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Srecko Sostar

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  1. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in 1914   
    Is @Leander H. McNelly  another Phantom of the Opera who are created just for down-vote? :)))
     
  2. Confused
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in Who are now in charge "over all Master's belongings"?   
    Main issue is about present time. I would like if you like to comment this moment first  
    GB as representatives of 144000 are, in this moment, individuals who benefit in using material assets that is in possession of WT Society. Perhaps there is some other members of 144000 who serving in some Bethel facilities and are in position to use  accomodation and some similar benefits of been in some particular service of that kind. 
    Title looking for another perspective. Not about future, because in a future all of them (GB and rest of 144000) should be in Heaven. Of course, as i recall latest idea presented in publication, there is explanation how some or all of them, will survived Armageddon  and stay flesh and blood to teach and guide rest of JW's. In that case your questions are important.
    But, i would like to hear your thoughts about present circumstances when GB declared how they had been appointed (in 1919) only for sharing food. Here is more details what include Jesus' "belongings on Earth". 
     These “belongings” include the growing “great crowd” of “other sheep.” - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20090215/They-Keep-Following-the-Lamb/
     In addition to providing nourishing spiritual food “at the proper time,” “the faithful steward” would be appointed over the entire body of Christ’s attendants and assigned to manage all of Christ’s interests on earth, “all his belongings.” What would this entail?
    8, 9. What “belongings” is the slave appointed to manage?
    8 The slave’s responsibilities include the supervision of the material facilities used by Christ’s followers to carry out their Christian activities, such as the world headquarters and branch offices of Jehovah’s Witnesses, as well as their places of worship—Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls—throughout the world. More important, the slave also oversees spiritually upbuilding programs of Bible study at weekly meetings and periodic assemblies and conventions. At these gatherings, information on the fulfillment of Bible prophecies is dispensed, and timely direction on how to apply Bible principles in daily life is given.
    9 The steward’s responsibilities also include the supervision of the all-important work of preaching “this good news of the kingdom” and making “disciples of people of all the nations.” This involves teaching people to observe all the things that Christ, the Head of the congregation, commands to be done during this time of the end. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20; Revelation 12:17) The preaching and teaching work has produced “a great crowd” of loyal companions of the anointed remnant. These “desirable things of all the nations” are undoubtedly to be counted among the precious “belongings” of Christ administered by the faithful slave.—Revelation 7:9; Haggai 2:7. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20070401/Loyal-to-Christ-and-His-Faithful-Slave/
    Because GB, after gave this "food in proper time" (is it proper time when they late cca 96 years?) aka information on the fulfillment of Bible prophecies is dispensed, and timely direction on how to apply Bible principles explained in 2015 WT study material, i would like to here what you think:
    1) Did Jesus gave up of His authority and responsibility to take care about His belongings on Earth in 1919? 
    2) If Jesus had choose to take away this privilege of managing His possession by hands of GB in 2015, did he choose someone else on Earth to do this job, and do we know who? Why Jesus decide to do this.... in fact is this His decision or decision made by GB? Is this sort of degradation on behalf of GB? Did Jesus found GB to be negligent in manage?
    3) When Jesus was on Earth he had nothing against Juda to take care about material things aka money. He allowed him to take care. Why GB think this Bible verses to be prophetic and to apply on them, and later changed interpretation of particular  verses? 
    4) Does Jesus managing his Earthly possession by own hands now? How we can "prove" answer?
    ....add your question :))
  3. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from ComfortMyPeople in 1914   
    We raised issue on some other level. They witnessed to their faith and hope, and to some literal manifestations. But precisely said, they not witnessed in a way that we consider as word "witness" primatly means. It would be as someone today gave testimony as witness on Court about something, and he say to Judge: "I didn't saw what happened but I believe i know what happened because this was promised to me that will happen. And things that i saw are exactly that."   
    Religious people today depending on testimonies made by people in the past who not witnessed to some events, to some they did. Also, people today put trust on people who wrote about this things and also to translators. And finally, people put their trust on spiritual mediators aka church leaders, who are strong force that drive faith and hope of people in particular direction. 
    People in Jesus' days was under promise and expectations that day will SEE supernatural events as Proof how individual who doing this is Send By God. I think how WT Society take this position in their explanations. So, miracles are of important things that surrounding life and faith of people in Israel from the very beginning. Without miracles, many of events described in Bible, would never happened and history will be different and present will be different. No matter did such miracles really happened or not. Christian faith, before and today, would be in some other format without miracles. Christians in 1 century was totally in miracles of all kind. Today, things are different. 
    faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.
    If i understand what i read before about this correctly, faith he had (Russell) gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.
    It seems how "faith" (own or other' people) is not trustful. It is not what makes things come true. Faith of man, who is blind, who believe he will see, not makes him cured of blindness because of mere faith. Someone who has power to do miracle, have to cure him from blindness. Than, this man' faith have value and justification. Otherwise is superstition, empty hope. Faith (to believe something) not need knowledge. Because knowledge would say, miracles are not possible. Do we have some "special" knowledge? WT Society teaches how 1 century miracles are not possible today. 
    Russell had some "special" knowledge and some "special "faith". And that ended in past. His legal heirs wants to make all that as progress on a way to "ultimate knowledge and faith".  
  4. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in 1914   
    The reasons of strict attention to history is this:
    If you do not know and understand history ... you are DOOMED to repeat it.
    This is based on the FALSE premise that you are limited to do only one thing, or the other thing.
    Since you are not concerned with our history ... you are doomed to repeat it.
    ..... as you have just demonstrated.
  5. Haha
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Leander H. McNelly in 1914   
    Do you mean this?
    "Special knowledge", in sense it was different than that of main Christendom (Catholic church) but also similar or sourced in other smaller religious groups. And "special faith", in sense he want to believe he found "new and better" or even as he had been chosen for "mission". I wasn't studied about this things as i should. @JW Insider handled with more materials (and have better memory than me :))) to bring out so much or enough quotes (WT publications) to support discussion, to give corrective perception on issues like this, and to introduce reader into unknown possibility, reality.
    WT Society and today successors of religious inheritance (all doctrines and methodologies used to find "the truth") aka GB carry a sort of "burden" of that past. Perhaps they are somehow "forced" to stay on  such track, path of the past, don' know. If they are aware of fact  how past doctrines are not bringing to the future but contrary, holds them in ambys of past spiritual wrongs, because they are afraid of making clear and painful cuts, it is understandable, but also makes whole situation hopeless. It can be, based on experience we see till today, how easiest way to escape from spiritual "errors" they found in idea of "progressive understanding". According to this, Bible Truth never changed, but human (GB) understanding does. To this idea one thing also remain not understandable: what is Bible truth? Because no one is able to say - where we are now standing, on what point in this progress?! How much steps exists from point A to B in this progressive understanding? Because they made a claims how human living at close end of this system they assured themselves, as many time before, how this  "present truth" must be good enough and supported by God. With this attitude you are on a good way to be deceived and self deceived.
     
  6. Downvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Leander H. McNelly in 1914   
    We raised issue on some other level. They witnessed to their faith and hope, and to some literal manifestations. But precisely said, they not witnessed in a way that we consider as word "witness" primatly means. It would be as someone today gave testimony as witness on Court about something, and he say to Judge: "I didn't saw what happened but I believe i know what happened because this was promised to me that will happen. And things that i saw are exactly that."   
    Religious people today depending on testimonies made by people in the past who not witnessed to some events, to some they did. Also, people today put trust on people who wrote about this things and also to translators. And finally, people put their trust on spiritual mediators aka church leaders, who are strong force that drive faith and hope of people in particular direction. 
    People in Jesus' days was under promise and expectations that day will SEE supernatural events as Proof how individual who doing this is Send By God. I think how WT Society take this position in their explanations. So, miracles are of important things that surrounding life and faith of people in Israel from the very beginning. Without miracles, many of events described in Bible, would never happened and history will be different and present will be different. No matter did such miracles really happened or not. Christian faith, before and today, would be in some other format without miracles. Christians in 1 century was totally in miracles of all kind. Today, things are different. 
    faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.
    If i understand what i read before about this correctly, faith he had (Russell) gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.
    It seems how "faith" (own or other' people) is not trustful. It is not what makes things come true. Faith of man, who is blind, who believe he will see, not makes him cured of blindness because of mere faith. Someone who has power to do miracle, have to cure him from blindness. Than, this man' faith have value and justification. Otherwise is superstition, empty hope. Faith (to believe something) not need knowledge. Because knowledge would say, miracles are not possible. Do we have some "special" knowledge? WT Society teaches how 1 century miracles are not possible today. 
    Russell had some "special" knowledge and some "special "faith". And that ended in past. His legal heirs wants to make all that as progress on a way to "ultimate knowledge and faith".  
  7. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to JW Insider in Who are now in charge "over all Master's belongings"?   
    You exaggerate a bit, in implying that the rest of the anointed might get nothing. But this is really the perfect question that shows what's wrong with this theory. Even if you think the Jerusalem Council was a governing body, you can't square this particular outcome of events with the Bible. There are several principles that it goes against.
    (James 2:1-4) . . .My brothers, you are not holding to the faith of our glorious Lord Jesus Christ while showing favoritism, are you? . . .  4 If so, do you not have class distinctions among yourselves, and have you not become judges rendering wicked decisions?
    (Galatians 2:6) . . .But regarding those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me, . . .
    (Matthew 23:6-10) . . .They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.
     
  8. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Who are now in charge "over all Master's belongings"?   
    I wouldn't think real estate would mean anything as it would have no value in the New World. 
    And money would not mean anything either. 
    Buildings would still exist of course but would be on no financial benefit. No one to sell them to or rent them to. 
    But another question arises. If only those 8 men are the F&DS, and only the F&DS get the reward. Then what happens to the rest of the Anointed Remnant ?  Do they get nothing because they were not loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics ? 
  9. Confused
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in Who are now in charge "over all Master's belongings"?   
    In view of the foregoing, what can we conclude? When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment—over all his belongings. Those who make up the faithful slave will get this appointment when they receive their heavenly reward, becoming corulers with Christ. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20130715/who-is-faithful-discreet-slave/
    “All his belongings” over which the “faithful and discreet slave” class is appointed must refer to all the spiritual things that belong to him on earth in connection with his established heavenly kingdom - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101973027 
     
    1) members ??
    2) real estate and money ??
     
  10. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in THE REIGNING 144,000   
    Thanks for this, Shiwiii.  I looked up Rev 7:14,15 myself in WT's Interlinear and then went to Strong's 3485 for the meaning of the word, "ναῷ":
    naós (from naiō, "to dwell") – properly, a sanctuary (divine dwelling-place); a temple (sacred abode), the place of divine manifestation. 3485 (naós) refers to the sanctuary (the Jewish Temple proper), i.e. with just its two inner compartments (rooms). 
    It proves not only that the anointed are the "dwelling"/"divine habitation" of God's Spirit, (1 Cor 3:16,17), the "temple"/"divine habitation" of 2 Cor 6:16, and the mobile "tabernacle"/"sanctuary"/"tent, booth, dwelling" of God's Spirit, that is blasphemed by the Beast/organization in Rev 13:6,7.  (STRONGS NT 4633: σκηνή)
     
     
  11. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in FAITH. IN WHOM OR WHAT and When ?   
    Could you explain this?  
  12. Haha
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Who are now in charge "over all Master's belongings"?   
    Perhaps it should be in this order:
     
    1)  real estate and money ??
    2)  members ??
     
  13. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Witness in Who are now in charge "over all Master's belongings"?   
    In view of the foregoing, what can we conclude? When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment—over all his belongings. Those who make up the faithful slave will get this appointment when they receive their heavenly reward, becoming corulers with Christ. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20130715/who-is-faithful-discreet-slave/
    “All his belongings” over which the “faithful and discreet slave” class is appointed must refer to all the spiritual things that belong to him on earth in connection with his established heavenly kingdom - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101973027 
     
    1) members ??
    2) real estate and money ??
     
  14. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Anna in 1914   
    Yes, and that according to Bible chronology, the FDS was appointed in 1919. So if 1914 was questioned, when were the FDS appointed? It would remove that whole aspect of what we have been taught, including the brothers being in prison. 
    I agree though that in reality it shouldn't change much about the authority of those taking the lead, because the scriptures say to be obedient to them. And I agree with the sister, I thought it was nothing new either (regarding the FDS only being the GB). But still, everyone is aware that Jesus was supposed to have appointed a specific group to provide spiritual food. If 1914 was removed, that small specific group would be dispersed and would include anyone who was feeding others spiritually, as you have suggested. All this would remove the thought that the GB are the only channel God is using, although G.Jackson admitted that it would be presumptuous to think that they were the only chanel. However I don't think he, or any of the others have put this in writing in any of our publications though. So unless someone has read Jackson's ARC deposition, they will be under the impression that the FDS, therefore the GB  are the ONLY chanel God is using, and therefore to question anything they say is tantamount to going against God himself. A few know this is not true, and the GB themselves think it's not true, but most  r&f believe it. (As you know, this was the reason why I got kicked out of one forum*. And this is  also why it appears that we "worship" the GB, because anything and everything they say is gold and must not be questioned, even if it could be wrong....because they are not infallible and can err...). 
    *Questioning God is allowed, but questioning the GB is not! How strange is that?
  15. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in 1914   
    Don't worry about that. As they moved "appointment over all belongings" to the future, they can make same with "appointment for sharing spiritual food" in the future too. It would need some deep thinking how to manage this issue, but "believe me", it is possible. :)) And JW's will not feel the change. 
    JW's not feels any change about "all belongings". The same Society still have all influence over "belongings". And we know what "belongings" includes. JW's aspect still stay the same. Only many of members now have to go to some other congregational meetings because of "merging". Are "mergings" product of new doctrine? Did GB give info on: Who are now in charge "over all belongings"? (good idea for new topic, it is made now) I think that was not explained in WT study articles, not even in a simple edition :)) 
  16. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in 1914   
    Do you mean this?
    "Special knowledge", in sense it was different than that of main Christendom (Catholic church) but also similar or sourced in other smaller religious groups. And "special faith", in sense he want to believe he found "new and better" or even as he had been chosen for "mission". I wasn't studied about this things as i should. @JW Insider handled with more materials (and have better memory than me :))) to bring out so much or enough quotes (WT publications) to support discussion, to give corrective perception on issues like this, and to introduce reader into unknown possibility, reality.
    WT Society and today successors of religious inheritance (all doctrines and methodologies used to find "the truth") aka GB carry a sort of "burden" of that past. Perhaps they are somehow "forced" to stay on  such track, path of the past, don' know. If they are aware of fact  how past doctrines are not bringing to the future but contrary, holds them in ambys of past spiritual wrongs, because they are afraid of making clear and painful cuts, it is understandable, but also makes whole situation hopeless. It can be, based on experience we see till today, how easiest way to escape from spiritual "errors" they found in idea of "progressive understanding". According to this, Bible Truth never changed, but human (GB) understanding does. To this idea one thing also remain not understandable: what is Bible truth? Because no one is able to say - where we are now standing, on what point in this progress?! How much steps exists from point A to B in this progressive understanding? Because they made a claims how human living at close end of this system they assured themselves, as many time before, how this  "present truth" must be good enough and supported by God. With this attitude you are on a good way to be deceived and self deceived.
     
  17. Haha
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from JW Insider in 1914   
    Don't worry about that. As they moved "appointment over all belongings" to the future, they can make same with "appointment for sharing spiritual food" in the future too. It would need some deep thinking how to manage this issue, but "believe me", it is possible. :)) And JW's will not feel the change. 
    JW's not feels any change about "all belongings". The same Society still have all influence over "belongings". And we know what "belongings" includes. JW's aspect still stay the same. Only many of members now have to go to some other congregational meetings because of "merging". Are "mergings" product of new doctrine? Did GB give info on: Who are now in charge "over all belongings"? (good idea for new topic, it is made now) I think that was not explained in WT study articles, not even in a simple edition :)) 
  18. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to JW Insider in 1914   
    Of course, there's also an implication throughout the context of Acts, that God does not give that holy spirit to those who obey men. That's one of the reasons for this very topic of 1914, as uncomfortable as it might seem to even question it.
    Of course, obeying God as ruler and not men, doesn't preclude us from "obeying" our congregation elders (Heb 13:17). But there is no contradiction here, because the word used for the word obey here has a range of meaning. And that range of meaning is pinned down in the very context of Hebrews 13 and elsewhere. 
    In fact, we might as well deal with it because there will be some who think it is "disobedient" to even consider the questions about 1914. It's the same as questioning God's arrangement, some say. Just like questioning 1925, or the hourly quotas for publishers and pioneers, would have been the same as 'questioning the Lord himself' in Rutherford's day.
    When Hebrews 13 says "Be obedient to those taking the lead among you" it's obvious that the term "among you" referred to congregation overseers/elders. We extend this to mean the elders who preside in a "headquarters" arrangement from the various Branches, especially the Governing Body residing in the United States Branch. But the word here does not mean "obey" in the sense of "you must obey God as ruler." In Acts 5:29 that term includes the idea of submission to a ruler or magistrate (i.e., God).
    The definition of "obey" in the context of Hebrews 13:17 is perfectly summed up in this verse that doesn't even use the word obey:
    (Hebrews 13:7) . . .Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith.
    The root meaning of the term is actually "persuade." Hebrews 13 uses the verb "peitho" here, and Peitho was the goddess of persuasion. That's actually the first meaning in Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
    1. Peitho, proper name of a goddess, literally, Persuasion; Latin Suada or Suadela.
    2. persuasive power, persuasion: 1 Corinthians 2:4 ἐν πειθοι — accusative to certain inferior authorities.
    Strong's NT Definition is:
    πείθω peíthō, pi'-tho; a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):—agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.
    Note that "obey" hardly makes the list.
    Even the NWT doesn't say in Hebrews 6:9 that "in your case we are obedient to bettr things." Instead it says:
    (Hebrews 6:9) 9 But in your case, beloved ones, we are convinced of better things. . .
    In the very verse after Hebrews 13:17, the word "trust" is used, in these of being "persuaded" or "convinced" that we have a good conscience.
    (Hebrews 13:18) . . .Carry on prayer for us, for we trust we have an honest conscience, as we wish to conduct ourselves honestly in all things.
    I know you didn't say that this type of obedience contradicts our Christian duty to question and therefore to make sure of all things. But Hebrews 13 often comes up by some as a reason to deflect from that Christian duty.
  19. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in 1914   
    Do you mean this?
    "Special knowledge", in sense it was different than that of main Christendom (Catholic church) but also similar or sourced in other smaller religious groups. And "special faith", in sense he want to believe he found "new and better" or even as he had been chosen for "mission". I wasn't studied about this things as i should. @JW Insider handled with more materials (and have better memory than me :))) to bring out so much or enough quotes (WT publications) to support discussion, to give corrective perception on issues like this, and to introduce reader into unknown possibility, reality.
    WT Society and today successors of religious inheritance (all doctrines and methodologies used to find "the truth") aka GB carry a sort of "burden" of that past. Perhaps they are somehow "forced" to stay on  such track, path of the past, don' know. If they are aware of fact  how past doctrines are not bringing to the future but contrary, holds them in ambys of past spiritual wrongs, because they are afraid of making clear and painful cuts, it is understandable, but also makes whole situation hopeless. It can be, based on experience we see till today, how easiest way to escape from spiritual "errors" they found in idea of "progressive understanding". According to this, Bible Truth never changed, but human (GB) understanding does. To this idea one thing also remain not understandable: what is Bible truth? Because no one is able to say - where we are now standing, on what point in this progress?! How much steps exists from point A to B in this progressive understanding? Because they made a claims how human living at close end of this system they assured themselves, as many time before, how this  "present truth" must be good enough and supported by God. With this attitude you are on a good way to be deceived and self deceived.
     
  20. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in 1914   
    We raised issue on some other level. They witnessed to their faith and hope, and to some literal manifestations. But precisely said, they not witnessed in a way that we consider as word "witness" primatly means. It would be as someone today gave testimony as witness on Court about something, and he say to Judge: "I didn't saw what happened but I believe i know what happened because this was promised to me that will happen. And things that i saw are exactly that."   
    Religious people today depending on testimonies made by people in the past who not witnessed to some events, to some they did. Also, people today put trust on people who wrote about this things and also to translators. And finally, people put their trust on spiritual mediators aka church leaders, who are strong force that drive faith and hope of people in particular direction. 
    People in Jesus' days was under promise and expectations that day will SEE supernatural events as Proof how individual who doing this is Send By God. I think how WT Society take this position in their explanations. So, miracles are of important things that surrounding life and faith of people in Israel from the very beginning. Without miracles, many of events described in Bible, would never happened and history will be different and present will be different. No matter did such miracles really happened or not. Christian faith, before and today, would be in some other format without miracles. Christians in 1 century was totally in miracles of all kind. Today, things are different. 
    faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.
    If i understand what i read before about this correctly, faith he had (Russell) gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.
    It seems how "faith" (own or other' people) is not trustful. It is not what makes things come true. Faith of man, who is blind, who believe he will see, not makes him cured of blindness because of mere faith. Someone who has power to do miracle, have to cure him from blindness. Than, this man' faith have value and justification. Otherwise is superstition, empty hope. Faith (to believe something) not need knowledge. Because knowledge would say, miracles are not possible. Do we have some "special" knowledge? WT Society teaches how 1 century miracles are not possible today. 
    Russell had some "special" knowledge and some "special "faith". And that ended in past. His legal heirs wants to make all that as progress on a way to "ultimate knowledge and faith".  
  21. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in FAITH. IN WHOM OR WHAT and When ?   
    @Witness Thank you.    Those events from 1914 onward were, as Jesus put it, “a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matthew 24:8)  pr section 7 pp. 25-28 Wt’s Greek Kingdom Interlinear:  “Will rise up nation upon nation and kingdom against kingdom and will be famines and [earth] quakes down on places; all but these (things) beginning of pangs of birth”  Matt 24:8
    1914?  You have had children.  Since when do birth pangs/pains follow birth?  And why would the Watchtower not translate their Bible as their Interlinear reads, as “beginning of pangs of BIRTH” if not to support their lie about 1914?
    New International Version
    All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    New Living Translation
    But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.

    English Standard Version
    All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

    Berean Study Bible
    All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    Berean Literal Bible
    And all these are the beginning of birth pains.

    New American Standard Bible
    "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
    And yes, I dug out and dusted off my copy of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the GREEK SCRIPTURES. 1985. 
    And sure enough it says " all but these things beginning of pains of birth".
    Surely this is another example of going beyond the things written, especially as the GB state clearly that they are NOT inspired, so they have no excuse for changing the word of GOD. 
  22. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to JW Insider in 1914   
    You are saying that they (GB) hang on to 1914 because if they get rid of it, they relinquish a Biblical base of authority. It's "nice" to have a Bible passage that talks about you and it's even "nicer" when that particular passage mentions a measure of authority and trust in advance of even greater authority and trust.
    I'm just saying that the reason they see the passage as speaking about themselves is because of 1914 first. Based on the importance given to that date, they expect to see certain actions that Jesus must have taken, or that it would seem reasonable for him to take. So it's kind of backwards to imply that they hang on to the date because of the authority. They hang onto the authority because of the date.
    But I'm also saying that this authority would be there anyway. Sure, they lose a little if they give "FDS" back to all the anointed, or even if they spread that authority around to include all the elders, or all Witnesses who support [feed] other Witnesses in any way, materially or spiritually or emotionally. (Recall that the verse once meant the anointed feeding the anointed, because the domestics were the anointed, too.)
    Common sense tells us that the purpose of elders in a congregation is to provide teaching and examples to follow and good judgment when it comes to dealing with difficult matters that might arise. We follow their lead. We listen. We copy their example. They persuade us to follow with good teaching and good examples.
    How much more would we think that the ones we consider qualified as elders over the global congregation would be worthy of even more respect. And we would be just as willing or more to follow their lead, listen, copy their example, etc.
    This is why it really came as no surprise to many Witnesses that the GB took upon themselves the entire role they interpreted to be the role of the FDS. To most Witnesses, the FDS always meant the GB anyway. The GB already represented the rest of the anointed in general, who had no say anyway. It was the GB, as head of the departments for Writing, Teaching, Service, Correspondence, etc., who were already considered the top of the "Bethel" headquarters hierarchy. It didn't matter if a certain thing was written by a member of the "other sheep," it was still considered to be under their direction. I actually asked a pioneer sister at the time if she had heard about the new GB=FDS doctrine right after that point from the Annual Meeting was announced on the website. She honestly thought that this was nothing new.
    In other words, something like this same respect for their teaching and example would have happened naturally as a matter of course. It has probably happened in every religion known to man. There have even been other religions that speak of their leadership councils as governing bodies. The level of agreement by the "rank-and-file" Witnesses (as Anthony Morriss III calls us) is just like other religions: a function of the emphasis given on the importance of this level of agreement.
  23. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar reacted to JW Insider in 1914   
    Russell was an excellent student of the Bible. He knew it well. He wrote about the Bible very capably. He preached it. He clearly had insights into many of its teachings and principles. He could use scripture to explain scripture. He could show excellent rational insight along with spiritual insight. He showed faith and he showed discretion and wisdom. And he was one of the most interesting men of his time, because was very aware of the world around him and used this knowledge to help explain some of these insights, but usually without getting too bogged down in the secular, political or scientific arguments of the day.
    But, faith or no faith, he had absolutely no insight or understanding about the end of the gentile times. He made no prediction about a world war. He made absolutely no prediction about 1914 that came true. He made absolutely no prediction about the gentile times that came true.
    Russell thought the "end of the gentile times" was the equivalent of the FULL ESTABLISHMENT of a Jewish government in PALESTINE, and the FINAL END of the United States government and economy, the FINAL END of the United Kingdom's government and economy, the FINAL END of the Turkish government and economy, the FINAL END of the Chinese, Japanese, Russian, German, French, Norwegian, and Mexican governments and economies, too. ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS would fall in 1914/1915 and it would be the FULL establishment of a divinely backed Jewish government in Jerusalem, with the re-establishment of Israel in Palestine.
    We can only pretend that he got something right, because he predicted that the chaos of the complete fall of all these non-Jewish governments, along with the rise of Israel in Palestine, would result in a time of trouble that would END in 1914, and then around 1904, he changed it to BEGIN in 1914, and indicated that this chaos in the vacuum of any human political institutions would end in a matter of months after 1914, most likely ending in 1915.
    Which part of his "insight" or "understanding" of this matter came true? Which part was correct?
    It's true he started some backpeddling on his understanding in 1904 (mentioned above), then 1910, then 1913. That's because his view included some expectations that he considered unlikely in view of the time left. 
    Russell didn't think Jesus' invisible presence would start in 1914. Russell didn't think that Jesus' kingship would start in 1914. Russell didn't think a great battle would be fought between Jesus and Satan in 1914. There's NOTHING that we NOW think happened around 1914, that Russell predicted, and he NEVER thought that any of those things (that we now believe about 1914) had happened even after he saw the events of 1914 for himself.
    So where does anyone get the idea that Russell got even one thing right about 1914 prior to 1914?
  24. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in 1914   
    @Srecko Sostar Fantastic comment. You are very deep thinking. But can you explain the last paragraph please. 
    Indeed the first century Christians, and even the Jews around at that time, were given lots of 'signs' in ways of miracles, curing all sorts of disease, turning water into wine, producing food enough for 10.000 people or more (I think they only counted the men), raising the dead et al.  It was as much seen by the physical eye as it was faith.  But now it seems, no one expects miracles.. No one but me maybe. 
    I loved the bit about Russell having 'faith'. gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.
    So it is today it seems with the GB and JWs. 
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    @Outta Here   Quote " And the understanding we have now, as proclaimed by the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses and supported by their application of Scripture, would appear to me to bear this out."
    More GB worshipping at it's best  The blind leading the blind and wow, that is a massive pit they've fallen into. 
  25. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in 1914   
    We raised issue on some other level. They witnessed to their faith and hope, and to some literal manifestations. But precisely said, they not witnessed in a way that we consider as word "witness" primatly means. It would be as someone today gave testimony as witness on Court about something, and he say to Judge: "I didn't saw what happened but I believe i know what happened because this was promised to me that will happen. And things that i saw are exactly that."   
    Religious people today depending on testimonies made by people in the past who not witnessed to some events, to some they did. Also, people today put trust on people who wrote about this things and also to translators. And finally, people put their trust on spiritual mediators aka church leaders, who are strong force that drive faith and hope of people in particular direction. 
    People in Jesus' days was under promise and expectations that day will SEE supernatural events as Proof how individual who doing this is Send By God. I think how WT Society take this position in their explanations. So, miracles are of important things that surrounding life and faith of people in Israel from the very beginning. Without miracles, many of events described in Bible, would never happened and history will be different and present will be different. No matter did such miracles really happened or not. Christian faith, before and today, would be in some other format without miracles. Christians in 1 century was totally in miracles of all kind. Today, things are different. 
    faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.
    If i understand what i read before about this correctly, faith he had (Russell) gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.
    It seems how "faith" (own or other' people) is not trustful. It is not what makes things come true. Faith of man, who is blind, who believe he will see, not makes him cured of blindness because of mere faith. Someone who has power to do miracle, have to cure him from blindness. Than, this man' faith have value and justification. Otherwise is superstition, empty hope. Faith (to believe something) not need knowledge. Because knowledge would say, miracles are not possible. Do we have some "special" knowledge? WT Society teaches how 1 century miracles are not possible today. 
    Russell had some "special" knowledge and some "special "faith". And that ended in past. His legal heirs wants to make all that as progress on a way to "ultimate knowledge and faith".  
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