Srecko Sostar

If we want to apply @Tom Henry way of reasoning and logic, and not only in religious matters but in every human activity because life means all and not only religion, we all are lunatics and deeply mentally ill. (In very deep sincerity i would agree with that :)))) Perhaps i would understand Tom Henry if he want to use Bible report of Eden excommunicate starting point. But that also would mean how religious legacy that WT Society and JW organization want to show how is based on every past "faithful witness for JHVH" individual or group is not possible to establish. Because, in very first moment when God aka Father had cute all spiritual (and literal) "family ties" with Adam and Eve and by that with their children, they been left in all sort of mental problems because their Father didn't want to "pick up telephone and answer on their call even to say Hello and to satisfied their emotional need to just hear His voice and be calmed by that". You can imagine how such treatment of ignoring (shunning) can cause all sort of emotional difficulties in individual. Such constant stress lead to depression and mental problems. It would not be surprise how some people ended in "mental house", in literal institution or home made nuthouse. If it is true how humankind is separated from God because of Adam sin, than we all are crazy. WT Society generously contribute to general madness (of flock) because they shows continuity in changing doctrines that was previously been established on Bible, deep study and prayers of faithful men..... and after change was made, new doctrine is also established on same methods and have same name - "the truth". It is logical how inside mental state of suppressed thoughts and emotion about WT Society doctrines can make people to be "mentally ill".

I agree. And you even not need to be obsessed or zeal with/for something, but still doing wrong thing. That is what i have in mind. But also is important where you are in that moment (spiritual and literal place). If such person is observed from/by people who not belong to same ideology it could be viewed as "fanatic" (zealous or obsessed, it would not be too much difference) Even inside own group, various levels of "spirituality" that individuals (and others around) have and shows, that individuals see as desirable and good, as the qualities that people around and god himself expecting of us to have them, can be in range from, what fellow brotherhood consider as, normal, role model zeal to something what can be very confusing and doubtful.

They are children of this period of time. And this is true for all of them, non JW children and JW children. WT Society can't do nothing to stop children to be "obsessed" about technology and viral life. That is why WT Society need to make changes (already in process) to make and hold interest of children and young people, and future old people in technology and equipment that will serve for purposes in modern shapes and sorts of worship.

To be zealous about something can be seen as obsession, too. For example, pioneer service is proof how some JW member is zeal for JHVH. He/she spend 35, 50, 70 hours or much more hours. Other things in their life are putted down for spiritual reasons. And such person mostly thinking about one thing - preaching. Is he/she obsessed with this activity? Many wouldl show "signs" of that. We can see how one Bible individual act in "obsessed" way. For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb........And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts......Now John himself had a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.....For John came neither eating nor drinking......Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea..... From our today's perspective even JW members would say how such person (without knowing source of description) is not in full mental health.

Dear Arauna, I don't know how other people feels, but will say for my self. I can't give to you and to other here any prophecy because of several reasons: 1) i am not true prophet 2) i am not false prophet 3) i am not inspired 4) i am not mentally ill :)))))) ... well yes you are right, i can only comment or criticize or give critical thinking on WT Society interpretations of prophesies and their attempt to explain when and how particular prophesy taking fulfillment....in other words WT "prophecy". ... criticizing JW timeline ...... jehovah is (NOT) the perfect timekeeper we expect him to be. .... I will describe how i explain this wording, you can correct me if you think otherwise. We have Bible and some verses that we think is a prophecy. We (in this case JW organization and WT Society) made, making and changing several versions of the explanation/interpretations as something that it is, must be, have to be, it can't be something else ...etc. And as result of big trust to this (human) interpretations, as they are been "empowered" by God, members thinking about JHVH as "perfect timekeeper" of His prophecy, but in fact of this "WT prophecy". And at the end, as normal expectation is this: JW's living in delusion of hope aka expectation how it is normal to have particular expectation from JHVH to be One who will fulfill human expectations as His own goal.

Mentally diseased (mental illness) Why would one religious magazine (with non medical educated authors of article) using Medical Terminology for dealing/clash with dissenters, opponents, members who are in "awakening mode"? What sort of "credentials" this people have (authors of article) who making medical expertise and conclusions about other people mental health? How they making "spiritual " observations for purpose of bringing "medical" diagnose? Or "medical" observation for "spiritual" diagnose"? @Outta Here speaking about, JW.org is reflecting the Bible's view.... and made pictures with madness of prophets. What ex JW or apostates or mentally ill JW/ex JW talking about self as "prophet"?? WT Society is known as exactly showing such idea about self as "prophet for JHVH". This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197). Well please, what reason we have to believe in such Organization who think about self to be individual - group prophet/s and in same time giving label to other people around them that they are mentally ill? In what ever context you want to put it, Literal or Spiritual. Definition of mental illness : any of a broad range of medical conditions (such as major depression, schizophrenia, obsessive compulsive disorder, or panic disorder) that are marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, or emotions to impair normal psychological functioning and cause marked distress or disability and that are typically associated with a disruption in normal thinking, feeling, mood, behavior, interpersonal interactions, or daily functioning - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mental illness

Yes, but this what you are talking about, going to theology, philosophy, interpretations ..... and not to science in strict way of what science is. Something that scientist can prove with scientific methods.

Do you go to doctor who "know how" to help in your sickness, but have no diploma for that? Do you go on his/their door because of your endless trust to people who proclaim that they can heal people, or you go there because he finished some education? There is people who can help without having certificate. But when he help you in wrong way you have no basis for asking him to "pay" you because he make your life or health to be problematic. You choose him to do job he is not qualified for. In this matter, JW members have big trust on human who take a lead. Well, you can, of course show trust to both group, with and without diploma. If that how it is with elders, only words of other people that this elder can be trusted without question, similar way of logic you can use on people (candidates for baptism) who have to proof how their deeds and intentions are good, too. Yes, this i like to hear. :)) So, this old ferry tails about how, after period of how congregants voting for elders, was also another period and that is, when holy spirit appointing elders, we now have that "biblical pattern" how in fact only legitimate way is when "traveling representatives" doing this. Well: 1) voting is wrong way 2) spirit is wrong way What are all those elders in and from period of 1) and 2) ? What are their "credentials", how much value have their spiritual service if way of appointing them was been administrative error of WT Society? Errors made by voters and by spirit, who have illegally done something for what they have no authorization? And CO today have such authorization, :))) Who put them on that position of CO? Spirit, voters, GB, or previous CO? :)))

That is why clergy in some churches can show evidence for what they know. Some Diploma. :)) Elders have no diploma or prove for credential. Do they have to answer on 80 or 180 questions to be accepted as servants. No, all they need is to be appointed by GB and Spirit or by CO. You would know better how it works today. This process is different. JW's are merely volunteers. All of them, GB, elders, members. Volunteers not need to have evidence for education level, or some formal degree for qualification in some field. They learning while walking. Somebody told/teach them in few sentences what they have to do, and that is that. :))) That is voluntarism. You don't need special knowledge, but wish, desire and good will to do something for free for other people benefit. As for baptism, person need to meet much less than 80 questions: - Do you believe? Do you repent? Do you love? Do you have faith? Perhaps, when Jesus speaking about knowing God as fundamental for eternal life, he meant on few basic points: love, faith and trust as evidences that God looking for to see in mind and heart of individual.

We have, it seems two sort of "burden" or "yoke". And two ways how implement this in person?s life. We have Jesus' "burden" he ask us to carry. And we see "Organizational" way of implementations of principles set by Jesus. Organization as such have need to broaden administrative system of ruling over people. If person want to candidate for some job, he have to give his CV and answer on questions by boss. If you want to be as volunteer member in one religious organization, not to be paid for work you done in own name, but under elders leadership, you are also obligated to be guided by some rules. It seems logical, BUT we have here some spiritual moments that make this 80 questions as human invention not empowered by spirit. In example of man who, after some time/hours of talking with Philip said, See, here is water! And this example is not unique in Bible.

If i understand few first verses of Genesis in right way, God did not originally plan for man to have: -patriarchal system -slavery -noble class -warriors -religious and secular leadership ....etc But this and more was part of Israel nation for centuries. What is righteous, and what is unrighteous before God and before human, is deep water.

Thanks @Arauna for participate with comment. To know someone's name is definitely very important. But it can be just beginning or start to get to know somebody. In some or many cases, all our "knowledge" about another person stops with this first step - knowing his/her name. We also have another thing with Bible names. Some of them (individuals) have more than one name. For example: Bible scholars said how Jesus has several names. Does he had each of these names only for separate period of time, and for special role he had for particular reason? Or does he has all this names in every and each period of time no matter of what his special name or title speaking about him and his participation in something? To know name or names is not sufficient for complete knowledge about person who carry that name. Perhaps it is "revelation" for people to see how God has the name - JHVH. But is that fact automatically bring them to position of having or not having "eternal life"? But on contrary too, for example, we have people of Moses time and before. Some verses give impression how Jew slaves in Egypt and Moses didn't know the name of God. But that not stopped them to worship him and to have hope in him. Even without knowing his name, they were in privileged position. God loved them and want to free them from slavery. God wanted to give them "eternal life" in promised land. Despite the fact they didn't know his name. By this i just want to show how God can do miracles and give favor and mercy and love to ignorant people - to people who don't know first and fundamental thing of every relation - The Name.

JW's preach about Kingdom, Armageddon, and Eternal Life. This eternal life shall be in the future, after the last ordeal/exam at the end of the Kingdom of Christ, that is, at the end of 1000 years of that Kingdom. The concept of eternity and therefore of eternal life for man is great desire of all people. No one wants to die, unless he is very old and infirm or severely ill or in great suffering. But many people, even under such circumstances, have desire to survive and live. JWs are not sure, will they get eternal life. But they have great hope for it, if they remain faithful to God, as they say. Because of such stand, it is interesting to note the famous words written in the Bible. "And this is an eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." - Mat 17 This is where we meet the equalization of terms. Knowing God and Jesus = Eternal Life. Conversely, eternal life = the knowledge of God and Jesus. What JW's doing to get knowledge of God (and eternal life as result)? They read the Bible, they read WT publications, they listen to lectures, going preaching ..etc. The program for getting to know God and Jesus consists of, for the newcomers, in the Bible study system, attending meetings, preaching, and baptism. Consecration and baptism should mean that these new members have had by then, to that moment (cca 6 months or 1 year) came to know God and Jesus enough to give their lives to Them .... and to have hope for future eternal life. Further question applies to both, newly baptized and those who have been "in the knowledge of God and Jesus" for decades. Do you have eternal life? Do you have it now? JW's are very sure how they know the truth and Them, now. What is the truth? To know Them. Jesus also said: I am The Way, The Truth and The Life. What Life? Eternal Life or some other Life? As result of what JW's know, we should, supposedly, conclude how JW's have: The way, the truth and the eternal life, because of how this facts are presented by them, about knowledge they have. JW's will say how they will get it (eternal life), after the end of 1000th year Kingdom. But Jesus said how eternal life IS knowing Them. When?.... when you/they will know Them? In 1 century, after every Jesus' lessons and speech? Or after teaching that people received by Apostles who had been "inspired"? Or after people have been educated by Russell' publications, and get to know Them in such way? Or through preaching methods incorporated by JW organization? Well, if JW's say how they will get eternal life in the future, that would mean how they don't know God and Jesus today. Jesus spoke about different logic: To know Them means you have eternal life. Do you know Them now? If you say, Yes, this would mean you have eternal life now. But i see another issue here, too. God (and Jesus) living from eternity to eternity. In that sense, all what is connected about knowing Them is outside life span of every human. Possibility to know God and Jesus is impossible to human, because we are not eternal. Even with future aspect that some of us will live forever, it is not enough time to be in position to collect (with mind and heart) all what is possible to know about Them. In our position today, as people who lives 70-90 years, it is also impossible to know Them in such short period. We coming to these questions too: About what knowledge (in quality and quantity) Jesus spoke? About what eternal life (when and what sort of life....You will be in paradise with me, today, or after 1914, or after Kingdom ends... etc.) Jesus spoke? ... or you can suggest some other questions too :))

* bold words mine To some extent, other individual has a power over us in a measure we give him a power over us. In some other cases we can't do almost nothing about that. In continue, about what was said about power, is issue of rebellion or resistance. Russell was not, as books say about him (WT publications), satisfied with his own religion and doctrines. In other words, his religion and doctrines of his religion had power over him and he didn't like that. For what ever reason he had. He showed rebelling and resistance to all that what made him unsatisfied, unhappy, unanswered ...etc. He has been in process of abandoning "old and bad" things and in same time looking for "new and better". He, in fact coming to be "an apostate", in context of what this word mean. A person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle. In the eyes of his parents, Church and congregational members, he was, in general, viewed as "rebellious son" and as "apostate". Is that bad? You say, and many say how Russell has not been, because of his action, rebellious and apostate. But on contrary, he had a power to go one level up, and he is considered, in WT Society and JW organization, as brave young man and truth seeker. But his past church was already "had the truth". Why he wanted "truth above the truth"?? :))) See, how things are the same today with WT Society and JW organization and their members who leave "religion of their parents". They are not "apostates" in context WT Society want to showed them (as bad and devil inspired individuals). They are "truth seekers"..... with various and different outcomes.

Partially you are right about my knowing church history. But tell me, did i get it right if i say, how every Organized Religion, including WT Society and JW organization, doing everything to make obedient members who will not questioning doctrines and leadership, regardless of various and different doctrines that are specific for each of them (religion)? If i am right in this perception and conclusion, than this is quite enough for/about "knowing church history". :))

That is because i am not source or medium to provide you religious spiritual light you looking for. As ex member of your church i have been in position you are now. "New and better" coming from Organization of people who take a lead. And as we all know these men do err, they are imperfect and are not inspired. And they proves that on daily basis. Here i will connect another comment: Russell was "rebellious" and looking for something "new and better". And he find something of that in Adventist teachings. And he accepted something what was "new and better", in his eyes and thinking. Because that what was "new and better" for him already existed in another "false religion" he latter left because of disagreements with established structures and doctrines. And what Russell have done? He moved some "new and better Adventist's stuff" into his movement, updated some old thoughts, made some modification, brought some "new" ideas. When he found, how there is no "hell" in Bible, did he introduce "new and better"? If people around believe in hell and you say how hell not existing, is that "new"? Maybe to some degree for them, but in fact no. You just say, make claim how hell not existing and said something Opposite to first common idea. What was replacement for "hell"? Death in Armageddon. Excommunication from congregation. What was purpose of hell? To explain people how they have to be good and not make God displeased and angry. In both cases, in religion with "hell", and in religion without "hell", we have expressed need to keep members to be in "fear" of God (and of human who operate in the name of God, too). And here you have how with time Religion of any sort, even Russell's WT Society operate and have not "new and better", but working in same frame under different terminology and scene. Teaching flock to be good is common task to all religion. And teaching them to be loyal to church they belong is also not something new.

I can agree. But, we all know also this. If you want to build new house on the same place where is old one, you have to do first step - tear down the old - and make place for new. Same is with ideology, doctrines, beliefs and faith. You have to tear down all what is old, poorly built and not good enough ... than there will be place (in our heads) to introduce new and better. Illustration with house/head is correct. In verbatim situation perhaps you can choose some other place for building new house. But you can't replace own head with new head. :))) So, all battles are in our heads. Perhaps all what is received stay forever in some corner of our mind. But every old idea have to be disassembled into small pieces, into such small pieces that they can never be assembled again.

.... same for me. I am 58 and not consider self as old. What a deceiving :))))

First i wish to tell is, thanks for private information you shared here. But, we all have issue with God. Fallen angel and Adam were among first free will persons who showed some doubts about God. Even people, who showed many positive atributes in Jew or Christian context, had issue with God, too. With such history, it would be simple to say how humans always and all the time had some sort of issues with God. And how such relation and interaction could be called as "normal". Even in your experience you showed how you still love and helped your "apostate" brother despite knowledge and warning (by God and by Organization) that you have "to cut" all bonds to such person who willfully and with stubborn rejecting God's help through you and elders and congregation. By this, you also belong to group of people who have sort of "issue with God". You are not able, or not willing "to obey God's command" on this subject. Does your behavior (feelings) proves how you respect or disrespect: -Your conscience -God -Bible -Congregation -Elders -Family bonds -Humanity too smart = apostate :)))) ..... cause - effect . In other words do you tell us how God was involved in his girlfriend death? And how he also suffer because God not protecting him any more? The last WT publication i can recall on issue of God's protection is explanation how God will not protect his servants as individuals but as a group. This i found as "issue". Because "the group" is made from "the individuals". No individuals = no group. Russia is example. Does God protecting now, Russian JW brotherhood as a Group or as a Individuals?

This is less serious "sin". Much more worst would be for him and his family, if he talk something against or opposite to official Ideology. In that sense, i think how, family members would be forced to "shun" and cut family bonds with him, as in JW scenario.

Whether is this applicable to singular or plural entity, we are all in danger.

... to be one with the Spirit, to have the Spirit,.... https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-february-2017/who-is-leading-gods-people-today/ CAN YOU EXPLAIN? In the first century and today, how have those taking the lead among God’s people been . . . empowered by holy spirit? assisted by angels? guided by God’s Word? WT magazine assure readers how there is no space for idea of "to be inspired by Spirit" for individual or group of people In the first century and today. They using terminology "empowered by spirit" and making distinction from expression "inspired by spirit". To be empowered is not the same as inspired, as they explained this context about First Congregation and today JW organization as Legal Successor of 1st century Christianity, in this WT study edition magazine. Well, WHO is the wiseman? :))

quote from source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1990083 2 It is vital that we identify this man of lawlessness. Why? Because he is intent on undermining our good standing with God and our hope of eternal life. How? By getting us to abandon the truth and to believe falsehoods in its place, thus diverting us from worshiping God “with spirit and truth.” (John 4:23) It is evident from his actions that this particular lawless element opposes God and his purposes, as well as his dedicated people......So the expression “man of lawlessness” must stand for a body, or class, of people......8 Who are they? The evidence shows that they are the body of proud, ambitious clergymen of Christendom, who over the centuries have set themselves up as a law unto themselves. This can be seen by the fact that there are thousands of different religions and sects in Christendom, each with its clergy, yet each conflicting with the others in some aspect of doctrine or practice. This divided state is a clear evidence that they do not follow God’s law. They cannot be from God. ..... 9 Thus, this lawless one is a composite person: the religious clergy of Christendom. ...... 0 History shows that those in this man of lawlessness class have displayed such pride and arrogance that they have actually dictated to rulers of the world. Under the pretext of the doctrine of ‘the divine right of kings,’ the clergy have claimed to be the essential intermediary between the rulers and God. They have crowned and dethroned kings and emperors and have been able to turn the masses for or against rulers...... This explanation is from 1990 w90 2/1 pp. 10-14 . But it is older than 1990 article. WT Society have no power over GB as Gerrit Lösch explained in his deposition to US Court. But GB have power over anointed individuals and over elders class and over members too. GB explained that they are essential as mediators or substitution to Christ between people and JHVH. To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites." Watchtower 1979 Nov 15 p.27 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men" We are aware of teaching that WT Society said clearly how FDS is GB. Other people who thinking about self as remnant of spiritual Israelites have no significance and important role to "great crowd", because GB is class who guide people to safety and New World. By such idea, GB taking same blame as "Christendom Clergy". As we all accepting, Bible is two edge sword. Because of that, all what WT Society using against so called Christendom, can be used against them and GB. Clear and simple :)))