Srecko Sostar

I guess you're always right and you've never changed your own beliefs?

The explanation is simple. The people who led the people (spiritual leaders) set the standards of worship and declared it true. The same thing happens in today’s religions. WTJWorg is a close example to us. So all religious followers will explain to you better than I do why their worship is the only right one. The answer is given.

If the claim of biblical scholars, both those inside the WTJWorg and those outside, is correct, Judaism and Christianity are unique in the kind of worship that is monotheistic. Both acknowledge YHVH as the Father, and consequently the Messiah as the Savior who comes from that Father. Both institutions are considered to be the bearers of the one true worship of the one true God. in the eyes of WTJWorg it is the same Organization of God because one came from the other. I think JW members will confirm that to you, and you are among them, right? In some of Jesus' statements, he affirmed that one should do as the religious leaders of Israel say, but not imitate them in their deeds. If we take Jesus' words literally, then we could conclude that the Pharisees and other religious factions in the 1st century knew what "true worship" was and that they possessed it institutionally. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." -Matt 23 Here, Jesus teaches the people to follow the theological teachings of the Pharisees. So the Pharisees knew what true worship was?

I do not understand. Was Judaism from the time of the ancient patriarchs and the nation of Israel in the time of Moses a true worship? ...... or is it just an exclusive right of Jesus-type Christianity? "True worship" should not be divided or attributed by the name of the religion (individual/s, organization) and the historical time of the event and existence of a particular religion, or perhaps it should? And this sounds a bit like the "world started" with the USA and with JW's in this country. I hope it doesn’t end with the USA (Apologies to the citizens of this country if they think this offends them). The example of Cyrus the Great has just been cited that it would not be considered that religious freedom could only have arisen in a country that emerged from 1776 CE. For it could then be argued that not a single true worshiper of God inside one organized religion could have appeared anywhere else in the world but only in an American-type democracy. The historical moment when this happened shows that WTJWorg lawyers were dealing with that kind of issue at the time. Today, WTJWorg lawyers have to deal with CSA scandals (tragedies) that happen in the organization. Unfortunately, JW lawyers and JW representatives who come to court are increasingly bringing up untruths and deceptions to defend WTJWorg. Those former JW attorneys had different concerns. The role of WTJWorg's Legal Department is changing in the USA and other Western countries. What are they defending in the courts? Religious freedom? Truth? Or Company?

I can't believe my eyes that a man of your caliber wrote this absurdity. quote: Cyrus II of Persia, commonly known as Cyrus the Great, is mentioned as one of those historical figures who allowed different religions to exist in his empire. The Edict of Cyrus is a 539 BCE proclamation by Achaemenid Empire founder Cyrus the Great attested by a cylinder seal of the time. Although the Cyrus Cylinder does not refer directly to the Israelites exiled by Nebuchadnezzar, the edict is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as authorizing and encouraging their return to the land of Israel and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. Freedom of faith and religion is an achievement which existed in some ancient civilizations and is not a novelty of the 20th century. And it is certainly not a merit of WTJWorg.

Generations of JW members, both those who came “from the world” and those born because their parents are JW members, have brought themselves into a state of obedience to GB “prophets” even though “prophecies” (and doctrines) were false. According to the quoted biblical passage, it is obviously a great fear not to offend the “prophets” but also not to fall under the condemnation of the “false prophet” as this would mean excommunication from the JW community of believers and spiritual/physical "persecution". As for the title of the topic. “Normality” wasn’t even before the pandemic, so I don’t see why people would aspire to the old state. Obviously they are not aware that the "old normal" was not good, but they have become accustomed to such a state. After a while, this "new normal", no matter what it looks like, will become "normal" because people will have to adjust and accept what will be inevitable. The “old normal” has steered the world into decay, and the “new normal” will not deviate from the “old path that leads to ruin”.

I’m not sure if it’s possible to collect data on the annual revenue and annual expenditure of all WTJWorg companies, and there are thousands of them. Why I say thousands. Because in addition to those big and famous names that we associate with several legal bodies, there are thousands of assemblies/congregations that are essentially small branches of large companies worldwide. What do I want to say? Several data could be found in the JW Yearbooks. Some information can be found online. But to sum up all the money (income and expenses)? PS - Seeing the entry and exit of money by state or by branch is a difficult task.

:))This description is very similar to the descriptions of those people who believe in hell.

:)) this is so good. Dmitar is in this forum "club", but in the same time he isn't.

His claim about our "secret" communication is absurd. This could be due to some kind of paranoia, misinterpreted events on the forum or simply throwing a “hook”. As you can see, I did not react to his statement because it is meaningless, and if anyone wants to believe in stupidity, good luck to him.

Please look, what was the ancient nation of Israel, for example (not to mention Abel as first witness and period of Moses and formation of nation)? Well they were Witnesses for YHVH, right? I guess that's how they felt and how God wanted to be. And they were not Christians.

Thanks for the extended comment. You mention looking through "human eyes" and through "God's eyes". I fear that the assurances that man can look through the “eyes of God” will lead us nowhere. Looking at the spiritual is connected with faith. And faith is a personal feeling and state of mind. I think it is not necessary to go further in explaining what our beliefs bring to us, because it is a part of our everyday life that provides material evidence of the faith of individuals and organizations. Iinteresting, it is a constantly unclear state of what an organization is and what believers are within an organization. That betel member talks about a lot of bad things in the organization, you said. What does he mean? Does he mean the legal aspect of a company that has poor corporate regulation? Or does he mean people who are responsible persons and represent a legal entity in a broad conglomerate of a multitude of different legal bodies that have been legalized before the authorities? Does he mean the spiritual or some other condition of the believers who are members of the organization? .... etc. It is not clear to me what this is supposed to mean: God and the control of his people. What kind of control is this? People want to have control over people. So does God want to have control over people too? If he lets go of Armageddon then he will gain some control over events. But I don't think he will ever have control over people.

I am just saying that it was in the past and today there are people who can be considered Witnesses for YHVH, and whose status before God is their own or our interpretation.

If we believe that people are sincere in their intentions, at least in the beginning of their activities, then we can believe in the good intentions of Russell and the then Autonomous Assemblies. I suppose the “movement” begins in a way that the people within it have a more liberal position. Than when the “movement” ceases to be a mere movement against the established Church institution that led to the gathering of people in the Bible Students formation. In time, it became clear that these independent groups of people should be kept together, in a uniform manner, if they wanted to maintain the specific direction. On the other hand, this uniformity and striving for unity easily becomes institutionalized and organized like those of other institutions that caused the BS Movement to emerge. The existence of a class of elders (and an extra class of FDS with its Helpers) and those who are not, in today’s JW assemblies has brought WTJWorg closer to the Catholic Church hierarchy against which JW preaches. A Catholic priest talks about hell, and a JW priest talks about Armageddon. Theology differs but the authoritative position of both is the same. An administrative breakpoint could be found, and you mentioned some date about it. The breaking point is just the culmination of the onset of dissatisfaction in people who worked on making change happen in a period of time before the change was announced in public. WTBTS continued to make administrative changes after Rutherford.

You should not react like that to the "defeat" you have experienced. @JW Insider defends the facts, not me. But I am glad that he understood my comments and found time to find excerpts from the WT literature that indicate the thing we were talking about.

Apologize, but it doesn't even need to be said in such clear words. It is enough to observe a change in doctrines so it can easily be concluded that JWs do not believe in many things that were an integral part of the beliefs of their predecessors (no matter of their name). In any period of time from the first apostles of Jesus to the present day. ( Moreover, JWs do not even believe in those doctrines that have recently been an integral part of “true worship” (I’m talking about periods from a few months to a few years back, even not need to go in past decades). Jesus ’apostles expected the establishment of the Kingdom durin their lifetime. JWs today claim they (apostles) had the wrong expectations. So JW today reject, apostolic, their then faith, their belief system on the matter). Keep in mind one more thing about this issue, please nicely. Has it ever been said in WTJWorg literature in the last 50 or more years that “new light” came into the world because JW believed that “old light” was a false teaching? But the JWs stopped believing in “their own old light” (not only in the "light" of Bible Students). So if JWs are willing to reject, to stop believing in their own "biblically established beliefs" then it will be even easier for them to abandon the beliefs of Bible Students. Simple.

If we start from a simple formula in which today's JWs claim that YHVH has always had its Witnesses on this planet, which we can call Jehovah's Witnesses or Witnesses for Jehovah or otherwise, then Yes, one type of Jehovah's Witnesses celebrated Christmas at a time in the past. If one wants to deny this, then one should make some facts or provable claims that could mark a certain group of people (Christians in last 20 centuries period) like/such as the Bible Students, that they can in no way be Witnesses for the true God YHVH.

Although I have not read in detail every Charter that has been published by WTBTS, from what I have observed in these texts, there is little more than just the printing business itself. The charters give the impression that WTBTS wants to be a spiritual beacon for people.

Independence ended with the arrival of Rutherford. Also keep in mind that in my comments on Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses, I have always had in mind one common link that has always connected them, regardless of the individuals who have later sided with this or that schism. Continuity of WTBTS. All those who remained faithful to their "spiritual mother", the so-called "earthly organization" or WTBTS Company, regardless of changes in external name / label are proof that all beliefs, past or present, are what binds them together. They have common legacy. That’s why the claim how JWs once celebrated Christmas is correct. Because today's JWs who do not celebrate Christmas any more are members of the same Organization under whose auspices and authority Christmas was celebrated in the past. Today’s JWs can defend themselves by claiming that they do not believe what Bible Students once believed, and that therefore it is not their past and legacy. But such a claim is completely incorrect. Because both, former and current believers, are members, they are followers of one and the same Corporation that has the legal continuity.