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Can anyone explain this to me?: The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the 1,000 years were ENDED.

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Can anyone explain this to me?: Rev. 20:5 -- (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)…”?

 

I thought that our loved ones will be resurrected DURING the 1,000 years…

Does it maybe mean that they do not come to “everlasting life” until the 1,000 years are ended?

 

Full Scripture for Reference: (Revelation 20:4, 5) And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

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Hello, DeeDee, think about what this verse is speaking about. It is not as hard as one think. Who partake of the 'first' resurrection? Those of the heavenly hope, and when they are given life, they are immortal, death has no hold there is no last test for them, correct? But those brought back to life during the reign of Christ, what happens when Satan is let loosed upon the earth? We all must past this final test, because if any fail they will end up where? So after this test death will be no more, all who pass has nothing but life in front of them, no testing of where their sovereignty lies, they have proved it. So the writer could put this what he saw in the future in those very words. Everyone else, the dead, would not come to life without death, until the 1000 yrs had ended.

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Thank you, John! That's what I thought it MUST mean... I was just concerned that if I use this scripture in teaching my Bible Student, that they would only see it for what it actually says. Yes, the REAL life won't be experienced until after we prove our loyalty and get through that final test! Thanks, again!

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*** re chap. 40 p. 290 Crushing the Serpent’s Head ***
The Rest of the Dead
14 Whom, though, will these kings judge if, as the apostle John here inserts, “(the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)”? (Revelation 20:5a) Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context. This expression can have varying meanings in varying circumstances. For example, Paul said of his anointed fellow Christians: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.” (Ephesians 2:1) Yes, spirit-anointed Christians were “made alive,” even in the first century, being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.—Romans 3:23, 24.
15 Similarly, pre-Christian witnesses of Jehovah were declared righteous as to friendship with God; and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spoken of as “living” even though they were physically dead. (Matthew 22:31, 32; James 2:21, 23) However, they and all others who are resurrected, as well as the great crowd of faithful other sheep who survive Armageddon and any children that may be born to these in the new world, must yet be raised to human perfection. This will be accomplished by Christ and his associate kings and priests during the thousand-year Judgment Day, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “come to life” in the sense that they will be perfect humans. As we shall see, they must then pass a final test, but they will face that test as perfected humans. When they pass the test, God will declare them worthy of living forever, righteous in the fullest sense. They will experience the complete fulfillment of the promise: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29) What a delightful future is in store for obedient mankind!

Get the Watchtower Library installed on your computer, so you can do your own research. You can use the online library as well.

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" Can anyone explain this to me?: The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the 1,000 years were ENDED."

How could it be any simpler than what is stated?

On 12/21/2017 at 3:57 PM, DeeDee said:

And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Idea No. 1.) 

"And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 ....  This is the first resurrection."

Idea No. 2  

(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) ...

There.... that make more sense?

What could be simpler?

 

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wait a minute. So after this 1000 years, who's left? Just jw's right? its only those who have associated with the organization, well according to the publications. Right? 

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42 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Who are they?

no, I was asking if the only ones left are jw's. Well actually not asking, but rather confirming what jws believe. 

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9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

What could be simpler?

The way we understand it is a way that makes "simple" sense when we have already accepted the entire context of all that we aleady teach about the end-times. By end-times we can start from the the Russell-related messenger of the late 1800's preparing the way, and up to 1914 when Jesus is crowned king, along with a 1914 battle where Satan and his demons are released for a short time to wreak havoc on the earth and persecute God's people, along with a "first resurrection" that we say might have begun around 1918 or at least probably somewhere between 1914 and 1935.

So it is due in large part to accepting these beliefs about the "recent" past, that we believe the next things that will happen must include the following, in this order:

  1. Great Tribulation
  2. Gog of Magog surround God's people to attack (before the 1,000 year reign)
  3. Armageddon
    • Destruction of Gog of Magog (before the thousand year reign)
    • Binding of Satan and his demons
  4. The 1,000 Year Reign
  5. Release of Satan (at the end of the 1000 years)
  6. Gog and Magog surround God's people to attack (at the end of the 1,000 years)
  7. Destruction of Gog and Magog (at the end of the 1,000 years)
  8. Satan and demons thrown into lake of fire

This is spelled out in text and in "charts"  here:

  • *** w15 5/15 p. 29 Questions From Readers ***
    • Hello guest!

So from the viewpoint of someone who has already accepted a different solution to the order of these events, our "simple" solution, might seem rather confusing.

I'm not suggesting that we have it completely wrong, or that we should adopt a completely different solution. But I know that many persons might be confused as to why we (or the Bible) speak of Gog/Magog poised to attack God's people twice, and even more confusingly, why Gog/Magog is destroyed twice.  One of the alternate solutions even seems to remove the need to add parentheses to a portion of the verse in Revelation 20:5, as if it's an interruption to the order of events. Those parentheses are not in any of the original manuscripts of the Bible, so someone might wonder if it can make sense without seeing them as an interruption.

I don't think most of these other solutions are any more convincing than our own. Ours has a couple flaws, but so do some of the other solutions in my opinion. I'd be interested in Shiwiii's opinion on this whole end-times scenario to see if it can be made to fit any better.

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When I was younger, I would struggle with all these sorts of things .... and argue them.

Having experienced  "New Light" so many times I feel like an epileptic subjected to a  flashing strobe light ....

The famous phrase from "Gone With The Wind" movie comes to mind ...

"Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn !"

If I (or anybody) REALLY ever knows, it will be in the New System.

All else is speculation by people who PRETEND to know.

ESPECIALLY in "Revelation" which was to the Apostle John.

I suspect a LOT got lost in various "translations".

What could be simpler?

No muss, no fuss, no conflict.

 

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:
  • Great Tribulation
  • Gog of Magog surround God's people to attack (before the 1,000 year reign)
  • Armageddon
    • Destruction of Gog of Magog (before the thousand year reign)
    • Binding of Satan and his demons
  • The 1,000 Year Reign
  • Release of Satan (at the end of the 1000 years)
  • Gog and Magog surround God's people to attack (at the end of the 1,000 years)
  • Destruction of Gog and Magog (at the end of the 1,000 years)
  • Satan and demons thrown into lake of fire

Isn't it believed by jw's that between your #3 sub points and your #4 is when God will sweep clean and destroy all who are not jw's at that time? Setting aside those who have died previously, we're only dealing with those alive during this period. 

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Isn't it believed by jw's that between your #3 sub points and your #4 is when God will sweep clean and destroy all who are not jw's at that time?

Yes. Some Witnesses would take that literally. But in the last couple of decades, there has been a toning down of the talk about who will be destroyed and who will survive. JWs expect to survive as a people, but there has been a lot more talk about Jehovah's justice and how we can't predict just how many others will survive, based upon their circumstances, age, mental capacity, opportunities to know about true Christianity, or even to know about Christianity in general. Witnesses rarely say they will be the only ones to survive Armageddon. We are not the judges. We don't know if thousands of other persons will survive, or millions, or even billions. Jonah, we recall, thought he was calling down destruction on the capital of a world empire, in effect, therefore, the entire world -- and for a while he was disappointed when Jehovah saved all the people he expected would die. 

From another perspective, #3 in that list was Armageddon, which we believe will be an obvious display of Jehovah's purposeful and selective judgments through his chosen King and Commander, Christ Jesus. This will not simply be a completely chaotic time of destruction. A scenario similar to the one Witnesses envision is that Gog/Magog will attack, and Jehovah will selectively protect the persons he wishes to protect.

Many persons will no doubt witness such spectacles of Jehovah's selective judgments, and realize they are not random, but purposeful. This would have to be interpreted as a true and spectacular judgment message from heaven. That means that, in effect, EVERYBODY who witnesses Jehovah's judgments will now be one of Jehovah's witnesses at this point, even prior to the spectacular and miraculous resurrection of persons brought back from just recently and long ago, with their memories intact. The newly resurrected, too, therefore, become witnesses of Jehovah's judgments, power, purpose. 

You will have to ask other Witnesses if they anticipate God's judgments working out differently. For me, this is a personal opinion but it can still fit the range of variations possible from current Witness teachings. It might have been difficult to allow for such variation even 25 years ago.

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

EVERYBODY who witnesses Jehovah's judgments will now be one of Jehovah's witnesses at this point

Well put. This connects with a response I would make to this accusation: "You say only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved", namely, a question: How do you define a Jehovah's Witness?

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The previous answers have much merit. It can also be summed up like this:

(Genesis 18:25-28) . . .It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?” 26 Then Jehovah said: “If I find in Sodʹom 50 righteous men in the city, I will pardon the whole place for their sake.” 27 But Abraham again responded: “Please, here I have presumed to speak to Jehovah, whereas I am dust and ashes. 28 Suppose the 50 righteous should lack five. Because of the five will you destroy the whole city?” To this he said: “I will not destroy it if I find there 45.”

We can safely leave the details and final decisions  about certain groups to Jehovah.  We must not presume to speak for him above what he has already said.  He will always do what is right. Every detail cannot be written down (John 21:25), but generally all the guidelines are clear (Ps 11:4-7; Ps 15:1-7).

(Isaiah 55:9) . . .For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Deuteronomy 32:4)  4 The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he.

(Malachi 3:6) “For I am Jehovah; I do not change. And you are sons of Jacob; you have not yet come to your finish.
 

 


 


 

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22 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

Oh! I think we can expand on this to mean a more forceful literal decision that is placed upon humanity, of their choosing.

I'm sure you are correct. And speaking of the time near Armageddon as a literal decision point might be very appropriate, too. But none of us knows exactly when that final decision point would be for those who do not yet know better. Jesus is given authority to judge the heart, and we might wonder why Jesus said what he did about those in Sodom. (See the comment about Abraham and Sodom from @Melinda Mills.) He said that if those persons in Sodom had seen the miraculous signs that Jesus was then giving persons the opportunity to see, that those men in Sodom would have repented. Jesus was here claiming that he could judge the heart condition of the men of Sodom. Why?

Around Armageddon, which could be a literal time for that final "decision point" we envision that there will be clear signs from heaven. Will any persons at this time, who see these signs from heaven, have a heart condition like those persons in Sodom, who would have repented? Does this have any meaning to the one who judges the hearts? The same could go for the billions of unrighteous who are expected to be resurrected. Our teaching about them says that many of these will be kept around and remain alive for 1,000 more years and then finally destroyed at the end of that 1,000 years. But won't many of these billions of unrighteous persons see the obvious signs from heaven that are transforming the earth during this time?

If a person sees this and still doesn't want it, their heart condition is clear. Many persons, we expect, will be so steeped in their wicked lifestyle at Armageddon that they will prove their inability to repent and deserve a judgment of eternal death. They receive this judgment because Jehovah and Jesus, righteous judges who can read the heart, will make that judgment -- knowing in advance how they would react even if offered an opportunity for 1,000 years of signs from heaven. But some of the billions who are resurrected will be allowed to stick around for up to 1,000 years, even though it is therefore clear that they too could have been judged again almost immediately upon resurrection, long before they get destroyed at the end of the 1,000 years. If our view of the 1,000 years is right, there is some other reason that they are treated differently or even judged by a somewhat different set of criteria. This is not something for us to worry about now. Just as it is not something for us to try to judge in place of Jehovah.

Historically, C.T.Russell envisioned all the millions or even billions of Christians going to heaven, and only 144,000 of them chosen to be Christ's bride. But he also expected about 20 billion "worldly" non-Christians to stay on earth through resurrection or survival where, over the years, they would be transformed into perfect subjects of God's kingdom. Russell, as you know, sometimes said things that made people believe he supported nearly a "universal salvation."

Rutherford, too, as part of the argument for "Millions" of "worldly" people then living being able to survive Armageddon into God's new world, also saw post-Armageddon as a time of transforming the minds of billions of persons who would see these signs from heaven and repent. Rutherford, in the "Millions" campaign, argued that a person could hardly be expected to want to go back to their "worldly" wicked ways once he has seen this transformation to paradise in the Millennium.

Even with the scriptures you quoted, we don't know the final time when you could say of these persons, "but that is what some of you were." It's also clear that many have already had opportunity to transform their lives based on knowledge of God and Christ and have already had opportunity to present themselves as either "sheep" or "goats."

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But some of the billions who are resurrected will be allowed to stick around for up to 1,000 years, even though it is therefore clear that they too could have been judged again almost immediately upon resurrection, long before they get destroyed at the end of the 1,000 years. If our view of the 1,000 years is right, there is some other reason that they are treated differently or even judged by a somewhat different set of criteria. This is not something for us to worry about now. Just as it is not something for us to try to judge in place of Jehovah.

My understanding from reading the Bible and Bible publications provided is that those who do not cooperate with the Kingdom government after Armageddon (resurrected ones) will be cut off. If they reach the end of the 1000-year reign it is believed that they would have been healed by the King-Priest  and his 144000 associate king-priests and have become perfect.  They would be destroyed only if they fail the final test. (Rev 20)  

Righteous ones (survivors and those who get a resurrection to life) will most likely continue to be righteous in an environment free of Satan's influence if they did so in the former life with him around.  But they will have to be tested after attaining to perfection. 

See scriptures below, and comment on how they relate to your statement above.

"(Isaiah 26:10) Even if the wicked is shown favor, He will not learn righteousness. Even in the land of uprightness he will act wickedly, And he will not see the majesty of Jehovah."                     

(Resurrected unrighteous ones would be given the opportunity in the new system to see the majesty of Jehovah - those not seeing will have proved to be wicked and will disappear from the earth)

"(Isaiah 65:20) “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days, Nor an old man who fails to live out his days. For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy, And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age. "                            

(No one will be disadvantaged by hunger, sickness, deformity, disease, short life span, etc.  Will live healthy lives and afforded ample time (lifespan) and opportunity to learn about Jehovah and will be expected to transform their lives according to Jehovah's will (see the eminence of Jehovah's way of doing things).  Those  who continue to love sin, will be cursed/cut off.

This sabbath period of 1000 years will be for learning about Jehovah (scrolls opened) not the practising of sin.  All the scriptures mentioned by AllenSmith pertain to things people choose to do.   So I don't believe there will be any big group of people sailing along and enjoying the Paradise and not acting in harmony with the expectation for them, after they are taught. I believe they will be taken out of the earth, once they get ample knowledge of Jehovah's requirements.   

Choosing was always connected with  getting God's approval.  As we learned in our meeting this week, Jehovah draws us but he doesn't force us.  Deut 30:19,20.  All will have to show whether they are on Jehovah's side by their choices.

Why all who survive to the end of the thousand years will have to be tested:  What the final test will do for those who have been obedient up to the end of the the 1000 years will be to test their fitness for Jehovah granting them eternal life after Jesus would have healed and uplifted them.   Adam had that test while perfect and he failed it; all perfected people then would also have that test.  Satan would be used to test their motive for serving Jehovah.  (On every occasion where we invite people to enjoy themselves, there are always those who come along for the food and the entertainment, not really out of appreciation for the host.  Even in Jesus' time on the earth when large crowds were following him and he fed them, his disciples wanted to understand what he was saying but lots of people were satisfied with the literal bread, and also the cures,  and he detected it, and he told them so. They were not interested in spiritual things. ) Also Jehovah would want to ensure that peace and security would be permanent in the earth. He will eliminate those whose heart is not complete toward Him and who might possibly cause danger in the future. Satan would see to it that any rebellious tendency dormant in their hearts is shown up. 

 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

He said that if those persons in Sodom had seen the miraculous signs that Jesus was then giving persons the opportunity to see, that those men in Sodom would have repented. Jesus was here claiming that he could judge the heart condition of the men of Sodom. Why?

Even this statement bears out the fact that people will be expected to act now and in the future paradise.

 

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1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

I am unaware I was giving any timeline for the discussion.

True, I only meant that if you agree we are are now living in a time near Armageddon that your statements would apply at a time near Armageddon. Not intending to read into it anything more specific, but wondering just how close to Armageddon your words might still apply (for some).

1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

C.T. Russell’s first inclination was only the 144, 000 would inherit the heavenly kingdom of God.

The "great crowd which no man was able to number" were to become "spirit creatures" in heaven. The 144,000 were "more than conquerors" but the "great crowd" (great multitude) were also conquerors, yet unworthy to become "more than conquerors." Page 297 of "What Pastor Russell said" includes the question and his answer:

  • Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the spirit plane? Answer -- Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling. They do not make their calling and election sure, but not being worthy of second death, they therefore receive life on the spirit plane."

I don't know how we would know Russell's "first inclination" even if you are right. One of the very first issues of the Watch Tower that Russell published included the following, in November 1880, p.4 (R156):

  • As the exemption from the seven last plagues in Goshen preceded the final deliverance from Egypt, so it seems that the "sea of glass" condition which is "mingled with fire" precedes the final entering of the temple in heaven of this "great multitude" of victors.

And one of the last issues of the Watch Tower that he published, February 1916, page 75-76 states virtually the same thing.

  • Here, then, we see the difference between two classes in the Church, all of whom are spirit-begotten, all of whom are called with the same High Calling . . . But although they cannot be recognized as the Bride class, we praise God for His mercy in indicating that they all belong to the company of virgins, the Bride's companions who follow after her. . . . The water of life which Jesus will give the second class will be everlasting life on the spirit plane like unto the angels. . . .

Rutherford repeated this same position about the "great crowd" (great multitude; great company) going to heaven up until at least 1932.

 

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51 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

My understanding from reading the Bible and Bible publications provided is that those who do not cooperate with the Kingdom government after Armageddon (resurrected ones) will be cut off. If they reach the end of the 1000-year reign

Yes. This is right. This is why I said "some" would remain until the end of the thousand years before being destroyed.

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1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

However, you must be referring to the account of Noah and the flood, where people did have time to reform and repent before judgement would come upon them.

No. I was referring to what Melinda quoted about Abraham and Sodom, and what Jesus said about how the men of Sodom "would" have repented if they had seen the types of works/signs that Jesus gave to some in the first century.

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Around Armageddon, which could be a literal time for that final "decision point" we envision that there will be clear signs from heaven. Will any persons at this time, who see these signs from heaven, have a heart condition like those persons in Sodom, who would have repented?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling I read somewhere in our publications (not too long ago) that it will be too late for those at Armageddon to repent.  There are plenty of scriptures that make it clear that only those who put faith in Jesus will be saved....but I don't think there is anything that puts a time frame on it.  Also it might be easy for those who live in Christian countries to put faith in Jesus at the last minute, but what about those in non Christian countries, who don't know much about Jesus or the requirement for salvation. So it would make sense that judging those might involve the reading of hearts, especially considering that there are nearly over 3 billion of such people.  In that case why does WT make that statement about it being too late? What of those over 3 billion people, does the org. believe we will reach all those people before Armageddon, I doubt it.  (I know this has been discussed in a topic here somewhere before, I think I might have I even created that topic)

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7 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

As for Pastor Russell’s beginning research into Bible Truth. He started from scratch to willfully understand scripture as God intended. . . . Therefore, Russell’s first thoughts were apparent.

Yes, I agree that Russell's first thoughts were apparent. Which is why Russell made it clear from the start that he believed not just the 144,000 would be anointed and go to heaven but that the great crowd would also be anointed and go to heaven. (Although of a less worthy class.)

The book you are quoting, above is Divine Plan of the Ages, also known as "Studies in the Scriptures" (or Millennial Dawn), volume 1. That book also shows that Russell believed the "great crowd" would go to heaven. Quoting from page 214:

  • They will have everlasting, spirit life as angels have it, . . . . They will serve God in his temple, and stand before the throne, having palms in their hands (
      Hello guest!
    ); but though that will be glorious, it will not be so glorious as the position of the "little flock" of overcomers, who will be kings and priests unto God, seated with Jesus in the throne as his bride and joint-heir . . .
7 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

I believe I have been quite clear

I'm not sure why you keep insisting on this particular point about Russell's supposed "initial thinking" that only the 144,000 would go to heaven. It is clearly not true, and I'm sure you saw the evidence from what Russell himself said. And now you are quoting another of his books, "SiS V.1," and hinting that this unrelated quote has some relevance to that question. But "SiS V.1" is just another book that shows that Russell was consistent. But I don't get why it's so important to you anyway. If Russell's "initial thinking" was right, and he later changed it to something wrong, then how does this prove that "God gradually opened up his truth," which you also quoted above.  At any rate, Russell was consistent on this point, as far as I can tell.

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Some interesting points from Anna and JWI. Just commenting on clear signs - JWI - and it being too late for those at Armageddon to repent - Anna.

By allowing the preaching to continue Jehovah is allowing people to learn, repent and convert.  Even with a non-Christian nation, the Ninevites, he gave them time to repent, even if it was only 40 days. All nations are accountable to God - non-Christian or not.

The signs from heaven will be clear - including literal celestial phenomena - as Jehovah won't let us be mistaken that it is He who will bring the destruction. (The world powers also have hideous weapons that could also produce some celestial phenomena.) But the Revelation shows that people will say to the mountains and rock-masses to cover them and hide them - nothing stated about their repentance there, but continued looking to earthly sources to protect them, which is idolatry. 

(Revelation 6:14-17) 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Note it says all categories of people  - from the elite to the ordinary people , depicted by high officials to slaves -  will understand that the destruction is the result of the anger of the Lamb, Christ Jesus,  authorized by the One seated on the throne, Jehovah God.

*** w99 12/1 p. 17 pars. 11-12 Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation ***
11 Joyful submission to Jehovah’s sovereignty is the basis for happiness on a personal level and on a universal level. Soon a symbolic great earthquake will shake Satan’s world system to its very foundations and destroy it. There will be no place of refuge for humans who refuse to submit to Christ’s heavenly Kingdom government, representing God’s legitimate domination. The prophecy states: “The kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: ‘Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?’”—Revelation 6:12, 15-17.
12 With regard to that question, in the next chapter, the apostle John describes those making up the great crowd, who come out of the great tribulation, as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:9, 14, 15) Their standing before the throne of God shows that they recognize that throne and fully submit to Jehovah’s sovereignty. They therefore stand approved.

*** re chap. 18 pp. 112-113 Earthquakes in the Lord’s Day ***
“Fall Over Us and Hide Us”
26 John’s words continue: “And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: ‘Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?’”—Revelation 6:15-17.
...
29 Now, the opening of the sixth seal has shown that something similar will happen during the coming day of Jehovah’s wrath. At the final shaking of this earthly system of things, those committed to supporting it will desperately seek for a hiding place, but they will not find one. False religion, Babylon the Great, has already failed them miserably. Neither caves in the literal mountains nor symbolic mountainlike political and commercial organizations will provide financial security or any other kind of help. Nothing will shelter them from Jehovah’s wrath. Their terror is well described by Jesus: “Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”—Matthew 24:30.
30 Yes, those who have refused to recognize the authority of the victorious Rider of the white horse will be forced to admit their error. Humans who have willingly been part of the seed of the serpent will be faced with destruction when Satan’s world passes away. (Genesis 3:15; 1 John 2:17) The world situation at that time will be such that many will, in effect, ask: “Who is able to stand?” They will apparently assume that no one at all can stand approved before Jehovah in that day of his judgment. But they will be wrong, as the book of Revelation goes on to show. END QUOTE

 

[The scriptures do inform us to seek Jehovah before God's fear-inspiring day. (Zephaniah 2:3). But we leave final decisions to the Righteous Judge, the God of all the earth, as to those who are in the middle of converting their lives.

Sodom and Gomorrah: These cities were thoroughly corrupt (they even sought to introduce unnatural sex to the angels) and the destruction came suddenly and Lot and his family were moved immediately to safety by the angels before the destruction overtook them.   We have to learn from what happened to the wife of Lot. Lot's wife left the city physically but her heart was still with the materialistic, corrupt society she was living among. So the angels changed her into a pillar of salt. Those angels could read hearts. (For example, when Sarah doubted the angel and laughed about pregnancy in her old age, he asked her why she laughed, but she had not done it audibly, and when she denied doing so, he said "But you did laugh".) Jesus, the 144,000 and other angels coming with him will also be able to read hearts, and that will make it easy for them to be selective in carrying out the execution of people. (Rev 17:14: 19:14)

Whether these people in Sodom and Gomorrah are in Hades or Gehenna is not clear - we had  some revisions in the publications on that subject. I cannot remember any conclusive comment about it.  Jehovah will do or have done the right thing regarding them. But they and the people in Noah's day are placed before us as a warning of what happens to ungodly people in the future -  2 Peter 2:4-10. We are living in a parallel period now with all types of moral wrongs being sanctioned by various governments and peoples.]

 

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*** it-1 pp. 616-617 Destruction ***
Will all persons who were destroyed by God in times past be dead forever?
The Bible indicates that not all destruction is eternal. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Hebrew word ʼavad·dohnʹ (destruction) is used twice to parallel “Sheol.” (Job 26:6; Pr 15:11) The prophet Zephaniah spoke of the destruction of Assyria, whereas Ezekiel said that the Assyrians would go down to Sheol. (Zep 2:13; Eze 32:21, 22) When speaking of the destruction of the rebels Dathan and Abiram, Moses wrote that they went down “alive into Sheol.” (Nu 16:31, 33) Since Sheol in the Bible denotes the common grave of mankind from which there will be a resurrection, it is evident that not all destruction—not even all destruction at the hand of Godis necessarily eternal.

Everlasting Destruction. The Bible does not indicate that all the dead will be resurrected. Jesus implied this when he spoke of “those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead.” (Lu 20:35) The possibility of eternal destruction for some is also indicated by Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” Regarding this text, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (edited by C. Brown, 1978, Vol. 3, p. 304) states: “Matt. 10:28 teaches not the potential immortality of the soul but the irreversibility of divine judgment on the unrepentant.” Also, Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 95) gives the meaning “eternal death” with reference to the Greek phrase in Matthew 10:28 translated “destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” Thus, being consigned to Gehenna refers to utter destruction from which no resurrection is possible.—See GEHENNA.
Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them . . . are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.” (Jude 7) That punishment evidently applies not merely to the physical cities but to their inhabitants as well, because it was the people themselves who committed the gross sins that led to their annihilation.
The possibility of eternal destruction is particularly an issue during the conclusion of the system of things. When Jesus was asked by his disciples what would be ‘the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things,’ he included as part of his answer the parable of the sheep and the goats. (Mt 24:3; 25:31-46) Concerning “the goats” it was foretold that the heavenly King would say: “Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels,” and Jesus added, “These will depart into everlasting cutting-off.” Clearly the attitude and actions of some individuals will result in their permanent destruction.  END QUOTE

The Bible  at Jude 7 did say Sodom and Gomorrah have undergone "everlasting fire".  Certainly Satan and his demons, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira, those destroyed at Noah's Day and at Armageddon, are in that lot.  (Matthew 24: 37-39; Matt 25:41,46))

I think the point was raised by JWI about Jesus reading hearts and saying the people of Sodom would have repented after seeing certain signs. 

(Matthew 11:20-24) 20 Then he began to reproach the cities in which most of his powerful works had taken place, for they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Cho·raʹzin! Woe to you, Beth·saʹi·da! because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Tyre and Siʹdon, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more endurable for Tyre and Siʹdon on Judgment Day than for you. 23 And you, Ca·perʹna·um, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to the Grave you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodʹom, it would have remained until this very day. 24 But I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom on Judgment Day than for you.”

Checking here is says Sodom would have remained until this day, and that the people of Tyre and Sidon would have repented and it brings the people of Sodom and Gomorrah into the conversation about Judgement Day.  So that is where the speculation begins.

Thanks for the impetus to do more research. Look forward to your comments and those of others. 

 

 

 


 

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling I read somewhere in our publications (not too long ago) that it will be too late for those at Armageddon to repent.  There are plenty of scriptures that make it clear that only those who put faith in Jesus will be saved....but I don't think there is anything that puts a time frame on it.

Yes. We know that the Bible itself says that for many, a time will come when it will be too late for some to repent. But as you say, we don't know when, exactly in the timeline this point occurs. We know that it would be "wicked" for any of us who truly know God's undeserved kindness to use it as an excuse for badness, using the idea that we could always repent at the last minute. But there are so many things we don't know about God's judgment. For example, what if the Great Tribulation goes on for three months, and Armageddon goes on for 25 seconds? What if the Great Tribulation is 100 years long and Armageddon is 200 years long? I think most Witnesses anticipate a period shorter than the common 3.5 and/or 7 year speculation that is often attached by fundamentalists and literalists to either or both of these events. But we have no direct knowledge from the Bible about these timelines, except from Revelation, a book which we usually interpret non-literally. Therefore I don't think most of us would be deeply offended if the Watchtower someday taught that the Great Tribulation turns out to be the entire history of mankind. I don't expect that, and I don't believe it, but there is a lot of flexibility available in the interpretation of symbols.

8 hours ago, Anna said:

Also it might be easy for those who live in Christian countries to put faith in Jesus at the last minute, but what about those in non Christian countries, who don't know much about Jesus or the requirement for salvation.

For that matter, who is to say whether any great majority in Christian countries have faith in the same Jesus who taught "undeserved kindness" and heart motivation as opposed to those who think Christianity is about a reward for righteous works? Allen Smith has previously questioned whether it is, in fact, only a smaller minority of Jehovah's Witnesses who are really Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus said at Luke 18:8:

  • (Luke 18: 6-8) 6 Then the Lord said: “Hear what the judge, although unrighteous, said! 7 Certainly, then, will not God cause justice to be done for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night, while he is patient toward them? 8 I tell you, he will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth?”

The "type of faith" here is in a God who gives justice, not based on our own merit or works or legalistic requirements, but based on our petitions and desire, as he loves us enough to patiently "put up" with us in our sinful state. This is a difficult concept for most works-based organizations promoting Christianity. There could be an implication that those in supposedly Christian nations are in pretty much 'the same boat' as those in nations who have barely (or never) heard of Jesus.

8 hours ago, Anna said:

What of those over 3 billion people, does the org. believe we will reach all those people before Armageddon, I doubt it.

And speaking of patience and those "3 billion." Every year that goes by brings an even greater number of people who are not being reached. If as Peter says, that the patience of our Lord means salvation to more people, then there is no evidence that this salvation is related to our efforts to preach to more people. The number of persons alive who will have effectively never even heard of Jehovah's Witnesses (or Jesus) goes up every year. If the end comes today, this might be, as you say, "3 billion." If the end comes in 10 years, the number of persons alive at that time who will never have heard of us (or Jesus) might be "3.5 billion." If the end comes in 20 years, the number of persons alive at that time who will have never heard of us (or Jesus) might be "4 billion." So if it were based on our efforts as Witnesses to reach these persons, then the patience of our Lord would mean greater death and destruction to billions more people.

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On 9/19/2018 at 4:48 PM, JW Insider said:

I'm not sure why you keep insisting on this particular point about Russell's supposed "initial thinking" that only the 144,000 would go to heaven. It is clearly not true, and I'm sure you saw the evidence from what Russell himself said.

Your answer:

On 9/19/2018 at 6:06 PM, AllenSmith34 said:

Probably because no one has come to understand the beginning ideology of Pastor Russell since you keep insisting he erred in judgment when he didn’t have all the facts and God’s guidance that he eventually received.

I certainly don't claim to understand everything about Russell's ideology. I'm actually not even insisting that he erred in judgment. He may very well be right when he claimed that the great crowd of Revelation 7:14 will be in heaven. Our own current teaching on that particular verse could change. Of course, this would not change the Scriptural fact that a great crowd of people would survive the great tribulation and live on earth. And it would not change the fact that Russell also knew --from places outside this particular verse-- that there would be a great crowd of people on earth, which you and I already accept.

But it makes no sense for you to complain about a claim that Russell might have erred if you also admit that there was a time when he didn't have all the facts and would only eventually receive God's guidance in certain matters. I'm sure that you yourself would also admit that he might have erred in judgment before having all the facts. But you haven't been clear if this means that his "initial" judgment was wrong and he eventually came around to seeing that the "great crowd" would NOT be in heaven, or if he never believed what he said, and/or meant something different all along.

Neither choice would explain why Rutherford also believed the "great crowd" would be in heaven . This was something Rutherford believed up until at least 1933, and probably up until closer to 1935.

On 9/19/2018 at 6:06 PM, AllenSmith34 said:

So, it is NOT I that make those claims, they come from you. That’s where the revision comes from for the great crowd, and the little flock, not before. So, as far as you can tell, it merits further analyzes in your part.

I'd be happy to change my opinion about what Russell said, if you could show the evidence that he meant something else, or didn't mean what he said, or changed his opinion on this matter over time. That's not just for you, but for anyone who can show any evidence.

Based on years of interaction, I have a feeling that you dig in your heels and insist on making claims without evidence because you seem anxious to prove your own superior knowledge about Russell and the Bible Students. On certain points, I think you have provided valuable references and resources. On this point however, it's not just Russell's own words you are up against, but you are also opposing the more current understanding of the Watchtower when the beliefs of Russell and the Bible Students are reviewed:

*** w64 12/1 p. 724 Out of the Tombs to a “Resurrection of Life” ***

  • For many years Christian Bible students understood the “resurrection of life” to include (1) the church or congregation of the 144,000 joint heirs of Christ, and (2) an unnumbered “great company” of spiritual Christians not included in the 144,000 but serving under them in heaven

I think you've seen evidence that the Watchtower is correct here, and that your claim is incorrect. Bible Students held this belief from as far back as the 1880 Watchtower, and put it in print as recently as 1933. I didn't double-check the Watchtowers of this period, but I see it in Vindication (1932) and Preparation (1933). (When the Jonadab class was still considered separate from the "great multitude.") It's possible that it was even repeated up until the doctrine was changed in 1935.

Here's a mention of that in 2003 and elsewhere:

*** w03 2/15 p. 19 par. 9 What Does the Lord’s Evening Meal Mean to You? ***

  • But on May 31, 1935, in a discourse given at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., it was Scripturally explained that the “great crowd” (“great multitude,” King James Version) refers to the “other sheep” who live during the time of the end. (John 10:16) After that convention, some who had previously partaken of the Memorial emblems stopped partaking because they realized that their hope was earthly, not heavenly.

*** w98 2/15 p. 20 par. 8 Glorious Freedom Soon for the Children of God ***

  • In 1935 the “great multitude,” or “great crowd”—formerly thought to be a secondary spiritual class that would be “companions” of the bride of Christ in heaven

*** w95 2/1 p. 13 par. 16 A Great Crowd of True Worshipers—From Where Have They Come? ***

  • For a time Jehovah’s servants believed that the great multitude (or, great crowd) of Revelation 7:9, 10 . . . Because the Bible says that they are “standing before the throne,” it was thought that they would be in heaven, not on thrones, ruling as joint heirs with Christ, but in a secondary place in front of the throne. They were viewed as less faithful Christians, ones who did not show a spirit of true self-sacrifice. In 1935 that view was corrected.
On 9/19/2018 at 6:06 PM, AllenSmith34 said:

Therefore, the one that has been wrong about Pastor Russell, and Rutherford, along with their initial views is yourself. And that’s been the problem here that you can’t seem to accept, along with your followers.

You said that following a quote from Volume 2 of "SiS" The Time is at Hand. Unfortunately, that quote and that book also does not support your opposition to Russell's clear statements, and your opposition to the Watchtower's more recent statements quoted above. That book was written when Watch Tower publications were still consistent that both the 144,000 and the "great multitude" would go to heaven. 

After this you quoted quite a few things from Volume 3 of "SiS" Thy Kingdom Come, especially the portions about the wheat and tares. If you read more of Russell's words on the subject you will see that the portion you quoted was not relevant to his understanding of Revelation 7:9-17. Russell did have a confused belief about the tares, but this was necessary because if you read the contemporary Watch Tower articles on the subject you will see that he actually did tie the tares to other Christian groups and religions of Christendom, and he therefore had to try to remove the idea that being "burnt in the fire" referred to their destruction. After all these "burnt" ones were still going to heaven in Russell's view. Watch carefully how Russell managed this amazing feat, in the same book you quoted, Thy Kingdom Come:

  • Is not this a most remarkable agreement between this stone "Witness" and the Bible? The dates, October, 1874, and October, 1881, are exact, while the date 1910, though not furnished in the Scriptures, seems more than a reasonable one for some important event in the Church's experience and final testing, while A.D. 1914 is apparently well-defined as its close, after which the world's greatest trouble is due, in which some of the "great multitude" may have a share. And in this connection let us remember that this date limit--A.D. 1914--may not only witness the completion of the selection and trial and glorification of the entire body of Christ, but it may also witness the purifying of some of that larger company of consecrated believers who, through fear and faint-heartedness, failed to render acceptable sacrifices to God, and who therefore became more or less contaminated with the world's ideas and ways. Some of these, before the end of this period, may come up out of the great tribulation. Many such are now being closely bound in with the various bundles of tares for the burning; and not until the fiery trouble of the latter end of the harvest period shall burn the binding cords of Babylon's bondage shall these be able to make their escape--"saved so as by fire." They must see the utter wreck of Great Babylon and receive some measure of her plagues. The four years from 1910 to the end of 1914, indicated thus in the Great Pyramid, will doubtless be a time of "fiery trial" upon the Church  . . .

What Russell did here, of course, was to replace the fiery destruction of the tares (weeds) with the idea that these actually represented the place from which the "great multitude" would be saved from. The "fire" became a time of "fiery trial" with a purifying effect. It becomes 4 years of a great tribulation (from about 1910 to 1914) that would come on the Church. The "great multitude" would be saved out of this "great tribulation." This fire would evidently also burn some of the tares, but notice how he turns the focus of that fire to purification and salvation: "burn the binding cords of Babylon's bondage" and being "saved so as by fire" and "the purifying of some of that larger company." This particular sleight-of-hand interpretation was soon dropped from Russell's teachings, and the tares began to refer only to those fit for destruction, while the less worthy "great multitude" continued to be seen as having a heavenly destination. (See the full article from the February 1916 Watch Tower, for example, quoted in a previous post.) 

On 9/19/2018 at 6:06 PM, AllenSmith34 said:

By understanding who Pastor Russell was referring to in proper English, which fails modern people.

Understanding who Russell referred to doesn't have to fail modern readers. There are people who can even read Shakespeare, or the KJV of the 17th century and understand it. Reading Russell's English is relatively straightforward compared to older English.

I hate to have to point it out again, but I get the feeling you are doing something that you have become infamous for doing in the past. Your name has become almost synonymous with opposing some small bit of truth that shouldn't even matter that much in the long run. And then when you are shown that you are opposing the evidence, and even opposing the Watchtower in this case, you dig in your heels and start going on about things that were not really related to the question. And another favorite tactic, apparently, is to copy quotes from somewhere that might seem relevant and might make some people believe that you found "evidence" you were right. Perhaps it even convinces some people. But it's very difficult for me to see how you can look at evidence of something and just oppose it or deny it without responding to the evidence and without giving any counter-evidence.

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11 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

Or are we confident, those have already been judged by God? What is the difference in this theoretical focus? Would Judas have the same prospect? would those that committed suicide, be raised? On suicide, it would merit considering the mental state of a person rather than just being fed up with life.

 I think I am confident the people in Sodom and Gomorrah, Judas, and others sinning against the holy spirit,  were already judged by God and have undergone eternal destruction.  See my comment above.  Others may wish to comment on people committing suicide, etc.

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32 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

Is it I that question God’s authority?

No, I've never seen you do that. Nor have I seen myself do that. What I wrote was that you are often seen "opposing some small bit of truth that shouldn't even matter that much in the long run" and that you don't actually deal with the evidence. You often just throw out unrelated points in response to evidence. Even if these unrelated points are perfectly true, they have nothing to do with the evidence you are opposing and denying. In this case, you are even opposing the Watchtower's version of events.

32 minutes ago, AllenSmith34 said:

At what point did this become unclear, that ALL arrangements would have been set in place by the end of the millennium.

If that question was directed at me, I never thought any of these particular points were unclear (about ALL arrangements being set in place by the end of the millennium), nor did I ever say they were. Perhaps you are referencing the fact that earlier you said: "I [Allen] think I [Allen] have been quite clear . . . " After you said that, I pointed out that on this particular topic you have been very clearly opposing the evidence, and the Watchtower, too. Your method of responding to evidence by throwing out a lot of unrelated points is clearly typical for you, but it's also very clear what you are likely doing. From past experience interacting with you, I'm guessing that you find it impossible to admit a mistake. That's OK with me. I don't particularly like that style; it's not for me, but it's one I've seen a lot. I wouldn't judge you over this, but for your sake, I hope it's not a reflection of your offline persona.

In the meantime, I'll assume you still have found no evidence for your theory about Russell's teaching regarding the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9-17.

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5 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

If you know of such a thing within scripture, feel free to elaborate, since that kind of includes 99.2% of Christianity in just this one point, alone. So, what good does it do to be admirable or exemplary in charity or love, if in the other hand you cancel all that humanitarian good with one evil action?

Your post was worth an up-vote just for this one point alone (about not participating in warfare). In general, it's my own favorite when discussing why Witnesses have a right to claim "authority" and "high ground" over other religions who feel we should have no right to try to convert others, or imposing our own view of the Bible as better than theirs. Other doctrines like Trinity and Hellfire are up there too, but this one should appeal most closely to the true practice of Christianity. Wisdom is proved righteous by its works.

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Anytime you want to invoke "What credentials do you have?", remember that Adolph Hitler saved Germany from destitution left over from World War I, made the trains run on time, created the Autobahn, was a vegetarian, and loved dogs.  He was TIME Magazines "Man of the Year" ... twice, and rooted out Communism from Germany.

In fact, in the minds of most Germans he was adored, and the Churches even celebrated his birthday.  He fought in World War I, and twice received the Iron Cross.

With all these super-fine  "credentials" ........ we are STILL talking about Adolph Hitler.

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On 9/19/2018 at 10:34 PM, JW Insider said:

There could be an implication that those in supposedly Christian nations are in pretty much 'the same boat' as those in nations who have barely (or never) heard of Jesus.

I agree, but I meant it more in the sense "who will they call on if they've never heard" in which case, I guess, Jehovah can read their hearts and predict how they would have reacted had they heard.

 

On 9/19/2018 at 10:34 PM, JW Insider said:

So if it were based on our efforts as Witnesses to reach these persons, then the patience of our Lord would mean greater death and destruction to billions more people.

True!

So going back to God reading hearts, that will ultimately have to be the case, I can't see how else people could be judged righteously. We (the org.) don't seem to say much about that though. We talk about those billions who have died (apparently over 100 billion to date). But we don't talk about those who will be alive during Armageddon.

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On 9/17/2018 at 6:41 PM, JW Insider said:

Many persons will no doubt witness such spectacles of Jehovah's selective judgments, and realize they are not random, but purposeful. This would have to be interpreted as a true and spectacular judgment message from heaven. That means that, in effect, EVERYBODY who witnesses Jehovah's judgments will now be one of Jehovah's witnesses at this point,

This absolutely makes no sense. While yes with a play of words it is true, but not in the sense of jws today. I think that is a bit of grasping at straws really. 

I don't have the articles on hand at the moment, but I do recall the sentiment of actual jws will be the only ones left. This was my question and point. Since no one here has come out and said "only jws will be left", I'll have to find the articles. I think Tony Morris spoke on this as well and mentioned something of the sort of likeness between human flesh and hotdogs on a grill.  

I'll dig up the articles, but even if I do it seems as though most will shrug it off and make some excuse. But the question still remains:

Is it your position that only jws, as they are defined and structured today, will be left after the 1000 year reign? 

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5 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Is it your position that only jws, as they are defined and structured today, will be left after the 1000 year reign? 

This was addressed to @JWInsider , but I would like to cite a couple of scriptures very much in the consciousness of all true Christians today. They are:

1Co.11:12 "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall."

Matt.7:21 "“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will"

These have a bearing on who will "left after the 1000 year reign.

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1 minute ago, Gone Away said:

This was addressed to @JWInsider , but I would like to cite a couple of scriptures very much in the consciousness of all true Christians today. They are:

1Co.11:12 "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall."

Matt.7:21 "“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will"

These have a bearing on who will "left after the 1000 year reign.

While there are PLENTY of scriptures we can quote, I'm more interested in the official stance on the matter from the gb vs regular jws. 

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

the official stance

it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
.

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14 hours ago, Gone Away said:

it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
.

Oh I quite agree with you, however when it is stated in the publications otherwise, what do you make of it? Do you side with scripture or do you side with the organizations publications? 

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"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19

"They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry Nov 1990

 Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "Are You Prepared for Survival?"

"But Jehovah's servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things." Watchtower  Dec 2007

"An even greater mistake would be to allow the faults of others to stumble us and cause us to leave Jehovah’s organization. Were that to happen, we would lose not only the privilege of doing God’s will but also the hope of life in God’s new world."  Watchtower June 2016 study edition

 

So while some of you claim that it is only God who decides, which IS true, the wt has made the claims otherwise.

 

Gone Away:   Which side are you on? The Bible, God's word, or the publications of the wt? 

 

JW Insider: While the talk may be toned down, the position hasn't changed since at least 1989. Unless it has changed in the past 2 years
 

Through the publications of the wt, they have stated that only jws will survive Armageddon and the 1000 year reign.  So those of you who are jws, how does that sit with you in light of scripture?

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19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

it’s not our job to judge who will or wonÂ’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in JesusÂ’ hands.—

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
.

 

9 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Unless it has changed in the past 2 years

Don't know about changes, but that was the official position about   image.png  as far as I can see .

Of course statements like the ones you quote could be misunderstood by onlookers to suggest that organisational membership is all that is required for salvation, but that is not the view of anyone taking the Bible seriously. If your agenda includes making that point, then in the light of Matthew 7:21-23, (quoted earlier), it is a good point and is duly noted.

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1 minute ago, Gone Away said:

Of course statements like the ones you quote could be misunderstood by onlookers to suggest that organisational membership is all that is required for salvation, but that is not the view of anyone taking the Bible seriously. If your agenda includes making that point, then in the light of Matthew 7:21-23, (quoted earlier), it is a good point and is duly noted.

It is interesting to note that you too, thought that those quotes would lead someone to believe that the wt is saying that one must be part of the wt org for salvation. That must be because it DOES SAY THAT. 

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10 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

I almost thought I could agree with you, but this is not a logical conclusion.

It is the cognitive dissonance that won't allow you. It is completely logical and that is the problem.  

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lets try this another way. According to the publications produced by the wt:

What group solely has any scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system? 

 

What group must one identify with to gain salvation?

 

If we left a group and lost the hope of life in God's new world because of leaving this group, what group would that be? 

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53 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

lets try this another way. According to the publications produced by the wt:

What group solely has any scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system? 

 

What group must one identify with to gain salvation?

 

If we left a group and lost the hope of life in God's new world because of leaving this group, what group would that be? 

Yes it seems that the GB of the JW Org think they own God. And this must relate to the other discussion about whether the GB have put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ. 

We know that no one comes to the Father except through the Son. So we approach Jehovah through Jesus Christ. And, Jesus Christ has been given power and authority to judge us all.   Um, no mention of being a member of the Org here. We will all be judged as individuals either by Christ or the Angels, if the Angels have been given authority to do so.

However i was talking (calmly) about this with my wife over dinner. It would be sensible for God to have a useable organisation here on earth at the time of Judgement... If as it seems, the GB, and therefore at present the JW Org, are not suitable for purpose, then what will Jehovah / Jesus Christ do ? The GB are stumbling so many that they must be blood guilty of much. Hundreds of people are leaving the JW Org earthwide. This is because congregants can see the GB and elders are acting against the instructions given by Christ. So therefore if someone leaves the Org for the right reasons, as I did, I cannot see that Jehovah or Jesus Christ would punish them. 

Or do you think people should continue to offer children to Molech just to please the GB. 

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41 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The GB are stumbling so many that they must be blood guilty of much. Hundreds of people are leaving the JW Org earthwide. This is because congregants can see the GB and elders are acting against the instructions given by Christ. So therefore if someone leaves the Org for the right reasons, as I did, I cannot see that Jehovah or Jesus Christ would punish them. 

Or do you think people should continue to offer children to Molech just to please the GB. 

The wt IS offering children to Molech by means of allowing pedophiles to hide within. 

It is super simple, report abuse to the police........period.

Quit trying to be above the law. 

In fact we are to pray for those in charge, government leaders/police/mayors/etc. 

1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.

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damn typical fashion!!!! UGH, distracted this from the main topic by means of the shell game. 

You're good mr gone away, very good. I bit. 

 

Back to our regular scheduled program. 

 

 

So which is it? Alliance with the Bible on who is still here after Armageddon or the wt and its publications? 

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11 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

damn typical fashion!!!! UGH, distracted this from the main topic by means of the shell game. 

You're good mr gone away, very good. I bit. 

 

Back to our regular scheduled program. 

 

 

So which is it? Alliance with the Bible on who is still here after Armageddon or the wt and its publications? 

Well for anyone truly wanting to serve God properly it has to be alliance with God's written word. in fact serving God not serving the GB of JW Org. 

However i do have many thoughts about the Bible, such as was it written only for a certain type of people to understand fully. The Bible was written with the aid of Holy Spirit, so then is it only fully understandable by an anointed class who have a 'special' relationship with God ?

Then of course comes the next question.“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

In my opinion it cannot be the Governing Body of the JW Org for many reasons. One reason being that they change their minds about the meaning of scriptures so often. This is like taking the food out of someone's mouth whilst they are yet chewing it, and then putting different food in... 

Another reason is obviously the Child Abuse /  Pedophilia issues, which a loving caring anointed class wound not allow to happen. 

And another reason being the way they lump heavy burdens on the congregants by means of 'traditions of men'. Shunning being one example. 

So. 'Who really is.......................... Well God will have to let us know for sure before the Judgement comes, otherwise will it have been fair to us if we are in confusion ?

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23 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

So which is it? Alliance with the Bible on who is still here after Armageddon or the wt and its publications? 

No one here can explain their position I guess. Then again, I guess no one here would need to since the publications already state the position jws are suppose to accept. 

 

So then this lead me to another question.......

 

The wt says that they (jws) are going to be the only ones left after Armageddon,  whom are they going to fight in the end after the 1000 year reign? Other jws? I guess so, since they are the only ones left..........how does that fit with the whole "we don't go to war" thing? oops, "Houston we have a problem"

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10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

No one here can explain their position I guess. Then again, I guess no one here would need to since the publications already state the position jws are suppose to accept. 

 

So then this lead me to another question.......

 

The wt says that they (jws) are going to be the only ones left after Armageddon,  whom are they going to fight in the end after the 1000 year reign? Other jws? I guess so, since they are the only ones left..........how does that fit with the whole "we don't go to war" thing? oops, "Houston we have a problem"

I don't know about anyone fighting anyone else BUT, there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the UNrighteous. 

The righteous are the ones that served God before they died. The unrighteous are the ones that didn't serve God before they died.

So, the unrighteous will be given the chance to learn about God, hence millions of 'Bible studies' in the resurrection. Then they will be judged near the end of the 1,000 years. But it seems many will chose to be in opposition to God at that time. 

That all seems to make sense in a practical way. If it's true or not only time will tell. 

Now as for your first sentence. "The wt says that they (jws) are going to be the only ones left after Armageddon", well I don't believe they have the right to say that, if they did actually say it. 

I can see some sort of reasoning such as, 'only one ARK' 'only those in the ARK survived'. 'Only Noah and his family did just as God commanded'. That bit makes sense.

But i think it gets far more complicated than that.  (will write more later). 

 

 

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12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I don't know about anyone fighting anyone else BUT, there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the UNrighteous. 

The righteous are the ones that served God before they died. The unrighteous are the ones that didn't serve God before they died.

So, the unrighteous will be given the chance to learn about God, hence millions of 'Bible studies' in the resurrection. Then they will be judged near the end of the 1,000 years. But it seems many will chose to be in opposition to God at that time. 

That all seems to make sense in a practical way. If it's true or not only time will tell. 

Now as for your first sentence. "The wt says that they (jws) are going to be the only ones left after Armageddon", well I don't believe they have the right to say that, if they did actually say it. 

I can see some sort of reasoning such as, 'only one ARK' 'only those in the ARK survived'. 'Only Noah and his family did just as God commanded'. That bit makes sense.

But i think it gets far more complicated than that.  (will write more later). 

 

 

sure, but jws don't go to war. They don't fight. But in Revelation 20 it says they will. AND if they truly believe that they are the only ones left, then they MUST be fighting each other. In other words, their beliefs do not add up. Its the same as most places and beliefs that they interpret, they try and play both sides of the coin. 

Think about the latest video of all the folks in the field and their "Jesus" comes to save them with his bow and arrow from those chasing them. Well in the scenario presented where they are the only ones left, well those who are chasing them are also jws. It just doesn't makes sense.  

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On 12/21/2017 at 12:57 PM, DeeDee said:

Can anyone explain this to me?: Rev. 20:5 -- (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)…”?

“Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day”. 2 Pet 3:8

All confusion is based on the erroneous teaching of when the symbolic Thousand Year reign of Christ takes place.  From the day he took his throne alongside God, he has been ruling.

This is the declaration of the Lord
to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.”
The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion.
Rule over your surroundingenemies.  Ps 110:1,2

“Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he abolishes all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he puts all his enemies under his feet.”  1 Cor 15:24,25

“He is now waiting until his enemies are made his footstool.”  Heb 10:13

Since the first century, each anointed under Christ must personally defeat the enemy, Satan.  Those proven faithful, sacrifice their life for Truth, in imitation of their Master.  John 12:24,25; Rom 6:5; Rev 6:9-11  Satan has demanded to sift each one as “wheat” to prove each one’s faithfulness to God.   Rev 2:10; Luke 22:31

Rev 20:4 – “Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

( Luke 15:24,32; Rom 6:11; Eph 2:1-6; Rev 5:9,10; [Rev 3:1])

Rev 20:4 is speaking of those anointed since Christ who successfully defeated whatever Satan threw at them during their physical lifetime.  But, during the last days, Satan crafts a new plan to take down the remaining anointed, the last of the “woman’s seed”.  Rev 12:17

The abyss/Hades is darkness, a place of “not perceiving”.  When Satan was “chained” and thrown into the abyss by Christ, he had no ability to fabricate his last scheme to come against the remnant.  He was “restrained” for the symbolic “thousand years”. Rev 20:3  When let loose from this restraint, he then instigated his “Beasts” of Revelation that CONQUER the “saints”/”holy ones”.  THEY receive the “mark of the Beast on their foreheads or their hands.” 

“He (Beast/false prophet)  causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Rev 13:16,17

Buy or sell what?  Spiritual provisions or “wormwood”, issued from the mouth of false prophet/beast, and “sold” under the name of the Beast. Rev 8:10,11  The price?  One’s dedication and “worship” to this powerful, most amazing Beast of Rev 13:1,3,4

So, the “beast and its image” of Rev 20:4 doesn’t make an appearance until after the thousand year reign of Christ is completed, and who’s existence culminates during the Great Tribulation. Jesus pointed out how difficult the time period would be for God’s “elect”. 

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.”  Matt 24:21-25

“The beast was given a mouth to utter boasts and blasphemies. It was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. It began to speak blasphemies against God: to blaspheme His name and His dwelling—those who dwell in heavenAnd it was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. It was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. All those who live on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the bookof life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.”

The “dwelling” of God is His Temple - the anointed ones – 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22

 The Beast image is directed by a false prophet/Harlot who “breathes” life into the image. (footnote in NKJV says, “or spirit or life” which equates to a “spirit-directed” image) God’s people succumb to the delusion.  2 Thess 2:9-12   Watchtower calls these Beasts, Christendom and the United Nations, but the UN has not “conquered” the “dwelling” of God.  Every one of the anointed, from all tribe, people, language, and nation have not lost their life for their “testimony to Christ”.  They bear the mark of the Beast.  Also, everyone else under the Beast, from all tribe, people, language and nation are under the “authority” of the Beast.  They must obey, or be “killed”.

Those who resist the Beast and its false prophet, although decreed as spiritually “dead”, come alive in Christ if they choose to listen and follow, God’s Son.   

“Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words: “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count those who worship there. But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Don’t measure it, because it is given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.  Rev 11:1-4

“When they finish their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war on them, conquer them, and kill them.” Rev 11:7

How does the beast come out of the abyss?  Satan, who has been let loose from the abyss, brings with him, his fabrication to deceive. He uses the false prophet/beast of Rev 13:11 to introduce it.  From that point, the Beast from the (“Gentile”) Sea (Rev 13:1) takes on a life of its own as “spirit-directed”.    Rev 13:1,2; Rev 9:1-6

“But after three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet. Great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” They went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.”  Rev 11:11,12

These are the anointed who successfully overcome the Beast.  This can happen while still living on the earth.  Heb 12:1; 12:22; Rev 5:9,10

Rev 20:5 – “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.”

All who “worship”/revere the “inspired” Beast, are not written in the Lamb’s Book of life.  Rev 13:8

The book of Revelation exposes the end time assault to come against God’s anointed servants under the “woman covenant”.  Rev 1:1; Gal 4:26; Rev 12:3,4

Gog and Magog give other characteristics of the two Beasts.  They surround the “encampment of the saints”/anointed holy people, who have been deceived by the devil.    Rev 20:9    The "saints" are found "gathered" in the Watchtower.  No other alternate "organization" or leaders have the ability to know who they might be.

“The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”  Rev 20:10

There is no escape from the “lake of fire and sulfur” to deceive twice.  This event could not occur after Armageddon, and after a “thousand year” time of peace, since it is the anointed “saints” that Rev 20:9 addresses.  The faithful, sealed anointed will be ruling with Christ in God’s Kingdom after Armageddon, which brings an end to all evil, and of Satan.

Again, 1 Cor  15:24,25 - “Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he abolishes all rule and all authority and power25 For he must reign until he puts all his enemies under his feet.”   

The end time tribulation is all based on deceit – what we spiritually want to perceive. If we “conquer” the deceit, our heart truly desires to know and walk in truth. This is how we gain life.  We must overcome the deception, “wormwood”, slavery to men, all falsehoods, and the fear that men have more say over our spirituality than Christ himself. Dan 8:11

Leaving all of that behind is what Jesus’ faithful disciples had to do in the first century and what is happening to those who are "killed" - disfellowshipped - by the Beast.

“Therefore, everyone who will acknowledge me before others, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever denies me before others, I will also deny him before my Father in heaven. 34 Don’t assume that I came to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to turn

a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man’s enemies will be
the members of his household.

37 The one who loves a father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; the one who loves a son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever doesn’t take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Anyone who finds his life will lose it, and anyone who loses his life because of me will find it.”

The faithful are killed by the Wild Beast because of their testimony about Jesus Christ and his glory – not “Jehovah”, and not “Jehovah’s organization”.  Rev 12:11,17;19:10;20:4  They stand only for him and the Father.  John 4;23,24

How difficult it is for JWs to realize their love for the organization – the Wild Beast -  takes precedence over any love they may have for Christ. 

John 16:13,14; 17:1-5,24

 

 

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"... As happened with the ancient city of Jerusalem, Jehovah will use secular forces to do the unthinkable —to attack all false religious organizations on earth... Just as Jerusalem’s destruction was “a unique calamity,” so the “great tribulation” with its war of Armageddon will be an event that “has not occurred” before...

... God’s Word indicates that individual supporters of false religion will survive the coming destruction of religious institutions. Fearful, these survivors will join other individuals of all ranks who will be searching for a hiding place...

... any hiding places into which the survivors of the attack on religion may run will not shield them from Jehovah’s sword. At Armageddon, they will be put to death, together with all other goatlike ones.

... The time left to “make disciples of people of all the nations” is limited. When the attack of “the rod” (the secular forces) against religion begins, we will no longer preach a message of salvation... As far as sharing good news is concerned, we will become “mute,” just as Ezekiel became mute, or stopped proclaiming his messages, during part of his ministry... True, after the destruction of false religion, people will, in a sense, desperately “seek a vision from a prophet,” but no lifesaving instructions will be given to them. The time to receive such instruction and to become a disciple of Christ will have passed...

... However, our work as preachers will not cease. Why not? During the great tribulation, we may well begin proclaiming a message of judgment that will be like a plague of hail. That message will clearly signal that the end of the wicked world is upon mankind... "

The above is from the pure worship book. 

This makes it pretty clear that the wt/gb says that only jws will survive. 

 

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"To survive the coming destruction, individuals need to prove their faith now. As we saw earlier, those who survived Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E. demonstrated beforehand their heartfelt rejection of wickedness and their devotion to pure worship. It is similar today. Before the destruction comes, individuals need to be “sighing and groaning”—deeply grieved at heart—over the wickedness of this world. And rather than hide their feelings, they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship. How can they do so? They need to react favorably to the preaching work that is being done today, to continue putting on a Christlike personality, to get baptized in symbol of their dedication to Jehovah, and to support Christ’s brothers loyally. (Ezek. 9:4; Matt. 25:34-40; Eph. 4:22-24; 1 Pet. 3:21) Only those who pursue such a course now—and who enter the great tribulation as pure worshippers—will be in a position to be marked for survival."

Also from the same book. 

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11 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

"To survive the coming destruction, individuals need to prove their faith now. As we saw earlier, those who survived Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E. demonstrated beforehand their heartfelt rejection of wickedness and their devotion to pure worship. It is similar today. Before the destruction comes, individuals need to be “sighing and groaning”—deeply grieved at heart—over the wickedness of this world. And rather than hide their feelings, they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship. How can they do so? They need to react favorably to the preaching work that is being done today, to continue putting on a Christlike personality, to get baptized in symbol of their dedication to Jehovah, and to support Christ’s brothers loyally. (Ezek. 9:4; Matt. 25:34-40; Eph. 4:22-24; 1 Pet. 3:21) Only those who pursue such a course now—and who enter the great tribulation as pure worshippers—will be in a position to be marked for survival."

Also from the same book. 

".... they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship ".

So the question to ask is, Where is this pure worship ? 

It certainly is not within the JW Org governed by the Governing Body. The GB have proved themselves false in so many ways.  

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25 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

".... they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship ".

So the question to ask is, Where is this pure worship ? 

It certainly is not within the JW Org governed by the Governing Body. The GB have proved themselves false in so many ways.  

Well according to the article: "...and to support Christ’s brothers loyally."  That's where.....

 

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1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Remember United in Worship... book, can't remember one with Pure Worship. Could you write out the full name of the book.

Pure Worship of Jehovah—Restored at Last! is the title of this book

 

 

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Answer for Shiwii

Rev 20:7  Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. 

Restored mankind will not be fighting each other, though.  They will not be learning war in the 1000-year reign.  But as the final test is placed on all perfected humans, some rebels will come forth.  The true nature of their hearts will be revealed and they will show their true colours. They will attack the ones who are loyal to the kingdom. The warriors/rebels will be in effect be fighting against God, like at Armageddon.  The warriors will be on one side, and Jehovah will fight for them the other side, his restored faithful people, who will be granted everlasting life after the final test.  Fire will come down from heaven and eat up these rebels.  (See quotes below)

*** g91 12/8 p. 11 When Old Wounds Are Healed ***
Unlike all the wars that have been waged by humans, the standard of justice that will prevail in that coming war of God is absolute. It is the standard of the Creator of mankind, who has the best interests of humanity at heart. Unlike political leaders who pressure their people into war, Jehovah, our Creator, will tell his people just as he told his nation of Israel in the days of Jehoshaphat of Judah in the tenth century B.C.E.: You will not need to fight in this instance. Take your position, stand still and see the salvation of Jehovah in your behalf.”—2 Chronicles 20:17.

With the dark clouds of influence by Satan blown away, individuals from all nations will enjoy true peace and security earth wide. Then the following conditions foretold by Isaiah will have become a reality. “Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth. Former things shall no more be remembered nor shall they be called to mind.”—Isaiah 65:17, The New English Bible.
Thus, what took place at Pearl Harbor will no more be remembered in a painful way, nor will the victims of the atom bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki cry out “No More Hiroshimas!” Why? Because the following words of Isaiah’s prophecy will also be true of every person on earth: “He [God] will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”—Isaiah 2:4.  END QUOTE

*** ws15 5/15 p. 28 pars. 3-4 Questions From Readers ***
But who is “Gog and Magog” mentioned at Revelation 20:8? This name refers to all those who rebel against Jehovah and attack his people during the final test at the end of the 1,000 years. They will have the same hateful attitude as Gog of Magog, the nations that attack God’s people at the end of the great tribulation. And just like those nations that will be destroyed at Armageddon, Gog and Magog will also be destroyed. (Revelation 19:20, 21; 20:9) It seems appropriate, then, that all who rebel at the end of the 1,000 years be called “Gog and Magog.”
As serious students of the Bible, we are eager to find out who will become “the king of the north” in the near future. But no matter who leads the nations against God’s people, we are confident of two things: (1) Gog of Magog and his armies will be defeated and destroyed. (2) Our King, Jesus Christ, will save God’s people and bring them into a new world of peace and true security.—Revelation 7:14-17. END QUOTE

======

*** Bible Citations ***
(Revelation 20:9) And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them.

 

I think you read that wrong.  If someone encircled your home to draw you out into a fight or brawl, you don't necessarily have to come out. You might simply wait for the Police to come or your security people.

The scriptures show that fire will come down from heaven and consume them.  Means the heavenly forces will act again for the loyal ones, as in Jehoshaphat's  time and as at Armageddon.

Bold, underscoring and italics - mine


 

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29 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Answer for Shiwii

Rev 20:7  Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. 

Restored mankind will not be fighting each other, though.  They will not be learning war in the 1000-year reign.  But as the final test is placed on all perfected humans, some rebels will come forth.  The true nature of their hearts will be revealed and they will show their true colours. They will attack the ones who are loyal to the kingdom. The warriors/rebels will be in effect be fighting against God, like at Armageddon.  The warriors will be on one side, and Jehovah will fight for them the other side, his restored faithful people, who will be granted everlasting life after the final test.  Fire will come down from heaven and eat up these rebels.  (See quotes below)

 

29 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

I think you read that wrong.  If someone encircled your home to draw you out into a fight or brawl, you don't necessarily have to come out. You might simply wait for the Police to come or your security people.

The scriptures show that fire will come down from heaven and consume them.  Means the heavenly forces will act again for the loyal ones, as in Jehoshaphat's  time and as at Armageddon.

I can follow you on this thought, but first we need to address the position of the wt/gb/jws. As stated in this book, as well as other's sited, it is the position of the gb/wt/jws that only jws will survive Armageddon. This has been shown to be true from not only my examples but also from other's opinion here, such as Gone Away and JW Insider. So it isn't something I made up. 

 

Now I understand your point about you don't have to fight and can stay inside if one wishes.  My point is that these left are ONLY jws, as stated in the wt books/opinions of jws etc. So a very, VERY LARGE number of jws WILL be preparing for war against those who as you say "stay inside and wait for authorities", which as pointed out by the publications are also jws. So in a sense, jws will be preparing to go to war with other jws.  If that's all that's left, then there is no other option. 

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58 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

such as Gone Away and JW Insider.

Just a little clarification here. There are Jehovah's Witnesses and Jehovah's witnesses.

One group are members of a religious organisation  existing in this early part of the 21st Century.

The other group consists of humans who will witness (literally) the saving hand of Jehovah through a cataclysmic demonstration of his power in destroying a wicked and Satanic system of things at a time of His chosing. 

Membership of both groups is not mutually inclusive.

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I won’t post copyright material since the Watchtower hasn’t given me permission to post them unto a discussion forum. However, I will direct those interested to JW.org. But how can anyone that understands scripture possibly think that anyone would come to life after the 1000 year has ended? This makes no sense.

If people are to experience all that God promises and Jesus offered, all this would have to be completed before the 1000 years. Scripture doesn’t support anything else.

Other religions do make claims that go beyond scripture. They go to extremes to add to it, which is offensive to God. So, of course, witnesses should find themselves comparing scriptural interpretation. The best direction is to compare scripture as the first century Christians did through Christ. This is what the Watchtower set out to do and its purpose.

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16 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Just a little clarification here. There are Jehovah's Witnesses and Jehovah's witnesses.

One group are members of a religious organisation  existing in this early part of the 21st Century.

The other group consists of humans who will witness (literally) the saving hand of Jehovah through a cataclysmic demonstration of his power in destroying a wicked and Satanic system of things at a time of His chosing. 

Membership of both groups is not mutually inclusive.

This is pure semantics.   The point is that the context of the wt literature speaks of only those who belong to their idea of "jehovah's org", you know this as well. 

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8 hours ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

I won’t post copyright material since the Watchtower hasn’t given me permission to post them unto a discussion forum. However, I will direct those interested to JW.org. But how can anyone that understands scripture possibly think that anyone would come to life after the 1000 year has ended? This makes no sense.

If people are to experience all that God promises and Jesus offered, all this would have to be completed before the 1000 years. Scripture doesn’t support anything else.

Other religions do make claims that go beyond scripture. They go to extremes to add to it, which is offensive to God. So, of course, witnesses should find themselves comparing scriptural interpretation. The best direction is to compare scripture as the first century Christians did through Christ. This is what the Watchtower set out to do and its purpose.

I've quoted literature from your jw.org, and it still says the same thing. They believe that only those who are part of their org will be alive after Armageddon. . 

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Copyright Law allows for the posting of copyrighted material for intellectual analysis and debate ..... also for lampooning or satire.

What the WTB&TS does not approve of is that in many cases intellectual analysis naturally leads to lampooning and satire.

 

Lett on Gravity, Electricity, wind .mp42 CHAIR pORNEA .mp4

Caleb and Sophia Dolls for Tony .jpg

It's sorta like having a crazy Grandmother, that you wish would stay in the basement.

You owe her your life ... you love her .... and you appreciate being alive because of her ... but you want to hide her when Company comes to visit and she does a striptease on the living room coffee table.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

I won’t post copyright material since the Watchtower hasn’t given me permission to post them unto a discussion forum. However, I will direct those interested to JW.org. But how can anyone that understands scripture possibly think that anyone would come to life after the 1000 year has ended? This makes no sense.

If people are to experience all that God promises and Jesus offered, all this would have to be completed before the 1000 years. Scripture doesn’t support anything else.

Other religions do make claims that go beyond scripture. They go to extremes to add to it, which is offensive to God. So, of course, witnesses should find themselves comparing scriptural interpretation. The best direction is to compare scripture as the first century Christians did through Christ. This is what the Watchtower set out to do and its purpose.

I think the JW teaching was that to 'come to life after the 1000 year' meant that before the final testing people would not definitely have eternal life. So the 'coming to life' didn't mean literally becoming alive, it meant that at that time they would receive everlasting life. 

Those of the heavenly calling 'came to life' when they were resurrected as spirit persons. Or will when they are 'called'. It seems that they do not have another testing but receive everlasting spirit life upon resurrection. 

 

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    • Claud's Lst  »  misette

      Bonjour Misette comment ça va. Merci beaucoup pour ton travail que tu as fait et continue de faire. 
      Nous avons pas reçu le joyau pour cette semaine, dis nous si il y a un problème. 
      Merci que Jéhovah continue de te benir. 
      · 2 replies
    • Isabella

      Good ideas 
       

      · 0 replies
    • 4Jah2me  »  Srecko Sostar

      Hi Srecko. I hope you can see this photo. This is my daily driving car. It is outside a Dance Studio where  I have danced and hope to go dancing again, John 

      · 2 replies
    • Tennyson  »  Queen Esther

      Hello my sister, i have not head from you long sice. I hope you are wel. Hope to hear from you soon. Agape.
      · 0 replies
    • Doryseeker  »  4Jah2me

      *** it-2 p. 7 Jehovah ***
      The Codex Leningrad B 19A, of the 11th century C.E., vowel points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwahʹ, Yehwihʹ, and Yeho·wahʹ. Ginsburg’s edition of the Masoretic text vowel points the divine name to read Yeho·wahʹ. (Ge 3:14, ftn) Hebrew scholars generally favor “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation. They point out that the abbreviated form of the name is Yah (Jah in the Latinized form), as at Psalm 89:8 and in the expression Ha·lelu-Yahʹ (meaning “Praise Jah, you people!”). (Ps 104:35; 150:1, 6) Also, the forms Yehohʹ, Yoh, Yah, and Yaʹhu, found in the Hebrew spelling of the names Jehoshaphat, Joshaphat, Shephatiah, and others, can all be derived from Yahweh. Greek transliterations of the name by early Christian writers point in a somewhat similar direction with spellings such as I·a·beʹ and I·a·ou·eʹ, which, as pronounced in Greek, resemble Yahweh. Still, there is by no means unanimity among scholars on the subject, some favoring yet other pronunciations, such as “Yahuwa,” “Yahuah,” or “Yehuah.”
      Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable, there seems to be no reason for abandoning in English the well-known form “Jehovah” in favor of some other suggested pronunciation. If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures: Jeremiah would be changed to Yir·meyahʹ, Isaiah would become Yeshaʽ·yaʹhu, and Jesus would be either Yehoh·shuʹaʽ (as in Hebrew) or I·e·sousʹ (as in Greek). The purpose of words is to transmit thoughts; in English the name Jehovah identifies the true God, transmitting this thought more satisfactorily today than any of the suggested substitutes.
      *** it-2 p. 7 Jehovah ***
      The Codex Leningrad B 19A, of the 11th century C.E., vowel points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwahʹ, Yehwihʹ, and Yeho·wahʹ. Ginsburg’s edition of the Masoretic text vowel points the divine name to read Yeho·wahʹ. (Ge 3:14, ftn) Hebrew scholars generally favor “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation. They point out that the abbreviated form of the name is Yah (Jah in the Latinized form), as at Psalm 89:8 and in the expression Ha·lelu-Yahʹ (meaning “Praise Jah, you people!”). (Ps 104:35; 150:1, 6) Also, the forms Yehohʹ, Yoh, Yah, and Yaʹhu, found in the Hebrew spelling of the names Jehoshaphat, Joshaphat, Shephatiah, and others, can all be derived from Yahweh. Greek transliterations of the name by early Christian writers point in a somewhat similar direction with spellings such as I·a·beʹ and I·a·ou·eʹ, which, as pronounced in Greek, resemble Yahweh. Still, there is by no means unanimity among scholars on the subject, some favoring yet other pronunciations, such as “Yahuwa,” “Yahuah,” or “Yehuah.”
      Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable, there seems to be no reason for abandoning in English the well-known form “Jehovah” in favor of some other suggested pronunciation. If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures: Jeremiah would be changed to Yir·meyahʹ, Isaiah would become Yeshaʽ·yaʹhu, and Jesus would be either Yehoh·shuʹaʽ (as in Hebrew) or I·e·sousʹ (as in Greek). The purpose of words is to transmit thoughts; in English the name Jehovah identifies the true God, transmitting this thought more satisfactorily today than any of the suggested substitutes.
       
      · 1 reply
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