TrueTomHarley

It's a bit heavy-handed, i admit. Maybe R.L. went down in flaming fire before @JW Insider hurled him out the door.  But the capitalized word softens it. It is always well to recognize the overall context. I don't think the context - not just sentences but paragraphs fore and aft - indicate Witnesses need feel strait-jacketed.

5 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

He, like myself, may have had a real problem ... with Caleb and Sophia.

OH NO! I just saw the latest release. Caleb and Sophia are surly teenagers now and they go to your house to beat you up! They have heard how you trash them.

20 minutes ago, Anna said:

"Some may feel that they can interpret the Bible on their own. However, Jesus has appointed the ‘faithful slave’ to be the only channel for dispensing spiritual food. Since 1919, the glorified Jesus Christ has been using that slave to HELP his followers understand God’s own Book and heed its directives. By obeying the instructions found in the Bible, we promote cleanness, peace, and unity in the congregation. Each one of us does well to ask himself, ‘Am I loyal to the channel that Jesus is using today?’

I have capitalized one word, which I think explains it all. Neither comments not thinking need be boiler-plate. See my previous post on this thread.

26 minutes ago, Anna said:

And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures; Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah, And you will find the knowledge of God".

Is this only the privilege of the Slave/GB or is it all of the anointed and by extension those who are associated with them, the great crowd?

Too many seem to think these two things are mutually exclusive - growing spiritually and following theocratic headship. I do not. 

Paul spoke somewhere about the pattern of the truth. Be around long enough and you pick up on the pattern. To say to headship: "you're all wet!" is not part of the pattern. There is no biblical precedent for it, beyond an individual yoyo or two like Naman that one must do end runs around. But muttering against theocratic headship on any significant scale is always associated with disaster.

Spiritual growth does not require you butt heads with it. It is better enabled if you do not. I comment frequently in my home congregation. I write a lot. I almost never give "the answer" from the paragraph. I have picked up on the pattern of the truth, and it is not necessary or even desired for a mature one to simply spit out what is in writing. 

Often I am surprised that where I go within the pattern, no one seems to have gone before. Sometimes I am surprised that they stick to what is (to me) dull and do not reach for things more subtle and interesting. Maybe I could set up my own "Institute of Deeper Understanding" but I don't. Others will catch on if it is worth catching. Or it may turn out that I am wrong - or just irrelevant and what intrigues me is just so much mental cabbage.

I am amazed at how many think it is necessary to walk in lockstep. It isn't. That said, I would never blow off as nothing counsel about obedience. Even counsel about hanging out verbally with unsavory ones I do not blow off - I would be much worse without it. 

30 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

Moses didn't intentionally wander for 40 years. Jehovah God sent them on that path so that the older generation would die off

Says who? Only he himself. People on this forum would waste no time concluding he was just covering his rear end - he had no idea what he was doing, so he kicked the can down the road 40 years. Maybe he was some sort of swami or something to do the cloud and fire trick, but after 40 years, it would get old with everyone here.

His leadership could easily have been disputed, even during the plagues. He was just in the right place at the right time, that's all. It would have happened in any case because  'all of Jehovah's people are holy.' Once he crossed the Red Sea, there were 40 years in which to get fed up with him. In fact, they got fed up with him within the month, cloud or no cloud. That is the lesson we ought to take away, I think, and see if we can avoid doing the same. 

At any rate, where else will you go? Srecko may be starting up something. hehehe :)))))))) But unless you want to join him, you may do best to get your head around the present routine to the extent you can. Where you can't, then don't. You don't have to, unless you enjoy privileges, in which case there are some things in which have to adhere more closely - the same as you would if you were the representative of any outfit.

People apply their full powers of critical thought to the present. But if they did it to the scriptural record, nothing would stand up. In fact there are people who do that and they have concluded that every other paragraph was written by someone new.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I am uncomfortable trying to peek between the curtains of the tabernacle into the Holy compartment

Why not, please explain

For the same reason I don't just waltz right in there. Had Moses been directed to put up a chain link fence instead of a curtain, I would feel differently

22 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

The GB has made missteps in direction that have negatively affected people.

Moses made so many missteps that if you trace his footsteps in the Sinai over 40 years, it looks like he was drunk.

Step away from whatever 'privileges' you have in the theocratic organization. Seriously. They are not a privilege to you. They are a burden. If you represent the organization in some capacity, say as an elder, than you do have to reign in some personal freedoms. You don't have to do it as a regular rank and file (and yes, for this post only I will allow the hierarchy model) publisher. You can just rediscover the joys of doing the basic ministry and serving God. Discover the joy of following rather than taking the lead. Help whoever you want to help, not just those you have to. Many theocratic activities are not 'instead of' -  they are 'in addition to.' Back off so that you can do the 'instead ofs.' You will be serving Jehovah from a different vantage point. So long as you do not act outrageously, setting up a literature cart with your own pamphlets at the Kingdom Hall, for example,  you will find that no one interferes. Grow a beard if you like - it will make less waves than if you try it as an elder. Both you and they will be happier.

You are chaffing over organizational things. Step back for a time. Sometimes servants who should do not want to because they have gotten too used to the idea that their own gifts and input is essential. I know what I speak of in this. Presumably, you love the basics - ministry, association, Bible study, prayer. Focus on them. In time you may work out whatever issues you have - for they are not ridiculous or groundless, just overemphasized in your head I think - and you can make yourself available again

Are they 'controlling?' Yeah, I know where you are coming from, but I would not view it that way. It is relative. From the world's point of view (anything goes) they are absolutely tyrannical. But if you weigh their conduct against the freedom of speech and independent thought commented upon in the scriptures, they are  within the ballpark. Some things are arguable - they could be tweaked this way or that. I'm not crazy about everything I see. But it may be that being 'taught by Jehovah' will entail things that are not the way I would do it. It is not as though everything I have done in my life has turned out brilliantly.

It is what it is. At any rate, I do not see any alternative other than that outfit Witness runs. Or be like JTR. Raise your loved ones as Jehovah's Witnesses and tell them 85% of it is crap. Good luck juggling that one.

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

We've all worked with someone that is dogmatic and micromanaging. It is frustrating

Exactly. Step away from that one. He will drive you nuts. Maybe he will be retrained someday, for they are trying to get him to not be such a yoyo. Maybe he himself will flame out or even be removed.  But he's gotten under your skin too much. Step away and you will recover in time. When you return you will have the tools to either put up with him or knock him out of the theocratic park,

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I hope you are not mocking

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I hope he is!

Actually, I just thought it was a good idea.

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

If everyone was truly equal, wouldn't we all be able to interpret the Bible for ourselves? That idea is actually discouraged in the organization.

If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If it were all hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has arranged each of the body members just as he pleased.  If they were all the same member, where would the body be? - 1 Corinthians 12:17-19

It is enough that Witnesses can entertain whatever notions they want on these periphery teachings - you are far too hung up on asserting they cannot. What they cannot to is grab hold of the wheel of the bus. Many verses speak to promoting sects and stirring up divisions.

This is not difficult and I cannot understand your harping on this. If you can't accept something, don't accept it. Nobody says you have to shout these things from the rooftops. It is increasingly hard not to take these complaints of yours as the complaints of Korah: 'that is enough of you because all of Jehovah's people are holy.'

People here are searching for the divine/human interface. It is perfectly okay to do if you assume there IS no divine/human interface - that it is all a matter of human politics. Just be honest about it. But if you concede there is one - I am uncomfortable trying to peek between the curtains of the tabernacle into the Holy compartment - which is why I don't go there. And it is not getting caught by the attendants of the priest or even the priest himself that worries me.

13 hours ago, Anna said:

But come on.......you have to give us at least some basic calculations for your deduction. Otherwise if you don't,  it doesn't count, and I'm going to ignore it. So there!

If you ignore it, lady - a plain and clearcut brilliant truth - it's not really my problem, is it? 

Let us toy with the number 2022 a bit and see what profound truths are revealed: 22 take away 20 is what? Two!! And what numeral is featured most often in the year 2022? Two again!!

How many times is it featured? Three! Here we see that this  flash of light even has the added advantage of separating the sheep from the goats. Those who accept it for the right reasons - three times for emphasis - enter the gates as a slam-dunk. Those who accept it for the wrong reason - it proves the trinity - are toast. 

I mean, no offense, @Anna, but  - Duh!

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

a system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority.

Well, we could always go to open mikes at the circuit assembly and let the rank and file, um, people who are there, come up and give their testimony.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

And as a side point, if someone brings up the overlapping generation I'm going to waive my hand dismissively like Br. Herd and go "pfft..."

Seriously, I think this is the key. If you can't do anything about it - and you cannot, nor could he, apparently - you ask yourself just how big of a deal-breaker you think that it is?

If the answer is that you can live with it, do so.

I am going to go out on a limb slightly.

2022!!!

Be Ready

only 1457 shopping days left for someone to buy your home.

11 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

So, what did we learn from the 1975 failure?

We learned not to do it again. Have you noticed any other years since ballyhooed as the big one?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not

I think they just don't want to find themselves saying something crucial and the sons-in-law of Lot think they are joking.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking.

I find it hard to quarrel about that (and am not saying that you do).

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

If you are gong to speculate on what the advice could look like, then speculate on some specific scenarios so people know what you are thinking.

I don't think they know themselves, going back to the verse that says they are but brothers and just one is the leader.

I think they look at the likelihood of ISIS walking the same beat with grenades that Officer O'Malihan once walked with his nightstick, and people donning genders as they once donned clothes, and they think the time of decision may soon arrive - best to be prepared.

36 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

he showed an earlier version of it with twice as many red marks and x's all over it, with notes in the margins, all from a big red marking pen, as if it were a school paper receiving and "F" that had to be redone almost from scratch if it were to pass even with a "D-minus"

Every day I write several pages for the World News Forum. My wife always cuts it down to a line or two.

37 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

was especially dramatic about how his own work got torn up because he just couldn't write without making dozens of logical, scriptural and doctrinal mistakes.

She says that's why she does it, too.

38 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

(He was one of the brothers who gave my wedding talk.) He was dismissed from Bethel about a year after he gave my wedding talk.

Why couldn't you have gotten married at the Justice of the Peace and spared this poor brother?

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

so, in late 1974, I "caved in", and quit my job in Zaire, the Congo, and flew back home to Virginia to be with my parents when the "end came". 

You should have stayed where you were. The end did come in 1975 but only in Zaire.

7 hours ago, Anna said:

The question has been raised on here, what was the purpose of bringing up 1975 again at the last (2017) convention, and then some theories as to why.

I think it is an attempt to put the issue to bed by people who are dumbfounded that their was of framing it is not as clear to everyone as it is to them.

Many comments from those disgruntles assume an us versus them mentality - the boss class dictating to the worker class. I honestly do not think they look at it that way. I honestly do not think it is that way. I think it is the way of Matthew 23:8-10:

But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. ...Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.  

They do not view themselves as leaders, but as fellow brothers who are taking the lead. There is a difference. The leader is Christ.

When they say "some brothers thought such-and-such" they mean themselves as much as any in the ranks. They do not draw a distinction between themselves and the rest of the brotherhood. Having floated the idea, which was valid due to the 6000 years, they did not push it unduly. If they had pushed it, all district overseers would have pushed it, not just Sunitko and a few like-minded zealots. There is plenty of 'blame' to go around. It is enough to say: "some brothers thought..."

The way they view it, and the way we do well to view it, is the spiritual way of Matthew 23. The way some here view it seems to me the fleshly way: the bossman class dictating to the worker class.

13 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

Maybe we were ALL APOSTATE!!! 

There is a lot of that going around. There ought to be a vaccine for it.

Health authorities are now saying the current flu vaccine will be but 10% effective. There had better be a lot of apologies - that's all I have to say.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

some brothers on the Governing Body were very vocal that you never admit a mistake because it will be used against you.

I find it hard to disagree with this. It is common for apologies to be demanded of public figures or business people today. When they are proffered, are the persons ever forgiven? Or is it the pattern that they have thereby admitted to disqualifying conduct and should step aside.

Friends do not require apologies. Enemies will not be satisfied with them. It is primarily a matter of the heart. It sounds to me that R.L struck just the right balance.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(This, of course, got the writer, R.L., dismissed from Bethel, even though he continued working for the Writing Dept.)

This makes no sense to me. If he was dismissed for his renegade writing, why was he retained as a writer?

45 minutes ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

*IF* Donald Trump announces to have the Capital of Israel moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, as indicated by the media.

....1947-2017 70 weeks     1967-2017 1 Jubilee

It would accomplish two irresistible aims of certain religionists. (Thank God they are not us)

It would validate those Middle Ages portrayals of the Savior with golden flowing hair.

It would affirm the U.S.A. as God's chosen vehicle.

On 12/4/2017 at 6:19 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

We say Witnesses got all excited over something that turned out to be a big nothingburger. Give them the short answer - ‘Everyone is allowed one failed end-of-world date per lifetime. It is in the rules’ - and be done with it.

The strategy to blow opposers off with a quick answer is the same one Jesus used many times, both to opponents and to those who just wanted a quick fix. Later, with his faithful disciples he (sometimes) explained matters in more detail. 

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

There is more than one way, and depending on what device you are using.

It's a trap, @Noble Berean!! Don't fall for it!

1 minute ago, Vic Vomidog said:

I have never once engaged in annoying behavior or an extra account!

I can vouch for him. He never did.

10 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is not by Chance Who is Sitting Where. Actors not picked by self on what chair to sit. Producent did that for them, Producent know why is important who is sitting where.... Because JW members have to Obey all Instructions from Organization no matter how that can look from Human Standpoint 

Yeah, that way when she sits down she sits where the camera is pointed so the video does not consist of an empty chair. They are not the first filmmakers ever to have done that.