Nana Fofana

Alan F
Again you misrepresent the facts for nowhere did the Society in the quotation on page 134 of the Proclaimers book use the word 'equate' but used the word 'connect' which is not synonymic. Brown simply connects these two time periods simply on the basis that the 'seven times' would be the 'Gentile Times' as part of the signs of his second coming which also would include his second judgement etc..(Eventide , 1823, vol.2.p.208) The Proclaimers  book on p.134 simply stated the fact of the connection between the two time periods contra Jonsson who had asserted the contrary. How then as you claim that Brown equated the two periods when in fact he interprets both periods differently throughout his treatise and the Society did not 'equate' these either but simply affirmed the connection which is clearly understood by any unbiased reader.
The Society in its publication did not explain the connection but simply affirmed it, Brown, on the other hand, connected the two contextually by means of two successive paragraphs, one with the former 'seven times' and in the next, by a quotation of Lule 21;24. Further, the link between the two time periods is part of the' signs of his second coming'.
There you have it in a 'nutshell'. No need for 'gobble-de-goop'.
scholar JW
 

Nana Fontana
Thank you for the source but is typical of how this subject is treated in the literature. You should note that there is no specific date given for the Return despite the clear historical facts presented by the Chronicler.
scholar JW

Alan F
Yes Alan, let's get some facts.
I shan't worry about your early comments on 1914 as these are simply nonsense. As this post is about 607 BCE let us stick to that!
No, the pivotal date for WT chronology is 539 BCE and not 537 BCE and there is no speculation associated with the calculation of 537 BCE for it is a 'stand alone' date based on the historical events described 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 and Ezra 1:1-3:1-7.
The word speculation is defined as: contemplation along with other related meanings such as conjecture but nothing of that sort is present in WT publications discussing the chronology of the Return of the Jewish Exiles. The date 537 BCE is well established historically, biblically and in accordance with sound principles of Chronology. The WT publications clearly outline all of the data associated with this period and a relevant dating is thereby established as outlined. There is nothing 'bogus' or 'fuzzy' here. In fact, even Carl Jonsson has not found any problems with our Methodology  simply proposing 537 or 538 BCE for the Return.In fact, biblical historians leave this matter open by simply either omitting a precise date or giving a suggestive date for the Return.
Your date of 538 BCE does not fit the evidence and is a poor choice, yes you can make it fit but it is a tight squeeze, for 537 BCE is just a nice fit, comfortable in scope and nature.
Your claim that Jeremiah's 'seventy years' represents only a period of Babylonian hegemony over the Near East is only partially correct for this period also represents total desolation of Jerusalem and Judah and the Exile for and in Babylon.No other theory than this fits all of the biblical, historical data coincides with secular history namely Josephus and fits well within the OT theological context.
scholar JW
 
 

2 CRON 36:20 + 21
20 He took all the survivors to Babylonia, where they served him and his descendants as slaves until the rise of the Persian Empire. 21 And so what the Lord had foretold through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: “The land will lie desolate for seventy years, to make up for the Sabbath rest[c] that has not been observed.”
Daniel 9
Darius the Mede, who was the son of Xerxes, ruled over the kingdom of Babylonia. 2 In the first year of his reign I was studying the sacred books and thinking about the seventy years that Jerusalem would be in ruins, according to what the Lord had told the prophet Jeremiah. 3
 
Jeremiah 29:10Good News Translation (GNT)
10 “The Lord says, ‘When Babylonia's seventy years are over, I will show my concern for you and keep my promise to bring you back home.
 
Jeremiah 25:
11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, a
 
The books of Daniel and Chronicles confirm what Jeremia said:  

As usual, JW defenders with their preset agenda are here making pronouncements on subjects they know little or nothing about. I'll disabuse them of some of their notions with facts.
On 1914:
C. T. Russell made the 1914 date the linchpin of his chronological doctrinal structure beginning in 1876. His creation, the Watch Tower Society, has continued with this false structure through today.
How do we know that Russell's chronological structure is false? By many methods, but what I'll mention here is that the proof is in the pudding:
Not a single one of Russell's predictions for visible events based on that structure came true.
Not one of the supposedly Bible-based claims made by Russell's successors in the Watch Tower Society for the post-1914 period are valid:
Famine in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
Pestilence in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
War has been, on average, nearly the same in terms of per capita killed than pre-1914.
Earthquake frequency and intensity have been about the same as pre-1914. The risk of death due to earthquakes is substantially lower than pre-1914; the per-capita death rate in the 18th century was about 2 1/2 times lower than in the 20th century.
Had the mass killers of history claimed by the Watch Tower Society to have been operating on an unprecedently high level since 1914 actually been so operating, they would have killed an unprecedently high percentage of world population, resulting in a massive population crash. Yet we see a massive population explosion beginning in the early 1800s and continuing without letup through today.
Yes, today there are many potential severe killers on the loose: global warming, political crises, war, etc. But these do not support the Watch Tower Society's tradition about post-1914 events (e.g. famine, pestilence, war, earthquakes). Thus, trouble in the world today is irrelevent to the Watch Tower Society's claims about events beginning in 1914.

On 607:
The Watch Tower Society's pivotal date for its 1914 chronology is 537 BCE, which it bases on speculation that there were about two years between the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and the return of some Jewish exiles to Judah in 537 BCE. Yet there is no proof of this speculation, and one will find only speculation in Watch Tower publications. Further, the available evidence is that the Jews returned to Judah in 538 BCE, thus wiping out Watch Tower chronology in one fell swoop.
The claim that the prophet Jeremiah predicted exactly 70 years of desolation of Judah is demonstrably false, using the Bible alone. What Jeremiah predicted was 70 years of Babylonian hegemony over the Near East. Desolation of Judah was to occur only if the Jews refused to bow to Babylonian rule.
Much more could be said, but for now I'll leave it at that.
AlanF

Yes, the interpretations change as Jehovah chooses to reveal information to us "young children."

We are talking about lack of scientific evidence for these dates  and how most of the humanities sciences are not worth much any more. Here is another example: 
Sciences for Middle Eastern studies and those sitting on the UNESCOs UN committee have already issued a ruling which stipulates that Israel has NO history in Jerusalem.!  How historically correct is that? Can one call this science? ..... When there is ample proof that Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE ?
So I would say it is relevant to the topic..... unless you have tunnel vision and cannot relate to anything else which puts more light on the subject by widening it out.  If you put your trust in these departments and their professors - you are going to be misled!  
 
 

Ann
It is all very simple. Carl Jonsson in his early editions of his GTR, 1983/86  p. 21 stated that John Aquila Brown "He did not associate this period with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24". Jonsson provided no support for this opinion and in his later editions, 3rd in 1998 and the 4th edn. in 2004 he stated: "Further, despite the Society's italicized statement, Brown did not connect the 2520 years with the Gentile  Times of Luke 21:24".
So, I would have thought with this history of matters the onus of proof lies not with the Society because they had simply made a correct observation based on a careful reading of Brown's entire work and possibly in refutation of Jonsson's original claim but with Jonsson himself to 'set matters straight'. In view of this, you can either write to Bethel for the specific page as I had done or you can write to Jonsson for a copy.
The very fact that you have sat on your hands for the last two decades and not satisfied yourself as to the integrity of the matter is quite telling thus it is left to others on this forum to make a judgement about your own motivation and bias.
scholar JW
 
 

This is dangerous thinking because there are too many signs on the ground now which started in 1914 and is culminating into a very dangerous world-wide situation - it is putting the future of mankind's very EXISTENCE in jeopardy.  These issues will definitely all be coming to a crisis within the next few years - quicker than expected.
Those saying : where is the end?   It is panting to its 'disastrous apex' and most people are not giving attention or think they have ample time - just as the scriptures warned us. All aspects of our 'survival as a species' will come to head quite soon. 
I made sure for myself years ago that I accept 1914 and acknowledge completely that I now tend to look more at world events for the signs on ground zero - all the politics and trends happening in the world right now regarding ecology, deforestation, water pollution, weapon arsenals, and philosophy - to name only a few facets.   It helps me in the field because most people accept 1914 and the invisible rule (rev 12: 6 onwards) when they can see what has been happening since 1914 in real life. Even atheists evaluate their stance on the world when one can logically present what is going on and ask the question: how 'science' will solve this.....
I have been criticized for being here on this forum and not offering academic contributions.... However, I do have an interest to follow the newest contributions from other contributors to see if there is anything new that I had not thought about before when I looked into it years ago. 
I do sometimes make comments to add some interesting tidbit, when I see that someone is unreasonable, or when someone has sneaked in some other 'related subject'  which is not in line with bible thought - which comes from the idea that they do not accept 607 - 1914. 
When they do not accept 1914 they tend to deviate into all other kinds of theories which are not based on accurate thinking from the scriptures .... such as the idea that the 144000 will be living in flesh amongst us after Armageddon......and Christ will have to appear in flesh so the world will know what is going on.  (The Muslims have a place where they say the Mahdi will come and I often wonder if they will have world-television there so everyone will see him - fleshly reasoning not based on truth)
It is nice to follow the academic discussion - but again - it only benefits those here and those who have the stamina to quickly read through it when they come home from daily activities and offer a comment. 
The slave have done their homework and do not set out to cover up or deceive as some on this forum imply - the Amaharets are better off tending to their children and get on with the business of family worship and field service. Academic arguments is not going to bring more people closer to Jehovah. And since this is supposed to be a religious forum and not an academic forum at a university - I can make this statement. 

When people start to develop egos and leave the truth one cannot trust them any more.  TRUST is an important aspect in all facets of life - even in business when working with opposition companies or negotiating.  I have worked in business in America and believe me TRUST is the most important thing - if your work involves working with opposition companies.
If I am working with a person in a team and they are always criticizing management severely and they are only looking out for themselves - ego - it breaks team morale.  We are social animals after all - Jehovah created us this way - that we need to trust each other. 
When someone has left the truth and they are pursuing a scholarly career then ego and politics at the university enters into it.  At present I would NOT like to be working at any  university - have you noticed what is going on?   Would I completely trust such a person and their integrity to just go after truth?  Or is it more important to them to get noticed and pose a new theory? 
 

EXACTLY  MY  THOUGHTS  TOO   -   Thanks  for  your  nice  comment,  dear  Sister @DeeDee....  Oh  yes,  our  thinking  is  NEVER  Jehovah's  thinking !  Humans  are  so  different  and  little  in  all...   By  Armageddon  we  will  make  BIG  eyes  about  Jehovah's  idea's  for  us    HE  always  will  find  a  good  way  for  HIS  folk !   GREETINGS  FROM  GERMANY  TO  YOU !!

It shows a good example of how Jehovah sees things differently than we do:
Something that we see as a BAD thing, Jehovah knows how to "Cause it to Become" something GOOD!...YAY JEHOVAH!!!

I  was  happy  for  that  new  privat  report  about  our  RUSSIAN  Brothers  and  Sisters   Many  JW  are  doing  a  good  work,  with  Jehovah's  special  help !  Thats  MORE  than  a  blessing    NOT  FORGET  OUR  RUSSIAN  BROTHERS  &  SISTERS  ? ? ?

RUSSIA  - The Holy Spirit of Jehovah in action....    ENJOY !
I thought it would be heartening to share an experience I had while working on the Bethel Chelmsford site   a couple of days ago.
I worked with a Russian-speaking brother and, of course, I asked him if he had "any updated news about our brothers and sisters in Russia". He has been talking to some of his friends in Russia and told me that "many inactive" had begun to return to the truth when they saw the persecution as a sign of the nearness of the end of this system. He also mentioned that some employers who have witnesses as employees have been interested in the truth, since they can not relate the good behavior of their employees with the label of "extremism". This has made some of them curious about our beliefs and teachings. Also those interested have had their interest reached by what has been happening, so some have increased their interest. Also the fact that some of the law enforcement countries have had to go through our literature trying to find something extremist has meant people who would normally have nothing to do with the truth have come to understand our message of the good news.
It is amazing how Jehovah has used this prohibition and the unjust treatment of our brothers as a catalyst to get people interested in the truth.
He also mentioned that there was consensus that the "exemplary family award" that was given to the family of witnesses at the award ceremony was purposely made to be a symbolic gesture that "yes, Jehovah's Witnesses are good people" and as people who have no problem with us Almost nobody believes it was an accident, since nobody can get so close to Putin without the powers to know everything about you, your family, the way you live, including your religion, and everything others about his life and that of his families. The timing was well judged and "it seemed to be a way of letting the world realize that it was trying to be fair and balanced, maintaining its position on extremist activities." :confused:
The preaching work is done very covertly and they do not go out of their way to mention that they are Jehovah's Witnesses, maybe just a few words in a conversation and then they continue normally. In the smaller cities where everyone knows everyone, there is more persecution than in cities where it is easier   to mix.
Some brothers are leaving the country and find it very easy to request asylum for reasons of religious persecution even more than asylum seekers from countries torn by war.
I believe that the spirit of Jehovah is working firmly in Russia, even though there is a lot of religious persecution. Jehovah is using this situation in a very positive way, just as we thought he would. I know that this information comes only from one source and that other sources may have a different opinion on all this, but I found it extremely encouraging to hear the positive effect that this situation has had on the country of Russia.
( shared  by  our  dear  Spanish  Brother...)  THANK YOU !! 
                      ? .•*¨`*•..¸???¸.•*¨`*•. ?

Anna
The simple answer is that 539 and 537 BCE are not controversial as there is no contradictory evidence against these two dates whereas 587 is very controversial within scholarship for the following reasons:
1. Does not account for the biblical 'seventy years' creating a gap of 20 years in the NB Period
2. Rolf Furuli's research based on VAT 4956 that the Fall of Jerusalem can be adjusted to 607 and not 586/7BCE
3. Scholars cannot precisely determine whether Jerusalem fell in 587 or 586 BCE
4. WT scholars as with all other Chronologists use different Methodologies in order to construct a scheme of Chronology so that means that WT scholars looking at all of the available evidence can exercise academic discretion exercising priority/interpretation to the data.
5. I stand corrected but it is  my opinion that it was Christine Tetley, a NZ scholar who did her Ph.D on the Divided Monarchy or as she terms it the Divided Kingdom-DK, made good use of Methodology in her thesis perhaps the first scholar to introduce such a term into Chronology. I had introduced the term before her or about the same time on a online forum soon after Rodger Young used the term as well. Tetley's thesis is titled The Reconstructed Chronology of the Divided Kingdom, 2005, Eisenbraums.
So in very simple terms the answer in one good word essential in all academic work: METHODOLOGY
scholar JW

Hello, DeeDee, think about what this verse is speaking about. It is not as hard as one think. Who partake of the 'first' resurrection? Those of the heavenly hope, and when they are given life, they are immortal, death has no hold there is no last test for them, correct? But those brought back to life during the reign of Christ, what happens when Satan is let loosed upon the earth? We all must past this final test, because if any fail they will end up where? So after this test death will be no more, all who pass has nothing but life in front of them, no testing of where their sovereignty lies, they have proved it. So the writer could put this what he saw in the future in those very words. Everyone else, the dead, would not come to life without death, until the 1000 yrs had ended.

This to me sounds like a bunch of people who want to see themselves as a special class of teachers...... and walk around amongst the earthly Amaharets as privileged heavenly ones.....like the fathers of the Nephilim of old.... same wish for more than their allotted attention.  
Jehovah's people are already being taught at our meetings ...  and Jehovah may use this same system in the new system.   An army of people are being added to the earthly domain of Jehovah's future government every day and are being taught individually by those who primarily have the promise of living for ever on EARTH as future subjects. No special anointed with special insight needed for this!!
Again - look what is happening on the ground....in reality - not fantasy...
Today - we are being prepared as future citizens - totally neutral and being taught to love one another and care for each other and to obey Jehovah. We are all taught the 'principles' of Jehovah and each individual knows what is expected from him. The problem is that we all  are living in a secular world and have to cope with secular problems all the time.  Many come from bad backgrounds and need time to unlearn some bad personal habits - but overall they do not become gross sinners and try not to be hurtful human beings or have hurtful practices towards others. (We all will be happy when the influence of satan and his demons are removed.)
There are a few renegades and they are set outside the congregation until they accept that they have sinned against Jehovah and hurt their fellows and try to change and cooperate with the teachings of Jehovah and the elders (Elders are a scriptural instruction - no need to give proof from the bible). 
Under Jehovah's government now we do not have police to keep everyone in check. Everyone is expected to obey from free will supported by the education they received individually and in the congregation. Those who overstep the lines (invisible barriers where one can harm another or self or disrespect Jehovah) are spoken with, but if their rebellion is serious - they need to face the consequences. 
All governments have police - we do not because we have already been EDUCATED SPIRITUALLY and as individuals we have all the materials needed to educate ourselves further.  In the new system - when the new scrolls open up, all will be educated in the same way - and all will be expected to obey by their own volition/free will. (no supervisors needed or special individual teachers).  Jehovah's government will deal directly with those who are a threat to others. 
After the 1000 years - the anointed and Jesus will no longer be in their positions as kings and priests. They will get new jobs. How will people on earth live?  Will they need police or supervisors?  NO.  They will experience total freedom like Adam had and live by their educated consciences - and their direct communication with Jehovah will be restored. In the 1000 years there will be a continuation of what is happening NOW - a continuation of the spiritual education (without satan around to cause problems) so that everyone can reach perfection.  All the needed provisions (spiritual food from the new scrolls will be provided/facilitated).... as Revelation indicates. Jehovah's spirit will be in abundance! And we will be free to communicate with him without the worldly pressures and agendas that crowd our lives now.
If one understands the Hebrew word for rule (as in Arabic)  - it is NOT the secular oppressive rule that we have seen in the worldly system past and present ......... it is closely related to the word "to give justice"... to judge (judge does not have the connection to punish - but to give justice).  Any creature who likes to control others is like satan.
All the resurrected ones on earth who have suffered will receive compensation and justice in this 1000 years.  All the lowly and those oppressed - who before were slaves... they will receive the benefits of total freedom with personal responsibility...  living in peace and harmony with others and NOT being dominated by any one else on anyone telling you what to do.  Obedience to Jehovah is ALWAYS a matter of conscious choice!  If everyone obeyed by conscious choice there would be no problems on earth at all.  If everyone cooperated willingly to instructions (without it being a law) we will have harmony and equity- (each person being appreciated for who they are). 
Those who decide at the final test as perfect people that they do not want to live under this government - will face consequences for their choices. If they choose like Adam - they will face the consequence of Adam.... however the number of people is undetermined now. 
So elders in the new world will NOT tell people what to do - they will be facilitators/serve.  The anointed ( 1kor 15) will have heavenly bodies with immortality. It is unnatural for heavenly bodies to materialize - only on special occasions did Jehovah instruct his angels to materialize and it was with at special occasions when his "purpose" was being directed. 
Romans 9:4 speaks of "sacred service" of the anointed.  Primarily they are the 'new heavens' spoken of..... with heavenly bodies . Their priestly duties will most probably be to facilitate the provisions and instructions for the forgiveness of sins.... If they do materialize it will be for a specific purpose because they are 'adopted sons' - like the other angels and they are a new creation with a new name (new heavenly position and function).  We do not see the angels amongst us do we?  Yet we know they are there and they are assisting the preaching and teaching work....
To give up their heavenly bodies will be to give up their separateness as a priestly nation - a special possession - set aside for Jehovah.   Their new jobs are not completely defined in the bible.  All we know is that their work will be rewarding and important....1Peter 2 they will offer up spiritual sacrifices through Christ. Hebrews 8:5 indicates the priesthood of Moses to be a "shadow" of the sacred service in 'heaven' - heavenly things.
They will facilitate/oversee the teaching of the word of Jehovah... and the important function of judging and seeing that righteous 'decisions' are made and Jehovah's righteous law is enforced throughout the earth - almost like the boardroom in a company. Jehovah's spirit will be in full operation so he will facilitate communication between heaven and earth as he has done in the past. Many resurrected ones may have problems adapting etc.... so the 144000 will have an important job to facilitate justice and mercy.  They have enough experience as imperfect people.
The anointed may be visible during Armageddon but this cannot be taught as a fact. We know that angels destroyed 185,000 troops of Sennacherib and he himself thought it was pestilence - no-one saw the angels (Israel ot the Assyrians did not) but they saw the results!  The bible does also speak of natural signs.... so people will not be in the dark as to who is bringing the destruction especially after they start to attack Jehovah's people in the entire globe!
Moses was a priest - he called to Jehovah and interceded for israel - their intercessionary work will also be the facilitation of justice and mercy.  Moses heard many cases until it was given to 70 elders.   
The elders are an institution - given in the bible - they are shepherds and facilitators for the congregations... servants... of others. They are now being trained (and will still need a lot of training like all the others) if they are to be used in futue.  The higher you want to be in Jehovah's organization the humbler one should become..... this is what the bible teaches... no need to quote all the scriptures.

Yes this was heard, however you fail to know everything else that surrounds Australia itself in regards to its laws and customs. However bashing of one's religion is "childish", but it seems evident from a man who likes to waste his time.
For me I respect the Jehovah's Witnesses a lot, this is coming from a guy who knows Christian history and manuscripts of the oldest source, which the Jehovah's Witnesses stick to. Believe it or not, a friend of mine who is a Jehovah's Witnesses is the reason why my brother is no longer a depressed wreck because of an "issue" he had before he moved out, a clean and new man. Other then that, they are doing a lot of right bible-wise and as a Christian compared to most.
 
FYI, if you are one of the guy's I ran into before, please tell your troop to not make fun of the Manchester Bombing whereas people were killed in cold blood. It would put my heart at ease when you guys actual act "human" when such things take place.
At the end of the say there is good people, and there is bad people, and only bad people will have the intent to do bad whereas the opposite will have the intent to do what is good.
 

Immortality of a human soul is the biggest lie ever perpetrated on humanity ... "global warming"  caused by man is the second biggest lie.

Anna
My previous comments on Chronology must be read in context. The subject is complex but beneficial for all as anyone can at least know the dates and how these are determined without being bogged down with technicalities so it is adaptable to one's level of understanding. Dates are not essential for salvation but accurate knowledge leading to Wisdom is a most worthy spiritual pursuit.as I am sure you appreciate.
I omitted Gerard Gertoux not because he is a competent Chronologist but because his Witness status is uncertain and he has been publicly vague on this point. If I remember correctly he stated that as he was a PhD candidate he did not want his Thesis compromised in any way so has minimized his activity. Perhaps I should have mentioned his name as follows: Gerard Gertoux?
scholar JW

Anne O Maly
Let us be perfectly clear on this matter. I have to hand a large red manilla folder which contains my correspondence both by mail and email to the WT Society in Brooklyn, Carl Jonsson and Raymond Franz all to do with the italicized statement made in the Proclaimers book. I wrote twice to Bethel seeking clarification of this dispute, the first letter, ECE:ECP April 13, 1998 which gave me the source for the quotation and the second letter , ECM:ECH March 11, 1999 came with 2 photocopied pages, p, 135 and 208 from Brown's book along with a photocopy of the title page showing the vol. number and date of publication; vol.2, 1823. It was noted that the connection is found on page 208 wherein the connection is clearly and easily identified. This page contains 2 paragraphs in portion, the first par. mentions the 'seven times' of Daniel and the very next par. contains the quotation of Luke 21:24 so a connection between the two is plain. 
Previously, I had received from COJ copies of some pages from Brown's book which purported to show the Society's error but these revealed no such thing and that is why I wrote to Bethel. The letter from COJ is dated Jan. 12,1998. Subsequent emails from COJ on this matter showed COJ trying to defend his position quibbling over the nature of the connection but this too was foolishness and I was left wondering about COJ's level of comprehension.
Further, I had written to both James Penton and Raymond Franz about the matter because they were part of the group of editors who wrote the Foreword to the Gentile Times Reconsidered, first published in 1983. Penton did not reply but Franz did and he simply referred the matter to COJ for comment. Franz had in fact supported the Society's position as shown in his Crisis Of Conscience, 1994, 2nd edn.p.367 yet he in a email dated September 24, 2003 he chastised me and the Society for sloppy research and failing to properly understand Brown's description of the prophetic periods.
In short, whatever the nature of the connection it is left up to the reader to decide its relationship and I believe that COJ made a serious error in accusing the Society in such a dogmatic way for plainly on that same page 208 .a connection of sorts is plainly evident.
scholar JW

Anna
I appreciate your comments in your last post on Chronology and particular the attitude of the present day Witnesses to the End. However, I disagree with your comment about the relevance of dates particularly such as the 607/ 587-86BCE controversy and 1914 CE. Although, Chronology should not become an ' Article of Faith' as part of some Creed or as primary doctrine nevertheless there are several good reasons for Christians or Bible Students to be interested and challenged by such an "extremely complex and almost esoteric field" of study(Finegan, Handbook Of Biblical Chronology , 1964, p.v). Jack Finegan lists several reasons for the importance of Dates and Chronology as:
1. To address the concern to comprehend the whole sweep of God's administration of the world and the world's end.
2, To demonstrate the high antiquity of biblical traditions over against pagan ones or in short the Sacred versus the Profane.
3. To show the fulfilment of Bible Prophecy
4. To determine the date of Church festivals and in our case the date of the Memorial
These key four points are sourced as follows (op.cit.p.139, pars.230-233)
scholar JW
University of Sydney

JW Insider
Ppst 1789
It is not false to claim that evidence supports 607 BCE. The calculation is simple, derived from the biblical data with a well recognized pivotal date and is consistent with the NB period by the simple insertion of 20 years to bring reconcile both schemes of chronology.. You do not like this to be the case because you do not like this methodology but that is your problem not mine. There is inconsistency in WT Chronology just your misreading the WT publications. The Gentile Times is a valid prophetic period long recognized by many Bible Students.
-------
The Bible chronology fits the archaeological evidence from NB chronology. There is no evidence for 607. To get anywhere near 607 you have to accept 539, which you have no right to do if you are going to reject 539 by claiming that Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year was 607. If you are honest, you are forced to reject 539 if you accept 607. You can't cherry pick a range of dates that are interwoven and interlocked through tens of thousands of tablets and at least 10 other completely independent lines of evidence. You can claim whatever you want, but you'd have to show evidence if you are honest.
---------
Bible Chronology can only fit NB Chronology if the Gap of 20 years is identified and inserted into the period in order to harmonize both systems. There is abundant evidence for 607 BCE and to say otherwise is simply displays ignorance or hubris. The pivotal date or anchor date is essential for any Chronology so we have wisely selected 539 BCE and we have every right to make such a choice because of the Methodology adopted by WT scholars.The matter of 'cherry-picking' dates is your problem, not mine for we have no need for such nonsense.Yes we can all make claims but one must be honest and follow the evidence where it leads, I have done just that and I have determined by means of an examination of all of the facts that 607 BCE is on the money.
----
WT Chronology is indeed anchored to 539 BCE just read our publications. The biblical data makes mention of Neb's 18th and 19th year in connection of the Fall of Jerusalem and we have no difficulty with using both in calculating 607 BCE. In contrast, our critics simply cannot reconcile the 18/19th years thus cannot determine the precise date for the Fall with the vague 586/587 BCE scenario. What a joke!!!
 
Simplicity is everything in science otherwise you have gobblygook. The WT publications have explained to its readers the different dating systems, counting methodology, time units, different calenders etc.which any half decent work on Chronology would do. There is no need to bluster as all of these matters are explained in full and simply so that the reader can work out the matters himself.
 
It is a matter of competence and by means of our tabulation of the Divided Monarchy, we can prove that we have used the biblical data correctly for most other scholars present widely different schemes for the Divided Monarchy. If a scholar cannot get this right then how can one be trusted with a much shorter period =NB Period which in fact overlaps the latter phase of the Divided Monarchy. Also problematic is a simple fact that there is a missing 20 years found when one compares both periods of history.
The date 607 is well established despite your protestations to the contrary. The evidence has long been presented simply in our publications easily understood by the reader. The Gentile Times was mentioned by Jesus and its period expired in 1914 and was recognized by leading clergy who equated the fact of the matter to the events of Jerusalem in 1917. However, Bible Students correctly applied those 'times' to the Kingdom of Heaven when in fact about that time of 1914, German theologians had casted the Kingdom in an eschatological context which of course can be associated with 1914 and its significance both to modern history but to Bible Prophecy as discussed by Daniel and later cited by our Lord Jesus. Interestingly, John Aquila Brown had first linked the words of our Master and Saviour in Luke 21;24 with the 'seven times' of Daniel ch.4.which is the basis of our doctrine today. You are correct the Bible does not refer to 'seven Gentile Times' but to the Lukan 'Gentile Times' which is equated to the Danielic 'seven times'.
 
The capture of Jerusalem in 1917 had nothing to do with the outworking of the Gentile Times for it had expired three years earlier but it was the interpretation of many prominent clergy
 
is  that it was recognized by some clergy  the validity of the Gentile Times doctrine even if not fully understood as was the case of the early Bible Students.
Jesu s' words make it perfectly that the Gentile Times had begun much earlier according to Daniel's prophecy as shown by the Greek tense of the verb used by Him. The date 607 BCE does not represent pseudo archaeology but in fact harmonizes well with modern biblical archaeology especially in reference to the 'Myth of the Empty Land' hypothesis.
Our wondrous Cable of Chronology is valid and accurate well supported in the fulfilment of Bible Prophecy. It anchors the Parousia which began in 1914 CE as we patiently heed the coming of sweet Jesus our beloved Lord and Master who during His Parousia beginning in the celebrated year of 1914 has overseen the work of the true Church during the time of Harvest.
scholar JW
Please pardon any scripting or posting errors

times and a half" or 1260 (lunar or 'Mohammedan') years with Luke 21's Gentile times (p. vii, xi, etc.).   Well - the Bible also used lunar years,  so why call it Mohammedan?  All the planting in Israel was done according to the Lunar calendar and they watched the moon to see when the festivals should be.  It was their way of counting time just as the nations around them did.  The only difference was - they were not allowed to blow kisses at the moon or worship the moon like the pagans around them did.

He is exactly right.
 
Somewhat. It is because he knows the overall world is not Winnie-the-Pooh friendly toward Christian values. What is it with those who would disparage such counsel? They are exactly out of harmony with Scripture, in that they present the world as though it was.
I have the greatest respect for him, because he says what needs to be said, despite knowing that villains will beat him over the head with his own words and JTR will photoshop tight pants on him.
His counsel is exactly what public safety people will tell the public - hang up on the scammers. Don't think you can outsmart them. They do it 24/7 and you do it 10 minutes a month.
Don't be cocky thinking you will outwit the loudmouth car dealer & beat him at his own game. It is possible, but not likely, for the same reason.
This is not aimed at me, but I rationalize away nothing. It is counsel, not law. Also, I have plainly said I am being a bad boy in this regard. In all other significant areas, I would hope I can say I am exemplary. But not this one, and I do fret about setting a bad example for others. I do it for reasons not necessarily spiritual. Sometimes I just like to brawl. Even when I think I have "won" I have demonstrated an un-Christian trait. Even if I display clever argumentation, I distract from Scriptures that says it is primarily heart that counts. Charles Russell say 'if you stop to kick every dog that barks, you will not get very far.' Sometimes I like to kick them. And no, I haven't gotten very far.
Rightly or wrongly, to me, this forum is where spiritual themes play out and where hearts manifest themselves. This is where it can be seen "they went out from us, because they were not of our sort." "Sorts" can be seen here. Like the person who gags at the mention of "the greater good" when it is exactly pursuit of the greater good that is integral to Christianity as shown in Scripture. Like the person who argues doctrine or prophesy till the cows come home but never once gives indication whether they actually apply Christ-like traits in their own life. Like the person who wears like a badge of honor the #1 apostate trait Peter identifies: a contempt for authority.
Ann is routinely cutting in her remarks. "I am amazed (but maybe I should not be)" she hurls at someone who has resisted her instruction on another thread. She so plainly views herself as one of the intelligentsia with her patience being sorely tried as she talks down to the dumbbells. There is a time and place to say "sometimes people disagree - I can live with that."
Witness has revealed beyond all doubt her craving for audience and authority. @Arauna has nailed it pretty well.
Srecko has chosen to represent himself here as a moron, with his inane giggle hehehe preceding each imagined coup de grace, and his absurdly smilelys at the end. :)))) It reveals someone extremely clever in his own eyes as he taunt those he thinks he outwits.
These characters will scream about ad hominem attacks. Within reason, there is nothing wrong with ad homenem attacks, though I can see why they would not want any leveled at them. Jesus said a Christian should be a living example of Christianity, therefore an ad hominem attack should find little to latch onto. If it does, it is an indication that one is lacking in spiritual qualities and therefore possibly not the one you want to hitch your wagon to.
An internet forum is a battle of the wits and the Bible says it is the heart that matters. No wonder Anthony Morris is not enthused with it.