Srecko Sostar

Intelligence is not needed ? Perhaps education is less important,because someone else can read to uneducated people, BUT you need  at least average IQ for understanding world around you and various/specific religious doctrines. :))

It’s weird that you think that way. How many times in WTJWorg magazines is it discussed and explained why JWs don’t do this or that. Why some customs are rejected and some are not considered wrong. Eg. why not celebrate a birthday, new year, May 1st etc. Then historical examples from the Bible or "worldly" history are given of what happened during the two birthday celebrations and other events. The magazine then concludes that birthdays have a “pagan origin,” and that this is the main reason why JW’s don’t celebrate birthdays today. What has happened in distant history is becoming a moral principle, a doctrine for the 21st century.

So, to today's JW's it is very important what the history of this or that is. Why is the history of a "mountain-like organization" not important to You, to them?
 

According to one article in WT magazine, JW members living in "spiritual paradise" already. This sort of paradise is possible because of several reasons. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2001162  Reasons are:
1. JW people know what is God's purpose
2. spiritual paradise is an environment that is pleasing to the eyes and soothing to the nerves, allowing one to enjoy peace with one’s fellowman and with God
3. people approaching Jehovah’s Witnesses, seeking help to understand the Bible and to learn about spiritual paradise
4. Jehovah’s Witnesses are active in 235 lands and territories
5. people can found a spiritual paradise in association with Jehovah’s Witnesses and their knowledge about God and love in community
6. people doing God's will
7. people need to associate with a congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses
Question is: If from some, any reason WT Society with all Legal Entities that support, organize and unites JW members by giving them proper knowledge aka "spiritual food" for living in "spiritual paradise", ceases to exist .....will the "spiritual paradise" also disappear?

If the GB want to show that they are aware of their "own limitations" (like S. Lett's Jesus), then, the JW’s should only have one 10 minute lecture (basically reading the Bible text) per week or month in the assembly and the rest of the time they should sing and laugh.

And only one issue of WT magazine in a year. Preferable would be Awake with articles about animal and nature to praise Creator .
:))

I think it is "closed" for only 489 members. :))

No, Arauna. More important, crucially important to save life is - FLEE.  

Closed club? Anna, what's happening here.

It’s 2 minutes long.  I suggest listening to it twice.  Notice the undertones of ridicule directed against the “auTHORity” of Jesus Christ.   See if you detect the exemplified authority of the GB, placed on the same level as God’s word.  And how Jesus was aware of his “limitations”, not having authority “to teach others things that originated in his own mind”.  But this man? He displays no humble attitude before God’s Son.   Even though the GB persists in fabricating deception originating from THEIR minds, you are made aware that they are above and beyond such limitations! 
Honestly, JWs.  This is a man who told lies about the organization’s problem with child abuse. Now, he is blatantly exalting himself above Christ and his authority.  If any of you believe you will receive eternal life by “sticking close” to this false christ/prophet, and not Jesus Christ, I fear for your lives.  Will you continue to look the other way and excuse his and all of the GB’s actions, thinking that God will correct them?  God looks at us individually and views OUR choice to serve Him and His Son, or to serve men who expect obedience to them.  (Joel 3:14)
“Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 47 They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”  Luke 20:46,47
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.” Matt 7:15 
“Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.”  Col 2:8
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matt 7:21-23
 
Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.  Jer 14:14
 
 
 

Interesting point - worthy to think about.

Agreed. But possibly for slightly different reasons. And it's all based on this word "immediately" in Matthew 24:29. If only that word had been more associated with "soon" or "after that" or "next." I have seen other reasons not to think of this as any kind of measurable generation if it can be said to apply to the generation before the synteleia/parousia in 70.
We have good reason to see this part of the prophecy in Matthew 24 as applying to the final parousia, but there is very little reason to apply anything else in Matthew 24 to the final parousia, except for the lessons we are expected to draw from everything that happened to literal Israel*Judea*Jerusalem:
(Romans 15:4) . . .For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope. . .
(1 Corinthians 10:11) Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
So for the final parousia, we will still need to be on the watch, but this time with no life-span measurable generation. We will still need to be careful not to be fooled by things we think are signs, like wars, earthquakes, food shortages, pestilence, etc. -- because this parousia is something we must always be ready for. We will still need to rely on the holy spirit when persecutions come and we need to defend our faith, or give a witness about the Kingdom to the entire earth. We still expect the faith of the greater number to cool off, etc. If it happened over a period of less than 40 years for THAT synteleia/parousia, then it will obviously happen in great measure over the 1000's of years that Christians might have to wait for the final parousia.
You already know that I love to weigh in on this topic, perhaps too much. I'll definitely continue this discussion later.
 

There must be a mound of WT paperwork a mile high,concerning "generation", and what Jesus meant. Add to that, every JW's opinion on what it means. Okay, a good 2 miles high.    Does it occur to anyone that Jesus was referring to its spiritual meaning and not the physical meaning?  
"Praise the Lord!
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord,
Who delights greatly in His commandments.
2 His descendants will be mighty on earth;
The generation of the upright will be blessed.  Ps 112:1,2
That generation began in Genesis.
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”  Gen 3:15
As did this "generation" - 
"His people have acted corruptly toward him; this is their defect* -- they are not his children but a devious and crooked generation."  Deut 32:5
The "righteous", "upright", "faultless", have God as their father.
"By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was approved as a righteous man, because God approved his gifts, and even though he is dead, he still speaks through his faith."  Heb 11:4
The unrighteous, wicked, have Satan as their father.
so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God who are faultless in a crooked and perverted generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world    Phil 2:15
 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?"  Acts 13:10
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."  John 8:44
We choose our spiritual father by our actions, our belief, and our desire to follow or not follow, Christ's teachings.   If we search the scriptures we see God's children weave through the entire Bible.   Jesus was speaking of generated "seeds" from either the Father in Heaven (the righteous), or those of Satan, the devil (the unrighteous)
It doesn't have to be difficult to understand.  The problem arises when leaders put literal application to spiritual timetables.  They constantly have to cover their butt for their failures.  
 
 
https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/11/generation.html
 
 
 

I think that all this of the generation could have, in fact, a very simple explanation: Jesus was only referring to the living people in his day, and that they would see the destruction of Jerusalem in 70.
What complicates it "a little" is the intersection between the prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem and the prediction of His return, of His parousia.
The apostles, in their ignorance, MIXED both issues. So Jesus' response could lead us to MIX the fulfillments. Even more complicated if we look for TYPES and antitype between the first and second fulfillment ...
What I see less complicated is that the ONLY statements unequivocally referring to the parousia, on his return, are those of
(Matthew 24: 29-31).?.?. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30? Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31? And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
All these followed by verses Mt.24: 36 and until the end of chapter 25
 
The fact that the statements about the "generation" appear in the midst of statements that ONLY will be fulfilled in the parousia could make us think that they CAN ONLY refer to the parousia
It happens that the biblical writers did not record the words of Jesus in a logical or chronological order, as we would do in our time. Many times they used a linguistic model called chiasm. This mix -apparently- the ideas forming an X (... topic for another day)
Thus, we find in the conversation of the Mount of Olives a mixture of events that had to do with the year 70, then for the parousia, and then back to the year 70.
(Luke 21:11, 12).?.?. And there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.
second coming
(Luke 21:12). “But before all these things happen, people will lay their hands on you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons.
year 70
(Luke 21:25) . . .Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars. . .
 
second coming
(Luke 21:29-32) . . .With that he told them an illustration: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees. 30 When they are budding, you see it for yourselves and know that now the summer is near. 31 Likewise also you, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all things happen.
 
year 70
So perhaps the famous words about generation are some kind of interpolation between the 70 and parousia fulfillments, but related to the fist one. year 70 and the destruction of Jerusalem:
If we apply the generation statement to the period 33-70, the discussions of 1 / when it starts 2 / how long it lasts 3 / when it ends ...  IT ENDS! what happiness!

Note that the current WT idea makes the FDS only appointed but not yet ruler over all the Lord's belongings, but that Russell was considered to have already been RULER of ALL the Lord's belongings, from the time Russell saw himself --alone-- as the FDS (FWS).
Rutherford had a chance to consider the views of the so-called "governing  body" of the WTS board, but when a majority of that board disagreed with him, Rutherford found a way to dismiss them. (Using a legal loophole that also applied to himself, so that he would also have needed to dismiss himself if his real goal was to be legally fair and ethical.)
But Rutherford also road on the coattails of Russell's authority as a means to continue the idea that he was in Russell's place, and no one would dare go against Russell without also realizing they were going against the Lord's appointed instrument. Inconsistently, Rutherford was also able to argue that Russell's paper "last will and testament" was worthless because God's organization can't be tied to the "will" of a human. The Watchtower itself admits that any usefulness of the Editorial Committee under Rutherford was already as good as abolished by 1925

...

Notice that the usefulness of an editorial committee is considered to be the opposite of the Lord himself running the organization.
And just another example. Raymond Franz, in Crisis of Conscience, mentions the time when Rutherford wanted to change the doctrine of the "superior authorities" in Romans 13 to mean Jehovah and Jesus, instead of following the correct explanation that Russell had, and which we now have again.. (R.Franz recalls that it was either this issue or another one just as obviously unscriptural.) Fred Franz objected because he was aware that it was false, and he expressed his objection to Rutherford. So Rutherford had Fred Franz write the article with the false doctrine in it.

These stories merge exactly with stories that my Bethel table head told us about Rutherford, among other persons who related stories of his Rutherford's autocratic objection to making use of anything like a "governing body."

If you'd like. Go ahead and believe it was some sort of Governing Body. 
I'm only referring to the fact that the Watchtower publications (and MacMillan's "Faith on the March," too) nearly BRAG about the fact that "Russell was the Society," and never had to take any advice or share his leadership with anyone else. As I said above, the need for the editorial committee, and Society officers, was only to be invoked if something were to happen to Russell.
In an April 1894 Watch Tower, Russell himself stated :

Notice that the board of directors was understood not to have any control or usefulness until Russell died. Hard to see how they could be "governing" in any way if they were not in any way useful while Russell was alive. The office of Russell was considered to be that of RULER of ALL the Lord's belongings, already, now that the Lord had already arrived in 1874. This was stated in the March 1 1923 Watchtower, too:

...

The world ruler is in the Watchtower's italics. Not mine.
As I said, however, you are free to believe what you want here, say whatever you'd like,  but I will take the Watchtower's word for it in this case.
I won't pick on every little thing you got wrong, but this part was also problematic. The Watchtower incorporated in 1884, so Rutherford was not his attorney at that point. Rutherford was only 15 years old in 1884. Wikipedia should clear it up:
". . . .joining the Bible Student movement, and he was baptized in 1906. He was appointed the legal counsel for the Watch Tower Society in 1907"
Or if you still think that he was his lawyer first before becoming a Bible Student, you can try the Proclaimers book and the 1975 Yearbook:
*** yb75 p. 83 Part 1—United States of America ***
Not long thereafter, in 1906, J. F. Rutherford symbolized his dedication to Jehovah God. Wrote Brother Macmillan: “I had the privilege of baptizing him at Saint Paul, Minnesota. He was one of 144 persons that I personally baptized in water that day. So when he became president of the Society, I was especially pleased.”
In 1907 Rutherford became the Watch Tower Society’s legal counselor, serving at its Pittsburgh headquarters.
I hope, for once, that you won't try to drag this out, and divert and still try to say that all these facts are wrong and that only you can do actual correct research. As you said to me above:
So, yes. I've heard this dozens of times from you. And everyone who reads carefully has always been able to see through this game of yours. Or you can accept what the Watchtower publications say about it.
 

@Srecko Sostar  I agree with what you are saying but here in England (the parts I have lived and live now) most JWs are lazy. Many cannot be bothered to even study the Watchtower before the meeting. On the ministry it is terrible, they walk very slowly so as to take more time between houses because they don't really want to be there. Many will only do the minimum hours. They use the Org more as a social club. They do just enough of everything to keep the Elders happy. 
I agree with you, what they teach is truth mixed with deceit. And at first we 'swallow' it all. 

If you don't mind my different opinion. I would say how basic elements in message that JW's preaching; better new world, perfect life and health, no death, peace and security, Jesus and God etc. are something what almost all people want/wish.   
The system of repetition and persuasion of how to achieve all this, goes into our conscious and unconscious deep enough that we don’t feel the need to question anything that have source in new found religion. In fact, we self-censor ourselves and do not allow critical thinking. That is, the Organization has succeeded in instilling in its members the feeling that everything that is happening in terms of doctrine and technical implementation of learning does not even need to be re-examined. Only what comes from outside, the “worldly,” needs our utter caution and suspicion.
Deception imbued with elements of good and even true, creates in us an inability to think differently. Our mind is dulled. The mind is no longer sharp to discern fraud that growing within ourselves and danger of our confidence in the Organization. “Danger comes from outside” and “I am sinful and can't trust myself” - these are thoughts that obscure view about possibility and about very good chance how "the truth" is much else other but not really truthful. 
Why we stay so long in this mode and state and sometimes refuse to see obvious? Why we convince ourselves how "this must be the truth" when "truth" is not truth any more but another interpretation?
You and me and many similar to us are not in any intellectual shortcomings, but we were deceived.

You can judge that I thought it through too quickly, but I don't think it's true . I'm not saying that I ended up with the right answer, but I surely didn't think it through very quickly. I'm still thinking through it.
It's just a matter of perspective. I can just as easily judge that only those who finally gave in to a false definition of "generation" have been defeated. In fact, to be honest, I believe that Brother Splane was defeated by the perceived need to compromise with the earlier tradition that says we will still be in the generation of 1914 when the end comes, and he thinks there might still be a way to claim we were right, even after that generation has completely died out. 
Again, it sounds like you are judging that someone searches through old material for someone else to tell them what to think. It doesn't sound like anything I have ever done, but perhaps you think that it is?
Again, a matter of perspective. For myself, I have to be reasonable using my own powers of reason, not someone else's, even if they have searched through old material to try to tell me what to think. And I have to use sensibility to look at reality. For me, that reasonableness and reality just happens to provide evidence for a different solution. 
This is absolutely correct. Let's say that a man like Russell, for example, had made a prophecy in 1914, saying:
'As of 1914, the generation now alive at this time [THIS GENERATION] will see "Judgment Day" before this generation passes away completely.' 
It is very true that this means that even someone who was born in 1800 MIGHT see it, if "Judgment Day" arrived by 1915 and they lived to be 115. It is also very true of someone born in 1852, as Russell was, that they MIGHT also see it, if "Judgment Day" arrived by 1967 and they lived to be 115. It is also very true of someone born in 1904, that they MIGHT also see it, if "Judgment Day" arrived by 2019, and they lived to be 115. However, if Russell made this same prophecy in 1880, that THIS generation alive at that time will see judgment day before that generation passes away, then:
It is very true that this means that even someone who was born as early as 1766 MIGHT see it in 1881, assuming they lived to be 115.  It is also very true that this means that someone born in 1870 MIGHT see it as late as 1985, assuming they lived to be 115. So it's the same with Jesus. If he said that people in his audience who were part of that generation would live to see a judgement day in that generation, then:
If Jesus said this in 33 then it means that even someone who was born as early as 82 BCE MIGHT live to see that judgment day, assuming it happened the very next year, and they lived to be 115. If Jesus said this in 33 then it means that even someone who was born in 23 CE MIGHT live to see that judgment day, even if was delayed as late as 138 CE, assuming they lived to be 115. (But that person would see it by 70 CE, of course!) If you use your same logic for a generation alive in 1914, who had been born in 1904 so that they were about 10 years old, and could recognize the sign in that year. then we have the same thing. And if you think that people shouldn't have to live until 115 then your own point is more reasonable:
So if Russell made a prophecy anytime around 1904 that "Judgment Day" would arrive in the 1914 generation, then he would be right, as long as "Judgment Day" would have occurred before around 1980 at the latest. Some of that generation would still be alive around 1980.
But you can't stretch "this 1914 generation" much past that, using your reasoning above.

The Head of the anointed Body/Church, is Jesus Christ.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6
It is not possible for any "living stone" who are members of this Body, to speak a lie.  They are united under one Spirit.
"There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all."  1 Cor 12:4
"This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth." 1 John 5:6
"Sanctify them by Your truth.  Your word is truth."  John 17:17
The sealed "living stones" are all, pillars of truth.   (1 Pet 2:5)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

"But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. "  Gal 2:7-9
For the WT leadership to believe that this verifies proof of a governing body in Jerusalem, is self-gratifying, supporting their desire to build their "temple".  On the contrary, each apostle is a "pillar" of truth, supporting the foundation of the Temple of God.  
"These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."  1 Tim 3:14,15
"Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit."
Each anointed one sealed into God's Temple, also becomes a "pillar"..of truth.
"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name."  Rev 3:12
"But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life."  Rev 21:27
It is ironic that the organization is referred to, as "the truth", in light of all of its falsehoods.   The "truth" can only apply to the Temple of God.  Again, I think of "Beliefs Clarified" which covers over falsehoods by glorifying them, as acceptable.  How deceitful.  
 
 
 
 
 

- obedient and submissive - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1989685
WTJWorg spreads teachings how members must doing exactly this before Elders and GB.
Paul said; NO, you DON'T HAVE TO be OBEDIENT AND SUBMISSIVE to human leaders in "Jerusalem" or in your congregation!
 

- obedient and submissive - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1989685
WTJWorg spreads teachings how members must doing exactly this before Elders and GB.
Paul said; NO, you DON'T HAVE TO be OBEDIENT AND SUBMISSIVE to human leaders in "Jerusalem" or in your congregation!
 

1 Thess 5:1-3

Well, he was pushed into a corner and had to borrow some old light.  That's the way the ball bounces.🙂

This is err premise. Sorry.
What was built from the start (my start was in 1975) WT publication teaches how generation is 70-80 in length and is literally connected with the year 1914 as start point to be able to count when "signs" will culminate in Armageddon. 
Because of that JW's are/was put in "corner" with this. "Overlapping" invention is just try how to get out of the corner. 
 

Now is come to be clear from where S. Lett borrow his words about final part of last days, or last days of last days, or ... :)) it doesn't matter.
It seems how S. Lett reads very old WT publications and than get some ideas for new light, clarification and so on :))