Srecko Sostar

May we make conclusion that both, Catholic and JW have "The Truth" about this issue ? :))) This is interesting observation. With this it is possible to see how some individuals are Naturally kind, good, humble, they let God to guide them through "His earthly servants" (who ever they are). :)) Also we can go with this: God "Created them in such Nature" and they don't need congregation, WT publications or even Bible to make them humble and to obey God or other people in "His service". They do not need to make special "efforts" to be in Line with God's will. They do this by Nature. :)) With other perspective (according to definition) something, many thing is/are wrong if we are "sheeple". Definition of sheeple informal : people who are docile, compliant, or easily influenced

I will answer: Just on this. (but not to discuss only about CA) Now please, you answer on mine: What is questionable about Court document and GB members as Defendants in it?

Thanks for respond. Perhaps you have right that my conduct is boring, but this Topic is about one and same subject. I see my participation as something that is inside this topic. I am glad that some other JW's are in agreement with my thoughts as well some other ex-JW. Perhaps you too is in one of this group. As i can understand @Arauna position, or your' after this respond you addressed me, it seems that me and some other people using "questionable content". What is questionable about Court document and GB members as Defendants in it?

It is good that you have clue about this issue. And because of your knowledge on that, it is strange that you want to minimize JW involving in this problem. It seems that you want to tell us here how JW organization in fact has NO Problem on this subject. Sad! If ex-JW making focus on this JW issue, why you find this inappropriately? If secular authorities making focus on this JW issue, why you find this inappropriately? Who is authorized, in your opinion, to speak up about this? GB and WT Lawyers?

WT Society "rowing" (JW TV broadcast with G. Lösch) about knowledge. So I do not see what is "exact" about JW theology. Few doctrines that differentiate JW from Catholic church, for example, doesn't prove much. Because same or similar teachings are part of some other denominations or organization, too and vice versa. It could be how WT Society made own "choir" of members and "preaching" them plenty of "exact clarifications" about "knowledge".

Coming from a righteous man. 9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. -- Rom 3 20 Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. --- Eccl 7 Do you know who is "righteous man"? Do you have unmistakable "nose" for that? :)) Or, Pinocchio effect is visible when "unrighteous individual lies to you"? By this cited verses i really don't know WHAT sort of people you see as "righteous" and whose words you see as trustful. Jews and Gentiles, Jehovah's Witnesses and non JW's ...all are unrighteous human. Even those who made efforts to be "righteous" (many times only in their own eyes) sins commonly, most often in words. :)))

For the ear tests words as the tongue tastes food. - Job 34 So, yes. You should believe, if you have ear to test words. :))

... and now Shepherd book 2019 CAUTIONS BEFORE RECOMMENDING CERTAIN BROTHERS 6. Elders should make sure they have full and complete information regarding the brothers they intend to recommend to the circuit overseer, especially those in the following circumstances. 7. Previously Reproved, Disfellowshipped, or Disassociated: If he was reproved within the past three years or reinstated within the past five years, please provide the following information: What was the offense? In a case of reproof, did the judicial committee make an announcement? In a case of disfellowshipping or disassociation, what is the date of reinstatement? When were the last restrictions lifted? Are you aware of his having been reproved, disfellowshipped, or disassociated on any other occasions? What convinces you that he has lived down his past wrongdoing and that others now view him as a good example? If the wrongdoing took place in another congregation, how would that congregation view his appointment? Recommending him prematurely could minimize the seriousness of wrongdoing in his own eyes and in the eyes of others. It could also disturb those who still have his wrongdoing fresh in their memories. 8. Guilty of Adultery in the Past: When did the adultery occur? Was he reproved or disfellowshipped? If he was reproved, was an announcement made? Did the innocent mate reject him? How do you know this? If he divorced and remarried, did he marry the individual with whom he committed adultery? Is there evidence that he schemed to put away his former mate or that he pressured her to accept a divorce? Did the adultery break up the marriage of the other person? How were others affected by his adultery? Is the innocent mate still alive? Did the innocent mate remarry? What convinces you that he has lived down his past wrongdoing and is now viewed with respect? If the wrongdoing took place in another congregation, how would that congregation view his appointment?-See 12:10-12. CHAPTER 8 "SHEPHERD THE FLOCK OF GOD" APPOINTMENT AND DELETION OF ELDERS AND MINISTERIAL SERVANTS 9. Separated or Unscripturally Divorced: Who is primarily to blame for the marital problems? What were the circumstances surrounding the separation or divorce? Who was responsible for the separation, or who pursued the divorce? Did both sign the decree or in some other way indicate their agreement? How long ago did the separation or divorce occur? What is the brother doing to try to reconcile? Is his mate unwilling to cooperate with his efforts? If so, why? How is his situation viewed by the congregations involved? How do the elders of the mate's congregation feel about the brother? When separation and divorce are involved, there may be deficiencies on the part of one or both mates that make it necessary to limit special privileges because one or both mates may not be viewed as exemplary.-w00 12/15 pp. 28-29; /vs pp. 250-251. 10. Served as an Elder or a Ministerial Servant in the Past: With what congregation did he previously serve, and when did he stop serving? Why did he stop serving? What makes his circumstances different now? What progress has he made since he stopped serving? If he stopped serving in another congregation, how would that congregation view his reappointment? If he previously served as an elder and was not guilty of gross wrongdoing, it may not be necessary for him now to serve first as a ministerial servant, depending on the length of time since he stopped serving as an elder.-See 13:8.

.... if they were long enough in the past.... 19. If it comes to light or an appointed brother confesses that he has committed a disfellowshipping offense years in the past: The body of elders may determine he can continue to serve if the following is true:The immorality or other serious wrongdoing occurred more than a few years ago,and he is genuinely repentant,recognizing that he should have come forward immediately when he sinned. (Perhaps he has even confessed to his sin, seeking help with his guilty conscience.)He has been serving faithfully for many years, has evidence of God’s blessing, and has the respect of the congregation. 20. If the sin occurred before he was appointed as an elder or a ministerial servant,the elders will need to take into consideration the fact that he should have mentioned this possible impediment to his being qualified when elders interviewed him just prior to announcing his appointment. Moreover, the nature of the sin may reflect greatly on his qualifications to serve.For example,the sin may involve past child abuse,and this would likely disqualify him for many years.—w971/1pp.26-29;w77pp.697-698. 38 “Shepherd the Flock of God”—1Peter5:2 21. If the wrong doing occurred within the past few years while he was serving as an elder or a ministerial servant, he is disqualified from serving as such, not being“free from accusation.”(1Tim.3:2,10;Titus1: 6,7)Depending on the circumstances,the situation may also need to be handled by a judicial committee. —See5:43-44. Shepherd book 2012

I think @Arauna explained this part of subject how one part of society that including JW members are not willing to be proactive. And that also contribute to general situation. I agree with many what Arauna described in her comment. And i am also "broken" with so much suffer and bad things that some people and especially children going through. It is not about "twisting facts". If people are not satisfied with people who taking a lead, who rule, governing over them and their life, because they have double standards and twisting justice in "worldly system", they have chance to replace them by voting. And so on until they find the best people world can offer. JW not want to be "proactive" in this matter. That is their right to have such stand. But than, why to criticize system. System, "worldly", is mirror of people in general. JW system is also mirror of people that living and working and contributing to it as such. In general, JW people making effort to be good, but WT Society also have internal "system" that is corruptible and contribute to JW world, as also to worldly world, to be bad place for some individuals (victims).

Let us go further. By what law JHVH would judge people who lived in different periods of time. Because, as I understand Bible and WT interpretations of some verses, God will judge all our deeds. No matter of when people lived and no matter when they done something and did they die or still living. By what law He will do that? By the law that was in power when those people lived and done things, good and bad .......or will He using one Law (Present law in the moment of judging) and retroactively judged all our past deeds? Because Bible said how He will do that Retroactively. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” - Rom 2

Your entire comment and thoughts inside it are excellent and giving real picture on that part of JW organization and members. I have singled out this section relating to the work of elders. The work of those elders who are concerned about the lives of the people, and their commitment to the spiritual and emotional relationships of the assembly members. I can assume that all such individuals among the elders, who are in the minority, experience very serious, conflicting turmoil. For those elders who are very sensitive by nature, all that they may face can be too much. For such elders, who begin to perceive the paradox that arises between truth, justice, Jesus' teaching, on the one hand, and the corporate governance of that power, the power that human influences and positions (hierarchies) have of things, can end up very bad for themselves. Even in suicide.

Of course, when you take "sword" (of any kind. literal and spiritual too) in your hand many things can go wrong. But, i know that you understand what i was talking about. Your objection about my comment is "just for the sake of the public and to write something". :))) Wars in OT including Abraham to David and other individuals, and nation Israel, can be viewed and explained under both lights.

If i may join. We need some research about how many JW committed CM. But WT Society as Conglomerate who run Company, Corporation and Religion in the same time from one Central place in US are not willing to publish such information to no one - neither to Courts nor to Members. Some sort of exception is what was happen in Australia. But such database is only for Australia Branch Office. Even with such reduced insight, we saw how 1006 JW members and those who has been very closely related to JW congregations, committed crime. Many of them was MS and elders. Is that percentage small or big, we can discuss. But because of nature of crime and because of nature of JW church who has the highest moral standards, as they claim for themselves, any number is too high and embarrassing. Very very short respond: If WT Society is run by Spirit, than Spirit would know how to handle this problem. When we are in negative mode because talking often about bad things and problems, that can be a burden for both, ourselves and those who listen to us. Sometimes it is hard to "escape" this, because many of us had been very long in JW organization. If it is what you say, than JW members would know about all this when open JW TV. But there is no news, documents on JW Broadcast about what going on. Also, WT Australia not joined National Redress Scheme. What can be reason for that? Perhaps, because WT don't want to admit any responsibility about CM. They have no intend to join. And such stand is unacceptable. The Australian Government is encouraging all institutions responsible for child sexual abuse, including those listed below, to join the Scheme without delay. - https://www.nationalredress.gov.au/institutions/institutions-have-not-yet-joined If GB run all moves of secular and spiritual nature from one Central place, and request of all people inside church to obey every decision, than they are responsible. And that is why we have GB members listed as Defendants in newest Court case.

Yes.

@John H Slaughter Did you down vote me as a person ..... or you down vote Court Document ? :))))) What ever of this two options stay behind your reason, than you have a problem. Do you offer third option? :))

Perhaps these would help. It is good to read for your own first. 517900_2019_John_Michael_Ewing_v_John_Michael_Ewing_SUMMONS___COMPLAINT_1.pdf

I have heard (or read about it in some WT article, not sure) that too in first part of 1980'...... and repeated about this "danger stuff" to some young JW's in Czechoslovakia in 1985. :)))

@JW Insider you shared fine thoughts and showed your awareness and understanding of objections and questions other people accented and saw as serious items that need to be put on table for discussion and challenged. That is one of reason i like to read your comments which are respectful to other people, even when you are in a disagreement with them, about subject. What you described, can be also applicable for many human activities. For example, people who have common interest in producing food and living in some rural area, joined together. Looking for ways how support each other and care about each other and shield each other from outside bad influence, greedy merchants, natural disasters and so on. Well, in technical way, things can be looked as same. People, in that small community, will be facing inside problems and making regulations, rules and laws. How far will they go? To proclaim such rules as "God given"? Would they stick to rules at any cost or would be, as TTH said, "adaptive to modern technology". Or, not only to technology :))) Of course, we always have fear and potentially difficult situation in both directions - to stick with old things, as well to accept new and unknown. Burden is heavier, because in all this we (they) want to PUSH God as reason, motive and result.

Not only about mentally ill (pathogenic) issues, but about all other burdens that making people mentally, psychically burdened. I think how elders in congregations are very happy with this solution: if people who have various kind of problems, how they are on medications (drugs). If they swallow enough tablets they sit still, quietly in chairs during program. Elders prefer that people drink pills rather than alcohol when dealing with their problems. Because, alcohol have strong smell. Also, taking Pills is almost invisible for others and "socially more acceptable". :))

That is an excellent counter-question for the troublemaker and his two cheerleaders. From the standpoint of the soldier’s countrymen, no—it is not suicide. However, from the standpoint of the other 99% of the world’s population, it may not be suicide, but it is stark raving crazy misguided, putting trust in a delusion of self-interested superiority, and his death is an absolute waste, rewarded only with a monument from his fellow delusionites. What reward does God have in store for those who keep his laws even under duress? Think, how both questions have good position. Maybe we can be in better position about answer, if we take in consideration what would be chance to survive and continue to live (in this life of course :))) ) in each of this situations. On other side, by refusing blood you not participate in defending other people who had been attacked by evil force. Reason or reasons for refusing blood, standing in theological explanation of how should be understood verse in Bible, and how are your personal feelings about God's will. By this action (refusing blood) you directly help or harm yourself, and indirectly harm own family. Those people who going to war because they want to help people, are ready to put themselves in danger situation for (theoretically) only one reason - to help known and unknown people on cost of own life.

Hi Tom. I agree how we need to be "adapted". But that sounds also as in science books that explaining "evolution theory". Species were "adaptable" and .... survived. :))) Do you suggest and say how God's inspired words need GB and their human uninspired intervention according to modern Technological progress? And not only to technology, because why to stop on only such adaptations. Why you not going further and say, how God's inspired words need GB and their human uninspired intervention according to modern progress in Culture and Thoughts? You said how GB is unwilling to dictate people's conscience? What is base for your perception? GB made religious teachings and sorted them in 2 lines. They decide how things in one line are mandatory and in second are free choice. By such act they had already, prior to any of your attempt to make decision, made decision in your name and cancelled/ annulled activity and pursuit of your conscience. If we have legal regulation, than we have no need for conscience. Conscience was designed for other purpose, not to be under Power of Law. What shall we going to mix? :))

I love to listen some folk საქართველო songs. Very long ago i heard one on radio before going to work in early morning, and i can't find it never again. Title was, if i remembered well, Don't rustle, privet. (Ne šumi kalino - in Croatian) Perhaps you know it, Arauna ? Perhaps that sound too democratic :))) Non-Aligned Movement

In one hand this way of reasoning is valid. But, of course i need to notice this too. We can argue or make consensus about "core" teachings and about those that are "less" important teachings. If such categorization even exist!!! For example, blood transfusion. 1) CORE teaching is: we do not take transfusion of whole blood. 2) MINOR teaching is: we can take blood fractions. What makes this two teachings to be in 2 categories? The 1) is command, mandatory and disobey such teaching brings you dfd and JHVH judgment. The 2) is not command, but your personal choice and no one will ask you to give report on your decision. Also, i would like to incorporate in this conversation and reasoning another element. But that doesn’t mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God’s law to be overturned. ...... But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Law to become void. - Luke 16 two versions In this Jesus' words i see just opposite of common custom when WT Society and elders interpret, and you repeat it here, how some teachings are core and some are not. Why? Another reasoning we also find in Bible. If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones. - Luke 16 With this looking on subject about teachings, that some people consider to be somehow small or smallest in significance and value, we see how Jesus' perspective is not on same level that people have, about what is big and important and what is small and unimportant. With this what i wrote, I can't agree with explanation you offered, how some WT Society teachings are more important than others. Because, Jesus words showed me different way on how to look on details. Also, as conclusion, few JW doctrines that are supposedly the truth, can't save you from judgement about others doctrines that are supposedly lie. :)) But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. - Mat 12

As i am aware , voting as practice is not strange thing to WT Society. History tells us how voting is common way of bringing decisions and resolving problems. Until today. Elders voting on their meetings. Congregants also voting while making resolutions. So, this is not any different from what world doing. Subjects are different. But many things about "worldly" things are not in opposition to Bible. If, people who leaving in one street or area have to do something for common interest, for example, to build new water system or rebuild old one, and it is needed to collect "information" of how many people are ready to contribute with money, or who are ready to and will sign contract (to vote) for that purpose, you need to use this sort of democratic process - to vote for or against something. I would say how JW's are not against voting inside WT Society, but are against voting in secular life. Many things exists when decision is needed,have nothing with "politics"(state or political party things), but on other hand all in our life is politic anyway. Definition of politic 1: POLITICAL 2: characterized by shrewdness in managing, contriving, or dealing 3: sagacious in promoting a policy 4: shrewdly tactful In that sense, JW as people who know what is good and how to accomplish this same, are in position to mandatory doing good because they know doing good. If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them. - James 4. JW not need to go voting for new senator, or president, but will doing good to not be so "indifferent", as they are, in many other secular things in everyday life. Yes, you are entitled to have such feelings. BUT Until That Time Comes, you have to care about your garbage, ecology, animals, electricity, new urbanistic planes in your place of living, safety or traffic issues in the street, etc. General standpoint of JW's about this is exactly what you called as ... indifference. We are actively supporting only a future government of God .... and with this sentence you presenting what i try to explain. JW's are not active in supporting ... animal shelters or shelters for beaten woman and sexual abused children, homeless ...and so on.