Ann O'Maly

I'll take that as a 'no.' ... asks somebody with two or more accounts and whose handle picture is of Wyatt Earp. Anyway, moving back more in line to the topic at hand, you criticize those who criticize the Org's mishandling of child abuse. I ask again - as we do not want to lose sight of the important central issue that children need to be protected and victims of abuse need redress and to see their abusers stopped and punished - with regard to the specific inadequacies of the JW Org, what in your opinion will help address their child safeguarding failures? Can you offer any possible improvements to the Org's child protection policies and its procedures after disclosure?

Again, you cannot know what criticisms I make elsewhere ... unless you believe yourself to be cyber-omniscient. Do you believe yourself to be cyber-omniscient, Allen? Your initial allegation was that I was an "instigator, not a problem solver," to which I replied that the power to change policies and legislation was in the hands of the Org's leadership and secular authorities. Yes, there have been appalling failings in numerous institutions globally, and now those institutions are being investigated and called to account - rightly so. So with regard to the specific inadequacies of the JW Org, what in your opinion will help address their child safeguarding failures? I don't know why you referred to Mark 13:9. It's talking about being brought before the authorities for bearing witness to Jesus - not for doing wrong. A more applicable passage is the first few verses of Rom. 13.

Oops. I didn't see you'd already linked to the article before I did. Another noteworthy comment from it: Rom. 13:3-5 (NLT) - "For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience."

You do not know all the websites I post on and the handles I use. This section of the forum is for 'JW news' - not 'Catholic news' or 'Scientology news' or even 'Nuwaubianism news.' The article I posted falls into the category of 'JW news.' Can you at least try to make comments pertinent to the article and not make the thread about personalities (yet again)? Thanks. As you well know, the problem of inadequate safeguarding procedures can only be addressed by the Org's leadership or those secular bodies involved with legislation.

Any religion that has the same problem, that has mishandled the problem, that has negligently allowed victims to be harmed, needs their failings exposed - whether it's the Catholics, the Church of England, the Jewish or Muslim faith communities, the LDS, Moonies, Scientologists or Jehovah's Witnesses. Damn right that the JW Org is feeling the pressure too. The Org has a history of naivety and stubbornness in this area and has to be dragged by 'worldly' authorities into improving their safeguarding protocols. The Org is still lagging too far behind current best practice - even now after the latest BOE letter guidelines.

Jehovah's Witnesses under pressure over handling of sexual abuse claims Organisation faces fight to prevent Charity Commission examining its records of abuse claims after supreme court rejects its attempt to block inquiry A spokesman for the Jehovah’s Witnesses said: ‘We are in no position to, and neither would we wish to, force any victim of abuse to confront their attacker.’ Photograph: Fairfax Media via Getty Images The Jehovah’s Witnesses organisation is under increasing pressure to address its handling of sexual abuse allegations as it faces legal setbacks, bills of over £1m and a fight to prevent the Charity Commission examining its records of abuse claims. Last month a judge upheld a ruling against the UK’s leading Jehovah’s Witnesses charity, the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Britain (WTBTS), that the Jehovah’s Witnesses had failed to protect a woman, known in proceedings as A, from sexual abuse starting when she was four years old. Now the supreme court has rejected a highly unusual attempt by the WTBTS to block a Charity Commission inquiry into how the Jehovah’s Witnesses charity handles allegations of abuse. The extent of the charity’s challenges and the length of time they have gone on for are unprecedented in recent times, a spokesman for the Charity Commission said. In A’s case the high court awarded damages and the WTBTS have been left facing legal fees totalling about £1m after attempting to appeal against the judgement three times. The decision in A’s case sets a precedent that could expose the organisation to further claims. It continues to fight Charity Commission orders to provide documents on sexual abuse allegations, as well as other aspects of the inquiry, in lower courts. Fay Maxted, chief executive of the Survivors Trust, a national sexual assault charity, said: “These are cases where someone has been sexually violated and had their whole trust in the safety of their religious community blown away. “It’s deeply disappointing that a faith-based organisation appears to be so determined to try and avoid answering questions about its own behaviour … “This is something the Catholics and Church of England have also had to deal with – these big institutions will fight and fight every step of the way.” The ways in which large institutions – from the BBC to the Church of England – respond to allegations of sexual abuse has been under intense scrutiny in recent years. But the governmental investigation into the issue, the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse (IICSA), was thrown into turmoil following the unexpected resignation of its chair, Lowell Goddard, last week. The home secretary on Thursday appointed Prof Alexis Jay as the new chair. The Guardian understands that some survivors of sexual abuse by members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses are considering making submissions to the inquiry’s truth project, a strand gathering survivors’ testimony. A, the woman at the centre of the civil case, was abused by a senior member of her congregation for five years from the age of four. It emerged during court proceedings that he had confessed to a different attack and was removed from a senior role, but had “repented” and was allowed to continue within the congregation. The police were not told and her mother said in court that she had no recollection of being warned about him. A said her mother told leading members, known as “elders”, about the abuse when she was about 14. Her attacker had been released from jail for other sex attacks and was asking to return to the congregation, she said. “All the while I had it hanging over my head that if I wanted to raise any allegations … I would be forced into a judicial committee, I would have to confront him face to face,” she told the Guardian. Although the church can “disfellowship” – expel – people for minor offences, A says her abuser was allowed to remain. “Had they discovered he was playing the lottery, he would have been disfellowshipped without question, but he admitted to them he had abused children, and he still wasn’t disfellowshipped,” A said. She finally reported the abuse to the police after the elders did nothing. “I came to the view that I would either try and kill myself again, run away or just go to the police.” He died before the police could question him about the allegation. The judge ruled the congregation was “either not warned at all or not adequately warned” about the risk posed by A’s abuser. A spokesman for the Jehovah’s Witnesses said: “Anyone who commits the sin of child abuse faces expulsion from the congregation … Any suggestion that Jehovah’s Witnesses cover up child abuse is absolutely false.” He added: “Congregation elders do not discourage [reports to the authorities] or shield abusers from the authorities or from the consequences of their actions.” Another woman, Jane*, who is also suing the organisation after she was raped by a member as an adult in 1990, said she was urged to face her rapist at a private hearing known as a judicial committee. It left her “completely traumatised” and led to the breakup of her marriage, she said. Her attacker was eventually jailed in 2014, and she decided to sue after watching elders on the witness stand. “I thought, nobody’s taken responsibility for this. You could have held up your hands and said, ‘I’m sorry, we were in the wrong’,” Jane said. The Charity Commission launched statutory inquiries into Jehovah’s Witnesses charities in May 2014. This was shortly after claims emerged that elders in the Manchester New Moston congregation held a meeting at which three adult survivors of child sex abuse were brought face to face with their abuser, shortly after his release from prison for their abuse. A spokesman for the Jehovah’s Witnesses said: “We are in no position to, and neither would we wish to, force any victim of abuse to confront their attacker.” The commission, which has the power to investigate how charity trustees handle safeguarding, launched separate inquiries into the Manchester New Moston congregation and the WTBTS, which oversees the nation’s 1,500 congregations and is believed to play a significant role in handling allegations of abuse. The Jehovah’s Witnesses challenged both inquiries in the courts, arguing that they would breach the trustees’ human right to religious freedom. They also challenged orders to produce documents on how they had handled allegations of sexual abuse in recent years. Chris Willis Pickup, head of litigation at the Charity Commission, said: “Following two years of legal proceedings in five different courts and tribunals, the supreme court has finally brought Watch Tower’s challenge to our inquiry decision to an end.” The commission had received only “limited information” from the Jehovah’s Witnesses, he said. The Charity Commission is encouraging anyone with similar complaints to come forward. While a small number of charities launch legal appeals against the commission’s decisions, the extent of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ challenges and the length of time they have gone on for are unprecedented in recent times, a spokesman for the Charity Commission confirmed. A’s solicitor, Thomas Beale, said: “Sadly, given our experience of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ approach to litigation in cases involving survivors of child abuse, it comes as no surprise that WTBTS has at every stage relentlessly challenged the legal basis and scope of the Charity Commission’s inquiry. “In our case … they adopted similar tactics, dragging our client through years of painful and distressing litigation … We have always maintained that this is a time for apologies, not appeals.” The Jehovah’s Witnesses said in a statement: “Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor child abuse, a crime that sadly occurs in all sectors of society … We are committed to doing all we can to prevent child abuse and to provide spiritual comfort to any who have suffered from this terrible sin and crime. “We also see a need to protect the confidentiality of those who seek spiritual comfort. Nevertheless, we shall diligently abide by court judgments.” Name has been changed at the individual’s request - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/12/jehovahs-witnesses-under-pressure-over-handling-of-sexual-abuse-claims

Indeed. I guess He's the only one who does.

Methinks you are projecting, Allen. You stated, "Your salvation is incumbent to following God’s laws and commandments" It was shown that the apostle Paul disagrees with you. If following God's laws and commandments would save people, there would have been no need for Jesus. Because nobody can follow God's laws and commandments properly, everyone is condemned. That's why, according to Christian doctrine, everyone needs Jesus to be saved. You also stated: "The WTS has never implied they hold salvation." Again, three posters have provided numerous official Watchtower pronouncements demonstrating that you are mistaken. You may deflect and project all you like, but it doesn't change reality.

Another's? It was his own religion Jesus was criticizing.

Nope. Watchtower's own comments that contradict your claim. In short, nothing to do with your statement about being saved by works of law and the apostle Paul's rebuttal to that idea.

Didn't you read the quotes? What did I twist and manipulate? The quotes are verbatim and properly referenced so that anyone can check the wider context for themselves. They are what they are. Too bad if you don't like it. What has that to do with your statement about being saved by works of law and the apostle Paul's rebuttal to that idea (my Gal. quote and your Eph. reference)?

You may have a point there. These are examples of symbols:

Never? *** w93 9/15 p. 22 They Compassionately Shepherd the Little Sheep *** But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.) *** w89 9/1 p. 19 par. 7 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium *** Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil. (Revelation 7:9-17; 2 Corinthians 4:4) *** w85 3/1 p. 22 par. 21 Jehovah ‘Speeds It Up’ *** Let us point all homing “doves” to the way of “salvation” behind the protective walls of Jehovah’s organization and increase “praise” to him at its gates. *** w81 11/15 p. 21 par. 18 ‘Stay Awake and Keep Your Senses’ *** And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a “great war cry.” *** w67 8/15 p. 499 par. 4 The Way to Security *** So the visible congregation of God’s people has something to do with the provision of salvation today. Indeed, it has an important place in that provision. Every congregation forms a small part of God’s people. We cannot remain outside the organization of God’s people, separated from it, if we want to have Jehovah’s protection. *** w67 8/15 p. 503 par. 19 The Way to Security *** If we want to assure our everlasting salvation, we must stay within the bounds of Jehovah God’s loving provision associated with his visible organization, presided over by his High Priest.

*Sigh* I see you've completely missed the point of Jesus and the Christian gospel. If salvation was incumbent to following God's laws and commandments, the biblical 'true religion' would still be Judaism and everyone would still be doomed. Galatians 3:10-14New Living Translation (NLT) 10 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.”[a] 11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”[b] 12 This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.”[c] 13 But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[d] 14 Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised[e] Holy Spirit through faith. biblegateway.com

I'm afraid he was. https://ad1914.com/the-jw-experience-of-alan-feuerbacher/ But yes, he is an excellent researcher.

He wasn't an elder. It's just a joke cos Prince was a singer, see, and 'Hello, my name is Elder ...' is a (brilliantly performed) song from the musical The Book of Mormon where missionaries are elders, and Mormons knock on doors and ring doorbells like JWs do, and it's like Prince is ringing a doorbell and singing his presentation and ... although the joke was kinda lame it raised a smile but now any slight amusement that was there has been killed.

The shift really began in the 1943 book, The Truth Shall Make You Free. P. 239: "In Nebuchadnezzar's time the year began counting from the fall of the year, or about October 1, our time. Since he destroyed Jerusalem in the summer of 606 B .C., that year had its beginning in the fall of 607 B .C. and its ending in the fall of 606 B .C."

Absolutely. ZWT 1892, Feb. 15, R1372: The seventy years which followed the overthrow here depicted are frequently referred to as the seventy years captivity, but the Scriptures designate them the seventy years desolation of the land--a desolation which had been predicted by the prophet `Jeremiah (25:11`), saying, "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and this nation shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years." The completeness of the desolation is shown in `verses 8 and 9` of this lesson and also in `2 Chron. 36:17-21`; and although the king of Babylon allowed certain of the poor of the land to remain, and gave them vineyards and fields, yet it was the Lord's purpose that the land of Israel should be desolate seventy years, and so it was. In the same year Gedaliah, whom the king of Babylon had made governor and under whom many of the Jewish fugitives were disposed to return from neighboring countries, was assassinated, and the entire population speedily removed into Egypt for fear of the wrath of the king of Babylon.--`2 Kings 25:21-26`; `Jer. 41:1-3`; `43:5,6`. ZWT 1896, May 15, R1980: PERIOD OF THE "70 YEARS DESOLATION OF THE LAND."This period began after Zedekiah's kingdom was overturned when the land was left desolate (`Jer. 40:6-13`; `40:10-18`; `43:5-7`) Jer. 40 and 43 are about Gedaliah's assassination and the Jews' flight. There is such a thing as 'prophetic hyperbole.' E.g. Zephaniah 1:2, 3 - “I will completely sweep away everything from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah. 3 “I will sweep away man and beast. I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, And the stumbling blocks along with the wicked ones; And I will remove mankind from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah. This was just about punishing Judah. There is some archaeological evidence that areas of Judah remained inhabited throughout the Babylonian hegemony. Desolation/devastation doesn't necessarily mean complete depopulation. E.g. Nehemiah 2:3 - Then I said to the king: “Long live the king! Why should I not look gloomy when the city, the place where my forefathers are buried, lies in ruins, and its gates have been consumed by fire?” Nehemiah 2:17 - Finally I said to them: “You can see what a terrible situation we are in, how Jerusalem lies in ruins and its gates have been burned with fire. Come, let us rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, so that this disgrace will not continue.” The Jews had been repatriated decades before, yet Jerusalem was still considered to be a devastated, ruined place.

Really? *Runs off to look* Holy blunders! You're right! I think so too. It was poorly worded. It would have been better phrased, "The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when after Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne." Or better yet, insert the real year (587 B.C.E.) ... and delete the '2,520 year' part. But that's another discussion. The October thing is to do with Gedaliah's assassination in the 7th month (September/October) and when the remaining Jews fled to Egypt. Russell and Barbour maintained right from the beginning that the '70 years' related to the period when the land was 'desolate, without an inhabitant' and that only happened, according to their interpretation, once the remnant Jews fled to Egypt. Of course, as we know, Jeremiah's '70 years' related to the nations' servitude to Babylon which began long before Jerusalem's destruction. Not only that, but according to Ezekiel, there were still people living in Jerusalem's ruins in December: Ezekiel 33:21 - At length in the 12th year, in the tenth month, on the fifth day of the month of our exile, a man who had escaped from Jerusalem came to me and said: “The city has been struck down!” Ezekiel 33:23-29 - Then the word of Jehovah came to me, saying: 24 “Son of man, the inhabitants of these ruins are saying concerning the land of Israel, ‘Abraham was just one man, and yet he took possession of the land. But we are many; surely the land has been given to us as a possession.’ 25 “Therefore say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “You are eating food with the blood, and you lift up your eyes to your disgusting idols, and you keep shedding blood. So why should you possess the land? 26 You have relied on your sword, you engage in detestable practices, and each of you has defiled his neighbor’s wife. So why should you possess the land?”’ 27 “This is what you should say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “As surely as I am alive, those living in the ruins will fall by the sword; those in the open field, I will give as food to the wild beasts; and those in the strongholds and the caves will die by disease. 28 I will make the land an utterly desolate wasteland, and its arrogant pride will be brought to an end, and the mountains of Israel will be desolated, with no one passing through. 29 And they will have to know that I am Jehovah when I make the land an utterly desolate wasteland because of all the detestable things that they have done.”’

Relevant extract from July 15, 2014 letter to the BOE: 8. Determining who may participate in public witnessing: The Congregation Service Committee will select qualified publishers to participate in this feature of the ministry. Those selected should be known to present themselves in a dignified way. Their appearance and dress should be professional, well-arranged, and modest. Those selected should demonstrate discernment and a willingness to witness in different public settings, should enjoy and promote good relations with others, should be committed to taking the assignment seriously, and should be willing to cooperate with the body of elders. 9. If it is possible and practical, the service overseer or someone designated by the body of elders should organize a midweek and weekend schedule for each selected location. There is an advantage to having the literature displays set up in the same location, on the same days, and at the same times. They serve as a constant feature readily recognized by those in the area. 10. It is usually best for two or more persons to be assigned to work together. The safety of participants as well as their varying abilities should be taken into account when scheduling. Partners should remain watchful over each other since the conditions in a normally safe area can unexpectedly change.—Prov. 22:3; Eccl. 4:10, 12. [emphasis in red mine] There is nothing in there about not being allowed to sit or disabled people barred from taking part (discrimination!). In fact, whenever I see a literature cart in my town, the JWs are often sitting. If what you describe is all there is to it, it sounds like your local elders are making up unnecessary rules.

Hmm. But they were literal trees, right? Why, after A & E sinned, did the ToL have to be guarded if it was just a symbol? Why not remove the symbolism of the tree and make it ordinary instead? If sinful A & E had got to the ToL and eaten its fruit, what would have happened? Genesis 3:22-24 - Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad [This was after eating literal fruit from the literal tree - Ann]. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.

The video is nicely done - albeit fictional

Urban myth. http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

It just needs some candles or a showgirl bursting out the top tier.