Ann O'Maly

I guess this would come close:

And yet you haven't read the pamphlet. So you have no idea whether there is any truth or logic to what he argues or not. Iirc, Campbell was moved eventually to write his pamphlets (there's another one I know about) after an encounter with a regular pioneer who made him think about and research his own evangelical beliefs. And don't forget he wrote this booklet in 1990. Some of his criticisms may be outdated as the Org has changed its mind on several doctrines since then. You never know, there may be a teaching or two Campbell and JWs agree on now!

How many 'returns' do you think Jesus makes, according to Scripture?

As the Watchtower referenced above stated, "there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding." The first chronological application of the 70 weeks to Jesus was made in the 3rd century CE by Julius Africanus. There were other writings and chronological schemes apart from those in the book of Daniel that were fueling Jewish messianic expectations. E.g. see the following articles: http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_14.html#Two_messiahs http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_15.html Because ideas and interpretations varied so much, some Jews would have seen prophetic parallels with Jesus as a false messiah - especially when he made provocative statements that shook up the establishment. After all, Jesus wasn't the only 'messiah' knocking around at the time (cp. Acts 5:36, 37). It's a matter of historical record that anyone can check for himself - not opinion. In line with Holly's Scripture texts in the OP, which say Jesus' return cannot be calculated, the onus is on you as a JW defender to prove Christ did return and was enthroned in heaven in 1914. Go on. Give it your best shot.

Baloney. His and his successor's conclusions about the timing of Jesus' presence was retrospective. His ideas about 1914's future relevance in Bible prophecy were wrong. His 'Divine Plan' chronological scheme was all but abandoned after his death, with Rutherford eventually only retaining the date 1914, spiritualizing what were supposed to have been physical events (i.e. the Gentile governments being crushed to smithereens in Dan. 2:44 style), and making some new ill-fated predictions of his own.

*** w14 2/15 p. 27 Questions From Readers *** "Could the first-century Jews have calculated the time of the Messiah’s arrival on the basis of the prophecy of the 70 weeks recorded at Daniel 9:24-27? While that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed. The fact is that there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding." The application of the '70 weeks' prophecy to Jesus was a later Christian interpretation - not a Jewish one. The 1st century Christians believed Jesus was already ruling amidst his enemies in their day, from as soon as Jesus ascended to heaven and sat down at his Father's right hand. - Acts 2:34-37; Eph. 1:20, 21; Heb. 10:12, 13; Rev. 3:21. A person has to 'arrive' or 'come' first in order to be 'present' or 'alongside.' One cannot be present without having first arrived. Noah's contemporaries who were caught out by the Flood [literally] "did not know" when it would be, which is the whole point of Jesus likening those days to people not knowing the day and hour of Jesus' parousia.

It's funny. I don't remember any of these phenomena mentioned in the Olivet discourse. How do you know you will see it in your lifetime? The early Bible Students thought they would see it in their lifetimes as has each subsequent BS/JW generation after that. So how do you know that you and your generation will be the one? And doesn't it bother anyone that the 'Gentiles' are still having their 'times' over 100 years after the' Gentile times' supposedly ended? Really? Earthquakes, wars, pestilence, food shortages, persecution, evangelism and lawlessness have only occurred together in the 20th and 21st centuries? But http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/westtech/x14thc.htm. Define 'very short.' Here are some different perspectives: http://bigthink.com/the-evolution-of-enlightenment/the-world-is-getting-worse-and-other-lies http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/04/28/the-world-looks-like-its-getting-worse-heres-why-its-not/

Actually, this is more representative

I should think so! This ban was beyond ridiculous. And that Muslim lady on the beach deserves a public apology.

The trouble is, if we take the table of classical historians' figures from the WT article, we end up with those of Berossus (as reproduced in Josephus) and Ptolemy. It's simple math. Working backwards from Babylon's fall, which everyone agrees on ... 539 BCE + 17 (Nabonidus) + 4 (Labashi-Marduk and Neriglissar combined because Labashi-Marduk's accession year = Neriglissar's 4th year) + 2 (Amel-Marduk) + 25 (Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th year and reigned 43 years in total, so 43 -18 = 25) = ? BCE

Bzzzt, bzzzt, bzzzt. You are out of the game. Not only have you cheated (I had originally spelled it 'focussed') but both spellings are correct. I didn't bother to read any more in your post. I've spent way too much time on your drivel already.

It was prepared soon after those 2011 articles came out - pretty much c&p'ed from my files. Absolutely. This is important, and very often missed/ignored by those JWs who try to find similar '70 years' interpretations among Bible scholars and classical historians: 'Such-a-body from [distant] century also counted 70 years from 607 or 606 BCE just like us, so there is scholarly support for our position.' But actually, 'such-a-body' thought 607/606 BCE was the beginning of Neb's reign - not the year of Jerusalem's destruction, so 'such-a-body' doesn't support the JW position. If memory serves, only those who have been associated with the Watchtower Society in some way count the '70 years' from Neb's 18th year and Jerusalem's destruction Thanks for expanding on the copyist error problem too - very helpful. Kurt - the two links you provided ... well, certainly the first one (I'm less familiar with the second) ... contains much misinformation. If you or anyone wants to know why, please refer to this LINK.

Your math is off. The abuse of 'A' was about 25 years ago. Anyway the point remains about how to best safeguard children and address abuse allegations in the here-and-now. That is your personal opinion of my personal opinion, but it is not my personal opinion. The courts' and ARC's findings, based on the evidence presented by all parties (and not on my personal opinion, btw), is that the Org. has had a woefully inadequate set of child abuse policies and procedures which, in practical terms, has focussed on protecting the Org's image, on protecting the alleged abuser's 'right to confidentiality' at the expense of the victim's welfare, enabled abuse to continue, and victims who disclosed to be further traumatized. The Org. needed to improve its attitude and approach, which it has to a limited extent over the years, but it still fails in key areas. Is not the Organization spirit-directed? If the holy spirit directs, does it direct imperfectly? I.e. is it the holy spirit's (God's) fault when the spirit-directed Org. gets things wrong? If it isn't the holy spirit's fault that the Org. has made mistakes, and if the holy spirit directs perfectly, has the Org. been ignoring the spirit's direction? If the Org. has been ignoring spirit-direction, it wasn't being directed by holy spirit. Sure, the Org. is made up of imperfect people, but those imperfect people make grand claims about how wonderful they are and how they are the only ones being directed by God's holy spirit to act and teach a certain way. I think you are confusing the Commission with civil court. (Give me strength. Talk about delusional.) So you do believe Watchtower inflated its own figures and included other sexual 'sins' in its list of child sexual abuse cases? Lolol. Smh. Isn't this what you originally claimed in the second post of this thread? "No different than any other religion that is dealing with a worldwide problem." - AllenSmith, 8/12/16 So which argument are you going with? Do you think the Org. is better than other religions at safeguarding children, or 'no different from any other religion'? I'm glad to see you've finally dropped the 'JWT is my brother' charade. This is why you should follow your own counsel about not searching through legal websites for a quick response to win an argument. You have completely misunderstood its content. (6) A person ceases to be a registrable offender if— ... (c) he or she is a registrable offender only because he or she is subject to a sex offender registration order and that order is quashed on appeal. In other words, if a person who, due to having been convicted and sentenced for a registrable offense was court ordered to be on the register, later has that court order overturned on appeal, s/he ceases to be a registrable offender. *Sigh*

The OP has changed since the last time I checked in here. The somewhat misleading table from the Watchtower article makes it look as if the classical historians sourced the kings' regnal years independently from each other and that's why there are different figures. Yet most readers will be unaware that Berossus is the ultimate source for all of them. Polyhistor got his data from Berossus. Polyhistor's works are lost. To get Polyhistor's figures, you have to consult Eusebius. Eusebius in Chronicon, bk. 1.9 cites Polyhistor, whose source was Berossus, who gives 20 years for Nabopolassar and 12 years for Evil-Merodach. Eusebius in Praeparatio Evangelica, bk. 9, ch. XL (and in Chronicon) cites Josephus, whose source was Berossus, who gives 21 years for Nabopolassar and 2 years for Evil-Merodach. Interestingly, Insight Vol. I, p. 453 provides a possible ... um ... insight into why some of Polyhistor's figures (as given by Eusebius) are different: "Of his [Berossus'] writings Professor Olmstead remarks: ' . . . only the merest fragments, abstracts or traces have come down to us. And the most important of these fragments have come down through a tradition almost without parallel. Today we must consult a modern Latin translation of an Armenian translation of the lost Greek original of the Chronicle of Eusebius, who borrowed in part from Alexander Polyhistor who borrowed from Berossus direct, and in part from Abydenus who apparently borrowed from Juba who borrowed from Alexander Polyhistor and so from Berossus. To make a worse confusion, Eusebius has in some cases not recognized the fact that Abydenus is only a feeble echo of Polyhistor, and has quoted the accounts of each side by side!' He continues: 'And this is not the worst. Although his Polyhistor account is in general to be preferred, Eusebius seems to have used a poor manuscript of that author.' (Assyrian Historiography, pages 62, 63)" [emphasis added] Could the different figures attributed to Polyhistor be corruptions in the text? It would seem so. The full quote by Olmstead is available at http://www.aina.org/books/ah.pdf. To punch home the point about all roads leading back to Berossus, Olmstead adds in his following paragraph, "Summing up, practically all the authentic knowledge that the classical world has of the Assyrians and Babylonians came from Berossus." As regards the Josephus column in the Watchtower article's table, it's telling that only the figures from Antiquities, X.11 are given, as if these are solely the ones Josephus uses. Nabopolassar's regnal years are omitted in the table presumably because in the midst of that section, Josephus quotes Berossus who assigns 21 years to him. Naturally, Josephus' later book, Against Apion, has regnal years identical to the first Berossus column in the table - indeed, to get these Berossus figures in the table, one has to consult Josephus! The Ptolemy column matches the Berossus column anyway - with the exception of Labashi-Marduk who reigned less than a year and didn't need counting. Here is a table that doesn't compare Berossus with a row of historians whose source was ultimately Berossus (other than, perhaps, Ptolemy): Source: Berossos and Manetho, Introduced and Translated: Native Traditions in Ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt - Gerald Verbrugghe, John Wickersham, John Moore Wickersham (University of Michigan Press, 2001).

 That depends on whether the Dan. 4's '7 times' calculation = (360 days x 7 =) 2,520 days = ('day for a year') 2,520 years is sound hermeneutic, and also depends on whether Luke 21:24 has anything to do with Dan. 4. If not, then 'no.'

It's nothing like what you said. Bzzzt. Aww and you'd done so well catching one in the other post. Never mind. Thanks for playing. I suppose you think a display of ineptitude is virtuous. I see that you, as 'Allen' have nothing more to further the discussion. It looks like your alter ego has submitted something worth addressing, however. ... For heaven's sake, whatever 'God's government' is supposed to do in the future, we are talking about children's welfare in the here-and-now. Finding ways to better protect them or to better deal with allegations of abuse is not 'mindless.' James 4:17 . . .if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him. Besides, 'God's earthly organization' is representative of or an extension of 'God's heavenly government,' is it not? The spirit-directed Org. should be a trailblazer in children's safeguarding and its responses to abuse allegations, providing a shining example to 'worldly' institutions, right? Instead, it has been embarrassingly far below the higher 'worldly' standards. I've asked (Allen) several times for suggestions on how the Org., and institutions in general, can improve their policies and procedures; or how to protect children in the congregation if the abuser doesn't get disfellowshipped and remains a member. No sensible answer is forthcoming from either of your identities so far. Responses such as 'God will sort it out' and 'Stop picking on us - we're not the only ones with a problem' aren't good enough. Allegations of child abuse are not 'frivolous,' and if Watchtower or its' agents reported a suspected incident of abuse to the appropriate secular authorities in good faith, there would be no legal cause for the accused to sue them for breach of confidentiality. Your quotation, purportedly from a Watchtower letter about a query over confidentiality, was in regard to a JW insurance salesman revealing the urine test result of a fellow JW and prospective client which indicated he was a smoker. Nothing to do with the issue of reporting a crime to the police. The court case you cite was to do with a lawsuit over being shunned - likewise irrelevant to the question about what should and shouldn't be divulged and to whom when suspected child abuse comes to light. SEX OFFENDERS REGISTRATION ACT 2004 - SECT 6 Who is a registrable offender? (1) Subject to subsections (3) to (6), a registrable offender is a person whom a court has at any time (whether before, on or after 1 October 2004) sentenced for a registrable offence. - http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/sora2004292/s6.html (Bold emphasis mine.) To be 'sentenced,' a person has to go through the judicial process and found (or pleaded) guilty, i.e. the authorities have taken action. Your (Allen's) statement remains erroneous. ... like you have, for example.

My my, Allen. I'm going to need a license to fish out all the red herrings swimming in your post. Only in your imagination. Yes. Conti, Campos, Karen Morgan, 'A' (the one referred to in the OP), several more. Which cases have you followed? Seeing as I have asked you this a number of times now, I can only conclude that you haven't really followed any. Was this a JW case? If so, who was it and where? I'd like to check it out. Do you think the cases I just mentioned above were ambulance-chasing, bogus ones? Or were they 'legitimate'? So you didn't read them ... otherwise you wouldn't have written such twaddle. But for the sake of argument, what protocols in your opinion does the government need to recommend to improve institutions' responses to child abuse allegations? Do you have any concrete ideas? Or are you going to continue to blow smoke? Was this a JW case? If so, who was it? I'd like to check it out. You asserted that the WTS was sued for breach of confidentiality when elders reported crimes to the authorities. You haven't backed up your assertion, and the evidence from Watchtower's own documentation and elders' own testimonies in court reveal that elders did not routinely notify the authorities about child abuse during the '80s and '90s. We've been over this, doofus. You are wrong. I have shown you why you are wrong. All 1006 cases were classified as Child Sexual Abuse. The commission is only interested in child sexual abuse incidents hence it being called (see if you can spot the clue in the title) 'The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.' Do you really think Watchtower Australia inflated its own figures by including adultery, fornication, masturbation and 'improper contact' in its child sexual abuse stats? Lolol. Um, no. That's not how it happened. Watchtower didn't want to produce the necessary documents on some pretext that it wasn't practical because it would take a crazy amount of time (somewhere in the order of 20 years) to give the court what it wants. A computer expert testified that the needed info could be extracted in a couple of months so it became evident that Watchtower was talking BS. Although the default judgment (i.e. the terminating sanctions because Watchtower had violated the court's discovery order) was overturned on appeal, Watchtower is still ordered to produce the needed documents and will have monetary sanctions imposed for each day it doesn't. http://dumaslawgroup.com/2016/06/28/jehovahs-witnesses-face-sanctions-withholding-documents-sex-abuse-case/ I should hope they are. That's JW publishers' dedicated funds they're wasting! Because it's not there in the ARC evidence. Horse-hooey. Hahaha! Saying there were 2 testifying victims 'is a far cry' from my contention that there were 2 testifying victims? Brilliant. At least you've conceded on this point. You have forgotten your own train of thought. The point I was responding to was your suggestion that Mr. Stewart was ignorant of the difference between 'criminality and civil culpability.' I asked whether you really believed that. You then answered with something completely irrelevant about 'spiritual cleanliness' so I cut it from my post. Ah, now you are trying to proof-read. (Psst, you bolded and italicized the wrong part.) Why did you quote UK law, then? Not if the authorities have taken no action - which is contrary to what you stated. Clap ... clap ... clap. You caught one. I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of highlighting every punctuation and spelling mistake of yours that I've copied and pasted in this post. I may not have caught them all (there were so many) but I've found there is always room for improving our written presentations, don't you agree? I'll give you a hint. If you look through my previous post, you might just see it among the 2 transcript extracts I quoted. Now, don't pester me for more clues. I don't want to spoil all the fun for you. Good luck! As I said, both victims had already disclosed to the elders seeking help, so yes, they were willing to participate in exposing the wrongdoing. The 'flip-flop' confusion is because your brain is jumping around like a frog in a box. The UK has no statute of limitations for sexual crimes. The U.S. does. The main point is to do with the person (allegedly) responsible for sexually assaulting these women and calling him to account before a court of law. If there were others involved who had knowledge of and/or knowingly enabled the crimes to take place, hopefully they will be called to account too. But the only reason I mentioned Cosby was to make a connection in your head about the statute of limitations barring victims from initiating lawsuits after a set period of time since the crime, thereby countering your point about victims suing 40, 50 years later.

Did you mean 'cue' word? Anyway, despite your latest round of diatribes, the moderator's axe hasn't fallen on you yet. Much of your post is off-the-point invective (as usual) so I'll only home in on what is pertinent to the topic. Which claims do you think are the ambulance-chasing, bogus ones? Which cases do you think are 'legitimate'? Have you followed any of them? Governments have done so already. Did you see the .gov websites I linked to in my previous posts and read the recommendations? Oh you didn't specify that they were wrongfully accused. If there was an allegation of abuse, it was proper to call the authorities, and Watchtower would not be liable for breach of confidentiality for reporting a crime. However, elders routinely did not call the authorities in the '80s and '90s, as has been evidenced in the ARC and numerous court cases - the woman 'A's' abuse mentioned in the OP article occurred in the late '80s/ early '90s ("The police were not told ... "). Watchtower is resisting allowing the U.S. courts access to their files on child abuse allegations (and it's costing Watchtower $thousands p/d in fines for every day it doesn't produce) so you do not know the stats on how many, if any, abuse allegations were reported to the police by the elders. It is a matter of public record how many of the 1000+ allegations were reported by the elders in Australia, so you can DISAGREE all you want but these are the objective facts. But they weren't - not by the Org, anyway. Last I heard, adultery, fornication, masturbation and 'improper touching' (whatever that is) weren't felonies legislated against by the government. Child sexual abuse is. On what? Actually, Mr. Stewart wiped the floor with him. You refer to (not 'my evidence' but) Watchtower Australia's list of 1006 Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) incidences that was submitted as evidence to the ARC. The title of the tabulated document is, "Jehovah's Witnesses - Incidence of CSA in Australia" so yes, they were all child sexual abuse cases. You mention there are some convictions listed, but do you see the last column on the right of the table titled "Reported to authorities by JW"? Scroll down that column. Do you see any 'yes' entries there? As I say, you can DISAGREE all you want but these are the objective facts. There you go again. 'We.' Are you using the 'royal we,' perhaps? By reading the BOE child abuse letters (including this month's which made some improvements but still nowhere near what's needed), the elders manual, and the UK's WTBTSB Child Safeguarding Policy. The point is always safeguarding children and young people by having a robust and up-to-date set of policies and procedures that meet current best practice in line with the recommendations of the government and other advisory bodies with expertise in this area. The Org's approach remains inadequate. It has to be dragged by external pressures into making any changes. After the Conti case in 2012, when a stark light shone on the Org's shameful failures in dealing with a known abuser in their midst, Watchtower issued new directives to the BOE. Recent high profile UK cases drawing the attention of the Charity Commission as well as the ARC hearing and findings, where the Org's handling of abuse was dissected and laid out on public view, have likewise prompted Watchtower's revision of its directives that were circulated earlier this month. Therefore, the Org is exhibiting a reactive mindset rather than a proactive one - which is indicative of an institution that won't acknowledge how far it needs to change. 2 victims testified for the ARC inquiry. There's that 'we' again. Relay this message to the other voices in your head: 'Ann has never testified in court about Watchtower abuse issues; she has never claimed to have done so; quit making stuff up.' You gave an example of a 'repentant' abuser who wasn't disfellowshipped and remained a member of the congregation? Did you also detail how the congregation's children were protected at the time? I must have missed that. Can you repost your example? Good. We agree with each other here. Are you one of the insane, then? For you are 'listening' to me and engaging with me. It looks like I was right about your mental state after all. How is your quoted extract relevant to my question? Is that a 'no'? I refer you back to previous answers. I stand corrected on the terminology. The crux of the matter is this: You stated, "Now, if the authorities are alerted, and no action is taken by the authorities, the accused name is placed on a mandatory sex offenders list" You are wrong. A 'caution' in UK law (which is to what your quote refers) is the consequence of authorities taking action against a criminal act (was your hypothetical 15yo boy deemed to have committed a sexual assault on the hypothetical 14 yo girl or was it a misunderstanding?), and during police interview, the 15yo would have to make "a clear and reliable admission of guilt" to a crime. The purpose of a 'caution' is "to resolve cases where full prosecution is not seen as the most appropriate solution." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_caution If no action is taken by the authorities, the accused's name would NOT be placed on a mandatory sex offenders list! If the WTS has been compliant, why have 'Caesar's laws' shown it to be otherwise? Who should establish the validitiy of an accusation? Professionally-trained police bodies or untrained, volunteer elders? Wrong again. Both victims testified. Do you not tire of looking like an idiot? Transcript Day 1: MR STEWART: Your Honour, the first witness will be the first survivor witness, [BCB]. Her name and address are known to the Royal Commission, and she is accompanied by her husband for support. THE CHAIR: [BCB], it will be necessary for you to be sworn. Will you take an oath on the Bible or an affirmation? [BCB]: An oath on the Bible <[BCB], sworn: [11.30am] Transcript Day 2: MR STEWART: The next witness, your Honour, will be [BCG]. THE CHAIR: [BCG], it's necessary for you to be sworn. Will you take an oath on the Bible or an affirmation? [BCG]: Affirmation. <[BCG], sworn: [12.14pm] Which victim? 'AB' or 'BG'? *snort* Both victims had already disclosed to the elders seeking help. Had the authorities been called from the get-go, they would have had the needed support, and the perps would have been stopped in their tracks earlier. Your statement: not even wrong. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong The statute of limitations also applies to civil prosecution - whether honest or not. You are citing a UN resolution about conflict-related rape and applying it to Cosby's alleged crimes? Smh. Well, Cosby is the one accused of sexual assault. That'll be why the 20+ women would like to sue him. But they can't ... because the statute of limitations has run out.

Yep. Got him pegged.

Poor little thing

What has that to with the price of beans? Again, instead of having a rational discussion about how the Org. has historically dealt with and presently deals with child abuse allegations, you resort to ad hominem and deflection. I think our conversation must soon come to an end if you continue to be incapable of rational discussion. My questions resulted from your own words where you said the WTS and other institutions are getting hammered and negative publicity, not because of their failings but, because of "ambulance chasing lawyers." Do you think the dozens upon dozens of lawsuits in recent times are down to "ambulance chasing lawyers" and are not 'legitimate' cases? Which 'legitimate' cases have you followed? What are you babbling on about? Which disgruntled witnesses? The abusers? When did the WTS or congregation elders notify the authorities about allegations of child abuse in the '80s and '90s? In Australia, according to the evidence brought out at the Royal Commission, the elders did not notify the police about the crime once in all 1000+ cases in the past 50 years. Who's 'we'? Your duplicate accounts don't count. I asked you a question. Do you know the difference between a statement and a question? You stated that the WTS will make changes through the Branches to comply with new government legislation. This prompted my question to you about whether you believe governments have to legislate to make 'God's organization' do the right and moral thing? So what do you think? Do governments have to legislate so that 'God's organization' is made to do the right and moral thing? Or should the Org's own sense of morality and justice make it proactive rather than reactive when formulating its child safeguarding procedures? Again, you are wanting to bend the discussion away from the issues and make it about me or other institutions. To steer you back on track, a reminder: the article in the OP is about JWs. This thread is in the JW section. Ergo, we are discussing how JWs deal with child abuse within their organization. Court case after court case after public inquiry after court case has shown there is a pattern in how disclosure of abuse has been mishandled by the Org. The directives to the BOE as well as JW culture explain why this pattern exists. There are huge flaws in the Org's approach that desperately need addressing. In general. Now you have that clarified, What if the wrongdoer isn't disfellowshipped because the elders believe s/he is repentant? How can the congregation's children be protected while s/he continues as a member? Your suggestions please. Do you not think child abuse to be a crime? Do you not think that negligence and failure to provide a duty of care to vulnerable members of a faith community should be brought to civil court? And, most hilariously, are you really suggesting that a professional lawyer with 20 years experience is ignorant of the difference between 'criminality and civil culpability'? Historically, the Org's elders have already been 'taking the law into their own hands' by investigating and passing judgment on child abuse allegations internally within the congregation. This is why so many cases have been grossly mishandled, pedophiles had opportunity to abuse more JW children, and victims were further harmed and traumatized. Regarding your nonsensical objection about 'forcing' - reporting to the police or child protection services is forcing a criminal act to be exposed and stopped, and the perpetrator of that crime to be called to account and punished. What should the elder do if he suspects child abuse and/or neglect? "If you suspect a child is being harmed, or has been harmed, you should report your concerns to the appropriate authorities, such as child protective services (CPS), in the State where the child resides. Each State has trained professionals who can evaluate the situation and determine whether help and services are needed. Most States have a toll-free number to call to report suspected child abuse and neglect. Child Welfare Information Gateway, a service of the Children’s Bureau, Administration for Children and Families (ACF), provides a list of State child abuse and neglect reporting numbers and information on how to make a report in each State. "Another resource for information about how and where to file a report of suspected child abuse or neglect is the Childhelp® National Child Abuse Hotline. Childhelp® can be reached 7 days a week, 24-hours a day, at its toll-free number, 1.800.4-A-CHILD® (1.800.422.4453)." - http://www.acf.hhs.gov/cb/faq/can6 "Anyone can report suspected child abuse or neglect. Reporting abuse or neglect can protect a child and get help for a family it may even save a child's life." - https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/responding/reporting/how/ "Anyone." Rather than dump all the responsibility of reporting the crime to a frightened and perhaps dysfunctional family, the elders can take the initiative to report themselves. What if the crime wasn't child abuse but murder? Should an elder keep an allegation to himself about a murder having taken place thinking, 'It's the victim's family that has the responsibility to notify the authorities - not me"? The article in the OP is not discussing this type of scenario but that of adults abusing minors. Besides, the latest August 2016 BOE letter clarifies what the Org. means by 'child abuse' on p.3: 10. Congregation Considerations: When discussing child sexual abuse from a congregation standpoint, we are not discussing a situation in which a minor who is a willing participant and who is approaching adulthood is involved in sexual activity with an adult who is a few years older than the minor. Nor, generally speaking, are we discussing situations in which only minors are involved. (See paragraphs 24-25.) Rather, we are referring to an adult guilty of sexually abusing a minor who is a young child, or an adult guilty of sexual involvement with a minor who is approaching adulthood but was not a willing participant. Baloney. You have to be convicted as a sex offender to be put on the sex offenders list. Elders are required to follow the Org's instructions. No mind-reading was involved. Exactly. The governmental authorities have those processes and powers. This is why they have to be called on to act when crimes have been committed. As the apostle Paul said, "Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience." - Rom. 13:1-5 (NLT) And what 'rules of evidence' does the congregation employ in its handling of child abuse allegations? Shouldn't 'evidence' rather be collected by professional police bodies rather than by untrained, volunteer leaders? Actually 2 cases - 2 victims who, out of more than 1000 recorded cases by the Australian Branch, were brave enough to relate their experiences before a public inquiry. It means that the UK WTS have been unsuccessful in blocking the Charity Commission from investigating how the UK congregations deal with child abuse allegations. The Commission can now go ahead with their inquiries. Read the article. Backing up to your initial statement, namely ... "as I recall, in the Australia case, that 1 witness “begged” the Elders NOT to turn her father into authorities. Are you suggesting by any means and force?" ... You were implying that, if a minor victim begged the elders not to turn in her father to the authorities for sexually abusing her, that the elders should comply; that the elders should not 'force' that action upon her. Hence my question about your mental state. Your suggestion is extremely irresponsible and dangerous, for such compliance would further enable the abuser to continue abusing. It's astonishing that I should have to spell this out to you as if you were a child yourself. You are projecting once again. What was complete and utter bunkum was your argument that 'forcing the child to the police department' - whether by the elders or the child's mother - would amount to 'child abduction.' This fancy of yours is totally ludicrous. Well duh. And your point is ...? Aaaand another senseless ad hominem rant. Your trademark. To repeat: The article in the OP is about JWs. This thread is in the JW section. Ergo, we are discussing how JWs deal with child abuse within their organization. Do you get how topical sections in a discussion forum work? So you believe historical child sexual abuse cases are not 'legitimate'? Are the government-led inquiries into institutional historical child abuse, because the cases may include instances that occurred 40, 50 years ago, likewise not 'legitimate' and are decided with 'the aid of corrupt lawyers'? Are you aware that many countries have a statute of limitations that bar victims from making civil claims for sexual crimes after a set amount of time? So, a victim would be unable to civilly prosecute somebody 40, 50 years later. Are you familiar with the controversy surrounding Bill Cosby and why it has been so difficult to prosecute him due to the time that has elapsed since his alleged crimes? This is the most sensible thing you have said in the whole discussion. However, evidence gathering is done by the police and forensic teams, and the legal system decides whether there is enough to potentially secure a conviction in criminal court and/or a favorable judgment in civil court. Huh? What does that even mean? Yeah whatever. This scripture has no bearing on how best to safeguard children now.

What's 'all me'? After sifting out all the raving, this was the sum of your post. Is that what you think the lawsuits are about? 'Ambulance chasing lawyers'? Victims' suffering and their wanting redress for institutional negligence resulting in their harm means nothing to you? Are you, then, of the same mindset as the elders questioned at the ARC, that governments have to legislate to make 'God's organization' do the right and moral thing? You seem to have made an erroneous assumption about what I think. I cannot understand the gobbledegook you just wrote there. I'll try again: What if the wrongdoer isn't disfellowshipped because the elders believe s/he is repentant? How can the congregation's children be protected while s/he continues as a member? Can you manage to respond with something half-coherent this time? I know because of what is contained in the elders manual and the latest BOE letters on child abuse. Have you read them? '1 witness'? What nonsense! Are you suggesting that an abused and traumatized child should make decisions about whether her/his abuser parent should face criminal justice or not? Are you insane? Complete and utter bunkum. To answer that, refer to these websites: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/cb/faq/can6 http://www.americanhumane.org/children/stop-child-abuse/fact-sheets/reporting-child-abuse-and-neglect.html I see you ignored my last question by embarking in a senseless ad hominem rant. I guess you believe the Org is better continuing to dig its heels in, point fingers elsewhere and resist correction. I would have to disagree.

What bugged me was that Ivery said the cameraman/neighbor "had it all wrong" when he was asked if he was a convict and on the register. I would have preferred something along the lines of, "Yes, that's me. I committed this terrible crime and I'm on the sex offender's register for life. I served my time, I repented and became one of Jehovah's Witness. Nevertheless, to allay your and the neighborhood's concerns, not only am I monitored by the authorities, but I have certain restrictions within the congregation, and an elder who knows my background has to accompany me whenever I'm out in field service sharing my faith. If you wish to check with the police, please be my guest. Good day to you, sir." Then with voice lowered, "Psst, and by the way, the more recent allegations against those sisters were never proven."

Youtube pulled the original video. Here's a new link to it: https://tv.wtsarchive.com/vid/jw-pedophile-preaching

So your response, Allen, to my question about how to better safeguard children in the Org is basically, Divert attention away from JW Org own failings and point at other religions' failings; Disfellowship and remove unrepentant wrongdoers in line with scriptural guidelines. Isn't that pretty much why the Org. is getting hammered with lawsuits and negative publicity on this issue in the first place? What if the wrongdoer isn't disfellowshipped because the elders believe s/he is repentant? How can the congregation's children be protected while s/he continues as a member? What about notifying child protective services or the police when an allegation comes to light? Do you think this should be included as standard procedure to improve safeguarding practices? Lastly, do you think it is the course of wisdom for the Org, rather than point the finger at what other religions have or have not done, to look candidly at itself, acknowledge its failings, and implement policies and procedures that raise the standards in keeping with current best practice as recommended by the secular authorities? (Luke 6:41, 42)