where else would I go? Am I prepared to do the things the other religions do? (Go to war? Believe in hell? Celebrate pagan holidays? Support political systems under Satans control? Be part of an organization that is divided politically, racially, ethnically? Would I deliberately hide Gods name in a Bible? Would I believe Jesus and Jehovah are co-equal as part of a Trinity? Would I keep what I believe to be life-saving truths to myself instead of sharing it with others? Would I be comfortable supporting a paid clergy to receive what Jesus gave for free? Would I be as spiritually educated elsewhere? ...) would I be willing to wait patiently until a clarification/adjustment is made either in my understanding or from the society? - it may take years. If I didn't agree with everything other religions taught either, would I feel comfortable/qualified becoming my own religion - a religion of one? The idea/reality of being treated as a criminal by the brothers may be an exaggeration or it may be true. Often it depends on how you present your views. You can be perceived either as a person who simply has unanswered questions or as an apostate who may want to draw disciples after yourself, or something in between.
  4. We sometimes make broad application of selected verses in God's Word as if there were no exceptions or as if they are true in every case. A legitimate example of this might be Heb. 6:18 "...it is impossible for God to lie." An example of another verse where we might not assume to make a broad application of is Proverbs. 16:7: "When Jehovah is pleased with a man's ways, he causes even his enemies to be at peace with him." Is that always the case? We might say it was true during Solomon's reign, but what about other faithful servants of Jehovah who obviously had enemies that were not at peace with them? (David, Jeremiah, Jesus, JW's today...) Could we reason conversely that if they/we had enemies, Jehovah is not pleased with them/us? Hardly. It's just that making a broad application to some passages raises obvious questions. Another scripture to consider is that found at Psalm 119:165: "Abundant peace belongs to those who love your law; Nothing can make them stumble ("for them there is no stumbling block")." The conclusion often drawn from that is that "true" worshippers can't be stumbled. But the reality is that quite often true worshippers are stumbled. If fact, that is not only a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, but in line with the warning Jesus gives at Matthew 18:6: "But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea." So clearly both Jesus and Paul (Romans 14:21) indicate that our "brothers" could be stumbled by the choices we make (even if those choices may be "lawful" according to our conscience.) Is there a contradiction here? It might seem that way and has in fact to some (this isn't the first time this issue has been raised.) If you you look in the CD WT library at all the references (it will take a lot of time) you will see that generally these articles focus on one OR the other without considering how one relates or contributes to our understanding of the other - but not all. Either "nothing can make true worshippers stumble," OR "be very careful about stumbling or fellow worshippers by the way we act on our conscience." Is it fair to assume that those who stumble are not "true worshippers" or "not of our sort" going out from us? Hardly, because Jesus clearly identified such as "little ones who have faith" - and yet could be stumbled. However, as mentioned earlier, not all articles present these verses as an "either - or" situation. Here are some comments from the WT that explain this seeming contradiction: "True, were all Christians fully mature, there would be no danger of stumbling another: (Ps. 119:165). but since not all Christians are strong in faith and mature, we must exercise care." "The person being stumbled to a fall might be a 'little one,' but that would not minimize the seriousness for the one causing the stumbling in this case. Why not? Because it involved "one of these little ons that believe." This would designate a believer in Jesus as the messianic Son of God. The belief of such "little ones" puts them on the way to everlasting life. So, if anyone willfully, purposely, inconsiderately caused such a 'little one' on the way to eternal life to take due offence and stumble out of the the living way into destruction, it would be tantamount to committing murder. It would show a lack of love for the one stumbled." So we can surmise that Psalm 119:165 basically refers to those who have a level of spiritual maturity, because they "love God's law" and "rove about in it," - (but that might not be true of all true worshippers). Likely these mature ones would have experience in applying God's law - and eating "solid food" (as mature ones would do) and so not be stumbled by what might stumble newer ones. But those newer ones acquainted only with "milk" and with weak consciences, could in fact be stumbled and we have to be careful about that. Finally, depending of the severity of the circumstance, even mature ones have stumbled by what they may have seen/heard/experienced. Therefore, the admonition at 1 Corinthians 10:12 is important: "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall."
  5. Not bad. Thanks for caring enough about your brothers and sisters to share what has helped you. I might add something re: Psalm 119:165 later. I'm sure those who need it most will find this especially helpful.
  6. Got it. Sorry. Was typing while you were posting it. Thanks and sorry again.
  7. While I quoted just the beginning of your post there, I do mean the whole thing. I don't know why you would think I would disagree with anything there. I don't. (SURPRISE!) EXCEPT for your snarky comment about "Anna believing the Governing Body was comprised to hold everyone's hand." Not fair and not true.
  8. Not sure that not being dogmatic about 1914 qualifies as a "flip flop." (In fact I am sure it doesn't - despite how you try to spin it.) Note truthfully that I am not against that date either - as you dishonestly try to make it appear. Here is my take on it and why I have very little interests in dates anyway - any of them. I didn't dedicate my life to a date. Not 1975; not 1922 or several others that haven't panned out; not even 1914. If some tie their faith to that it's up to them. But if Armageddon doesn't come when I expect it; or I don't live to see the fulfillment of earthly promises...that's fine. I'm in good company with many other faithful men who loved and worshipped Jehovah even though they didn't get to see the fulfillment of the reward. I know Jehovah's promises are sure to be fulfilled, and while I believe that time is soon, if it should delay, I'll just patiently wait. That's all. It's not about my salvation anyway. It's about living a life that honours Jehovah and proves Satan a liar - that when things get tough and I experience Job-like tests of faith I'll face those tests with dignity faith and integrity (although some stuff was VERY difficult, so I don't want to sound like more than I am). Job was a better man then me. So was David, Jeremiah, Joseph, Jesus, Isaiah and others whose examples were models for me to follow in dark times.
  9. I respect you for that. Knowing bad things can happen yet having the strength of faith and character to stay - as you seem - spiritually strong in the truth. Might I ask you to share with us what enables you to maintain your faith and dedication despite faith testing situations (whether you were personally in that congregation or not?) That's a kind suggestion I hadn't thought of and worth noting. I've been to Africa (much of the world actually), and while I haven't personally witnessed such atrocities, I know they exist there in certain places. You could be right. Maybe that's what's affected him.
  10. Is that what I should have told my sister? My younger sister was sexually molested by an elder. She stayed despite that without making waves, until she started to see other things she found deeply disturbing and then she did "move on" as you say. Actually, she shouldn't have "moved on" because later on, most of the elders (the bad ones) were either removed or disfellowshipped - half of them were apostate (but that's not all they were up to). Of course nobody wanted to believe anything (even with concrete evidence) since they were regulars on the circuit assembly platform and on even on the district convention. It took about 10 years to sort itself out (should have been much quicker considering the evidence), but it did, (although it took other elders to step in and do what actually had to be done.) Still, 1 Timothy 5:24 will prove to be true if you wait, in one way or another.
  11. I won't say anything except that is exactly what would happen. This primarily is referring to anointed Christians who have "received the heavenly free gift and become partakers of holy spirit." However, by extension, we also apply it to the great crowd. It would be dangerous however to set ourselves up as being in the judgment seat of God and decide for ourselves that people whom we may disagree with (or are in fact wrong) can't make changes before they die or merit everlasting destruction. It would be pretty dangerous to throw that around lightly in this kind of venue. I don't think anybody is suggesting there won't continue to be congregations, even despite stuff that shouldn't happen. As far as "...experienced blemishes at least as bad as is claimed by some happens today...," I just read those two chapters over and I won't comment on that, just to say I think "blasphemy" would be worse for sure. I couldn't add any further without being too specific. Seriously? Ask a Catholic choir boy...or... You mean like quoting John 8:7, and from a different translation that you cherry picked to agree with you? The F&DS tell us that the 12 verses at John 7:53-8:11 are spurious and "...have been obviously added to the original text of John's gospel." But having the NWT, you already know that don't you? So to highlight your own agenda you quote a spurious passage from a translation that we don't even use/accept the passage of (except on the side). Another reason some feel that verse is spurious is that it in principle, contradicts God's word - especially when it comes to exposing wrongdoing from within the congregation. What religion did you say you were again? It doesn't read that way in our Bible. (And I won't bother to comment on your omission of verse 19 of 1 Corinthians 11 - as translated in the literal Kingdom Interlinear and pretty well every other Bible.)
  12. I had never heard of "Johnny the Bethelite," "Rick Fearon" nor any of the blogs/websites you linked to until I saw your post. That is because I don't go to those places except by accident. But apparently, in direct violation of the clear direction we get from the Faithful and Discreet Slave, you do. Your post is like telling someone: "Hey there is a roaring lion down the path in that cave that wants to kill you. Why don't you go and check it out? In fact, I'll help you along by greasing that slippery slope with a direct link to it." Whose side are you on anyway? It brings to mind a couple of expressions: "A danger to himself and others" and "with friends like that who needs enemies?" Are you kidding me? Someone disagrees with you and you come up with that nonsense? My intention has always been to help people stay active and in the truth, despite the things that have stumbled many. Things that they find hard to rationalize. Things that YOU can't even stand to hear, let alone experience in real life. The fact is, I would have found it very difficult myself had not others patiently and lovingly showed they understood what I was seeing/going through, having experienced it themselves and providing seasoned scriptural advice to make sense of this madness. No one else would have understood and I would have been on my own. I think such ones are a gift from Jehovah. And although some people live in "pretend world," or as most, simply never see this stuff, shouldn't basic common sense tell you that this stuff goes on? When someone is df'd let's say as an apostate/immoral/molester... How long do you think that has been going on for? Just that day? Doesn't reality tell you that at times these (prophesied about) wicked men and imposters were men that were "not whom they appeared to be" for years, decades even? So what (sometimes) happens to the ones who are exposed to such men? Nobody believes them (or wants to believe them) - that's what. Or they are viewed as negative trouble-makers by guys like you. Guys who set themselves up as "keepers of the faith" while ignoring/denying these spiritual "widows and orphans." These little sheep often leave the truth when they are treated like that.
  13. I'm hoping that the purpose of posting isn't just to expose organizational flaws - it isn't in my case anyway. It's not fair for members of a family just to air dirty laundry. It seems apparent that Jay Witness has a bad agenda and as one poster mentioned in effect, we shouldn't believe everything opposers say. It is more to get us thinking about our own attitudes toward wrongdoing we may face from within the organization. Some seem to have a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" as if considering anything "negative" from within is somehow being disloyal or disobedient. "Only draw attention to good things; ignore anything bad/negative so as not to be discouraging." Question: Is that the example Jehovah set for us? Do you get the impression from reading his Word that in his organization (both heavenly and earthly) nothing bad ever happened? What about Jesus? Did he pretend badness/flaws didn't exist both in Jehovah's organization at the time (the Jews) or even among his followers? Or what about later when the Christian congregation was established...? Or what about the information published by the F&DS today? (i.e. chapter 28 of the Proclaimers Book: Testing and Sifting from Within). Can this all be just "airing dirty laundry?" But yet, some feel if we consider these realities, it's somehow bad. To be clear: No one is suggesting a steady diet of negative experiences, so why consider them at all? To use your illustration: "...when you shine a bright light upon cockroaches...they don't stop being cockroaches...they just go somewhere else." When is that true? Whenever you look the other way and pretend they don't exist. Usually, when people go to the trouble of shining a light on something it is to do something about it. Otherwise, they just continue to exist - as you have correctly mentioned - and even proliferate. So, of course, we have a scriptural system in place whereby we don't just look the other way when we encounter wrongdoing. We report it and even when justice may take years, decades or even lifetimes, we leave matters in Jehovah's hands since we have fulfilled our personal obligation and not take matters into our own hands.I don't see anyone suggesting a mutiny for the organization to change here. Is that the end of the story though? What about in the meantime when we see people being stumbled or deeply troubled by something, THEN what is our obligation? Pretend it doesn't exist? Or apply God's counsel to us at 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4: "Praised by the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all out trials so that WE MAY BE ABLE TO COMFORT OTHERS IN ANY SORT OF TRIAL WITH THE COMFORT THAT WE RECEIVE FROM GOD." Some of us have seen and experienced things that would assuredly stumble others (I don't even tell elders or Circuit Overseers because the problem is not whether they would even believe me anyway ((they wouldn't)), but rather, what if they DID believe me? (I wouldn't go around blabbing about this stuff anyway). They would possibly be stumbled - even though they may THINK they have "seen everything." Some of these things are WAY outside the box. Things people wouldn't even think would exist or call to mind as a possibility. That is why those specifics are not being mentioned here. The fact is, none of these things as bad as they may be should stumble anyone - they haven't stumbled us and we have survived. But often what makes these things (although rare) survivable is the kindness, understanding, validation, acceptance and love of those who really have been there. Who can understand and help one make sense of things they thought could never happen because "angels would cull out whatever would stumble anyone." (they misunderstand the import of that verse in Matthew and so have unrealistic expectations of what should happen.) One of Jehovah's provisions to help us, is the support we get from our brotherhood. They can be a personal lifesaver and comfort that you wouldn't normally get from a magazine or public talk
  14. I was trying to say similar, but I think you have expressed it better. 2 Corinthians 1:4 applies here. But those who need comfort won't get it if everyone pretends it doesn't exist - and it really doesn't for most people. Who in the congregation would even believe you, or even want to? The answer is: nobody - unless they have seen and been through it themselves. Fortunately for me, I knew very strong and zealous brothers of many years who shared their experiences with me which was of great encouragement because as you correctly stated it provided "relief I wasn't going crazy." But they wouldn't go talking about these things just to anybody in the congregation. It's too outside the realm of experience for most. We are encouraged to overlook the "imperfections" of others, which is scripturally loving and appropriate. But what we are alluding to is much more than some garden variety imperfection. These are often disfellowshipping offences and other forms of badness. I wouldn't think everyone reading this would believe/agree with this thread. But for those of us who have had to come to terms with some pretty hairy stuff, your expressions above ring true - spot on in fact.
  15. It is one thing to speak frankly and honestly (rather than live in "pretend world") while also contributing to the spiritual welfare of our brothers and sisters. Some of our brothers and sisters in fact do experience some pretty bad stuff and they need validation and understanding. They won't be helped to cope by pretending it doesn't exist or a lack of transparency or even punishing them for exposing things that are clearly bad. On the other hand, it's another thing to have an agenda. An agenda to only tear down and direct people away from Jehovah's organization. That paints with too wide a brush and denies all the good that is done and can yet be done. One conspicuous omission I see from all these cowardly nay-sayers, sniping from behind the safety of a computer screen, is: What are you offering that is better? What religion are you in that is so much better? Let's examine your beliefs publicly and see if it stands the same level of scrutiny you hold us to. While we are obedient to Christ's command to preach the good news world wide, what are you offering? Let me guess: Bingo, bake sales and bazaars...?