Srecko Sostar

Any ideas why Aus info' went back 50 years but American database only goes back 23 years ?
 

My wife just fixed me some popcorn ... I think I will just sit back and watch this one ....

This remained me on common fact. World is full of "legalism" and courts making "legal" trials and decisions. Even JWorg has "legal system". But many times they all making wrongs and injustices.

This remained me on common fact. World is full of "legalism" and courts making "legal" trials and decisions. Even JWorg has "legal system". But many times they all making wrongs and injustices.

This could easily be true. It's also possible that a JW in good standing at the Australian Branch leaked it. It's also possible that it was cleaned up to make it look like many fewer Elders and MS were involved. Some things seem very unlikely to us because we all have preconceived ideas about what such data would look like.
I responded when I saw this because the word "proof" and "proves" were being used. This is evidence, not proof. I think that JTR recognized this when he said we needed "hard data." None of us collected the evidence. None of us produced the spreadsheet. I'm confident that this is good evidence, but that doesn't make it proof.
For example, we don't know but that perhaps all Elders and MS were supposed to have been mostly removed from that sheet before it was handed over. This seems unlikely, but things like this have happened. Statistics are often manipulated. On a much more minor topic I gave my own experience where I was "in the room where it happened" as one particular statistic was changed so that the WTS appeared to have a better report than it actually got when the statistic was announced. 
Also, TTH, the abusers reported were not 100% clergy in all the other reports given over to the ARC. In fact, some of the commentary about other entities run by churches, but not by clergy were part of the investigation.
Outside of the ARC, I have only followed a few cases haphazardly, but I saw several reports where I could tell they were not just including "clergy." The Southern Baptist cases, for example, included many church volunteers along with clergy. Wikipedia says:
On February 10, 2019, the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News published an investigative report into widespread sexual abuse within member churches of the Southern Baptist Convention. The report found since 1998, roughly 380 clergy, lay leaders and volunteers had faced allegations of sexual misconduct, leaving behind over 700 victims.[1]

Jesus willingly walked into a known death trap ... but it was constructed by the Jews, and sprung by the Romans after an unfair trial .... but it was a legal  trial ... and it was done by the Roman government having military occupation of Israel.
 
 

Of course, it is understandable. I made just comment on that in  this way to soften arguing about what sort, class of people made more bad deeds of CSA inside some institution, are they those individuals with more or less important position inside some structure.
At the end, it is of less important in whole this issue (do we have higher numbers of elders or ordinary members who made crime). Main question is how management  and members respond on such crime. What they doing when that happened?
Both group can "hide" this problem. But, as it is obviously clear, "those in position of leadership and who need to be role model" for other people inside institution bear greater responsibility and have to be "charged" more for doing and/or not doing.

Bearing in mind that the name Witnesses has the general meaning that they are people - members belonging to one religious community, then it is true that they do not prophesy, maybe just assume, predict, expect.
predict: to say that an event or action will happen in the future, especially as a result of knowledge or experience - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/predict
 But, it is interesting, on what basics WTJWorg, who gathering members - Witnesses, do collect and multiple knowledge  that make them to be "sure" and bold to assume, predict, expect and interprete Bible verses and world events? Do they (WT GB and Helpers) doing that in similar way as Jethro Ibileke did when made comment about Awake magazine? Will they repeat errors? Our experience says: Yes.   

Yes, I do. 🙂 
I understand that the only organization which the Father approves of, is the one built on Christ, the chief cornerstone.  Isa 43:10,21; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Heb 11:10; Rev 21:23; 22:5; Acts 7:48; Rom 8:9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 4:4
I understand that Jesus began ruling in the first century and that the symbolic “thousand years” is over, and the Great Tribulation/Armageddon is here.  Ps 110:1,2; 1 Cor 15;24-28
I understand that the WT is Satan's end time masterpiece, used to deceive the "remaining ones of the woman's seed". Gen 3:15; Dan 11:10; Rev 12:17,15; Matt 24:24; Acts 20:29; Col 2:8; Rev 13:10; 20:7-9
I understand that the elder body is the “man of lawlessness” sitting in the Temple of God, “where it does not belong”.  Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; 1 Pet 2:5; Eph 2:21; 2 Cor 6:16; 1 Cor 3:16,17
I understand that Jesus Christ, and the anointed as a “new creation” will “inherit the earth” as Abraham’s offspring, along with all of God’s children.  Gen 28:13,14; Ps 2:8; Col 1:16; Rom 4:13; Gal 3:16
I understand the anointed “144,000” are both human and spirit. 2 Cor 5:17; 1 Cor 15:44; 1 Pet 1:23; John 3:5; 1 Cor 15:50; Rev 21:17
I understand that every JW who truly desires to worship God in spirit and truth, should LEAVE the organization behind, including one’s “garment”/identity and “possessions”/teachings.  Matt 24:15-18; Luke 17:31-37; Rev 18:4-8
 
Do you believe that the gift of "truth” from the Father and Christ, includes false and failed teachings? 
"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."  James 1:17
It is interesting that this scripture uses the phrase, "shifting shadows."  Darkness is always darkness.  Teachings that were never truth to begin with, can never be viewed as "light". "New light" is none other than a shifting shadow.  
 
https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2018/01/armageddon.html
 
 
 

Just some comparisons for anyone interested:
1 Sam 17:8-10
Goliath stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel, “Why do you come out and line up for battle? Am I not a Philistine, and are you not the servants of Saul? Choose a man and have him come down to me. 9 If he is able to fight and kill me, we will become your subjects; but if I overcome him and kill him, you will become our subjects and serve us.” 10 Then the Philistine said, “This day I defy the armies of Israel! Give me a man and let us fight each other.”
Nakah – “kill”
נָכָה nâkâh, naw-kaw'; a primitive root; to strike (lightly or severely, literally or figuratively):—beat, cast forth, clap, give (wounds), × go forward, × indeed, kill, make (slaughter), murderer, punish, slaughter, slay(-er, -ing), smite(-r, -ing), strike, be stricken, (give) stripes, × surely, wound.
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“They kill the widow and the resident alien and murder the fatherless.” Ps 94:6
Harag – “kill”
ג hârag, haw-rag'; a primitive root; to smite with deadly intent:—destroy, out of hand, kill, murder(-er), put to (death), make (slaughter), slay(-er), × surely.
Ratsach – “murder”
רָצַח râtsach, raw-tsakh'; a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:—put to death, kill, (man-) slay(-er), murder(-er).
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
 Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can’t say, ‘A woman killed him.’” So his servant ran him through, and he died.  Judges 9:54
Muwth – “kill”
מוּת mûwth, mooth; a primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively, to kill:—× at all, × crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy(-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro(-mancer), × must needs, slay, × surely, × very suddenly, × in (no) wise.
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` 
“You desire and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and wage war. You do not have because you do not ask.”  James 4:2
Phoneuō - “murder”
φονεύω phoneúō, fon-yoo'-o; from G5406; to be a murderer (of):—kill, do murder, slay.
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“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,”  Matt 23:34
Apokteinō – “kill”
 †ἀποκτείνω apokteínō, ap-ok-ti'-no; from G575 and κτείνω kteínō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:—put to death, kill, slay.
 

CC:
EVERYTHING you said in the above post is true .... but is completely beside the point ... and completely misses the POINT of the discussion.
It is similar to me asking why automobiles are manufactured in the United States ... and you give a dissertation of the nitrogen cycles of various soil conditions, optimized for corn production... all interesting discussions, and somewhat related as to whether of not corn will grow well, but all the verbiage, charts and graphs, and stuff, related to corn. have NOTHING to do with the question of car manufacture !
NOTHING you have said above ... NOTHING WHATSOEVER, has anything at all to do with answering the ONLY question I brought up...
"WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?"
My best guesses looking at how Jehovah has acted, what He has done, and what He has said about BOTH types of homicide, show that he DOES NOT view them the same way
There are irrefutable facts, that can be directly observed, from the Biblical record.
What I am trying to codify, and correctly understand ...is NOT what ... that can be clearly seen ... what I want to know is ...
WHY?
I want to Grok.  THAT is my agenda.
Your agenda appears to be to defend something that was NOT disparaged, completely off topic.
 
 

Hmmmmmmm.... that brings up an interesting question ... for those angelic forces that war against God ... are there any mortal casualties on either side ... or is it just a big shoving match?
If two angels fight ... does one get killed and the other perhaps only seriously wounded?
It seems to me that the term "war" would result in massive casualties ( ... that means DEAD, for those in Rio Linda ...) on at least one side, and possibly BOTH sides ... otherwise it would not be a war at all.
Here is where I might insert a joke about them ripping each others' feathers out .... but I will refrain.

Without HARD DATA ..... there is no way we will EVER know.

Apologize, just want to little tease you :))
Leadership position? But JW members would say: We don't have human leaders, because our Leader is One, Jesus. :)) If JWorg has no leaders than no single leadership position is available for any of member. 
Elders and other in this WTJWorg nomenclature are in same "level" with rank-and file members, because "you are all brothers" :)) 
In such perspective, looking on whole Organization as Union, as United Brotherhood where all are equal before God, every other "worldly" or "false religion" standard is useless for emphasis .... especially for internal, congregational conversation and for this Forum too. 

I believe this is true, although I'm not sure what it proves. It seems that only just over 10 percent of the abusers in that list were Elders or MS. (Taken only from two samplings of 200 near the front and 200 near the end.) With Witnesses, even parishioners have a "title" or "role" in the congregation.
In the majority of reports from other religious organizations it is usually those in leadership positions or persons with "titles" of some kind, teachers in religious schools, etc. But this has not always been true. Some other religious organizations have given reports that included parishioners in their lists of abusers.
Also, a review of newspaper articles about individual criminals associated with JWs more often go for the story where an elder or MS is the abuser.
But there are still a couple of potential problems with the lists. One is that the question is often about whether the abuser was in the role of Elder or MS at the time of the first abuse. I noticed a case on the very first page where the answer was only a Parishioner, yet that same person was also removed from their position as Elder or MS. (Also there are cases where the person was an Elder and not removed.) When cases take a long time to process or be reported, or there were multiple cases of abuse, the abuser might very well continue to progress to MS or Elder until the abuse is reported or made known.
Also, I hope this one is much less likely, but when the abuse is first "reported" it is not yet (or sometimes ever) technically considered an actual case of abuse, only an accusation. This leaves time to remove the elder or MS from his position, as he should be 'free from accusation.' This removal can even happen without a committee, just based on the suggestion to the accused 'until things are cleared up.' So when an accusation is finally taken seriously enough to treat as a real case of abuse, this might be based on the fact that a previous accusation was not taken seriously and now it must be.
Therefore the "first" case of abuse can be timed to the "second" accusation, after the precaution was taken of removing the elder or MS from his position. I know of a physical abuse case that was handled this way. And in another case (not abuse) I know my father was involved as one of two elders rushing to get a generally inactive Witness disfellowshipped to reduce any embarrassment on the congregation before the incident hit the papers.

Arauna:
You misapply what I am saying in every way.
I am not saying that warfare is acceptable for Christians .... I am saying that to the best of my knowledge ... warfare is NOT considered by God to be murder.
That is my best guess looking at how Jehovah has acted, what He has done, and what He has said about BOTH types of homicide.
There are irrefutable facts, that can be directly observed.
What I am trying to codify, and correctly understand ...is NOT what ... that can be clearly seen ... what I want to know is ...
WHY?
I want to Grok.

... and they have rendered a comprehensive judgment, which is being fought, tooth-and-nail.

He reading Awake in wrong way. :)))
Article said how MANY EXPERTS, Medical Journal VACCINE and JOHN M. BARRY ..... PREDICTED this and that.

https://www.nationalredress.gov.au/support/explore
i am receiving newsletter about this issue, and as we see JWorg has no intention to join.
 
 
Institutions named in the Royal Commission that have not yet joined the Scheme* Intending to join Date expecting to join (calendar year) Hunter Aboriginal Children’s Services (HACS)     Interchange Shoalhaven     Jehovah’s Witnesses     Presbyterian Church NSW & ACT Intending to join First quarter of 2020 Presbyterian Church TAS     Presbyterian Church VIC Intending to join First quarter of 2020 Presbyterian Church WA     RG Dance Pty Ltd     Satyanada Yoga Ashram     Seventh-Day Adventist Intending to join First quarter of 2020

It seems it will never ever go away.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/jehovahs-witnesses-sexual-abuse-wales-17700382
 
Ex-Jehovah's Witness elder describes how he was abused by fellow worshipper as a boy
John Viney was a church elder when his own daughter revealed she had been assaulted by her uncle. Now the 67-year-old has described how he himself was systematically abused for five years.
 

https://www.nationalredress.gov.au/support/explore
i am receiving newsletter about this issue, and as we see JWorg has no intention to join.
 
 
Institutions named in the Royal Commission that have not yet joined the Scheme* Intending to join Date expecting to join (calendar year) Hunter Aboriginal Children’s Services (HACS)     Interchange Shoalhaven     Jehovah’s Witnesses     Presbyterian Church NSW & ACT Intending to join First quarter of 2020 Presbyterian Church TAS     Presbyterian Church VIC Intending to join First quarter of 2020 Presbyterian Church WA     RG Dance Pty Ltd     Satyanada Yoga Ashram     Seventh-Day Adventist Intending to join First quarter of 2020

You play the same old record but you have no proof at all. 
Tom you do not know who has or is committing the abuse in JW Org. 
1. Because it is hidden in congregations around the Earth
2. Because the GB / Lawyers are still hiding that 23 year American JW Database. 
So how can you know Tom ?
You just make it up as you go along, and most times it's just to promote your own books. 
Very selfish Tom. 
 

He reading Awake in wrong way. :)))
Article said how MANY EXPERTS, Medical Journal VACCINE and JOHN M. BARRY ..... PREDICTED this and that.

2014 the annointed generation of 1914 that will not see death.
2033 or 2034...!
W03 12/15 pp 14-19
👇 WT links the 120 yrs of noahs day to our day so since 1914 and 90 yrs has passed already so there is only 30 years left so they are giving the suggestion that 2034 might be the one finally get right 😆😆😆
 

He reading Awake in wrong way. :)))
Article said how MANY EXPERTS, Medical Journal VACCINE and JOHN M. BARRY ..... PREDICTED this and that.