THE REIGNING 144,000

[Witness]

And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, ¹⁰  and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kingsr over the earth.”Rev 5:9,10 - NWT

As a JW, this sounded accurate to me, since it fit the supporting doctrine that the “144,000” will rule strictly from heaven – “over” the earth...not within its vicinity, but from the spiritual realm.  What I have since learned about this scripture and Christ’s truth regarding where the anointed will be “ruling” from, has been an important turning point for me.

Notice how the organization’s own Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures breaks down vs. 10:

“and you made them to the God of us kingdom and priests and they are reigning upon the earth”

Here are a few other examples:

“And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”  Scripture4all.org

“…they will reign upon the earth”.  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5-10.htm

It is very rare to find a Bible translation using the phrase “over the earth” in this scripture. The organization’s latest pictorial depiction of the 144,000 kings/priests ruling in heaven was of a vast array of emerald green thrones where men appearing identical to one another and to Christ, gazed over the earth as Christ’s “co-rulers”.  I wonder what the anointed JW women feel about a female’s apparent transition into a man, who are clones of each other.  This teaching sounds ridiculous to me today.  However, since the role of JW women is repeatedly slighted, should we expect any acknowledgement of the anointed being both male and female?  I could be in error, but I haven’t seen any photos of women partaking in the magazines.

 There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  Gal 3:28

To be one in Christ does not mean the faithful sealed anointed take on the same physical appearance as Christ. All of the members of a fleshly body are distinctly different in appearance; working separately yet collectively, with the unified goal to allow the body to work efficiently.  It is the same in the Body of Christ. 1 Cor 12:15-20  All are given various gifts, and all are individuals with individual personalities. They have abilities reflecting the gift they receive.

 Paul described it this way:

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. ⁵ There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. ⁶ There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.  1 Cor 12:4-6

If they were all one part, where would the body be? ²⁰ As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 1 Cor 12:19,20

Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. ¹³ For we were all baptized byone Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. ¹⁴ Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many. 1 Cor 12:12-14

¹⁵ Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. ¹⁶ From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.  Eph 4:11-16

The 144,000 are the Bride of Christ under the New Covenant “woman”/promise.   (2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:29-32; Gal 4:26) It is curious that the WT's leaders rarely go into detail about this.  When I recall their latest illustration described above, I don’t believe the artist had the idea of “bride” in mind. I could only sense an aura of steely authority, without the needed compassion and love that Jesus exhibited and taught his disciples to nurture within themselves. (Isa 42:3; Matt 14:14; John 13:34,35; 1 John 4: 17; Heb 4:15)

Just as a bride and groom are not identical to each other, neither is Christ’s Bride of many members; either to Christ, or to one another, as the illustration erroneously shows. (1 Cor 12:29,30; Eph 4:11-13)  Marriage partners compliment and support each other in love.  It is the same with the Body of Christ, being united in one Spirit that imparts love, faith and knowledge of Christ and the Father.

The organization’s leaders are unable to perceive this spiritual unity, since they have rejected the Spirit of Christ, in exchange for the spirit of Satan.  (John 15:4-7;1 Cor 6:15-17; 2 Cor 11:3; 2 Pet 1:10; Rev 2:4; 8:10;13:11)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.¹³ These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. ¹⁴ But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  1 Cor 2:12-14

 In order to “rule on the earth”, God’s priests must be on the earth.  If we can shed the false belief that once the 144,000 are sealed in “heaven” they will remain there, we are then able to grasp how such “heavenly” angel/messenger/priests will be found ruling, teaching, and helping God’s future children on the earth.  (Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Heb 1:14; Rev 5:9,10)  

We can comprehend God’s “new creation” as having two “births”; one by fleshly parents through Adam and Eve, (Gen 2:7) and one by spiritual parents.  (John 3:3,5; 1 Cor 15:50; John 15:45; 20:22; Gal 4:26)

Once Jesus was resurrected, he appeared many times to his disciples in the flesh; and just as easily, disappeared into the spirit realm.   His example set the precedence of what it means to be a “new creation”.  (Mark 16:12; John 21:14; 1 Cor 15:3-8) 

By combining this event with Pearl Doxsey's help from her article, “Who are the gods?”, we can visualize the 144,000 “angels” present not only in the spirit realm, but on earth as well:

The sons of God ("gods") inherit the promises given to Abraham. What promises are these?
"I will make you very fruitful (John 15:8) I will make nations of you (Rev 5:9,10), and kings will come from you (Rev 20:4; 1:5; 3:21; 19:16,15; 2:26,27)".

“Jacob had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 
There above it stood the Lord, and he said: "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying 
(Ps 37:29; Heb 2:5,16; Gal 3:29; Heb 11:8-10; 13:14; Rev 21:2; Heb 12:22,23; Luke 10:20) (Gen.17:6). 

Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring (Rev 22:2). I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go (Matt 28:20), and I will bring you back to this land (Rev 21:7). 

I will not leave you (John 14:18) until I have done what I have promised you (John 16:22). 
Jacob was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place (Heb 12:22,23,28)! This is none other than the house of God (1 Cor 3:9,16; Isa 56:7; Eph 2:19,10); this is the gate of heaven (Rev 11:6; Matt 16:19; Rev 3:12; John 10:9; 2 Cor 5:20)." (Gen.28:12-15,17)

"Jesus added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open (Luke 24:32; Rev 2:17; Matt 13:11; Rev 4:1; 1:1) 
(John 3:12; 1 Cor 2:12,13; Col 3:2), and the angels of God ascending and descending (Heb 12:22; Eph 2:6; Rev 3:21) "on* (Greek--*"in service to") the Son of Man.” (John 1:51)

The "angels" (Lit. Greek, "messengers" – Isa 43:10,21; 1 Pet 2:9; Mal 2:7; Acts 1:8) referred to here, could not have served before the time of Christ (John 3:13)
Jesus specifically said that they are in service on "the Son of Man" (1 Cor 4:1). 
The "Son of Man" is Jesus in the flesh (John 1:14). Therefore, these angels serve Christ, after his coming down from heaven. 

To be a messenger of Christ ("ambassador") who harbors God's spirit of life within...
who has been made new (Rom 12:2; 8:11) as a part of God's new creation (2 Cor 5:17) by means of incorruptible seed, the Word of God (1 Pet 1:23; Luke 8:11)...

…who has been reborn as a Son of the Most High (John 3:3,5; Rom 8:16,17,19,28-30)...
who has been made an immovable pillar in the eternal heavenly Temple of God (Rev 3:12; Prov 9:1; Jer 1:18)...
...is a "god" (Ps 82:6; Rom 8:14; 1 Cor 8:5). 

I do hope readers here find this information to be a personal turning point as it was for me, in learning that both Christ and the 144,000 kings and priests/ Bride of Christ, will have access to heaven as well as on earth, and living among God’s future children in the Kingdom.

“You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.” Matt 5:14

 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. ² I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. Rev 21:1-3

 ^“But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” Rev 21:22

And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. ⁴ They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. ⁵ There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Rev 22:3-5

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

Pearl Doxsey: (type in her name and the title of the article in the search bar. The link should appear)

“End of the New Covenant”

“Those not anointed – what benefit now?”

“The Holy City”

 

 

 

 

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.” (Heb.1:6)

"Jesus will again, be brought into the world. At that time, the totality of his angels/messengers, will worship him... and be in service to, the Son of Man."  Pearl Doxsey

[Arauna]

I guess - according to you -  we can throw out all the scriptures which indicate the anointed will have heavenly bodies such as 1 cor 15 and revelations - too many places to mention.  Not even those which show they will be changed in an instant.

And the scriptures in Hebrews which indicate that they will be priests in the heavenly temple of jehovah.  

Jehovah is perfect in logic, so why give a heavenly body when a physical body is more suited to the earth? 

The marriage of the lamb will take place where?

Did Jesus give up his earthly body to receive a heavenly  spiritual body? And did he really say to his disciples they will be with him where he is?

Agh, there are just too many scriptures which indicate it is a heavenly kingdom and heavenly rulership....and a heavenly priesthood - a function you have forgotten about by just wanting to " rule"......... .which tells me you are up to your same old, same old behaviours. 

You boast you are of the body of christ...... so which "body" do you belong to which has perfect unity? . How many members?  Where do you meet?  And are you and your adherents fulfilling the prophesy that the good news of the kingdom will be preached throughout the earth? 

 

 

[Witness]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

I guess - according to you -  we can throw out all the scriptures which indicate the anointed will have heavenly bodies such as 1 cor 15 and revelations - too many places to mention.  Not even those which show they will be changed in an instant.

Which scriptures, Arauna?  I’m open to discussing them with you.

As the “new creation”, they are both human and spirit, as Jesus showed his disciples when he appeared to them after his resurrection.  1 Pet 1:23; 2 Cor 5:17; Mark 16:12; John 21:14; 1 Cor 15:3-8

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters." Rom 8:29

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" 2 Cor 5:17

" And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man."  1 Cor 15:49  NKJV

"And just as we have borne the image of the one who is made of earth, we will also bear the image of the heavenly." LEB

“You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.”  Rom 8:9

“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly”  Heb 12:22

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

And the scriptures in Hebrews which indicate that they will be priests in the heavenly temple of jehovah.  

Jerusalem’s temple was made with stones (Matt 24:2), God’s Temple today in Christ, is made with “living stones”, who are also His priests.  Individually and unitedly as Christ’s Bride, they are the dwelling place of God’s Spirit, just as the old earthly temple was blessed with God’s Spirit.  But no longer is there any definitive example of a temple built in a definitive place.  The anointed priesthood are His Temple and House of God.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22  They are his spiritual  “organization”. 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah is perfect in logic, so why give a heavenly body when a physical body is more suited to the earth? 

This is why the new creation is both.  There are many scriptures in my post that show the Bride with Christ, coming down from heaven.  Rev 21:1-3

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Did Jesus give up his earthly body to receive a heavenly  spiritual body? And did he really say to his disciples they will be with him where he is?

He had an earthly body when he appeared to his disciples. He also ate with them.  Should we limit God’s Hand to what He can accomplish with a “new creation”?  Was it limited when He created Adam and Eve and life in general?  Or, when Jesus appeared and disappeared when with his disciples?  For those who are “conformed to the image of His Son” wouldn’t they have the ability to do the same? 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Agh, there are just too many scriptures which indicate it is a heavenly kingdom and heavenly rulership....and a heavenly priesthood - a function you have forgotten about by just wanting to " rule"......... .which tells me you are up to your same old, same old behaviours. 

Oh Arauna, I am not the one saying I will be “co-ruler” with Christ before Christ makes the choice.  That would be your GB.  Matt 25:21  Besides, “co-ruler” isn’t a word found in the Bible.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

You boast you are of the body of christ...... so which "body" do you belong to which has perfect unity? . How many members?  

There is only one anointed Body of Christ.  The scriptures are above in the post of what those members are.  (1 Cor 12).  Not all of the "virgins" are found to be wise.  Many prefer to "buy" their oil from one other than Christ.  Matt 25:8,9; Rev 13:Rev 3:18; Rev 13:11,12,15-17

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Where do you meet?  And are you and your adherents fulfilling the prophesy that the good news of the kingdom will be preached throughout the earth? 

At the patience of the Librarian, I’ve posted links for anyone who cares to, can visit.   The “good news” is the restoration of “Jacob”/”Israel”.  Isa 44:23; Mal 3:1-3; Matt 17:11

…”the inhabited earth” (Matt 24:14) refers to God’s holy people.  John 14:23; 1 Cor 3:9  They are God’s owned land – “Israel”.  In the last days, they receive the message to “come out of her my people”.  Jer 25:29,30; Matt 10:23; Rev 11:1-3; 18:4-8

They and those with them, are drinking in the lie that an earthly organization leads one to salvation.  Rev 12:13-17; 2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 13:1,2;18:4-8

 

"The Symbolic Earth" - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2016/06/symbolic-earth.html

 

 

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

the “new creation”, they are both human and spirit,

Yes, for now.... but they receive a heavenly body to do their job in heaven as a full complete body of 144000.  Why is this new heavenly  body necessary if they could do their job on earth......?? 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

had an earthly body when he appeared to his disciples.

Yes, to serve a purpose!  To show he was resurrected but his real home was in the presence of his father....... no longer here on earth. 

Jesus gave up his fleshly body when he died and was resurrected with so heavenly spirit body and immortality.

 

1 cor 15: 50

"But I tell you this brothers, flesh and blood cannot inherit gods kingdom."  Corinthians 15  goes on to contrast a fleshly body with a heavenly body. 

They will  fulfill the function of kings and priests when they have been sealed  and taken up to heaven.. when there is no man or woman ......... . They sing the new song in heaven..... not here on earth. 

I see the slave as "facilitators" at present. The elders are our servants or facilitators.  The humility that Jesus taught ..... to serve others.

Here is the definition : 

Facilitator:  to make an action or process easy or easier

Synonyms for facilitate: help, simplify, smooth, promote, 

The slave are not yet ruling - they still have to be approved to receive that immortality and incorruptability in that future heavenly body. 

 

It is those who remain humbly faithful to the end who will receive that crown.  Unfortunately some do not keep that unity and start beating up on others.....becoming Jezebels....... spoken of in Revelation. 

"And no-one was able to master the song except those 144000 who were bought from the earth"

[Srecko Sostar]

15 hours ago, Witness said:

 I wonder what the anointed JW women feel about a female’s apparent transition into a man, who are clones of each other.

 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  Gal 3:28

 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

Just as a bride and groom are not identical to each other, neither is Christ’s Bride of many members; either to Christ, or to one another, as the illustration erroneously shows.

Individuality and unity is what should be expected, and not clones as you said well. According to vision and description with word "bride" in the Bible, it would be more accurate to see artistic pictures of female persons (in heaven or earth) as 144000.

15 hours ago, Witness said:

they are reigning upon the earth”

I can say how don't see any special need for 144000 to be in Heaven for purpose to reign. That can be done also very good from Earth too. But maybe we can say, for fun, that problem is hidden in transferring power of spirit from Heaven to Earth. We been explained by WT Society how "miracles" stopped. In that context it seems how one of "miracle" is to be inspired by God also finished in 1 century. :))) Perhaps that could be reason why is important for 14400 to be lifted in Heaven. Because distance must be too far, too long to be handled by spirit. :)))) 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. - 1 Cor

 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

This too verses show how distance is not obstacle for spirit's activity in 1 century. I really don't see why GB and Helpers making issue and such problem about "inspiration" and "be inspired" ?!! :)) 

[Witness]

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes, for now.... but they receive a heavenly body to do their job in heaven as a full complete body of 144000.  Why is this new heavenly  body necessary if they could do their job on earth......?? 

My opening scriptures were Rev 5:9,10.  If you will look again at the WT’s Greek Interlinear, it states that the kings/priests will reign ON the earth.  Do you want to change that truth, Arauna?  If you could only see that a “new creation” is both heavenly and human.  They will serve God in heaven and as the early priests were commissioned to do – teach and serve the people under the direction of their High Priest, Jesus Christ..  Mal 2:7; Rev 1:5,6; 7:15  Can God’s priesthood teach the people if they remain in a spiritual state that the rest of God’s children do not have access to? 

Can they say these words and be heard if they are out of contact with God’s future children?...

“And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one who hears, let him say, “Come!” And the one who is thirsty, let him come. The one who wants, let him take the water of life freely.”  Rev 22:17

Can “New Jerusalem” prepared as a bride, come down from heaven if it is to remain in heaven?  Rev 22:2

Remember, the “144,000” are the Temple, the Holy City.  They bring God’s Spirit/direction/guidance to His children. 

 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

“Behold, the dwelling of God is with humanity,
and he will take up residence with them,
and they will be his people
and God himself will be with them.  Rev 21:3

The dwelling of God is the Temple/House of God – 1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Cor 6:19; Eph 2:20-22

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes, to serve a purpose!  To show he was resurrected but his real home was in the presence of his father....... no longer here on earth. 

So, his ability to come back to earth has now passed.  Is this what you are saying?  Where are the scriptures that support this?  I have provided scripture that show Jesus returning to the earth.

And after he had said these things, while they were watching, he was taken up, and a cloud received him from their sight. ¹⁰ And as they were staring into the sky while he was departing, behold, two men in white clothing stood by them ¹¹ who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand there lookin^] into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven like this will come back in the same way you saw him departing into heaven!” Acts 1:9-11

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him.”  Heb 1:6

 I am pretty amazed that Gen 28:12-17 and John 1:51 do not help you see that Jesus will be on the earth in the Kingdom.  I hope you actually read them.  A symbolic stairway in Jacob's vision is set up between heaven and earth.  The descendants of Jacob in Genesis, are “Israel”.  His descendants, the “144,000” inherit the earth.  Jesus referred to the stairway again in John, with his “angel”/messengers “ascending and descending” upon the Son of Man.  

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

They will fulfill the function of kings and priests when they have been sealed  and taken up to heaven.. 

An anointed, refined and found faithful can be sealed while on the earth.  Yet even so, their obedience only to Christ must continue until he returns.  1 Cor 1:21,22; Eph 1:13; 4:30

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

when there is no man or woman

Can you see you are creating a doctrine with no sound basis?  How do you know this?  You speak of unity among all in the organization, yet they are all individuals, both men and women.  You have even in error, designated that the organization's members are the Body of Christ.  But, when it comes the the true anointed Body of Christ you now say there will be no men or women, but clones as your GB portray them, once God's Kingdom arrives.  You are applying two sets of standards, which is hypocrisy.   

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

They sing the new song in heaven..... not here on earth. 

Yes they do...in heaven.  

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

I see the slave as "facilitators" at present. The elders are our servants or facilitators.  The humility that Jesus taught ..... to serve others.

Here is the definition : 

Facilitator:  to make an action or process easy or easier

Synonyms for facilitate: help, simplify, smooth, promote, 

You can see the slaves however you like, but I detect you looking through the lens of the GB who are telling all JWs lies about the anointed ones.  I see what scripture points out clearly, that the elders have usurped the role of God’s priesthood. Matt 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3; 13:6  Revelation’s “Jezebel” feeds God’s servants/slaves lies, and expects gratitude given to an organization, an idol.  Your very words speak their lies. The ancient Jezebel killed the prophets of God (1 Kings 18:13);  today’s “Jezebel” spiritually “kills” any anointed as well as their companions who see truth and reveal “her” lies.  Rev 13:11,14-17

But I have against you that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, the one who calls herself a prophetess,(Rev 13:11) and teaches and deceives my slaves to commit sexual immorality (spiritual harlotry) and to eat food sacrificed to idols.  Rev 2:20

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear, and will produce great signs and wonders in order to deceive, if possible, even the elect

 

 

[Witness]

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This too verses show how distance is not obstacle for spirit's activity in 1 century. I really don't see why GB and Helpers making issue and such problem about "inspiration" and "be inspired" ?!! :)) 

Nope we can’t blame their lack of inspiration by Holy Spirit on distance.  What they do blame it on, is Jesus. 

Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food. w17 February p. 26

In light of this admittance, what is absolutely ironic is the emphasis on “pure language”.

It is especially noteworthy that the language that God gives his servants is said to be pure. This is true, not because of grammatical construction, but because it gives evidence of moral and spiritual cleanness. There is no allowance in this language for lying, deceit, or a tricky tongue. Those who speak this language must always speak truth. w91 4/1 p. 24-25

The organization boasts that “pure language” is found in the organization, when at the same time its leaders fail in providing truth. 

Jesus did promise to teach his faithful servants “all things”, which would be “perfect spiritual food”.  John 14:26; 1 John 2:27  Since the GB cannot receive it, neither do they receive the “pure language” from God...or anyone who learns from them.    

 

 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

did promise to teach his faithful servants “all things”,

So the " great crowd"  will learn all things by themselves?  They do not need an organized  place to attend meetings? .... which is instructed by the bible to attend so we can strengthen each other?

This is why I call you out as misleading and false....... where is your worldwide organization which is providing place for people of all nations to gather and worship jehovah?  And teach them live and neutrality so they truly view themselves as one nation with no borders dividing them......

5 hours ago, Witness said:

states that the kings/priests will reign ON the earth.  Do you want to change the truth?

There are so many other scriptures which indicate otherwise while you create an argument over the only scripture that 'may' indicate it because of an argument over a preposition....... are you changing the entire truth based on your 'desire' to start 'ruling now?

 

6 hours ago, Witness said:

God’s priesthood teach the people if they remain in a spiritual state that the rest of God’s children do not have access to? 

 We are being 'taught ' now by that 'slave'  you hate.     But you may be running ahead about the 1000 year reign..... don't you think?  

5 hours ago, Witness said:

you could only see that a “new creation” is both heavenly and human

Don't be patronizing to me..... I know that because of jehovahs spirit working in them.   But the bible clearly indicates that they will judge and rule when they are in heaven...... 

 

[Arauna]

23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

On 12/15/2019 at 2:28 AM, Witness said:

they are reigning upon the earth”

I can say how don't see any special need for 144000 to be in Heaven for purpose to reign. That can be done also very good from Earth too. But maybe we can say, for fun, that problem is hidden in transferring power of spirit from Heaven to Earth. We been explained by WT Society how "miracles" stopped. In that context it seems how one of "miracle" is to be inspired by God also finished in 1 century. :))) Perhaps that could be reason why is important for 14400 to be lifted in Heaven. Because distance must be too far, too long to be handled by spirit. :)))) 

On 12/15/2019 at 2:28 AM, Witness said:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. - 1 Cor

The spirit of God is not teaching you very well on your own..... this I can see from your comments.

When people serve jehovah from free will they will not need anyone to watch them like a watchdog.  I think you guys can go and join  muslims or the Jews because they believe the ordinary people need someone superior over them to teach them everything.

In the new system, new books will be opened to teach us Jehovahs advanced ways but it will be easy to learn because you will have a willing bunch of free people who WANT to serve God.    To rule means to judge.  So they will judge those who do not cooperate willingly. 

Where there is self-sacrificing love , a person puts yourself last, then  you learn Jehovahs ways quickly and get more of his Spirit.

So your idea of teaching as a tool to lord it over others is bogus. 

.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

 I know that because of jehovahs spirit working in them.

This remind me on something. Each person who are able to recognize, to see holy spirit manifestation in other person (words and deeds) also need to have that same spirit. Or opposite spirit perhaps :))

Illustration: If i speak German i can recognize and understand all people who speaking German. If i don't speak German i can make guess how some language is German but will not be able to understand what German people saying. 

It is possible to make conclusion that GB is under influence of particular spirit, if you are under same spirit influence, too. 

But if you are under influence of other spirit you will see difference, too. 

 

[Shiwiii]

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

So the " great crowd"  will learn all things by themselves?

Rev 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the ^[d]water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

 

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

They do not need an organized  place to attend meetings? ....

Nope

Matt 18: ²⁰ For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

When people serve jehovah from free will they will not need anyone to watch them like a watchdog.

Why the insistence on no beards? Not reporting CSA? The constant hounding for money? Judicial committees for reading unapproved material? Not getting enough hours? Not showing up to EVERY meeting? Suits and ties? No celebration of birthdays? Making sure you don't send your kids to college? The hospital liaison group, I mean if this isn't a watchdog I don't know what is! Constantly they are there to make sure you don't take blood. If it is free will, why are they there? 

[Witness]

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

So the " great crowd"  will learn all things by themselves?

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, ¹⁰ and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

¹⁴ And I said to him, "Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ¹⁵ Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.”  Rev 7:9,10,13-15

The “great crowd” are the anointed remnant/priesthood that are found faithful after Armageddon.  Only God’s designated priests were allowed to serve in God’s temple on earth.  It is the same in heaven.  They are God’s “dwelling”/ “living stones” of the Temple.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17

A false christ/ false prophet is not sent by God, but by Satan to mislead the “elect”. Matt 24:24; Rev 13:11,12 Jesus sends those whom HE chooses. John 13:20   He gave us warning of the possible “wicked slave” who would spiritually “eat and drink with drunkards”. (elders, helpers “drunk” on the combined teachings of the GB and their own)  Matt 24:48-51  A faithful slave would not condemn ("beat") his fellow slaves for questioning his faulty/changed teachings.  He would not judge them as spiritually “dead” as the GB direct the elders to carry out, and have done, over and over for years.  He would welcome all offers of spiritual provisions from his fellow slaves.  Simply because the GB are lording it over their “brothers” in Christ, doesn’t mean there isn’t a “faithful slave” whom Jesus has chosen to care for his belongings.  Matt 17:11; John 13:20; Rev 11:1-3   The difference between the GB and a faithful slave sent by Christ, is that one leads the listener to Christ – not to an organization, and not to themselves.  

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

They do not need an organized  place to attend meetings? .... which is instructed by the bible to attend so we can strengthen each other?

All you see is what the WT offers you.  As long as you stay put in that environment you will not know how those who have left the organization worship, or that they may have found an authentic “faithful slave” with truth to offer. 

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is why I call you out as misleading and false....... where is your worldwide organization which is providing place for people of all nations to gather and worship jehovah?

Are JWs worshiping God whole-souled, or has their dedication to a “worldwide organization” led them away from true worship?  Those who “worship” the Beast/organization that is guided by a false prophet (Rev 13:11) say, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to make war with him?”  This is the same Beast that overcomes the anointed through blasphemy targeted against them.  Rev 13:4-7

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

 We are being 'taught ' now by that 'slave'  you hate.     But you may be running ahead about the 1000 year reign..... don't you think?  

Can truth/light reside with falsehood/darkness? 2 Cor 6:14 Would Jesus, who is Truth, allow his servants to spread falsehoods worldwide, especially when he promised the Helper would tell them “all things”?  John 14:2 You do realize that every piece of wrongful teaching from the GB reached all corners available at the time of its distribution?  Millions of people read them, JWs and those not JWs.  Doesn’t the fact that the organization exposed their list of falsehoods/”beliefs clarified" prove beyond a doubt that Jesus’ Spirit is not found in the hearts of your leaders?   It truly is slander against the Son of God to believe he condones falsehoods. 

Telling truth does not equate to hate!  Did Jesus hate the Pharisees when he told them truth?  You speak of hate frequently; perhaps it is you who hate those who challenge your organization and leaders?

The thousand year reign of Christ began in the first century. Ps 110:1,2; 1 Cor 15:25 The organization’s appearance on the worldly scene comes with it, the development and eventual presence of the “man of lawlessness”/Beast of Rev 13:1,2,18; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Matt 24:15,16.   Rev 18:4-8

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

Don't be patronizing to me..... I know that because of jehovahs spirit working in them.   But the bible clearly indicates that they will judge and rule when they are in heaven...... 

“when”…you are as confident of their destiny as they are, so much so that their address is "1 Kings Drive".  What did Paul say about such individuals?  

"Oh, you are already filled! You have already become rich! You have begun to reign without us! If only that were really true, so that we could reign with you!" 1 Cor 4:8