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JW Insider

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  1. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    You make a good case here. Remember though, that those "facts on the ground" were obviously signs from the holy spirit itself. It was about how men like Paul and Barnabas were showing powerful works that could only be attributed to the holy spirit, which matched Joel 3, for example. And the evidence that those ones they were preaching to were also seeing manifestations of the holy spirit ("signs and wonders"), just as you mentioned happened with Cornelius.
    (Acts 15:4-8) . . .they related the many things God had done by means of them. . . . 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also.
    Manifestations of the holy spirit should not be confused with the beginnings of a great war, however. For all we know, Satan could have influenced the timing of this war just to fool us into thinking it was a sign. And we know that Jesus said the parousia would come as a surprise, and that it would not be observed through signs.
    (Luke 17:20) 20 On being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God was coming, he answered them: “The Kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness;
    The new Study Bible shows how we have made a mistake in translating this verse:
    17:20
    with striking observableness: The Greek expression used here occurs only once in the Christian Greek Scriptures and is derived from a verb meaning “to watch closely; to observe.” According to some scholars, medical writers used this expression when they described watching the symptoms of disease. The way the word is used here seems to convey the idea that the Kingdom of God is not coming in a way that is obvious to all.
    If you think about it, it's just the opposite of the conclusion. The word actually means that the kingdom will not come with signs that can be observed. It really means the opposite of "striking" observableness. Medical writers used the term to mean "signs that can be observed." (Observations that were the opposite of striking.) Jesus said it would NOT come this way. Of course, Jesus also said people would be fooled by thinking that "wars" would be a sign of the end.
    (Matthew 24:4-6) . . .In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, . . . 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
    If Jesus was right, and I think he was, then people would be anxious to see signs, and be misled by things like wars and earthquakes. So he had to remind them that the parousia was actually coming unexpectedly, like a thief. You couldn't look for signs that it was coming, because the actual sign would shake the heavens, after it was too late.
  2. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    Think about the timing, however. Revelation will have plenty to say about spiritual Israel. The grand fulfillment is only through spiritual Israel. A lot of "whiz-bang" action happened around 1914, as TTH has said. And the world saw many important historical changes. But in what way did the Jerusalem above give birth to the sons of the kingdom (the 144,000) in that year? Weren't people still being brought into that Kingdom after 1914 that had already begun being brought in well before 1914?
    (Colossians 1:13) . . .He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son. . .
    (Revelation 1:4-6) . . .May you have undeserved kindness and peace from. . . Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .
    (Luke 22:29, 30) . . .and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
    The scriptures speak of a kingdom established in the first century, and humans being drawn into that kingdom as citizens of that kingdom starting in the first century. But when they inherit the kingdom it will be after the harvest, at a time when they "shine" and sit on thrones.
    (Matthew 13:41-43) . . .The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, . . . 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.
    The kingdom can appear to have a slow beginning from a human perspective. Jesus gave many illustrations about the kingdom that show this.
     
  3. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    And Jesus made the same point to his disciples, too, about the second manifestation of his Kingdom. They were looking for a sign to be able to know when the destructive end (synteleia) would come. But Jesus said that signs like wars, earthquakes, and famines could be misleading. It would come as a surprise. Just as it was for the people of Sodom on the day that Lot went out of the city.
    I would agree that there are two sides to this, but I'm looking for the one that is most consistent with the whole of the scriptures, not just a few verses picked out here and there.
     
  4. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    This is actually the entire point!
    (1 Corinthians 2:14-16) . . .But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
    (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5) 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;
    If we concern ourselves with "times and seasons" we are not being obedient to the Christ. The physical man wants signs. The physical man wants to be able to prove how discerning he is, and be able to predict dates like 1878, 1881, 1914, 1918, 1925, just a few more months in the 1940's, just a few more months not years in the 1970's, before the year 2000, within two sets of overlapping lifespans from 1914, etc. It's all about pride and presumptuousness. It's about "look at me" or "look at us" we have special knowledge, like gnostics.
    It should be enough to know that we are already in the season, the "day of salvation." And have been since the Bible told us so. Long before Jesus came, there were prophecies that pointed to time periods. Those were fulfilled. But Jesus appearance in the first century was the end of that type of prophecy. From then on we are in the last days:
    (Hebrews 1:1-3) 1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now [in the last days]* he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, . . . And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
    *the literal Greek in Heb 1:2 is the same as when Paul called Timothy's days the "last days" in 2 Tim 3:1-5.
    (2 Corinthians 6:2) . . .Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.
    (Romans 3:26) 26 This was to demonstrate his own righteousness in this present season. . .
    (Romans 13:11, 12) . . .And do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12 The night is well along; the day has drawn near. . . .
    (1 Peter 1:10-12) . . .Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. . .
  5. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    This is actually the entire point!
    (1 Corinthians 2:14-16) . . .But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
    (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5) 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;
    If we concern ourselves with "times and seasons" we are not being obedient to the Christ. The physical man wants signs. The physical man wants to be able to prove how discerning he is, and be able to predict dates like 1878, 1881, 1914, 1918, 1925, just a few more months in the 1940's, just a few more months not years in the 1970's, before the year 2000, within two sets of overlapping lifespans from 1914, etc. It's all about pride and presumptuousness. It's about "look at me" or "look at us" we have special knowledge, like gnostics.
    It should be enough to know that we are already in the season, the "day of salvation." And have been since the Bible told us so. Long before Jesus came, there were prophecies that pointed to time periods. Those were fulfilled. But Jesus appearance in the first century was the end of that type of prophecy. From then on we are in the last days:
    (Hebrews 1:1-3) 1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now [in the last days]* he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, . . . And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
    *the literal Greek in Heb 1:2 is the same as when Paul called Timothy's days the "last days" in 2 Tim 3:1-5.
    (2 Corinthians 6:2) . . .Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.
    (Romans 3:26) 26 This was to demonstrate his own righteousness in this present season. . .
    (Romans 13:11, 12) . . .And do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12 The night is well along; the day has drawn near. . . .
    (1 Peter 1:10-12) . . .Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. . .
  6. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    And Jesus made the same point to his disciples, too, about the second manifestation of his Kingdom. They were looking for a sign to be able to know when the destructive end (synteleia) would come. But Jesus said that signs like wars, earthquakes, and famines could be misleading. It would come as a surprise. Just as it was for the people of Sodom on the day that Lot went out of the city.
    I would agree that there are two sides to this, but I'm looking for the one that is most consistent with the whole of the scriptures, not just a few verses picked out here and there.
     
  7. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    And Jesus made the same point to his disciples, too, about the second manifestation of his Kingdom. They were looking for a sign to be able to know when the destructive end (synteleia) would come. But Jesus said that signs like wars, earthquakes, and famines could be misleading. It would come as a surprise. Just as it was for the people of Sodom on the day that Lot went out of the city.
    I would agree that there are two sides to this, but I'm looking for the one that is most consistent with the whole of the scriptures, not just a few verses picked out here and there.
     
  8. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    You make a good case here. Remember though, that those "facts on the ground" were obviously signs from the holy spirit itself. It was about how men like Paul and Barnabas were showing powerful works that could only be attributed to the holy spirit, which matched Joel 3, for example. And the evidence that those ones they were preaching to were also seeing manifestations of the holy spirit ("signs and wonders"), just as you mentioned happened with Cornelius.
    (Acts 15:4-8) . . .they related the many things God had done by means of them. . . . 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also.
    Manifestations of the holy spirit should not be confused with the beginnings of a great war, however. For all we know, Satan could have influenced the timing of this war just to fool us into thinking it was a sign. And we know that Jesus said the parousia would come as a surprise, and that it would not be observed through signs.
    (Luke 17:20) 20 On being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God was coming, he answered them: “The Kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness;
    The new Study Bible shows how we have made a mistake in translating this verse:
    17:20
    with striking observableness: The Greek expression used here occurs only once in the Christian Greek Scriptures and is derived from a verb meaning “to watch closely; to observe.” According to some scholars, medical writers used this expression when they described watching the symptoms of disease. The way the word is used here seems to convey the idea that the Kingdom of God is not coming in a way that is obvious to all.
    If you think about it, it's just the opposite of the conclusion. The word actually means that the kingdom will not come with signs that can be observed. It really means the opposite of "striking" observableness. Medical writers used the term to mean "signs that can be observed." (Observations that were the opposite of striking.) Jesus said it would NOT come this way. Of course, Jesus also said people would be fooled by thinking that "wars" would be a sign of the end.
    (Matthew 24:4-6) . . .In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, . . . 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
    If Jesus was right, and I think he was, then people would be anxious to see signs, and be misled by things like wars and earthquakes. So he had to remind them that the parousia was actually coming unexpectedly, like a thief. You couldn't look for signs that it was coming, because the actual sign would shake the heavens, after it was too late.
  9. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    And there is also the problem of the "birth pains." The "Insight" book inadvertently admitted that this shouldn't have been in the book of Revelation if it was about spiritual Jerusalem. Also if the birth pains started in 1914, then when is the birth? Why do we say the birth of the kingdom is in 1914, but then the birth pangs start and go on for another 107+ years?
  10. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    And there is also the problem of the "birth pains." The "Insight" book inadvertently admitted that this shouldn't have been in the book of Revelation if it was about spiritual Jerusalem. Also if the birth pains started in 1914, then when is the birth? Why do we say the birth of the kingdom is in 1914, but then the birth pangs start and go on for another 107+ years?
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    This is actually the entire point!
    (1 Corinthians 2:14-16) . . .But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
    (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5) 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;
    If we concern ourselves with "times and seasons" we are not being obedient to the Christ. The physical man wants signs. The physical man wants to be able to prove how discerning he is, and be able to predict dates like 1878, 1881, 1914, 1918, 1925, just a few more months in the 1940's, just a few more months not years in the 1970's, before the year 2000, within two sets of overlapping lifespans from 1914, etc. It's all about pride and presumptuousness. It's about "look at me" or "look at us" we have special knowledge, like gnostics.
    It should be enough to know that we are already in the season, the "day of salvation." And have been since the Bible told us so. Long before Jesus came, there were prophecies that pointed to time periods. Those were fulfilled. But Jesus appearance in the first century was the end of that type of prophecy. From then on we are in the last days:
    (Hebrews 1:1-3) 1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now [in the last days]* he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, . . . And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
    *the literal Greek in Heb 1:2 is the same as when Paul called Timothy's days the "last days" in 2 Tim 3:1-5.
    (2 Corinthians 6:2) . . .Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.
    (Romans 3:26) 26 This was to demonstrate his own righteousness in this present season. . .
    (Romans 13:11, 12) . . .And do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12 The night is well along; the day has drawn near. . . .
    (1 Peter 1:10-12) . . .Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. . .
  12. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    It's a good point. I thought about how that might apply when Jesus became the Messiah (Christ) at his baptism. It was at that point when Jehovah said, This is my Son (the approved heir). That would make him "king-designate" at this point and his actual enthronement would be when he sat at the Father's right hand. Of course, another possibility is that Jesus became king in the first century, and then when his kingdom removes all God's enemies from the earth at Armageddon, Jesus becomes king when his millennial reign begins. If there were Biblical evidence for a third point in time when Jesus becomes king again between those two events, then 1914 would be as good a place as any. (So would 70 C.E. 99 C.E. 315 C.E. 1412 C.E. 1798 C.E. or 2021 C.E., etc.)
    On the idea that Jesus may have been seen as king-designate at his baptism, before being enthroned, I think we have some pretty good scriptural evidence, too.
    For example, the expression in the Bible that was associated with Hebrew kings of the line of David was a statement from Jehovah: "I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his Father." We see it used of both David and Solomon and Jesus, because they were the rightful heir to the throne, each in their own time.
    (1 Chronicles 28:1-7) . . .And David proceeded to congregate all the princes of Israel,. . .  2 Then David the king rose to his feet and said: “Hear me, my brothers and my people. . . . 3 And the [true] God himself said to me, ‘You will not build a house to my name; for a man of wars you are, and blood you have spilled.’ . . . he then chose Solʹo·mon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingship of Jehovah over Israel. 6 “Further, he said to me, ‘Solʹo·mon your son is the one that will build my house and my courtyards; for I have chosen him as my son, and I myself shall become his father. 7 And I shall certainly establish his kingship firmly to time indefinite if he will be strongly resolved to do my commandments and my judicial decisions, as at this day.’
    The expression was called the "decree of Jehovah."
    (Psalm 2:7-9)  7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.  8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.  9 You will break them with an iron scepter, And you will smash them like a piece of pottery.”
    *** w06 5/15 p. 17 par. 6 Highlights From Book One of Psalms ***
    2:7—What is “the decree of Jehovah”? This decree is the covenant for a Kingdom, which Jehovah has made with his beloved Son, Jesus Christ.—Luke 22:28, 29.
    But notice that this decree was applied both at Jesus' baptism and at his resurrection.
    *** it-2 p. 1001 Son(s) of God ***
    With regard to Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, Paul applied part of Psalm 2 to that occasion, quoting God’s words, “You are my son, I have become your Father this day,” and he also applied words from God’s covenant with David, namely: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son.” (Ps 2:7; 2Sa 7:14; Ac 13:33; Heb 1:5; compare Heb 5:5.). . .
    *** it-2 p. 1001 Son(s) of God ***
    Thus, it is seen that, even as David as a grown man could ‘become God’s son’ in a special sense, so, too, Christ Jesus also ‘became God’s Son’ in a special way, at the time of his baptism and at his resurrection, and also, evidently, at the time of his entrance into full Kingdom glory.
    *** w04 7/15 pp. 18-19 pars. 13-17 “The Decree of Jehovah” Cannot Fail ***
    13 The Messianic King now speaks. He says: “Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah [who has made with his Son a covenant for the Kingdom]; he [Jehovah God] has said to me: ‘You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.’” (Psalm 2:7) Christ referred to the Kingdom covenant when he told his apostles: “You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.”—Luke 22:28, 29.
    14 As foretold at Psalm 2:7, Jehovah acknowledged Jesus as His Son at his baptism and by resurrecting him to spirit life. (Mark 1:9-11; Romans 1:4; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5) Yes, the King of the heavenly Kingdom is God’s only-begotten Son. (John 3:16) As the royal descendant of King David, Jesus holds incontestable title to kingship. (2 Samuel 7:4-17; Matthew 1:6, 16). . .
    17 The scepters of kings of ancient times were symbols of royal authority. Some scepters were made of iron, like the one spoken of in this psalm. The imagery here used indicates the ease with which Christ the King will destroy the nations. A powerful blow with an iron scepter would shatter a potter’s earthenware vessel, smashing it beyond recovery.
    This appears to be exactly why Hebrews begins with the expression about Jesus being made heir of all things, already enthroned and already crowned and already holding a scepter.
    (Hebrews 1:1-2:9) . . .Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.. . .  he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. . . .5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” . . .8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. . . . 13 But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? . . .  . . .9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor . . . .
  13. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    And there is also the problem of the "birth pains." The "Insight" book inadvertently admitted that this shouldn't have been in the book of Revelation if it was about spiritual Jerusalem. Also if the birth pains started in 1914, then when is the birth? Why do we say the birth of the kingdom is in 1914, but then the birth pangs start and go on for another 107+ years?
  14. Downvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from NoisySrecko in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    That's always a strong possibility that I'm misusing them. That's the reason, of course, that I'm on a discussion forum to get some feedback on these opinions.
    Also, I understand that when something is taught in basically the same way for about 70 out of the last 140 years of WTS history, that we are hesitant to think about alternatives because we are afraid that our entire "investment" in Truth might be wrong. So some of us kick and scream in a tantrum, some of us flail and grasp at straws, and some of us get haughty, and some of us get depressed, and some patiently wait for truth, and some jab at personalities.
    But just as I had hoped for, some like you will actually address the concerns and look for actual holes in the alternative presentation. Anna has done the same with the thoughtfulness into the 2,000 years of "conquering" being a failure. "Witness" said pretty much the same thing but with a different point in view.
    Something else I want to say again, even if I've said it often enough: The WTS presents its view as solid, unassailable fact. Period. Therefore, if we conscientiously believe we are trying to take a stand against strongly entrenched things (which in this case are based on long traditions we got from 18th and 19th century Christendom), then we need to present the alternative with as much solid scriptural basis as we can.
    (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5) . . .For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;
    (1 Peter 4:11) 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as it were [the] sacred pronouncements of God; if anyone ministers, [let him minister] as dependent on the strength that God supplies; . . .
    If we have attempted to "make sure of the more important things" then we shouldn't hold back in our manner as if we are being tossed about like a ship without a rudder.
    Naturally, this doesn't mean that our conclusions are right. And we don't want to be creating divisions in the congregation, even if they do turn out to be right. There should be a nicer way to present alternatives to strongly entrenched things that overturn our traditional reasonings, and I can't think of any other way other than to present what it seems like the Bible is saying with the same level of sureness with which the WTS presents it.
    So instead of responding to your points right now, I want to give your points and everyone else's some more consideration.
  15. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    It's a good point. I thought about how that might apply when Jesus became the Messiah (Christ) at his baptism. It was at that point when Jehovah said, This is my Son (the approved heir). That would make him "king-designate" at this point and his actual enthronement would be when he sat at the Father's right hand. Of course, another possibility is that Jesus became king in the first century, and then when his kingdom removes all God's enemies from the earth at Armageddon, Jesus becomes king when his millennial reign begins. If there were Biblical evidence for a third point in time when Jesus becomes king again between those two events, then 1914 would be as good a place as any. (So would 70 C.E. 99 C.E. 315 C.E. 1412 C.E. 1798 C.E. or 2021 C.E., etc.)
    On the idea that Jesus may have been seen as king-designate at his baptism, before being enthroned, I think we have some pretty good scriptural evidence, too.
    For example, the expression in the Bible that was associated with Hebrew kings of the line of David was a statement from Jehovah: "I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his Father." We see it used of both David and Solomon and Jesus, because they were the rightful heir to the throne, each in their own time.
    (1 Chronicles 28:1-7) . . .And David proceeded to congregate all the princes of Israel,. . .  2 Then David the king rose to his feet and said: “Hear me, my brothers and my people. . . . 3 And the [true] God himself said to me, ‘You will not build a house to my name; for a man of wars you are, and blood you have spilled.’ . . . he then chose Solʹo·mon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingship of Jehovah over Israel. 6 “Further, he said to me, ‘Solʹo·mon your son is the one that will build my house and my courtyards; for I have chosen him as my son, and I myself shall become his father. 7 And I shall certainly establish his kingship firmly to time indefinite if he will be strongly resolved to do my commandments and my judicial decisions, as at this day.’
    The expression was called the "decree of Jehovah."
    (Psalm 2:7-9)  7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.  8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.  9 You will break them with an iron scepter, And you will smash them like a piece of pottery.”
    *** w06 5/15 p. 17 par. 6 Highlights From Book One of Psalms ***
    2:7—What is “the decree of Jehovah”? This decree is the covenant for a Kingdom, which Jehovah has made with his beloved Son, Jesus Christ.—Luke 22:28, 29.
    But notice that this decree was applied both at Jesus' baptism and at his resurrection.
    *** it-2 p. 1001 Son(s) of God ***
    With regard to Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, Paul applied part of Psalm 2 to that occasion, quoting God’s words, “You are my son, I have become your Father this day,” and he also applied words from God’s covenant with David, namely: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son.” (Ps 2:7; 2Sa 7:14; Ac 13:33; Heb 1:5; compare Heb 5:5.). . .
    *** it-2 p. 1001 Son(s) of God ***
    Thus, it is seen that, even as David as a grown man could ‘become God’s son’ in a special sense, so, too, Christ Jesus also ‘became God’s Son’ in a special way, at the time of his baptism and at his resurrection, and also, evidently, at the time of his entrance into full Kingdom glory.
    *** w04 7/15 pp. 18-19 pars. 13-17 “The Decree of Jehovah” Cannot Fail ***
    13 The Messianic King now speaks. He says: “Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah [who has made with his Son a covenant for the Kingdom]; he [Jehovah God] has said to me: ‘You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.’” (Psalm 2:7) Christ referred to the Kingdom covenant when he told his apostles: “You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.”—Luke 22:28, 29.
    14 As foretold at Psalm 2:7, Jehovah acknowledged Jesus as His Son at his baptism and by resurrecting him to spirit life. (Mark 1:9-11; Romans 1:4; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5) Yes, the King of the heavenly Kingdom is God’s only-begotten Son. (John 3:16) As the royal descendant of King David, Jesus holds incontestable title to kingship. (2 Samuel 7:4-17; Matthew 1:6, 16). . .
    17 The scepters of kings of ancient times were symbols of royal authority. Some scepters were made of iron, like the one spoken of in this psalm. The imagery here used indicates the ease with which Christ the King will destroy the nations. A powerful blow with an iron scepter would shatter a potter’s earthenware vessel, smashing it beyond recovery.
    This appears to be exactly why Hebrews begins with the expression about Jesus being made heir of all things, already enthroned and already crowned and already holding a scepter.
    (Hebrews 1:1-2:9) . . .Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.. . .  he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. . . .5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” . . .8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. . . . 13 But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? . . .  . . .9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor . . . .
  16. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Thinking in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    That's always a strong possibility that I'm misusing them. That's the reason, of course, that I'm on a discussion forum to get some feedback on these opinions.
    Also, I understand that when something is taught in basically the same way for about 70 out of the last 140 years of WTS history, that we are hesitant to think about alternatives because we are afraid that our entire "investment" in Truth might be wrong. So some of us kick and scream in a tantrum, some of us flail and grasp at straws, and some of us get haughty, and some of us get depressed, and some patiently wait for truth, and some jab at personalities.
    But just as I had hoped for, some like you will actually address the concerns and look for actual holes in the alternative presentation. Anna has done the same with the thoughtfulness into the 2,000 years of "conquering" being a failure. "Witness" said pretty much the same thing but with a different point in view.
    Something else I want to say again, even if I've said it often enough: The WTS presents its view as solid, unassailable fact. Period. Therefore, if we conscientiously believe we are trying to take a stand against strongly entrenched things (which in this case are based on long traditions we got from 18th and 19th century Christendom), then we need to present the alternative with as much solid scriptural basis as we can.
    (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5) . . .For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;
    (1 Peter 4:11) 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as it were [the] sacred pronouncements of God; if anyone ministers, [let him minister] as dependent on the strength that God supplies; . . .
    If we have attempted to "make sure of the more important things" then we shouldn't hold back in our manner as if we are being tossed about like a ship without a rudder.
    Naturally, this doesn't mean that our conclusions are right. And we don't want to be creating divisions in the congregation, even if they do turn out to be right. There should be a nicer way to present alternatives to strongly entrenched things that overturn our traditional reasonings, and I can't think of any other way other than to present what it seems like the Bible is saying with the same level of sureness with which the WTS presents it.
    So instead of responding to your points right now, I want to give your points and everyone else's some more consideration.
  17. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    It's a good point. I thought about how that might apply when Jesus became the Messiah (Christ) at his baptism. It was at that point when Jehovah said, This is my Son (the approved heir). That would make him "king-designate" at this point and his actual enthronement would be when he sat at the Father's right hand. Of course, another possibility is that Jesus became king in the first century, and then when his kingdom removes all God's enemies from the earth at Armageddon, Jesus becomes king when his millennial reign begins. If there were Biblical evidence for a third point in time when Jesus becomes king again between those two events, then 1914 would be as good a place as any. (So would 70 C.E. 99 C.E. 315 C.E. 1412 C.E. 1798 C.E. or 2021 C.E., etc.)
    On the idea that Jesus may have been seen as king-designate at his baptism, before being enthroned, I think we have some pretty good scriptural evidence, too.
    For example, the expression in the Bible that was associated with Hebrew kings of the line of David was a statement from Jehovah: "I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his Father." We see it used of both David and Solomon and Jesus, because they were the rightful heir to the throne, each in their own time.
    (1 Chronicles 28:1-7) . . .And David proceeded to congregate all the princes of Israel,. . .  2 Then David the king rose to his feet and said: “Hear me, my brothers and my people. . . . 3 And the [true] God himself said to me, ‘You will not build a house to my name; for a man of wars you are, and blood you have spilled.’ . . . he then chose Solʹo·mon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingship of Jehovah over Israel. 6 “Further, he said to me, ‘Solʹo·mon your son is the one that will build my house and my courtyards; for I have chosen him as my son, and I myself shall become his father. 7 And I shall certainly establish his kingship firmly to time indefinite if he will be strongly resolved to do my commandments and my judicial decisions, as at this day.’
    The expression was called the "decree of Jehovah."
    (Psalm 2:7-9)  7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.  8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.  9 You will break them with an iron scepter, And you will smash them like a piece of pottery.”
    *** w06 5/15 p. 17 par. 6 Highlights From Book One of Psalms ***
    2:7—What is “the decree of Jehovah”? This decree is the covenant for a Kingdom, which Jehovah has made with his beloved Son, Jesus Christ.—Luke 22:28, 29.
    But notice that this decree was applied both at Jesus' baptism and at his resurrection.
    *** it-2 p. 1001 Son(s) of God ***
    With regard to Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, Paul applied part of Psalm 2 to that occasion, quoting God’s words, “You are my son, I have become your Father this day,” and he also applied words from God’s covenant with David, namely: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son.” (Ps 2:7; 2Sa 7:14; Ac 13:33; Heb 1:5; compare Heb 5:5.). . .
    *** it-2 p. 1001 Son(s) of God ***
    Thus, it is seen that, even as David as a grown man could ‘become God’s son’ in a special sense, so, too, Christ Jesus also ‘became God’s Son’ in a special way, at the time of his baptism and at his resurrection, and also, evidently, at the time of his entrance into full Kingdom glory.
    *** w04 7/15 pp. 18-19 pars. 13-17 “The Decree of Jehovah” Cannot Fail ***
    13 The Messianic King now speaks. He says: “Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah [who has made with his Son a covenant for the Kingdom]; he [Jehovah God] has said to me: ‘You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.’” (Psalm 2:7) Christ referred to the Kingdom covenant when he told his apostles: “You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.”—Luke 22:28, 29.
    14 As foretold at Psalm 2:7, Jehovah acknowledged Jesus as His Son at his baptism and by resurrecting him to spirit life. (Mark 1:9-11; Romans 1:4; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5) Yes, the King of the heavenly Kingdom is God’s only-begotten Son. (John 3:16) As the royal descendant of King David, Jesus holds incontestable title to kingship. (2 Samuel 7:4-17; Matthew 1:6, 16). . .
    17 The scepters of kings of ancient times were symbols of royal authority. Some scepters were made of iron, like the one spoken of in this psalm. The imagery here used indicates the ease with which Christ the King will destroy the nations. A powerful blow with an iron scepter would shatter a potter’s earthenware vessel, smashing it beyond recovery.
    This appears to be exactly why Hebrews begins with the expression about Jesus being made heir of all things, already enthroned and already crowned and already holding a scepter.
    (Hebrews 1:1-2:9) . . .Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.. . .  he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. . . .5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” . . .8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. . . . 13 But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? . . .  . . .9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor . . . .
  18. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    Revelation 12 is a beautiful account, in symbolic language, about how the favored nation of Israel fulfilled the promise of producing the heir, the Christ, who would inherit the Kingdom.
    (Revelation 12:1) . . .Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman . . .
    We know that the nation of Israel was often spoken of as Jehovah's "woman" because it was through this woman that the heir to the kingdom would be produced.
    (Revelation 12:1, 2) . . .A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant.. . .
    Even the sun, moon and 12 stars were already associated with the nation of Israel.
    (Genesis 37:9) . . .After that he had still another dream, and he related it to his brothers and said: “Here I have had a dream once more, and here the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
    The twelve stars represented the twelve tribes of Israel, through whom the heir would be born.
    (Isaiah 7:13, 14) . . .“Listen, please, O house of David. Is it not enough that you try the patience of men? Must you also try the patience of God? 14 Therefore, Jehovah himself will give you a sign: Look! The young woman will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will name him Im·manʹu·el.
    (Matthew 1:22, 23) . . .All of this actually came about to fulfill what was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: 23 “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will name him Im·manʹu·el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.”
    (Revelation 12:3, 4) . . .Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.
    We all know about the machinations that Satan went through to try to devour the child, the heir. This was not only the acts of Herod, but the fact that Satan would try to tempt the heir at the beginning of his ministry, and that Israel was motivated to continue killing the prophets, and would even have Jesus himself killed.
    (Revelation 12:5) . . .And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne.
    Who else could this be but Jesus Christ? And Jesus was born in the first century, not in 1914!
    Interestingly, the Insight book gives us a reason to not apply this woman to the Jerusalem above, but to God's earthly woman:
    *** it-2 p. 187 Labor Pains ***
    God’s heavenly “woman” would, of course, be perfect, and the birth would be without literal pain. The labor pains would, therefore, symbolically indicate that the “woman” would realize that the birth was at hand; she would be in expectation of it shortly.—Re 12:2.
    In other words, the Insight book is admitting that there would not have been pain if this meant the Jerusalem above, so it was necessary to say that there wasn't any pain, even though the words of the book of Revelation says that there was pain.
    Even the murder of Jesus didn't destroy him because he was snatched away to God and to his throne.
    (Hebrews 1:3-14) . . .And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. . . . 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.
    (Revelation 12:6) 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.
    Naturally, there is no scripture that tells us exactly what the 1,260 days means, so I'm ready for anyone's guess here. Instead of making these days into years as we do for the 2,520 days, we make Revelation's 1,260 days mean something very close to literal days. These are supposed to mean the spring of 1919 until autumn of 1922.
    But it seems just as likely that the faithful ones in the favored nation of Israel would still find some protection for a time as Paul indicates:
    (Romans 11:1-26) . . .I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. . . . 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness. . . . The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it . . .11 So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not! ...12 Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean! . . .17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, . . . 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree! ...  A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. . . .
    I included what Paul said about the two olive trees, the natural olive and the wild olive, because Paul is clearly speaking about the nation of Israel, and how their blessing resulted in a much greater number "saved" from people of all nations, who then again will help to bring the full number of chosen Israelites to salvation. Paul appears to expect the much greater crowd from the nations to incite the remaining Israelites who hadn't yet responded to the Christian message.
    Revelation chapter 11 also speaks of the two olive trees, too, and Revelation 7 had just spoken of the full number from Israel compared to the much larger number from the nations who find salvation.
    These are all references to first century events which continue into our own day.
    It may also be of interest that our current doctrines put Jesus' death at the middle of the 7-year week (Daniel's 70th week of years). The ministry following Jesus death was still to the Israelites/Jews for 3 1/2 more years until Cornelius was baptized around the year 36 C.E. That would mean that Israel was fed for 1,260 days.
    I don't worry about the timing of the 1,260 days, here. But at least it doesn't contradict anything. The WTS versions of the 1,260 day periods do produce real contradictions which have been discussed previously on this forum.
    (Revelation 12:7-9) . . .And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
    This is correct. It is one of the other reasons I don't believe that Jesus fully cast Satan out of heaven until Jesus himself was snatched up to heaven. The word "snatched" is also the word Paul used when he spoke of Christians being "snatched" to heaven explaining that change in the twinkling of an eye, when they are "caught away".
    (1 Thessalonians 4:17) 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.
    Several of the scriptures that show how Satan was already being cast down in the first century have already been mentioned in previous posts.
    (Revelation 12:10-12) . . .“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”
    This is why Jesus never claimed to have "all authority" until he was resurrected. This is why he would not take full power over the demons during his ministry. His time had not yet come. As you say he could only do this when he received full authority to do so.
    (Matthew 28:18) . . .Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
     
  19. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    I'm saying that the Bible is correct and is very clear that Satan was thrown out of heaven when Jesus took office as king. The Bible is also very clear that Jesus was identified as "King of Kings" in the first century. It was the reason that the theme of the preaching by Jesus and then in Acts was the kingdom.
    (Acts 17:7) . . .All these men act in opposition to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king, Jesus.. . .
    When Jesus was enthroned at the right hand of his Father, it was time for Christians to be especially wary, because Satan was roaring and roving about, seeking to devour someone, just as he is today.
    (1 Peter 5:8) 8 Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.
    (2 Corinthians 6:2) . . .Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.
    (Ephesians 2:1, 2) . . .Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
    Obviously, if anyone believes that the Bible teaches Jesus became king in the first century, then Revelation 12 must be referring to the first century. Either that or Jesus becomes king twice, because there are two (or three) kingdoms.
    Jesus' kingdom over his congregation, where the members of that congregation are also a direct part of that kingdom, beginning in the first century. (Colossians 1:13) A kingdom reign that begins between the first century and the beginning of the 1,000 year reign. (The WTS puts this in 1914, based on a "special" interpretation 7 times in Daniel 4.) The kingdom reign of 1,000 years beginning just after the Great Tribulation and Armageddon. (Revelation 20:2-7) So it shouldn't surprise you that Revelation 12 makes perfect sense as a reference to the first century. But I see only one kingdom, not two or three. The Bible speaks of "THE Kingdom" and never distinguishes between two or three different kingdoms. It's God's Kingdom which Jehovah hands over to Jesus, his beloved Son.
    Of course, the kingdom develops over time so that we can expect different aspects and events at various times during that kingdom reign. Some of those events happened in the first century, more developments will happen before Armageddon, and final events happen at the end of the thousand years. 
    But you specifically asked about Revelation 12, so I'll give my opinion about how it fits the first century. It's just one possible option, and I'll put it in my next post. 
  20. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Pudgy in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    Revelation 12 is a beautiful account, in symbolic language, about how the favored nation of Israel fulfilled the promise of producing the heir, the Christ, who would inherit the Kingdom.
    (Revelation 12:1) . . .Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman . . .
    We know that the nation of Israel was often spoken of as Jehovah's "woman" because it was through this woman that the heir to the kingdom would be produced.
    (Revelation 12:1, 2) . . .A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant.. . .
    Even the sun, moon and 12 stars were already associated with the nation of Israel.
    (Genesis 37:9) . . .After that he had still another dream, and he related it to his brothers and said: “Here I have had a dream once more, and here the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
    The twelve stars represented the twelve tribes of Israel, through whom the heir would be born.
    (Isaiah 7:13, 14) . . .“Listen, please, O house of David. Is it not enough that you try the patience of men? Must you also try the patience of God? 14 Therefore, Jehovah himself will give you a sign: Look! The young woman will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will name him Im·manʹu·el.
    (Matthew 1:22, 23) . . .All of this actually came about to fulfill what was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: 23 “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will name him Im·manʹu·el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.”
    (Revelation 12:3, 4) . . .Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.
    We all know about the machinations that Satan went through to try to devour the child, the heir. This was not only the acts of Herod, but the fact that Satan would try to tempt the heir at the beginning of his ministry, and that Israel was motivated to continue killing the prophets, and would even have Jesus himself killed.
    (Revelation 12:5) . . .And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne.
    Who else could this be but Jesus Christ? And Jesus was born in the first century, not in 1914!
    Interestingly, the Insight book gives us a reason to not apply this woman to the Jerusalem above, but to God's earthly woman:
    *** it-2 p. 187 Labor Pains ***
    God’s heavenly “woman” would, of course, be perfect, and the birth would be without literal pain. The labor pains would, therefore, symbolically indicate that the “woman” would realize that the birth was at hand; she would be in expectation of it shortly.—Re 12:2.
    In other words, the Insight book is admitting that there would not have been pain if this meant the Jerusalem above, so it was necessary to say that there wasn't any pain, even though the words of the book of Revelation says that there was pain.
    Even the murder of Jesus didn't destroy him because he was snatched away to God and to his throne.
    (Hebrews 1:3-14) . . .And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. . . . 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.
    (Revelation 12:6) 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.
    Naturally, there is no scripture that tells us exactly what the 1,260 days means, so I'm ready for anyone's guess here. Instead of making these days into years as we do for the 2,520 days, we make Revelation's 1,260 days mean something very close to literal days. These are supposed to mean the spring of 1919 until autumn of 1922.
    But it seems just as likely that the faithful ones in the favored nation of Israel would still find some protection for a time as Paul indicates:
    (Romans 11:1-26) . . .I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. . . . 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness. . . . The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it . . .11 So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not! ...12 Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean! . . .17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, . . . 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree! ...  A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. . . .
    I included what Paul said about the two olive trees, the natural olive and the wild olive, because Paul is clearly speaking about the nation of Israel, and how their blessing resulted in a much greater number "saved" from people of all nations, who then again will help to bring the full number of chosen Israelites to salvation. Paul appears to expect the much greater crowd from the nations to incite the remaining Israelites who hadn't yet responded to the Christian message.
    Revelation chapter 11 also speaks of the two olive trees, too, and Revelation 7 had just spoken of the full number from Israel compared to the much larger number from the nations who find salvation.
    These are all references to first century events which continue into our own day.
    It may also be of interest that our current doctrines put Jesus' death at the middle of the 7-year week (Daniel's 70th week of years). The ministry following Jesus death was still to the Israelites/Jews for 3 1/2 more years until Cornelius was baptized around the year 36 C.E. That would mean that Israel was fed for 1,260 days.
    I don't worry about the timing of the 1,260 days, here. But at least it doesn't contradict anything. The WTS versions of the 1,260 day periods do produce real contradictions which have been discussed previously on this forum.
    (Revelation 12:7-9) . . .And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
    This is correct. It is one of the other reasons I don't believe that Jesus fully cast Satan out of heaven until Jesus himself was snatched up to heaven. The word "snatched" is also the word Paul used when he spoke of Christians being "snatched" to heaven explaining that change in the twinkling of an eye, when they are "caught away".
    (1 Thessalonians 4:17) 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.
    Several of the scriptures that show how Satan was already being cast down in the first century have already been mentioned in previous posts.
    (Revelation 12:10-12) . . .“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”
    This is why Jesus never claimed to have "all authority" until he was resurrected. This is why he would not take full power over the demons during his ministry. His time had not yet come. As you say he could only do this when he received full authority to do so.
    (Matthew 28:18) . . .Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
     
  21. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    Revelation 12 is a beautiful account, in symbolic language, about how the favored nation of Israel fulfilled the promise of producing the heir, the Christ, who would inherit the Kingdom.
    (Revelation 12:1) . . .Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman . . .
    We know that the nation of Israel was often spoken of as Jehovah's "woman" because it was through this woman that the heir to the kingdom would be produced.
    (Revelation 12:1, 2) . . .A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant.. . .
    Even the sun, moon and 12 stars were already associated with the nation of Israel.
    (Genesis 37:9) . . .After that he had still another dream, and he related it to his brothers and said: “Here I have had a dream once more, and here the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
    The twelve stars represented the twelve tribes of Israel, through whom the heir would be born.
    (Isaiah 7:13, 14) . . .“Listen, please, O house of David. Is it not enough that you try the patience of men? Must you also try the patience of God? 14 Therefore, Jehovah himself will give you a sign: Look! The young woman will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will name him Im·manʹu·el.
    (Matthew 1:22, 23) . . .All of this actually came about to fulfill what was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: 23 “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will name him Im·manʹu·el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.”
    (Revelation 12:3, 4) . . .Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.
    We all know about the machinations that Satan went through to try to devour the child, the heir. This was not only the acts of Herod, but the fact that Satan would try to tempt the heir at the beginning of his ministry, and that Israel was motivated to continue killing the prophets, and would even have Jesus himself killed.
    (Revelation 12:5) . . .And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne.
    Who else could this be but Jesus Christ? And Jesus was born in the first century, not in 1914!
    Interestingly, the Insight book gives us a reason to not apply this woman to the Jerusalem above, but to God's earthly woman:
    *** it-2 p. 187 Labor Pains ***
    God’s heavenly “woman” would, of course, be perfect, and the birth would be without literal pain. The labor pains would, therefore, symbolically indicate that the “woman” would realize that the birth was at hand; she would be in expectation of it shortly.—Re 12:2.
    In other words, the Insight book is admitting that there would not have been pain if this meant the Jerusalem above, so it was necessary to say that there wasn't any pain, even though the words of the book of Revelation says that there was pain.
    Even the murder of Jesus didn't destroy him because he was snatched away to God and to his throne.
    (Hebrews 1:3-14) . . .And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. . . . 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.
    (Revelation 12:6) 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.
    Naturally, there is no scripture that tells us exactly what the 1,260 days means, so I'm ready for anyone's guess here. Instead of making these days into years as we do for the 2,520 days, we make Revelation's 1,260 days mean something very close to literal days. These are supposed to mean the spring of 1919 until autumn of 1922.
    But it seems just as likely that the faithful ones in the favored nation of Israel would still find some protection for a time as Paul indicates:
    (Romans 11:1-26) . . .I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. . . . 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness. . . . The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it . . .11 So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not! ...12 Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean! . . .17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, . . . 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree! ...  A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. . . .
    I included what Paul said about the two olive trees, the natural olive and the wild olive, because Paul is clearly speaking about the nation of Israel, and how their blessing resulted in a much greater number "saved" from people of all nations, who then again will help to bring the full number of chosen Israelites to salvation. Paul appears to expect the much greater crowd from the nations to incite the remaining Israelites who hadn't yet responded to the Christian message.
    Revelation chapter 11 also speaks of the two olive trees, too, and Revelation 7 had just spoken of the full number from Israel compared to the much larger number from the nations who find salvation.
    These are all references to first century events which continue into our own day.
    It may also be of interest that our current doctrines put Jesus' death at the middle of the 7-year week (Daniel's 70th week of years). The ministry following Jesus death was still to the Israelites/Jews for 3 1/2 more years until Cornelius was baptized around the year 36 C.E. That would mean that Israel was fed for 1,260 days.
    I don't worry about the timing of the 1,260 days, here. But at least it doesn't contradict anything. The WTS versions of the 1,260 day periods do produce real contradictions which have been discussed previously on this forum.
    (Revelation 12:7-9) . . .And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
    This is correct. It is one of the other reasons I don't believe that Jesus fully cast Satan out of heaven until Jesus himself was snatched up to heaven. The word "snatched" is also the word Paul used when he spoke of Christians being "snatched" to heaven explaining that change in the twinkling of an eye, when they are "caught away".
    (1 Thessalonians 4:17) 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.
    Several of the scriptures that show how Satan was already being cast down in the first century have already been mentioned in previous posts.
    (Revelation 12:10-12) . . .“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”
    This is why Jesus never claimed to have "all authority" until he was resurrected. This is why he would not take full power over the demons during his ministry. His time had not yet come. As you say he could only do this when he received full authority to do so.
    (Matthew 28:18) . . .Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
     
  22. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Pudgy in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    I'm saying that the Bible is correct and is very clear that Satan was thrown out of heaven when Jesus took office as king. The Bible is also very clear that Jesus was identified as "King of Kings" in the first century. It was the reason that the theme of the preaching by Jesus and then in Acts was the kingdom.
    (Acts 17:7) . . .All these men act in opposition to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king, Jesus.. . .
    When Jesus was enthroned at the right hand of his Father, it was time for Christians to be especially wary, because Satan was roaring and roving about, seeking to devour someone, just as he is today.
    (1 Peter 5:8) 8 Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.
    (2 Corinthians 6:2) . . .Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.
    (Ephesians 2:1, 2) . . .Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
    Obviously, if anyone believes that the Bible teaches Jesus became king in the first century, then Revelation 12 must be referring to the first century. Either that or Jesus becomes king twice, because there are two (or three) kingdoms.
    Jesus' kingdom over his congregation, where the members of that congregation are also a direct part of that kingdom, beginning in the first century. (Colossians 1:13) A kingdom reign that begins between the first century and the beginning of the 1,000 year reign. (The WTS puts this in 1914, based on a "special" interpretation 7 times in Daniel 4.) The kingdom reign of 1,000 years beginning just after the Great Tribulation and Armageddon. (Revelation 20:2-7) So it shouldn't surprise you that Revelation 12 makes perfect sense as a reference to the first century. But I see only one kingdom, not two or three. The Bible speaks of "THE Kingdom" and never distinguishes between two or three different kingdoms. It's God's Kingdom which Jehovah hands over to Jesus, his beloved Son.
    Of course, the kingdom develops over time so that we can expect different aspects and events at various times during that kingdom reign. Some of those events happened in the first century, more developments will happen before Armageddon, and final events happen at the end of the thousand years. 
    But you specifically asked about Revelation 12, so I'll give my opinion about how it fits the first century. It's just one possible option, and I'll put it in my next post. 
  23. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    That's always a strong possibility that I'm misusing them. That's the reason, of course, that I'm on a discussion forum to get some feedback on these opinions.
    Also, I understand that when something is taught in basically the same way for about 70 out of the last 140 years of WTS history, that we are hesitant to think about alternatives because we are afraid that our entire "investment" in Truth might be wrong. So some of us kick and scream in a tantrum, some of us flail and grasp at straws, and some of us get haughty, and some of us get depressed, and some patiently wait for truth, and some jab at personalities.
    But just as I had hoped for, some like you will actually address the concerns and look for actual holes in the alternative presentation. Anna has done the same with the thoughtfulness into the 2,000 years of "conquering" being a failure. "Witness" said pretty much the same thing but with a different point in view.
    Something else I want to say again, even if I've said it often enough: The WTS presents its view as solid, unassailable fact. Period. Therefore, if we conscientiously believe we are trying to take a stand against strongly entrenched things (which in this case are based on long traditions we got from 18th and 19th century Christendom), then we need to present the alternative with as much solid scriptural basis as we can.
    (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5) . . .For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;
    (1 Peter 4:11) 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as it were [the] sacred pronouncements of God; if anyone ministers, [let him minister] as dependent on the strength that God supplies; . . .
    If we have attempted to "make sure of the more important things" then we shouldn't hold back in our manner as if we are being tossed about like a ship without a rudder.
    Naturally, this doesn't mean that our conclusions are right. And we don't want to be creating divisions in the congregation, even if they do turn out to be right. There should be a nicer way to present alternatives to strongly entrenched things that overturn our traditional reasonings, and I can't think of any other way other than to present what it seems like the Bible is saying with the same level of sureness with which the WTS presents it.
    So instead of responding to your points right now, I want to give your points and everyone else's some more consideration.
  24. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    That's always a strong possibility that I'm misusing them. That's the reason, of course, that I'm on a discussion forum to get some feedback on these opinions.
    Also, I understand that when something is taught in basically the same way for about 70 out of the last 140 years of WTS history, that we are hesitant to think about alternatives because we are afraid that our entire "investment" in Truth might be wrong. So some of us kick and scream in a tantrum, some of us flail and grasp at straws, and some of us get haughty, and some of us get depressed, and some patiently wait for truth, and some jab at personalities.
    But just as I had hoped for, some like you will actually address the concerns and look for actual holes in the alternative presentation. Anna has done the same with the thoughtfulness into the 2,000 years of "conquering" being a failure. "Witness" said pretty much the same thing but with a different point in view.
    Something else I want to say again, even if I've said it often enough: The WTS presents its view as solid, unassailable fact. Period. Therefore, if we conscientiously believe we are trying to take a stand against strongly entrenched things (which in this case are based on long traditions we got from 18th and 19th century Christendom), then we need to present the alternative with as much solid scriptural basis as we can.
    (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5) . . .For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;
    (1 Peter 4:11) 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as it were [the] sacred pronouncements of God; if anyone ministers, [let him minister] as dependent on the strength that God supplies; . . .
    If we have attempted to "make sure of the more important things" then we shouldn't hold back in our manner as if we are being tossed about like a ship without a rudder.
    Naturally, this doesn't mean that our conclusions are right. And we don't want to be creating divisions in the congregation, even if they do turn out to be right. There should be a nicer way to present alternatives to strongly entrenched things that overturn our traditional reasonings, and I can't think of any other way other than to present what it seems like the Bible is saying with the same level of sureness with which the WTS presents it.
    So instead of responding to your points right now, I want to give your points and everyone else's some more consideration.
  25. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    Neither Jehovah nor Jesus are ever literally "sitting on a throne." It's an expression that means to "rule as king." (Ps 110:1/1 Cor 10:25). When a king sits on his throne, it simply means he is ruling as king. But even if it were literal, he is still a king when he is sitting, and still a king when he stands, or when he rides a horse, or drives a chariot. In reality though, he is still the "sitting king" when he is standing. Another use of the expression "to sit on a throne" is to emphasize the acts of judgment that a king can perform when "sitting in judgment." If the king happens to be literally standing while judging, he is still "sitting in judgment."
    *** w72 3/1 p. 153 Does a Great Heavenly Organization Exist? ***
    We are not to assume that Jehovah sits on a literal throne or rides a literal chariot. To illustrate this fact, we find the psalmist using different symbols to portray the same thing:
    “Bless Jehovah, O my soul. O Jehovah my God, you have proved very great. With dignity and splendor you have clothed yourself, enwrapping yourself with light as with a garment, stretching out the heavens like a tent cloth, the One building his upper chambers with beams in the very waters, making the clouds his chariot, walking upon the wings of the wind, making his angels spirits, his ministers a devouring fire.”—Ps. 104:1-4.
    The symbolism here used throws light on Ezekiel’s chariot picture. Jehovah does not ride on literal clouds or walk upon the wind any more than he rides in a chariot. But he does use these natural phenomena at times as his agencies for doing certain things for mankind on earth. So the chariot represents something that Jehovah guides, directs and uses toward mankind. Just as the articles of furniture in the tabernacle and in Jehovah’s temple at Jerusalem were designed exactly according to his pattern to picture spiritual things of far greater importance, so with the chariot.—Heb. 8:5; 1 Chron. 28:11, 12, 19.
     
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