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JW Insider

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  1. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Isabella in Russia Overturns First Jehovah’s Witnesses Convictions   
    A Russian court has overturned the convictions of six Jehovah’s Witnesses accused of extremism, marking the first instance of the group's worshippers having their verdicts overturned in Russia, the group announced Wednesday.
    The court in Penza, some 550 kilometers southeast of Moscow, handed five adherents suspended two-year prison sentences in December. The sixth worshipper, Vladimir Alushkin, was jailed for six years after an investigation had shown that he had continued to run the local Jehovah’s Witnesses branch despite the group being outlawed in Russia.
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    Vladimir Alushkin, a Jehovah's Witnesses member who in December was jailed for six years, has been released after his conviction on extremism charges was overturned.
  2. Haha
    JW Insider reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in My letter today to the WT about God's love   
    Who else would they be full of?
  3. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in "THERE'S MORE MONEY GOING OUT, THAN COMING IN"...Except for Stephen Lett   
    In my opinion we are all equal before God....... no matter how talented you are......talent, money, influence, position all mean something in a materialistic world..... but it is our true spirituality that matters.
     
  4. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Arauna in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    I accept the lead of good examples. These "leaders" set a very good example in promoting international brotherhood, organizing efficient world wide preaching, designing an educational program that puts Bible examples in front of us constantly so we can learn from good and bad examples. Also, the level of morality that's promoted includes, not just the standard morality of fundamentalists, but also neutrality when it comes to participation in divisive politics and violent wars. I don't remain with my brothers and sisters because of a history of chronology doctrine, and I do my best to point out that this is a trap which could start rearing its ugly head again when the two-part generation starts running out.
    But as JTR said, find me another religion or association that I could join, and if it's better, I'll join it. Just make sure it has the same position on War, Trinity, Neutrality, Preaching, and New Heavens and New Earth.
  5. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    There is a feature where you can raise your hand..... so we do it as in a real meeting. If people are picked to answer it takes away spontaneity...... just my thought....
  6. Haha
  7. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Anna in The heavenly resurrection begins after the fall of Babylon the Great   
    This was a relatively recent change in CCJW doctrine.
    *** w15 3/15 p. 29 par. 18 Loyally Supporting Christ’s Brothers ***
    Before Armageddon breaks out, anointed ones will be taken to heaven.
    Prior to accepting the Biblical version of a "rapture" we taught that members of the anointed could continue to live out their lives on earth, either taken (raptured) at some time after Armageddon, or growing older and dying normally (of sickness?) while the rest of the world is growing younger and healthier, or being resurrected younger and healthier. That idea probably started to seem ludicrous.
    In 1990 the Watchtower became less dogmatic, but continued to build the doctrine around the now-obsolete traditions about types and antitypes:
    *** w90 8/15 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
    Will some anointed Christians survive the “great tribulation” to live on earth in the new world before being taken to heaven?
    Pointedly, the Bible does not say. . . . The Bible does not say that this will occur, yet certain patterns and prophecies have been taken to indicate that it might. . . . As an example involving Bible prophecy, The Watch Tower of December 15, 1928, discussed Micah 5:2-15. The book of Micah dealt with ‘the Assyrian’s’ desolating of Samaria and the Jews’ return from exile in Babylon. (Micah 1:1, 5-7; 4:10) But it also pointed to later developments, such as the Messiah’s birth in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2) Micah prophesied that after their deliverance from “the Assyrian,” “the remaining ones of Jacob” would become “like dew from Jehovah” and “like a maned young lion among droves of sheep.” (Micah 5:6-8) The Watch Tower commented: “This may be taken as an indication that some of the remnant will be on earth even after Armageddon is fought and will then have some more work to do in the name of the Lord and to his praise and glory.” Notice the modest, reasonable language used to introduce this possibility: “This may be taken as an indication.”
    What of a Bible account that might parallel such survival on earth? One example that has been presented concerns Noah and his family. Noah has been viewed as typifying Jesus in this time of the end. (Genesis 6:8-10; Matthew 24:37) As Noah led his wife and their three sons and daughters-in-law through the end of that ancient system, Christ will provide leadership for the remnant of his bride class and those who become children of the “Eternal Father,” Jesus. Noah’s wife survived the Flood and shared in the renewing of true worship on a cleansed earth. A parallel might be the survival into the new world of a remnant of the bride class.—Isaiah 9:6, 7; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 21:2, 9.
    Other Biblical accounts have also been viewed as suggesting that some of the anointed might live into the new world. For example, Jeremiah survived the destruction of Jerusalem; “the man” with the secretary’s inkhorn remained to see the executional work before he went back to give his report.—Ezekiel 9:4, 8, 11.
    Comments about the possibility that some of the anointed might survive into the new world are made with good intentions and in the light of Biblical precedents for trying to understand prophecies or patterns that could have later parallels. If it turns out that none of the anointed are left on earth, there will be no reason for dissatisfaction. We already have accepted that Biblical matters are understood better as time passes. For instance, The Watchtower of July 15, 1981, discussed Micah 5:6-9 again and explained that “the remnant of spiritual Israelites have not had to wait until after . . . Har–Magedon in order to be as a ‘dew’ of refreshment to people.” This discussion again offered the possibility that the remnant might survive God’s great war and for a while “continue to be as a refreshing ‘dew’ to the ‘great crowd’ of ‘other sheep.’” We can see, though, that the passing of time and the increase in spiritual light can broaden and alter our understanding of prophecy or of Bible dramas.—Proverbs 4:18.
    ... So it could be reasoned that some of the bride class will survive the great tribulation as evidence of Jehovah’s approval and protection. (Zephaniah 2:3; compare Matthew 24:22.) If they are thus preserved on earth, they could remain here until God chooses to take them to heaven.
    However, the presentation in Revelation is not in strict sequential order. And it is not as though the small remnant of anointed ones will be needed to get the new world underway, for they have already trained millions of loyal Christians who will live forever on earth. Accordingly, God could take his anointed ones to heaven immediately after the destruction of Babylon the Great, setting the stage for “the marriage of the Lamb” to occur. All the holy ones could thus share with Christ in ‘shepherding the nations with an iron rod’ in the remainder of the great tribulation. (Revelation 2:26, 27; 19:11-21) If that is how God handles things, all the 144,000 would be with Jesus to ‘rule as kings with the Christ for the entire one thousand years.’—Revelation 20:4.
    That article correctly noted that we could think about whether all of them are available for the marriage of the Lamb in heaven, and whether all of them could be available for sharing in shepherding the nations with an iron rod from heaven, or even whether all of them get to rule as kings for the entire thousand years. But all of these ideas would have required that we accept a kind of "rapture" even if shortly after Armageddon. So right up until that article in 1990, we still saw phrases like this:
    *** w90 7/15 p. 20 par. 17 Our Treasure, a Modern-Day Ministry of Glory ***
    The anointed know they must eventually finish their earthly course in death as Jesus did
    Even the article from 1981, although non-dogmatic, still concluded that the remnant would survive Armageddon, and watch the spectacle from their places on earth.
    *** w81 7/15 pp. 24-25 pars. 12-14 “Peoples Must Stream” to Life-giving Worship ***
    13 How many of the anointed remnant of Christ’s joint heirs will survive with them through “the war of the great day of God the Almighty” at Har–Magedon we do not know, nor for how long thereafter. But for whatever time it is, they will continue to be as a refreshing “dew” to the “great crowd” of “other sheep.” ...
    14 The remnant will take no military part in the “war of the great day of God the Almighty” at Har–Magedon. Like the Israelites in the days of King Jehoshaphat, they will merely stand and see the salvation of Jehovah by means of “the Lion that is of the tribe of Judah,” Jesus Christ. . . . (Mic. 4:13) Whatever is left behind after their destruction will be for use by the Har–Magedon survivors.
    *** w83 10/1 p. 16 par. 13 Millions Get Ready for Uninterrupted Life on Earth ***
    This means that a remnant of them are to survive the tribulation and be eyewitnesses of Jehovah’s strange act by which he will vindicate his sovereignty over heaven and earth.
    *** w81 7/15 p. 23 par. 7 “Peoples Must Stream” to Life-giving Worship ***
    Referring to this, the article “Ruler out of Bethlehem,” in the Watch Tower issue of December 15, 1928, said:
    This may be taken as an indication that some of the remnant will be on earth even after Armageddon is fought and will then have some more work to do in the name of the Lord and to his praise and glory.
    *** w70 1/15 p. 52 par. 11 Peace with God amid the “Great Tribulation” ***
    This included quite a number of the remnant who experienced the “beginning of pangs of distress” during World War I. A number of these should survive still longer to see and go through the war of Armageddon, in harmony with Jesus’ words, at Matthew 24:33-35:
    *** w69 8/15 p. 500 par. 20 Jehovah God, the Hearer of Prayer ***
    all of the temple class are eventually united with Christ Jesus on his heavenly throne, after Armageddon?
    *** w67 4/15 pp. 237-238 par. 1 The Benefits of Mankind’s Millennium ***
    In answer the Holy Bible strongly indicates that a remnant of these heavenly Kingdom heirs will be preserved through the war of Armageddon for earthly service before their earthly demise and their resurrection and glorification in the heavens.
    Note the extra dogmatism here, below, of which we have many examples prior to 1967, but the dogmatism mostly disappears after this:
    *** w67 3/15 p. 185 A Political Union Doomed from Its Start ***
    Here we have added proof, assurance, that a remnant of Christ’s spiritual brothers will survive Armageddon in the flesh and will for a while be in the flesh on earth in the new order after the battle.
  8. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    I accept the lead of good examples. These "leaders" set a very good example in promoting international brotherhood, organizing efficient world wide preaching, designing an educational program that puts Bible examples in front of us constantly so we can learn from good and bad examples. Also, the level of morality that's promoted includes, not just the standard morality of fundamentalists, but also neutrality when it comes to participation in divisive politics and violent wars. I don't remain with my brothers and sisters because of a history of chronology doctrine, and I do my best to point out that this is a trap which could start rearing its ugly head again when the two-part generation starts running out.
    But as JTR said, find me another religion or association that I could join, and if it's better, I'll join it. Just make sure it has the same position on War, Trinity, Neutrality, Preaching, and New Heavens and New Earth.
  9. Haha
    JW Insider got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    I accept the lead of good examples. These "leaders" set a very good example in promoting international brotherhood, organizing efficient world wide preaching, designing an educational program that puts Bible examples in front of us constantly so we can learn from good and bad examples. Also, the level of morality that's promoted includes, not just the standard morality of fundamentalists, but also neutrality when it comes to participation in divisive politics and violent wars. I don't remain with my brothers and sisters because of a history of chronology doctrine, and I do my best to point out that this is a trap which could start rearing its ugly head again when the two-part generation starts running out.
    But as JTR said, find me another religion or association that I could join, and if it's better, I'll join it. Just make sure it has the same position on War, Trinity, Neutrality, Preaching, and New Heavens and New Earth.
  10. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    You take my often expressed sentiments out of context ...
    In context, Jehovah's Witnesses are the "Best Game In Town", because all the others are so much worse.
    It is clear from the Bible that God works THROUGH the Congregations.
    What do you suggest is BETTER than what I have now?
    Please tell me, and I will transfer in an instant (upon verification, of course ...)
    Without that ... your arguments are specious and useless.
    Because that, and that alone .. is where the "rubber meets the road".
    Humans...ALL humans are seriously flawed.
    You expect diamond hardness from sticks of chalk.
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    Similar, but not quite the same thing as picking a date and then saying, "well it wasn't 1975 let's see if it's going to be 1976 or 1977" etc. From the tied-in perspective of counting the number of years in a life-span or generation starting with someone old enough in 1914, then yes, it was part of a series of failed dates. But, interestingly, even though 1975 was just a part of an expectation for 'what the 1970's would bring,' that particular prophetic expectation for 1975 did not get stronger as the 1970's wore on after 1975. Instead it was dropped like a hot potato for a couple of years. No one talked about it in 1976, even though you'd think it would become even more important. Shows how much focus had actually been put on that one year even though technically it was about the decade of the 70's.
    But I was also referring to how Daniel says that the person who waits until the last chance "1335" would be happy, and how the Watchtower still identifies this time ending in 1925 and 1926 as "time of great happiness." Yet it was actually a sad time.
    *** [Daniel's Prophecy] dp chap. 17 p. 303 par. 24 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End ***
    at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!” (Daniel 12:12) The angel gives no clues as to when this period begins or ends. History suggests that it simply follows on the heels of the preceding period. In that case it would run from the autumn of 1922 to the late spring of 1926 (Northern Hemisphere). Did the holy ones come to a state of happiness by the end of that period? Yes, in important spiritual ways.
    *** dp chap. 17 p. 304 par. 26 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End ***
    The issue of March 1, 1925, carried the historic article “Birth of the Nation,” giving God’s people a full understanding of what had happened in the 1914-19 period. After 1925 passed, the holy ones no longer served God with an immediate, explicit deadline in view. Rather, the sanctification of Jehovah’s name was paramount. This vital truth was highlighted, as never before, in the January 1, 1926, . . .
    The period of 1335 is said to have ended in the late spring of 1926, but if we look at the literature, we see that 1925 was still being pushed right up to the last day of 1925. The expression '1925 is not over yet' was used in a publication, very similarly to how Millerites still thought the 1844 year would be correct even if the October date had passed.
    Different from 1975, the back-peddling began when 1925 arrived. But in this case the back-peddling wasn't a drop of the expectation, but a shift to include 1926 in the prediction. So that the pain and embarrassment and sadness was merely extended by giving false hope for another year.
    History proves that the ouster proceedings began promptly on time. Prophecy indicates that 1925-1926 will see the greater part of the ousting completed. All the world's statesmen are dreading the next few years." The Way to Paradise (1925) p.171
    "The year 1926 would therefore begin about October first, 1925. ... We should, therefore, expect shortly after 1925 to see the awakening of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Melchisedec, Job, Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, John the Baptist, and others mentioned in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. The Way to Paradise (1925) p.224
    It's so typical for persons to get their entire lives wrapped up in chronology. Once they get started, it becomes kind of a trap that they never give up on. And then Jesus warned against it, so that we know it's also unchristian and unloving. Russell was attracted to Adventist chronology from a very young age and kept at it until he died in 1916. Harold Camping (non-JW) in the United States was another case of someone who just kept predicting right up until he died, hurting thousands of people by doing so. I had a very sad conversation with one of his "flock" the day before the "end."
  12. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Srecko Sostar in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    Given the very long time and different religious ideologies, but also different interpretations within the same religious community, one could conclude that a "disgusting thing" exists at all times and in all places. Because of this, people who see and want to react, must constantly be ready to "flee to the mountains".
  13. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    I'm not at all suggesting that this is the true meaning of those final verses of Daniel, but they do rather eerily correspond to the experience of almost everyone who feels the frustration of pinning their hopes on chronology.
    Here is a quote from the actual verses again, followed by a paraphrase of what might be written between the lines. Let the reader use discernment, while keeping their tongue in cheek:
    ([ACTUAL] Daniel 12:6-13) . . .“How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. . . . 8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. 11 . . . there will be 1,290 days. 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”
    ([FAKE] Daniel 12:6-13) . . .“How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: [“IT'S GOING TO BE 1,260 DAYS"] . . .  8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. . . . [YOU WILL PROBABLY WONDER WHY NOTHING SEEMED TO HAPPEN AT THE END OF 1,260 DAYS AND RECALCULATE TO ANNOUNCE]. . . .there will be 1,290 days. [AND WHEN THAT DOESN'T WORK OUT YOU WILL PROBABLY THINK YOU CAN RECALCULATE AGAIN AND ANNOUNCE:] 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. [IN FACT, YOU MAY CONTINUE TO GO ON FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND WONDER WHY YOU NEVER COULD FIGURE OUT WHY YOUR OWN EXPECTATION PROVED WRONG FOR 1,260, then 1290, THEN 1,335 DAYS. BUT DON'T WORRY AT ALL. THESE TIME PERIODS ARE GOD'S, NOT YOURS. YOU MAY LIVE OUT YOUR LIFE AND REST IN THE GROUND, BUT REST ASSURED] . . . You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”
    Although this FAKE ending of Daniel probably seems ludicrous to you, it has been the exact experience of thousands of persons who thought they could figure out just what is the meaning of the 1,260 days. Several times in the 1800's, for example, men tried to pinpoint the end. Some started announcing in 1840 that the end was about 3.5 years away, but when it didn't happen in 1843, they recalculated and picked new dates in 1844, and then when it didn't happen in October 1844, they waited right up to nearly the last cold day of 1844. Then again it happened in the 1860's, and then it happened again in the 1870's. (Barbour said it would be 1873, then changed it to 1874, then his group recalculated possible dates in 1874. Then, when 1874 failed, they decided it was 1874 all along but invisible.) Then it happened again around 1914, when the "END" of this system had been predicted, and then when it didn't happen, the end "of the Gentile Times" was moved to 1915. A few months after it didn't happen then, the Finished Mystery book, predicted the end of this system for 1918. When it didn't happen then, it was predicted again for 1925.**
    I think we should stop trying to go where angels should fear to tread, and trust that the end can come at any time. It is our lot to live our lives in expectation that it can happen at any time, yet, for all of us it will happen unexpectedly, in an instant, at the very end of our current lives, if not sooner.
    **Ironically, the expression in Daniel 12:12: "Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days" is interpreted in the Watchtower to mean the year 1925. This was probably the saddest and most embarrassing year in the history of the Watch Tower Society. Does this sound happy?
    *** yb75 p. 146 Part 2—United States of America ***
    So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: “1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed. They had hoped to see some of the ‘ancient worthies’ [men of old like Abraham] resurrected. Instead of its being considered a ‘probability,’ they read into it that it was a ‘certainty,’ and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection.
    Imagine, being told that 1925 was a sure thing, even surer than 1914, with even more assurances than Noah had for believing God when God told him there would be a flood. The Watchtower said it was not just a probability but a certainty. Based on that certainty, some brothers even built houses and extra rooms for their resurrected loved ones. Imagine them thinking of Noah explaining to passersby why he was building an ark, when brothers in 1924 and 1925 were explaining to passersby why they were building additions onto their homes. Then imagine being told that it was their own fault for believing the Watchtower which had indicated that it was a certainty, and not just a probability. In fact, they should have never even considered 1925 to be any stronger of a probability than 1850 or 1935 or 1975 or 2034!
    Those who pin their hopes on any specific signs or dates will probably have those hopes dashed.
  14. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    I'm not at all suggesting that this is the true meaning of those final verses of Daniel, but they do rather eerily correspond to the experience of almost everyone who feels the frustration of pinning their hopes on chronology.
    Here is a quote from the actual verses again, followed by a paraphrase of what might be written between the lines. Let the reader use discernment, while keeping their tongue in cheek:
    ([ACTUAL] Daniel 12:6-13) . . .“How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. . . . 8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. 11 . . . there will be 1,290 days. 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”
    ([FAKE] Daniel 12:6-13) . . .“How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: [“IT'S GOING TO BE 1,260 DAYS"] . . .  8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. . . . [YOU WILL PROBABLY WONDER WHY NOTHING SEEMED TO HAPPEN AT THE END OF 1,260 DAYS AND RECALCULATE TO ANNOUNCE]. . . .there will be 1,290 days. [AND WHEN THAT DOESN'T WORK OUT YOU WILL PROBABLY THINK YOU CAN RECALCULATE AGAIN AND ANNOUNCE:] 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. [IN FACT, YOU MAY CONTINUE TO GO ON FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND WONDER WHY YOU NEVER COULD FIGURE OUT WHY YOUR OWN EXPECTATION PROVED WRONG FOR 1,260, then 1290, THEN 1,335 DAYS. BUT DON'T WORRY AT ALL. THESE TIME PERIODS ARE GOD'S, NOT YOURS. YOU MAY LIVE OUT YOUR LIFE AND REST IN THE GROUND, BUT REST ASSURED] . . . You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”
    Although this FAKE ending of Daniel probably seems ludicrous to you, it has been the exact experience of thousands of persons who thought they could figure out just what is the meaning of the 1,260 days. Several times in the 1800's, for example, men tried to pinpoint the end. Some started announcing in 1840 that the end was about 3.5 years away, but when it didn't happen in 1843, they recalculated and picked new dates in 1844, and then when it didn't happen in October 1844, they waited right up to nearly the last cold day of 1844. Then again it happened in the 1860's, and then it happened again in the 1870's. (Barbour said it would be 1873, then changed it to 1874, then his group recalculated possible dates in 1874. Then, when 1874 failed, they decided it was 1874 all along but invisible.) Then it happened again around 1914, when the "END" of this system had been predicted, and then when it didn't happen, the end "of the Gentile Times" was moved to 1915. A few months after it didn't happen then, the Finished Mystery book, predicted the end of this system for 1918. When it didn't happen then, it was predicted again for 1925.**
    I think we should stop trying to go where angels should fear to tread, and trust that the end can come at any time. It is our lot to live our lives in expectation that it can happen at any time, yet, for all of us it will happen unexpectedly, in an instant, at the very end of our current lives, if not sooner.
    **Ironically, the expression in Daniel 12:12: "Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days" is interpreted in the Watchtower to mean the year 1925. This was probably the saddest and most embarrassing year in the history of the Watch Tower Society. Does this sound happy?
    *** yb75 p. 146 Part 2—United States of America ***
    So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: “1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed. They had hoped to see some of the ‘ancient worthies’ [men of old like Abraham] resurrected. Instead of its being considered a ‘probability,’ they read into it that it was a ‘certainty,’ and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection.
    Imagine, being told that 1925 was a sure thing, even surer than 1914, with even more assurances than Noah had for believing God when God told him there would be a flood. The Watchtower said it was not just a probability but a certainty. Based on that certainty, some brothers even built houses and extra rooms for their resurrected loved ones. Imagine them thinking of Noah explaining to passersby why he was building an ark, when brothers in 1924 and 1925 were explaining to passersby why they were building additions onto their homes. Then imagine being told that it was their own fault for believing the Watchtower which had indicated that it was a certainty, and not just a probability. In fact, they should have never even considered 1925 to be any stronger of a probability than 1850 or 1935 or 1975 or 2034!
    Those who pin their hopes on any specific signs or dates will probably have those hopes dashed.
  15. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    I'm not at all suggesting that this is the true meaning of those final verses of Daniel, but they do rather eerily correspond to the experience of almost everyone who feels the frustration of pinning their hopes on chronology.
    Here is a quote from the actual verses again, followed by a paraphrase of what might be written between the lines. Let the reader use discernment, while keeping their tongue in cheek:
    ([ACTUAL] Daniel 12:6-13) . . .“How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. . . . 8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. 11 . . . there will be 1,290 days. 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”
    ([FAKE] Daniel 12:6-13) . . .“How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: [“IT'S GOING TO BE 1,260 DAYS"] . . .  8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. . . . [YOU WILL PROBABLY WONDER WHY NOTHING SEEMED TO HAPPEN AT THE END OF 1,260 DAYS AND RECALCULATE TO ANNOUNCE]. . . .there will be 1,290 days. [AND WHEN THAT DOESN'T WORK OUT YOU WILL PROBABLY THINK YOU CAN RECALCULATE AGAIN AND ANNOUNCE:] 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. [IN FACT, YOU MAY CONTINUE TO GO ON FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND WONDER WHY YOU NEVER COULD FIGURE OUT WHY YOUR OWN EXPECTATION PROVED WRONG FOR 1,260, then 1290, THEN 1,335 DAYS. BUT DON'T WORRY AT ALL. THESE TIME PERIODS ARE GOD'S, NOT YOURS. YOU MAY LIVE OUT YOUR LIFE AND REST IN THE GROUND, BUT REST ASSURED] . . . You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”
    Although this FAKE ending of Daniel probably seems ludicrous to you, it has been the exact experience of thousands of persons who thought they could figure out just what is the meaning of the 1,260 days. Several times in the 1800's, for example, men tried to pinpoint the end. Some started announcing in 1840 that the end was about 3.5 years away, but when it didn't happen in 1843, they recalculated and picked new dates in 1844, and then when it didn't happen in October 1844, they waited right up to nearly the last cold day of 1844. Then again it happened in the 1860's, and then it happened again in the 1870's. (Barbour said it would be 1873, then changed it to 1874, then his group recalculated possible dates in 1874. Then, when 1874 failed, they decided it was 1874 all along but invisible.) Then it happened again around 1914, when the "END" of this system had been predicted, and then when it didn't happen, the end "of the Gentile Times" was moved to 1915. A few months after it didn't happen then, the Finished Mystery book, predicted the end of this system for 1918. When it didn't happen then, it was predicted again for 1925.**
    I think we should stop trying to go where angels should fear to tread, and trust that the end can come at any time. It is our lot to live our lives in expectation that it can happen at any time, yet, for all of us it will happen unexpectedly, in an instant, at the very end of our current lives, if not sooner.
    **Ironically, the expression in Daniel 12:12: "Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days" is interpreted in the Watchtower to mean the year 1925. This was probably the saddest and most embarrassing year in the history of the Watch Tower Society. Does this sound happy?
    *** yb75 p. 146 Part 2—United States of America ***
    So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: “1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed. They had hoped to see some of the ‘ancient worthies’ [men of old like Abraham] resurrected. Instead of its being considered a ‘probability,’ they read into it that it was a ‘certainty,’ and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection.
    Imagine, being told that 1925 was a sure thing, even surer than 1914, with even more assurances than Noah had for believing God when God told him there would be a flood. The Watchtower said it was not just a probability but a certainty. Based on that certainty, some brothers even built houses and extra rooms for their resurrected loved ones. Imagine them thinking of Noah explaining to passersby why he was building an ark, when brothers in 1924 and 1925 were explaining to passersby why they were building additions onto their homes. Then imagine being told that it was their own fault for believing the Watchtower which had indicated that it was a certainty, and not just a probability. In fact, they should have never even considered 1925 to be any stronger of a probability than 1850 or 1935 or 1975 or 2034!
    Those who pin their hopes on any specific signs or dates will probably have those hopes dashed.
  16. Like
    JW Insider got a reaction from Kosonen in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    Yes. I know of only a few other JWs who admit to believing this. Not that it should mean that much to us, but hundreds of thousands of Bible readers, and most Bible scholars and commentators have believed exactly this way through the centuries.
    This is true. Even those persons and translators who didn't have access to the first-century definition of "royal parade-like visitation" (discovered in the early 1900's from first-century papyri) had already understood the truth of the matter even from the original "basic" definition of parousia, which is related to being present.
    The parousia is accompanied by a spectacular judgment event, sometimes referred to in Jewish literature of that time period as a "synteleia" which can refer to a destructive "end of all things together." The "end of all things" judgment event is part of the parousia according to the Bible usage (Matthew 24:3). The parousia of a royal personage could include a judgment event even among the Roman emperors and their officials when they visited a province. But these other royal visitations were parade-like and therefore called parousia's, but not synteleia's. I think it's only a synteleia if it includes a destructive judgment event.
    It's this judgment, I think, that is referred to with the symbolism of stars falling and in other places, mountains falling, the sun and moon not giving light, etc. The separation of sheep from goats, the resurrection of righteous and unrighteous, the gathering of the anointed, etc. All these things happen at this time period. It does not matter how long it takes, or exactly what things happen just before or after the other things, at this point. It's too late to change divine judgment at this point, so it doesn't matter if the time periods are literal or not after judgment begins.
    Armageddon is probably NOT a place in Israel, so speculation based on this idea probably won't get us very far. Surely you do not actually think that 12,000 persons of the 144,000 are coming from the smallest tribe of Israel, and another 12,000 come from the largest tribe of Israel, do you? (Revelation 7:5-8) Is this literal when it says "out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000"?
    Since there is no literal Har-Mageddon, afaik, it seems unlikely.
    Revelation does not describe a literal Jerusalem, and as I said before, I don't think there is a literal Har-Mageddon, so I think these are "virtual" locations. Much like the use of Jerusalem made in Hebrews and Galatians:
    (Hebrews 12:22, 23) . . .But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,. . .
    (Galatians 4:26) 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
    Because, if Babylon represents the primary tangible "enemy" that Christians must conquer, then when Christians have survived, and have actually conquered, It deserves a recap/summary as part of the final bowl.
    (John 16:33) . . .. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.
    (1 John 5:4, 5) . . .And this is the conquest that has conquered the world, our faith. 5 Who can conquer the world? Is it not the one who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?
  17. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    Yes. I know of only a few other JWs who admit to believing this. Not that it should mean that much to us, but hundreds of thousands of Bible readers, and most Bible scholars and commentators have believed exactly this way through the centuries.
    This is true. Even those persons and translators who didn't have access to the first-century definition of "royal parade-like visitation" (discovered in the early 1900's from first-century papyri) had already understood the truth of the matter even from the original "basic" definition of parousia, which is related to being present.
    The parousia is accompanied by a spectacular judgment event, sometimes referred to in Jewish literature of that time period as a "synteleia" which can refer to a destructive "end of all things together." The "end of all things" judgment event is part of the parousia according to the Bible usage (Matthew 24:3). The parousia of a royal personage could include a judgment event even among the Roman emperors and their officials when they visited a province. But these other royal visitations were parade-like and therefore called parousia's, but not synteleia's. I think it's only a synteleia if it includes a destructive judgment event.
    It's this judgment, I think, that is referred to with the symbolism of stars falling and in other places, mountains falling, the sun and moon not giving light, etc. The separation of sheep from goats, the resurrection of righteous and unrighteous, the gathering of the anointed, etc. All these things happen at this time period. It does not matter how long it takes, or exactly what things happen just before or after the other things, at this point. It's too late to change divine judgment at this point, so it doesn't matter if the time periods are literal or not after judgment begins.
    Armageddon is probably NOT a place in Israel, so speculation based on this idea probably won't get us very far. Surely you do not actually think that 12,000 persons of the 144,000 are coming from the smallest tribe of Israel, and another 12,000 come from the largest tribe of Israel, do you? (Revelation 7:5-8) Is this literal when it says "out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000"?
    Since there is no literal Har-Mageddon, afaik, it seems unlikely.
    Revelation does not describe a literal Jerusalem, and as I said before, I don't think there is a literal Har-Mageddon, so I think these are "virtual" locations. Much like the use of Jerusalem made in Hebrews and Galatians:
    (Hebrews 12:22, 23) . . .But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,. . .
    (Galatians 4:26) 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
    Because, if Babylon represents the primary tangible "enemy" that Christians must conquer, then when Christians have survived, and have actually conquered, It deserves a recap/summary as part of the final bowl.
    (John 16:33) . . .. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.
    (1 John 5:4, 5) . . .And this is the conquest that has conquered the world, our faith. 5 Who can conquer the world? Is it not the one who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?
  18. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    Facts are nice, but they are overrated. They are downright dangerous things in the hands of some, who handle them as deftly as a surgeon with a jackhammer.
    Facts mean little in themselves. It’s how you put them together that counts. That’s why the Bible lays relatively little emphasis on the head and instead lays it on the heart.
    The heart determines what it wants and then entrusts the head to devise a convincing rationale for it, giving the appearance that it is the head running the show. But it is the heart all along.
  19. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    I think you have just inadvertently admitted why Jesus was so dead-set against looking for signs indicating how close we were to the END. When people begin trying to use various ideas from world events or astrology or scriptural interpretations to figure out when the END should come, they begin to think it could easily take several years. This creates a tendency for imperfect humans to take advantage of the remaining time left.
    It's the reason why Jesus gave the parable of the unfaithful and indiscreet slaves in Matthew 24 and Luke 12:
    (Matthew 24:48-51) . . .But if ever that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and he starts to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his place with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.
    (Luke 12:44-48) . . .. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
    Surely, this is why Jesus made a point to say that the END could come at any time, as a surprise, during a time you think NOT to be it. How much warning did the city of Sodom get in the days of Lot?
    (Luke 17:28-30) . . .Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.
    Also, note that the expression "that day when the Son of man is revealed" is parallel to the use of the word "parousia" in Matthew. So we know that the Parousia [revelation] must happen at a time when no one can predict the times and seasons, which are in the Father's jurisdiction. (Acts 1:6-8). Jesus emphasized that we cannot use current events like wars, earthquakes, pestilence as a way to figure out the parousia. He says we would see such things, and in that limited sense they were a kind of sign that the world would see both normal things and abnormal things right up until the end. (Pestilence in one place, but men saying everything is peaceful and secure in another place.) But they could NOT give us any knowledge about the timing of the parousia.
    (Luke 17:23, 24) . . .And people will say to you, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as lightning flashes from one part of heaven to another part of heaven, so the Son of man will be in his day.
    [Note again that "the Son of man ... in his day" is the parallel to "parousia" in Matthew.]
    No one should be able to say, oh look at this war, "See here!" it is the greatest war ever seen, or "Look at this great earthquake, or famine, or pestilence, see there!" These things are going to happen, just like people going on with their lives: getting married, and eating and drinking and buying and selling is going to happen, too. But these are not "signs of the end." It's easy to get misled into believing such things, which is why Jesus had to warn us that this is not the Christian way to look at things.
    (Matthew 24:3-8) . . .“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [parousia] and of the conclusion [destructive END] of the system of things?” 4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning [not the end] of pangs of distress.
    We should expect that people will be saying "See Here!" and "See There!" about this or that pestilence or war or earthquake, etc. But this is no indication of the end. The end cannot be calculated, it could just as easily happen while people were acting as they generally have since the creation's beginning until now: eating, drinking, getting married:
    (Matthew 24:36-44) 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.
    Note again, by the way, that the "day your Lord is coming" is paralleled with the "parousia of the Son of man." So we can't know when the parousia starts. The Parousia is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it. It's unchristian to try, and it's unchristian to use the mistake that the early disciples made as an excuse to make the same mistake today.
    (Acts 1:7) 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.
  20. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    The GB teaches that all of Matthew 24 are signs that were especially prevalent around 1914. This is not misusing the sufferings of others to hype up their own agenda. It's an interpretation. And yes, it's an interpretation that is very easy to fall into. I'm sure that's why Jesus warned us about exactly that sort of thing. There is a danger in it, but it's not the danger of misusing others' suffering.
    I think the most likely dangers are the following:
    The danger of hubris and presumptuousness and pride in thinking that we can solve some chronology issues related to the parousia when these are things that not even the angels should try to do. It's not in our jurisdiction. It's in Jehovah's jurisdiction. But we think that we are special and it gives us bragging rights to think of ourselves as a kind of prophet. The danger of believing that we are fated to a certain set of developments in our lifetime and our therefore "immune" to true empathy and sympathy for the sighing and groaning of people without hope in this system. The danger of starting to think we know a date that is just far enough off so that it gives us more time to prepare. The danger of starting to think we know a date that is so close that we begin "serving with a date in mind." In other words, our motivation for our service to Jehovah becomes a works-based sprint to see how much we can do, rather than a focus on love as a response to His undeserved kindness. But the GB are not now hurting anyone with an identification of the parousia happening in 1914. What we define as a parousia is something else altogether from what the Bible defined it as, so we are really just saying that Christ is King and has been present since before any of us were born. Whether that was 33 or 1874 or 1914 makes no difference now. We're in the same situation, regardless. It was only a problem while we were watching for the number of years since 1914 that might be in a generation or a lifespan while awaiting the REAL manifestation of his presence on judgment day. But we no longer do that.
    I don't think it's a conscious decision, but the new definition of generation is really just a throw-away definition that effectively tosses out the idea of a generation or lifespan from 1914. So most of that problem is gone. 1914 itself is actually just kept as an artifact of pride. It's a way of protecting a tradition that 'saves face' since we already held onto it for so long and since it was once "predicted" by people related to us in the faith.  I mean that it was "predicted" in the sense that it was associated with a phrase: "end of the Gentile Times." Everything else about that prediction failed, and in fact even the phrase "end of the Gentile Times" failed. The phrase back then had nothing to do with what we claim it means now. Still, 1914 is so long ago that it has no effect on our current conduct. We are really right back to the Biblically-supported situation where we need to take advantage of the UNKNOWN AMOUNT of remaining time to keep maturing and showing love and faith and responding to undeserved kindness with actual "good works."
    The context sounds better than just that one sentence. But yes, I think he fell into one of the common dangers of confirmation bias when you promote a specific eschatology. See danger #2 above, perhaps even a little of danger #1.
  21. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    I think you have just inadvertently admitted why Jesus was so dead-set against looking for signs indicating how close we were to the END. When people begin trying to use various ideas from world events or astrology or scriptural interpretations to figure out when the END should come, they begin to think it could easily take several years. This creates a tendency for imperfect humans to take advantage of the remaining time left.
    It's the reason why Jesus gave the parable of the unfaithful and indiscreet slaves in Matthew 24 and Luke 12:
    (Matthew 24:48-51) . . .But if ever that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and he starts to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his place with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.
    (Luke 12:44-48) . . .. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
    Surely, this is why Jesus made a point to say that the END could come at any time, as a surprise, during a time you think NOT to be it. How much warning did the city of Sodom get in the days of Lot?
    (Luke 17:28-30) . . .Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.
    Also, note that the expression "that day when the Son of man is revealed" is parallel to the use of the word "parousia" in Matthew. So we know that the Parousia [revelation] must happen at a time when no one can predict the times and seasons, which are in the Father's jurisdiction. (Acts 1:6-8). Jesus emphasized that we cannot use current events like wars, earthquakes, pestilence as a way to figure out the parousia. He says we would see such things, and in that limited sense they were a kind of sign that the world would see both normal things and abnormal things right up until the end. (Pestilence in one place, but men saying everything is peaceful and secure in another place.) But they could NOT give us any knowledge about the timing of the parousia.
    (Luke 17:23, 24) . . .And people will say to you, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as lightning flashes from one part of heaven to another part of heaven, so the Son of man will be in his day.
    [Note again that "the Son of man ... in his day" is the parallel to "parousia" in Matthew.]
    No one should be able to say, oh look at this war, "See here!" it is the greatest war ever seen, or "Look at this great earthquake, or famine, or pestilence, see there!" These things are going to happen, just like people going on with their lives: getting married, and eating and drinking and buying and selling is going to happen, too. But these are not "signs of the end." It's easy to get misled into believing such things, which is why Jesus had to warn us that this is not the Christian way to look at things.
    (Matthew 24:3-8) . . .“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [parousia] and of the conclusion [destructive END] of the system of things?” 4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning [not the end] of pangs of distress.
    We should expect that people will be saying "See Here!" and "See There!" about this or that pestilence or war or earthquake, etc. But this is no indication of the end. The end cannot be calculated, it could just as easily happen while people were acting as they generally have since the creation's beginning until now: eating, drinking, getting married:
    (Matthew 24:36-44) 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.
    Note again, by the way, that the "day your Lord is coming" is paralleled with the "parousia of the Son of man." So we can't know when the parousia starts. The Parousia is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it. It's unchristian to try, and it's unchristian to use the mistake that the early disciples made as an excuse to make the same mistake today.
    (Acts 1:7) 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.
  22. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    We had our meeting online today - the entire congregation.  Most witnesses are still doing telephone witnessing.
    Being 67 years of age, I already quaranteened myself before the emergency conditions were called out in my country. 
    This does not mean that we stop preaching or attending meetings! Or have contact with our spiritual family! 
  23. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in Coronavirus: Jehovah’s Witnesses Cancel Historical Evangelism In UK   
    I think you have just inadvertently admitted why Jesus was so dead-set against looking for signs indicating how close we were to the END. When people begin trying to use various ideas from world events or astrology or scriptural interpretations to figure out when the END should come, they begin to think it could easily take several years. This creates a tendency for imperfect humans to take advantage of the remaining time left.
    It's the reason why Jesus gave the parable of the unfaithful and indiscreet slaves in Matthew 24 and Luke 12:
    (Matthew 24:48-51) . . .But if ever that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and he starts to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his place with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.
    (Luke 12:44-48) . . .. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
    Surely, this is why Jesus made a point to say that the END could come at any time, as a surprise, during a time you think NOT to be it. How much warning did the city of Sodom get in the days of Lot?
    (Luke 17:28-30) . . .Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.
    Also, note that the expression "that day when the Son of man is revealed" is parallel to the use of the word "parousia" in Matthew. So we know that the Parousia [revelation] must happen at a time when no one can predict the times and seasons, which are in the Father's jurisdiction. (Acts 1:6-8). Jesus emphasized that we cannot use current events like wars, earthquakes, pestilence as a way to figure out the parousia. He says we would see such things, and in that limited sense they were a kind of sign that the world would see both normal things and abnormal things right up until the end. (Pestilence in one place, but men saying everything is peaceful and secure in another place.) But they could NOT give us any knowledge about the timing of the parousia.
    (Luke 17:23, 24) . . .And people will say to you, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as lightning flashes from one part of heaven to another part of heaven, so the Son of man will be in his day.
    [Note again that "the Son of man ... in his day" is the parallel to "parousia" in Matthew.]
    No one should be able to say, oh look at this war, "See here!" it is the greatest war ever seen, or "Look at this great earthquake, or famine, or pestilence, see there!" These things are going to happen, just like people going on with their lives: getting married, and eating and drinking and buying and selling is going to happen, too. But these are not "signs of the end." It's easy to get misled into believing such things, which is why Jesus had to warn us that this is not the Christian way to look at things.
    (Matthew 24:3-8) . . .“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [parousia] and of the conclusion [destructive END] of the system of things?” 4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning [not the end] of pangs of distress.
    We should expect that people will be saying "See Here!" and "See There!" about this or that pestilence or war or earthquake, etc. But this is no indication of the end. The end cannot be calculated, it could just as easily happen while people were acting as they generally have since the creation's beginning until now: eating, drinking, getting married:
    (Matthew 24:36-44) 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.
    Note again, by the way, that the "day your Lord is coming" is paralleled with the "parousia of the Son of man." So we can't know when the parousia starts. The Parousia is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it. It's unchristian to try, and it's unchristian to use the mistake that the early disciples made as an excuse to make the same mistake today.
    (Acts 1:7) 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.
  24. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to TrueTomHarley in The heavenly resurrection begins after the fall of Babylon the Great   
    Inadequate attention has been paid, and is being paid, to the signs of the prophet Simon. In his writings, he declares how people will live in these latter days that include plagues:
    ”Hiding in my room, sacred in my room, I touch no one and no one touches me.” - Paul Simon
    He continues, indicating where people may find relief:
    ”I have my books. And my poetry to protect me.”
    Let the reader use discernment. The ‘books’ he is referring to are the 66 books of the Holy Bible. The ‘poetry’ consists of the poignant remarks he posts right here on the worldnewsmedia forum.
  25. Haha
    JW Insider reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in The heavenly resurrection begins after the fall of Babylon the Great   
    Peter was a rock ... but Simon was a rock AND an island.

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