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Can anyone explain this to me?: The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the 1,000 years were ENDED.


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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Isn't it believed by jw's that between your #3 sub points and your #4 is when God will sweep clean and destroy all who are not jw's at that time?

Yes. Some Witnesses would take that literally. But in the last couple of decades, there has been a toning down of the talk about who will be destroyed and who will survive. JWs expect to survive as a people, but there has been a lot more talk about Jehovah's justice and how we can't predict just how many others will survive, based upon their circumstances, age, mental capacity, opportunities to know about true Christianity, or even to know about Christianity in general. Witnesses rarely say they will be the only ones to survive Armageddon. We are not the judges. We don't know if thousands of other persons will survive, or millions, or even billions. Jonah, we recall, thought he was calling down destruction on the capital of a world empire, in effect, therefore, the entire world -- and for a while he was disappointed when Jehovah saved all the people he expected would die. 

From another perspective, #3 in that list was Armageddon, which we believe will be an obvious display of Jehovah's purposeful and selective judgments through his chosen King and Commander, Christ Jesus. This will not simply be a completely chaotic time of destruction. A scenario similar to the one Witnesses envision is that Gog/Magog will attack, and Jehovah will selectively protect the persons he wishes to protect.

Many persons will no doubt witness such spectacles of Jehovah's selective judgments, and realize they are not random, but purposeful. This would have to be interpreted as a true and spectacular judgment message from heaven. That means that, in effect, EVERYBODY who witnesses Jehovah's judgments will now be one of Jehovah's witnesses at this point, even prior to the spectacular and miraculous resurrection of persons brought back from just recently and long ago, with their memories intact. The newly resurrected, too, therefore, become witnesses of Jehovah's judgments, power, purpose. 

You will have to ask other Witnesses if they anticipate God's judgments working out differently. For me, this is a personal opinion but it can still fit the range of variations possible from current Witness teachings. It might have been difficult to allow for such variation even 25 years ago.

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Yes. Some Witnesses would take that literally. But in the last couple of decades, there has been a toning down of the talk about who will be destroyed and who will survive. JWs expect to survive as a

The previous answers have much merit. It can also be summed up like this: (Genesis 18:25-28) . . .It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with th

Your answer: I certainly don't claim to understand everything about Russell's ideology. I'm actually not even insisting that he erred in judgment. He may very well be right when he claimed that

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The previous answers have much merit. It can also be summed up like this:

(Genesis 18:25-28) . . .It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?” 26 Then Jehovah said: “If I find in Sodʹom 50 righteous men in the city, I will pardon the whole place for their sake.” 27 But Abraham again responded: “Please, here I have presumed to speak to Jehovah, whereas I am dust and ashes. 28 Suppose the 50 righteous should lack five. Because of the five will you destroy the whole city?” To this he said: “I will not destroy it if I find there 45.”

We can safely leave the details and final decisions  about certain groups to Jehovah.  We must not presume to speak for him above what he has already said.  He will always do what is right. Every detail cannot be written down (John 21:25), but generally all the guidelines are clear (Ps 11:4-7; Ps 15:1-7).

(Isaiah 55:9) . . .For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Deuteronomy 32:4)  4 The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he.

(Malachi 3:6) “For I am Jehovah; I do not change. And you are sons of Jacob; you have not yet come to your finish.
 

 


 


 

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22 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

Oh! I think we can expand on this to mean a more forceful literal decision that is placed upon humanity, of their choosing.

I'm sure you are correct. And speaking of the time near Armageddon as a literal decision point might be very appropriate, too. But none of us knows exactly when that final decision point would be for those who do not yet know better. Jesus is given authority to judge the heart, and we might wonder why Jesus said what he did about those in Sodom. (See the comment about Abraham and Sodom from @Melinda Mills.) He said that if those persons in Sodom had seen the miraculous signs that Jesus was then giving persons the opportunity to see, that those men in Sodom would have repented. Jesus was here claiming that he could judge the heart condition of the men of Sodom. Why?

Around Armageddon, which could be a literal time for that final "decision point" we envision that there will be clear signs from heaven. Will any persons at this time, who see these signs from heaven, have a heart condition like those persons in Sodom, who would have repented? Does this have any meaning to the one who judges the hearts? The same could go for the billions of unrighteous who are expected to be resurrected. Our teaching about them says that many of these will be kept around and remain alive for 1,000 more years and then finally destroyed at the end of that 1,000 years. But won't many of these billions of unrighteous persons see the obvious signs from heaven that are transforming the earth during this time?

If a person sees this and still doesn't want it, their heart condition is clear. Many persons, we expect, will be so steeped in their wicked lifestyle at Armageddon that they will prove their inability to repent and deserve a judgment of eternal death. They receive this judgment because Jehovah and Jesus, righteous judges who can read the heart, will make that judgment -- knowing in advance how they would react even if offered an opportunity for 1,000 years of signs from heaven. But some of the billions who are resurrected will be allowed to stick around for up to 1,000 years, even though it is therefore clear that they too could have been judged again almost immediately upon resurrection, long before they get destroyed at the end of the 1,000 years. If our view of the 1,000 years is right, there is some other reason that they are treated differently or even judged by a somewhat different set of criteria. This is not something for us to worry about now. Just as it is not something for us to try to judge in place of Jehovah.

Historically, C.T.Russell envisioned all the millions or even billions of Christians going to heaven, and only 144,000 of them chosen to be Christ's bride. But he also expected about 20 billion "worldly" non-Christians to stay on earth through resurrection or survival where, over the years, they would be transformed into perfect subjects of God's kingdom. Russell, as you know, sometimes said things that made people believe he supported nearly a "universal salvation."

Rutherford, too, as part of the argument for "Millions" of "worldly" people then living being able to survive Armageddon into God's new world, also saw post-Armageddon as a time of transforming the minds of billions of persons who would see these signs from heaven and repent. Rutherford, in the "Millions" campaign, argued that a person could hardly be expected to want to go back to their "worldly" wicked ways once he has seen this transformation to paradise in the Millennium.

Even with the scriptures you quoted, we don't know the final time when you could say of these persons, "but that is what some of you were." It's also clear that many have already had opportunity to transform their lives based on knowledge of God and Christ and have already had opportunity to present themselves as either "sheep" or "goats."

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But some of the billions who are resurrected will be allowed to stick around for up to 1,000 years, even though it is therefore clear that they too could have been judged again almost immediately upon resurrection, long before they get destroyed at the end of the 1,000 years. If our view of the 1,000 years is right, there is some other reason that they are treated differently or even judged by a somewhat different set of criteria. This is not something for us to worry about now. Just as it is not something for us to try to judge in place of Jehovah.

My understanding from reading the Bible and Bible publications provided is that those who do not cooperate with the Kingdom government after Armageddon (resurrected ones) will be cut off. If they reach the end of the 1000-year reign it is believed that they would have been healed by the King-Priest  and his 144000 associate king-priests and have become perfect.  They would be destroyed only if they fail the final test. (Rev 20)  

Righteous ones (survivors and those who get a resurrection to life) will most likely continue to be righteous in an environment free of Satan's influence if they did so in the former life with him around.  But they will have to be tested after attaining to perfection. 

See scriptures below, and comment on how they relate to your statement above.

"(Isaiah 26:10) Even if the wicked is shown favor, He will not learn righteousness. Even in the land of uprightness he will act wickedly, And he will not see the majesty of Jehovah."                     

(Resurrected unrighteous ones would be given the opportunity in the new system to see the majesty of Jehovah - those not seeing will have proved to be wicked and will disappear from the earth)

"(Isaiah 65:20) “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days, Nor an old man who fails to live out his days. For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy, And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age. "                            

(No one will be disadvantaged by hunger, sickness, deformity, disease, short life span, etc.  Will live healthy lives and afforded ample time (lifespan) and opportunity to learn about Jehovah and will be expected to transform their lives according to Jehovah's will (see the eminence of Jehovah's way of doing things).  Those  who continue to love sin, will be cursed/cut off.

This sabbath period of 1000 years will be for learning about Jehovah (scrolls opened) not the practising of sin.  All the scriptures mentioned by AllenSmith pertain to things people choose to do.   So I don't believe there will be any big group of people sailing along and enjoying the Paradise and not acting in harmony with the expectation for them, after they are taught. I believe they will be taken out of the earth, once they get ample knowledge of Jehovah's requirements.   

Choosing was always connected with  getting God's approval.  As we learned in our meeting this week, Jehovah draws us but he doesn't force us.  Deut 30:19,20.  All will have to show whether they are on Jehovah's side by their choices.

Why all who survive to the end of the thousand years will have to be tested:  What the final test will do for those who have been obedient up to the end of the the 1000 years will be to test their fitness for Jehovah granting them eternal life after Jesus would have healed and uplifted them.   Adam had that test while perfect and he failed it; all perfected people then would also have that test.  Satan would be used to test their motive for serving Jehovah.  (On every occasion where we invite people to enjoy themselves, there are always those who come along for the food and the entertainment, not really out of appreciation for the host.  Even in Jesus' time on the earth when large crowds were following him and he fed them, his disciples wanted to understand what he was saying but lots of people were satisfied with the literal bread, and also the cures,  and he detected it, and he told them so. They were not interested in spiritual things. ) Also Jehovah would want to ensure that peace and security would be permanent in the earth. He will eliminate those whose heart is not complete toward Him and who might possibly cause danger in the future. Satan would see to it that any rebellious tendency dormant in their hearts is shown up. 

 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

He said that if those persons in Sodom had seen the miraculous signs that Jesus was then giving persons the opportunity to see, that those men in Sodom would have repented. Jesus was here claiming that he could judge the heart condition of the men of Sodom. Why?

Even this statement bears out the fact that people will be expected to act now and in the future paradise.

 

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1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

I am unaware I was giving any timeline for the discussion.

True, I only meant that if you agree we are are now living in a time near Armageddon that your statements would apply at a time near Armageddon. Not intending to read into it anything more specific, but wondering just how close to Armageddon your words might still apply (for some).

1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

C.T. Russell’s first inclination was only the 144, 000 would inherit the heavenly kingdom of God.

The "great crowd which no man was able to number" were to become "spirit creatures" in heaven. The 144,000 were "more than conquerors" but the "great crowd" (great multitude) were also conquerors, yet unworthy to become "more than conquerors." Page 297 of "What Pastor Russell said" includes the question and his answer:

  • Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the spirit plane? Answer -- Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling. They do not make their calling and election sure, but not being worthy of second death, they therefore receive life on the spirit plane."

I don't know how we would know Russell's "first inclination" even if you are right. One of the very first issues of the Watch Tower that Russell published included the following, in November 1880, p.4 (R156):

  • As the exemption from the seven last plagues in Goshen preceded the final deliverance from Egypt, so it seems that the "sea of glass" condition which is "mingled with fire" precedes the final entering of the temple in heaven of this "great multitude" of victors.

And one of the last issues of the Watch Tower that he published, February 1916, page 75-76 states virtually the same thing.

  • Here, then, we see the difference between two classes in the Church, all of whom are spirit-begotten, all of whom are called with the same High Calling . . . But although they cannot be recognized as the Bride class, we praise God for His mercy in indicating that they all belong to the company of virgins, the Bride's companions who follow after her. . . . The water of life which Jesus will give the second class will be everlasting life on the spirit plane like unto the angels. . . .

Rutherford repeated this same position about the "great crowd" (great multitude; great company) going to heaven up until at least 1932.

 
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51 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

My understanding from reading the Bible and Bible publications provided is that those who do not cooperate with the Kingdom government after Armageddon (resurrected ones) will be cut off. If they reach the end of the 1000-year reign

Yes. This is right. This is why I said "some" would remain until the end of the thousand years before being destroyed.

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1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

However, you must be referring to the account of Noah and the flood, where people did have time to reform and repent before judgement would come upon them.

No. I was referring to what Melinda quoted about Abraham and Sodom, and what Jesus said about how the men of Sodom "would" have repented if they had seen the types of works/signs that Jesus gave to some in the first century.

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Around Armageddon, which could be a literal time for that final "decision point" we envision that there will be clear signs from heaven. Will any persons at this time, who see these signs from heaven, have a heart condition like those persons in Sodom, who would have repented?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling I read somewhere in our publications (not too long ago) that it will be too late for those at Armageddon to repent.  There are plenty of scriptures that make it clear that only those who put faith in Jesus will be saved....but I don't think there is anything that puts a time frame on it.  Also it might be easy for those who live in Christian countries to put faith in Jesus at the last minute, but what about those in non Christian countries, who don't know much about Jesus or the requirement for salvation. So it would make sense that judging those might involve the reading of hearts, especially considering that there are nearly over 3 billion of such people.  In that case why does WT make that statement about it being too late? What of those over 3 billion people, does the org. believe we will reach all those people before Armageddon, I doubt it.  (I know this has been discussed in a topic here somewhere before, I think I might have I even created that topic)

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7 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

As for Pastor Russell’s beginning research into Bible Truth. He started from scratch to willfully understand scripture as God intended. . . . Therefore, Russell’s first thoughts were apparent.

Yes, I agree that Russell's first thoughts were apparent. Which is why Russell made it clear from the start that he believed not just the 144,000 would be anointed and go to heaven but that the great crowd would also be anointed and go to heaven. (Although of a less worthy class.)

The book you are quoting, above is Divine Plan of the Ages, also known as "Studies in the Scriptures" (or Millennial Dawn), volume 1. That book also shows that Russell believed the "great crowd" would go to heaven. Quoting from page 214:

  • They will have everlasting, spirit life as angels have it, . . . . They will serve God in his temple, and stand before the throne, having palms in their hands (Rev. 7:9-17); but though that will be glorious, it will not be so glorious as the position of the "little flock" of overcomers, who will be kings and priests unto God, seated with Jesus in the throne as his bride and joint-heir . . .
7 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

I believe I have been quite clear

I'm not sure why you keep insisting on this particular point about Russell's supposed "initial thinking" that only the 144,000 would go to heaven. It is clearly not true, and I'm sure you saw the evidence from what Russell himself said. And now you are quoting another of his books, "SiS V.1," and hinting that this unrelated quote has some relevance to that question. But "SiS V.1" is just another book that shows that Russell was consistent. But I don't get why it's so important to you anyway. If Russell's "initial thinking" was right, and he later changed it to something wrong, then how does this prove that "God gradually opened up his truth," which you also quoted above.  At any rate, Russell was consistent on this point, as far as I can tell.

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Some interesting points from Anna and JWI. Just commenting on clear signs - JWI - and it being too late for those at Armageddon to repent - Anna.

By allowing the preaching to continue Jehovah is allowing people to learn, repent and convert.  Even with a non-Christian nation, the Ninevites, he gave them time to repent, even if it was only 40 days. All nations are accountable to God - non-Christian or not.

The signs from heaven will be clear - including literal celestial phenomena - as Jehovah won't let us be mistaken that it is He who will bring the destruction. (The world powers also have hideous weapons that could also produce some celestial phenomena.) But the Revelation shows that people will say to the mountains and rock-masses to cover them and hide them - nothing stated about their repentance there, but continued looking to earthly sources to protect them, which is idolatry. 

(Revelation 6:14-17) 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Note it says all categories of people  - from the elite to the ordinary people , depicted by high officials to slaves -  will understand that the destruction is the result of the anger of the Lamb, Christ Jesus,  authorized by the One seated on the throne, Jehovah God.

*** w99 12/1 p. 17 pars. 11-12 Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation ***
11 Joyful submission to Jehovah’s sovereignty is the basis for happiness on a personal level and on a universal level. Soon a symbolic great earthquake will shake Satan’s world system to its very foundations and destroy it. There will be no place of refuge for humans who refuse to submit to Christ’s heavenly Kingdom government, representing God’s legitimate domination. The prophecy states: “The kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: ‘Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?’”—Revelation 6:12, 15-17.
12 With regard to that question, in the next chapter, the apostle John describes those making up the great crowd, who come out of the great tribulation, as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:9, 14, 15) Their standing before the throne of God shows that they recognize that throne and fully submit to Jehovah’s sovereignty. They therefore stand approved.

*** re chap. 18 pp. 112-113 Earthquakes in the Lord’s Day ***
“Fall Over Us and Hide Us”
26 John’s words continue: “And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: ‘Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?’”—Revelation 6:15-17.
...
29 Now, the opening of the sixth seal has shown that something similar will happen during the coming day of Jehovah’s wrath. At the final shaking of this earthly system of things, those committed to supporting it will desperately seek for a hiding place, but they will not find one. False religion, Babylon the Great, has already failed them miserably. Neither caves in the literal mountains nor symbolic mountainlike political and commercial organizations will provide financial security or any other kind of help. Nothing will shelter them from Jehovah’s wrath. Their terror is well described by Jesus: “Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”—Matthew 24:30.
30 Yes, those who have refused to recognize the authority of the victorious Rider of the white horse will be forced to admit their error. Humans who have willingly been part of the seed of the serpent will be faced with destruction when Satan’s world passes away. (Genesis 3:15; 1 John 2:17) The world situation at that time will be such that many will, in effect, ask: “Who is able to stand?” They will apparently assume that no one at all can stand approved before Jehovah in that day of his judgment. But they will be wrong, as the book of Revelation goes on to show. END QUOTE

 

[The scriptures do inform us to seek Jehovah before God's fear-inspiring day. (Zephaniah 2:3). But we leave final decisions to the Righteous Judge, the God of all the earth, as to those who are in the middle of converting their lives.

Sodom and Gomorrah: These cities were thoroughly corrupt (they even sought to introduce unnatural sex to the angels) and the destruction came suddenly and Lot and his family were moved immediately to safety by the angels before the destruction overtook them.   We have to learn from what happened to the wife of Lot. Lot's wife left the city physically but her heart was still with the materialistic, corrupt society she was living among. So the angels changed her into a pillar of salt. Those angels could read hearts. (For example, when Sarah doubted the angel and laughed about pregnancy in her old age, he asked her why she laughed, but she had not done it audibly, and when she denied doing so, he said "But you did laugh".) Jesus, the 144,000 and other angels coming with him will also be able to read hearts, and that will make it easy for them to be selective in carrying out the execution of people. (Rev 17:14: 19:14)

Whether these people in Sodom and Gomorrah are in Hades or Gehenna is not clear - we had  some revisions in the publications on that subject. I cannot remember any conclusive comment about it.  Jehovah will do or have done the right thing regarding them. But they and the people in Noah's day are placed before us as a warning of what happens to ungodly people in the future -  2 Peter 2:4-10. We are living in a parallel period now with all types of moral wrongs being sanctioned by various governments and peoples.]

 

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But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup."  It therefore follows, that every one of those who undertake to promote the good of their neighbours, ought to consider whether he has betaken himself to teaching rashly and out of rivalry to any; if his communication of the word is out of vainglory; if the the only reward he reaps is the salvation of those who hear, and if he speaks not in order to win favour: if so, he who speaks by writings escapes the reproach of mercenary motives. "For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know," says the apostle, "nor a cloak of covetousness. God is witness. Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome as the apostles of Christ. But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children."   (from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 2) Divine promises 2. The manner of shunning, in the word escaping. There is a flying away required, and that quickly, as in the plague, or from a fire which hath almost burned us, or a flood that breaketh in upon us. We cannot soon enough escape from sin (Matt 3:7; Heb 6:18). No motion but flight becomes us in this case. Doctrine: That the great end and effect of the promises of the gospel is to make us partakers of the Divine nature. (from The Biblical Illustrator)  
    • Clearly, they are already demanding your exile. Yes! It's unfortunate that Pudgy spoiled a great discussion about science. I hope the discussion can continue without any more nonsensical interruptions. Just a suggestion since they are on your heels. Wow! You speak! It seems you have a lot to say! Now they are going to treat like, who do you think you are, mister big stuff! Are those aliens now going to imply that anyone who speaks out against the five or six key contributors to this site will be treated as though it is George just because those in opposition speak the language they hate to hear, the TRUTH? They are seeking individuals who will embrace their nonconformist values and appreciate what they can offer in shaping public opinion contrary to the established agenda of God and Christ. Their goal is to enhance their writing abilities and avoid squandering time on frivolous pursuits, mainly arguing about the truth they don't care for. They see it all as a mere game, even when leading people astray. They believe they have every right to and will face no biblical repercussions, or so they believe. They just want to have fun just like that Cyndi Lauper song. Be prepared to be belittled and ridiculed, all the while they claim to be angels. Haha! By the way, please refrain from using the same language as George. They appear to believe that when others use the same words, it means they are the same person, and they emphasize this as if no one else is allowed to use similar grammar. It seems they think only they have the right to use the same or similar writing styles. Quite amusing, isn't it? See, what I just placed in bold, now I'm George, lol! Now, let's leave this nice science thread for people that want to know more about science. I believe George left it at "Zero Distance."  
    • Nice little thread you’ve got going here, SciTech. It would be a shame if something were to happen to it.
    • It's truly disheartening when someone who is supposed to be a friend of the exclusive group resorts to using profanity in their comments, just like other members claiming to be witnesses. It's quite a ludicrous situation for the public to witness.  Yet, the "defense" of such a person, continues. 
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      merci pour ton travail très utile. tu es une aide qui fortifie
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      2024"Enter Into God's Rest" Circuit Assembly! 
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      Hello Twyla, when will the weekly study material be available. I am a member.
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