Shiwiii

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

The Him in this scripture is Jesus, agreed? 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

The accent here is he created it 'for him'.

The part you cannot reconcile is: all things were made by Jesus and not one......not one......not one thing that has been made was made without Him.  You either believe that Jesus created Himself, or you believe something other then what the Bible says. Its clear as day and the writers of the jw bible know this, but still decided to insert "other" in Colossians 1. 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

I increase the font for those who have vision problems.

I call bs on that one SOS! otherwise you would have always written that way. Nice try though. 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

If Jesus is GOD than the Sacrifice is INVALID

says who? you?

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Verse states that all things were Created For Him. By Whom Were They Created?

you must have missed John 1:3, you and Arauna both seem to forget that verse. 

First off, typing with larger letters doesn't make your statements true, nor does it intimidate anyone.

5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

NO Bible Verse names Jesus as the Creator

John 1:3 does 

" All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

and so does Colossians 1:16

" For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

When the Bible says that all things, not most things but ALL things, were created by Jesus, then I have to believe the Bible and not you.

5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The angels who were all created by God with Michael's assistance

not a single scripture backs this claim you make of Michael. 

5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus was CREATED by God,that is why he is called Firstborn and the only begotten.Then God used Jesus as a HELPER to create everything else. 

This statement is in direct opposition to John 1:3. 

5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jehovah's Witnesses

They Were Foretold to be a name people to Him at Isaiah 43:10 

So then you must not belong to Jesus as scripture says one must be

Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

Galatians 3:24 " Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith." 

Lead us to whom? Jehovah? or Jesus?  its really a trick question......

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Isaiah 9:6 is a prophesy foretelling Jesus

agreed. 

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus did not become an Eternal Father until after his unjust death as a Perfect Man as a corresponding atonement for Adams Perfect Life Blood.

Do you know that the word for eternal in hebrew means without end, but also without beginning? It was understood that the Messiah was always in existence, always. It was only the anticipation of the coming of the Messiah that was referenced with time. 

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Revelation 3:14“To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

The word arche does not always mean beginning as you and other think. It also means the origin or the source. Supporting scripture for this is found in John 1:3

" All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

So all things were created by Jesus and not one thing that has been created was created without Jesus. Plain, simple and straight forward, even by means of Greek definition. 

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

You disagree with the inspired word of GOD?

Acts 19:26 "You see and hear that not only in Ephesus, but in almost all of [a]Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable number of people, saying that gods made with hands are no gods at all."

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

John 1:1 speaks of 2 gods.

nope, that is a man made idea to lessen the significance of Jesus to fit the jw (insert whatever religion believes this as well) narrative. Even scripture speaks that men will come and do this exact thing. Matt 24:5, Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

I made a mistake here, GOD & LORD replaced YHWH. Whereas "God" was used in some verses for either YHWH or YESHUA. Whereas "god" is applied toward the Word Jesus, Satan and mighty men but never YHWH. 

 But it is with context and the ancient manuscripts that we can learn what is exactly written. If one does not do their OWN research and instead relies on others to spoon feed them, then you get people like Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite. 

On 1/3/2020 at 5:13 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

This verse foretells Jesus, who would become the father of mankind as he repurchases them with his perfect life blood, however 

I'm not going to quote all of your regurgitated wt propaganda, but this first statement I believe is yours so I'll go there. 

Are you suggesting that eternal has a beginning?  I mean if Jesus is the Eternal Father as stated in Isiah 9, which was written before He came to Earth, and you say that he became eternal; when was this beginning? 

On 1/4/2020 at 4:59 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. 

this scripture tells the story. There is no god other then Himself. What is called god or gods are NOT. There is only one. no lessor or demigods or the like. Just like money or power or whatever people choose to worship, it is a symbolic "god" to them, but there is no other god. 

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

recognize lessor gods like Jesus. Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1,2 Corinthians 4:4

Can you please point out where in this passage it says "lessor" or inferior to, and what the words "Eternal Father" means:

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

How do you reconcile the belief in other, "lessor" gods if God Himself stated in Isiah 43:10 states that none were formed before Him and none after? If you are using the word god flippantly then all of us are gods just like the Mormon's believe. That then, puts you and Jesus on the same level. I highly doubt you think that, but maybe......? 

 “You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Thanks for this, Shiwiii.  I looked up Rev 7:14,15 myself in WT's Interlinear and then went to Strong's 3485 for the meaning of the word, "ναῷ":

naós (from naiō, "to dwell") – properly, a sanctuary (divine dwelling-place); a temple (sacred abode), the place of divine manifestation. 3485 (naós) refers to the sanctuary (the Jewish Temple proper), i.e. with just its two inner compartments (rooms). 

It proves not only that the anointed are the "dwelling"/"divine habitation" of God's Spirit, (1 Cor 3:16,17), the "temple"/"divine habitation" of 2 Cor 6:16, and the mobile "tabernacle"/"sanctuary"/"tent, booth, dwelling" of God's Spirit, that is blasphemed by the Beast/organization in Rev 13:6,7.  (STRONGS NT 4633: σκηνή)

 

 

not only this but Divine Habitation is where the great crowd is according to Revelation 7:15. "in His temple" 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Do you remember the subject  we were talking about?  If I remember correctly, you yourself quoted a scripture which showed that there is a replica in heaven of the earthly sanctuary in Israel's time and you quoted the scripture which says that  "flesh" is a barrier (curtain) to the heavenly sanctuary.  

no, I quoted the wt. 

You still haven't answered the question. What does the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures say about the word sanctuary? 

15 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jehovah's Witnesses worship the One Almighty God Jehovah. 

According to the Bible there are other gods, written with a small "g" denoting lessor than the Almighty. See 2 Corinthians 4:4 and John 1:1

 

so again, do you have more then one God? 

On 12/26/2019 at 4:38 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus is a god according to John 1:1 a lessor god, meaning he is a mighty one, as many men consider themselves a god.

You state this right after you quote Exodus 20? Which is it? Do jw's have more then one God or not? 

On 12/25/2019 at 8:22 AM, the Sower of Seed said:

Exodus 20: You must not have any other gods besides me. 4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.

Seems pretty simple according to Exodus, there IS NO OTHER gods. Not a lessor or small g or ANY other God. 

Please explain how jws can have another "little g" god and not be in violation of Exodus 20? 

On 12/24/2019 at 2:21 PM, Arauna said:

These people on earth are NOT priests who already have received immortality and incorruptability

So did you look up what it says in the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures about the word sanctuary? 

On 12/24/2019 at 2:21 PM, Arauna said:

If if people of other religions assist me I do not treat them suspiciously  - that was the point.

They provided NO assistance, contrary to what you may believe. They were there making sure no blood was used by means of comments. Spin that however you want. 

On 12/24/2019 at 2:21 PM, Arauna said:

Exactly!  They will be priests in heaven! Not on earth! The flesh was the barrier

Doesn't Rev 7:9 speak of these same people? This is confirmed by rev 7:13&14. 

Did you happen to look up what the word sanctuary means in the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures?

what does it say? 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I am not a weakling, I stand on my own two feet. However, I appreciate it when someone shows me a kindness and gives help. I am not  suspicious of  kind acts just because people  are JW or not of my faith.

you are totally missing the point, but that is because you see it as just support. 

On 12/21/2019 at 1:26 PM, Arauna said:

Before the throne is on earth......

Insight on the Scriptures Volume 2 p.1081- "The curtain was a barrier separating the Holy from the Most Holy; in Jesus’ case it represented “his flesh,” which he had to lay down in sacrifice, giving it up forever, to be able to enter heaven, the antitypical Most Holy. Anointed Christians must also pass the fleshly barrier that separates them from access to God’s presence in heaven. Consistently, the Holy represents their condition as spirit-begotten sons of God, with heavenly life in view, and they will attain to that heavenly reward when their fleshly bodies are laid aside in death."

The Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures, says the sanctuary= divine habitation.

Rev.7:15  For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

(DIVINE HABITATION- Kingdom Interlinear)

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

You saw it as the FBI coming to spy and check up on you..... it is your own perception it seems. Therefore the resentment..... 

your speculation is just that, yours.

My experiences out weigh your speculation. Maybe you haven't had the same experience. Maybe you enjoy those people looking over your shoulder and nudging you to do what they want. Or maybe you just don't see it yet. Doesn't really matter, what does matter is that I am speaking from experience. That is something you can listen to, or stick your fingers in your ears and yell "la,la,la,la". 

On 12/20/2019 at 10:41 AM, Arauna said:

So explain your personal experience in this matter which contradicts mine.

does it really matter to you what the experience is? Would it change your mind? 

no, and no are the answers, so it is a bit pointless to discuss it with you. 

in a nutshell, the two jw guys had to be present and hovering anytime the doctor came in to discuss procedures and we had plenty of family there already, so their presence was not needed. 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

When my daughter had her cancer operation I had a couple sit with me.  I explained my stance to the doctor myself.  I had no pressure. BUT  this emotion is in the eye of the beholder.... it says a lot about you. 

I sure hope it gives you the exact impression of my experience. I think it does, or you wouldn't be defending them by means of YOUR experience to try and downplay what I have had happen. 

Surgery is never easy and on your child it is even less so. So the similarities between our experiences seem to end there. 

20 hours ago, Arauna said:

They go to doctors and hospitals to explain our blood stance. 

Why cant the regular RnF do that for themselves?  is it perhaps because some wouldn't tell anyone? 

20 hours ago, Arauna said:

 They visit brothers in hospital awhen they are seriously ill.  They sit with you and support you during serious surgeries when you request assistance. 

commendable. 

20 hours ago, Arauna said:

 So the assumption above that they act as watchdogs is ludicrous...... it is assigning bad motives where there are none.

As I have said before, I've seen it FIRST HAND. So maybe not in your experience because they already got you to conform, but that doesn't make it so for others. 

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

You read into it motives which are not there.

you can believe that if you wish, but I have seen it first hand! 

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

If they did not help the brothers - then people like you would say they are wicked and do not have gods spirit and when they do appoint a committee to help - then they are controlling and watching brothers

what kind of help are you referring to? please explain this "help"

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

They will use this as the excuse..... not for the purpose of true justice

Wwwhhhaaaaaatttt? So CSA is not a purpose for justice? 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

The GB will carry the consequences even though they were not the perpetrators of the crimes or the elders in the congregation which could not determine guilt..... or negligence in congregation. 

as they should since they are the ones making the rules! 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is more prevalent in Islam than in catholic church and also the Jews BUT do you ever see anyone of these religions put it in the press? ....never a word in the press. 

do you not remember how the catholic priests were molesting kids and how it flooded the news in recent years? 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

we are wicked when we do not immediately condemn without enough proof and we are condemned when we shun...

we're talking about CSA right? So who are the jws to judge? nobody! So they should leave that up to the authorities to figure it out. The authorities won't be able to figure it out unless it gets reported, which ANY moral person would do. 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

I think they will turn against GB and confiscate all property.....

should have already happened and turned that money over to the victims! 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

then when we still preach ...

is sitting behind a trolley still called preaching? 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

We do hate sexual abuse but you are so totally critical that you do not recognize any efforts JWs have done

oh I recognize what jws have done.......NOTHING but cover it up as proven by the Australian Royal Commission as well as the San Diego Superior courts. 

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

So the " great crowd"  will learn all things by themselves?

Rev 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the ^[d]water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

They do not need an organized  place to attend meetings? ....

Nope

Matt 18: ²⁰ For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

When people serve jehovah from free will they will not need anyone to watch them like a watchdog.

Why the insistence on no beards? Not reporting CSA? The constant hounding for money? Judicial committees for reading unapproved material? Not getting enough hours? Not showing up to EVERY meeting? Suits and ties? No celebration of birthdays? Making sure you don't send your kids to college? The hospital liaison group, I mean if this isn't a watchdog I don't know what is! Constantly they are there to make sure you don't take blood. If it is free will, why are they there? 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I expect JWs to be so singled out by the world as the only organisation deserving of  the worst punishment

I do too Arauna, I do too, when more and more countries look into the CSA and see that the policies of the wt are flawed when it comes to protecting children. 

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

Your OCD  deceit and hate  is showing. .....

Hate? anything but! Just supporting your statement. 

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

One can only open someones eyes if they are really searching for the truth.  I apologize if I have become too skeptical about the motives of people who contribute on this forum.  There is enough evidence here to suggest that I may be correct. 

I completely agree. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink. 

No need to apologize, we all here have different ideas about what the wt is all about, and have all heard it before. 

Assumptions though, only work in your own mind. 

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Sorry if it hurts feelings but there are people here whom I have called out as having OCD because I already know what their answer will be. They revert back to same old answers and behaviour expecting different results.

I get exactly what you mean, kinda like these? 

"Families are free to report abuse to the authorities" 

"leave it in Jehova's hands"

"click on jw.orb"

"the answers are on the website"

"That's for Jehova to decide" 

"we don't shun former members" 

"we only had the library card"

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

No surprise because you have a negative opinion.... and I suspect a hate for all authority...in any shape or form

There you go with those pesky assumptions again.  I know this is what you are fed by those in power above you. "All who disagree with what the wt says, must be full of hate and malice towards jws. " It is the classic mantra of those who want to keep you under control.

"Do not look behind the curtain!" - the great Oz. 

I'll tell you what Arauna, if I were here to spread hate, there would be plenty more of it. The fact of the matter is that you and I are very similar, we both want to open each others eyes. 

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

You are not intelligent enough to comprehend real truth. 

That's just not true. 

I believe that the majority of people are very much capable, but give their reasoning over to others to decide for them, its easier that way for some.  

On 12/8/2019 at 7:14 AM, Arauna said:

No surprise there!

there really shouldn't be, especially if you read the whole sentence I wrote. Here, I'll save you the time from searching for it:

I find jw's foolish because they follow the ideas of men, which changes to suit those in the power tower. 

On 12/8/2019 at 7:14 AM, Arauna said:

in cases where we DO have sufficient evidence.

lol,   we......lol