JOHN BUTLER
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Posts posted by JOHN BUTLER
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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:
Well Anna, i see that in this way.
Perhaps it is true how GB nowhere say this in such way and by that your impression is correct. But answer on the question, "Do GB view themselves in that way, as "substitution for" Jesus?" is something that in private conversation will be interesting to hear. And then our "impression" would/will be more clear.
Therefore, we are ambassadors+ substituting for Christ,+ as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.” - 2. Cor. 5:20 nwt
In Interlinear Translation (by WT) there is Greek word translated with "we are supplicating over Christ".
supplicate
Synonyms for supplicateverb ask for, pray forWell, how NWT Translation came from supplicate to substitute????
The word supplication is directly related to the simple verb for “to bind” (Matthew 18:18). Wherever you encounter the term “supplication,” it is presenting to us that kind of prayer where we come to the Lord and move into the dimension of controlling by the power of God that which is uncontrollable by human power. - source from web
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/5-20.htm
Very interesting indeed.
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15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
I admit I have never seen it as the GB placing a heavy burden on people by informing young men that masturbation is not the bees’ knees.
Ah but is it the GB's thinking or God's thinking, this is the whole point ?
Can they give direct scripture where God states such ? If there is no scripture then are they going beyond the things written ? If so they are adding burden to God's word.
Surely there is enough pressure for any true servant of God to deal with, without making them feel guilty in an extra way. And as I've said before it might just make some younger people stumble, by thinking that the GB is putting on pressure whilst allowing 'other things' to go unpunished.
They may see double standards and be stumbled to the point of quitting the JW Org.
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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
there are many things that are stupid, that Jehovah has not spoken against.
Its called FREEDOM.
I personally would rail against smoking because it is stupid, suicidal, addiction to drugs, and expensive, but NOT extrapolate and put words into Jehovah's Mouth that he did not speak.
The Society's policies often are a VERY good idea (sometimes NOT) ..... adherence where they espoused Bible counsel correctly, saved my life, integrity, and health many times .... but when I used to Scuba Dive, Skydive, Surfboard, ride a motorcycle, and explore the Congo (working), and other things, opinions vary as to their advisability, and I considered their overreaching just being busybodies, forbidding to others what scared them for the sake of total control of EVERYTHING.
(Sad, cringeworthy joke: "Everything that is not forbidden ... is mandatory".)
Jehovah spoke against becoming a drunkard many times .... and I seem to remember, even against "druggery"..
What is "druggery", anyway?
And who decides?
If Jehovah did not explicitly say that ... I personally would not make the Almighty God my personal agenda spokesman hand puppet.
However, "Quod est Necessarium, est Licitum" (That which is necessary, is legal). If someone smoked, say marijuana for glaucoma to preserve their eyesight, or to lessen the pain from cancer, I personally think that prohibition would NOT apply.
I am willing to bet my LIFE on that.
My mother and father died slow, from cancer. If someone was dying and in great pain from disease or injury, being addicted to morphine I personally consider that drug addiction to be quite acceptable.
If they got "high" from it, it would be a side effect. NOT "druggary" at all.
TRUE Theology ALWAYS has to make common sense !
Qoute : 'forbidding to others what scared them for the sake of total control of EVERYTHING'.
Wow does this mean you actually agree with me ? I've been saying the GB go beyond the things written because they want total control. And I've also been saying the GB are like the Pharisees adding extra burdens to the congregants. So am i right ?
As for the word Theology, I hate the word as much as I hate the word Religion.
Common sense is man's thinking. Serving God the way God wants to be served is God's thinking. Two totally different things. And the word religion is just a pigeon hole that people seem to need to use. Such as, What religion are you ? It means nothing, just a tick box for convenience.
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9 hours ago, Anna said:
Hey! You leave me out of this!
It's not just Anna, it's most of the JW congregants. They are frightened to question anything.
I can't remember who it was mentioned in the Bible but it says of them 'they carefully examined the scriptures to see if these things were true' or something like that. But the JW folks seem to just accept anything the GB and Elders tell them. Well if a person doesn't question or at least look for scriptural backing then that person is putting their trust 'in earthling man in whom no salvation belongs'.Â
Honestly, having been in different congregations in different parts of the country, I've seen the fear in congregants, not willing to question even the elders. Yes the ordinary congregants, most of them, are quite loving toward each other, but they are in fear of the elders.Â
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6 hours ago, SuziQ1513 said:
"Has the Governing Body of Jehovah's WItnesses Put Themselves in the Place Of Jesus Christ as Mediator Between God and Men?"
The answer is NO. Their blood cannot compensate for Adam's sin. There are many men and women who give their life for others such as military, police, emergency workers and rescuers. But none of their sacrificed lives can be laid on the alter before Jehovah to provide a ransom for mankind. I do believe in the past there have been GB members that were full of themselves and became haughty but that's for Jehovah and Jesus to sort out. Just as Moses, David and others who lead Israel were fallible so are the members of the GB. To their benefit, they have helped unite 8+ million humans in serving Jehovah thru Christ's blood- today thats quite a feat!
The GB have tried to put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ. We know of course that they cannot come close to doing so. But by spreading fear they rule over others. And you are probably right when you say 'To their benefit...' It would look as if they love the praise and position of power. Moses and David were aware of their mistakes and repented. The GB are stubborn and will not change their ways and of course will be judged by it. If they are of the anointed then they have no excuse for their behavior toward Jehovah and the congregants. It really does make them look like the 'wicked slave' mentioned in the scriptures.
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9 hours ago, Anna said:
Now that Tom has brought my attention to this, on further thought, it is a strange thing to say. Why would it help if I understood that the Org. is run by fear not love? I thought that it was MY perception of how it was run that mattered. If I feel loved and unafraid inside the Org. , then what's wrong with that?
Um, you seem to have hit another important point here. You are talking about how YOU feel about the way YOU are treated.
Try opening out, try thinking about others. Try seeing the bigger picture. The idea is that the JW Org as a whole 'has love amongst itself'.
What I'm trying to make you and others aware of is that the JW Org does not have complete love amongst the whole association of brothers and sisters. I know I will get told to 'change the record' but the Child Abuse issues and the shunning issues prove the point I'm making. It was fear of being disfellowshipped that stopped people reporting the crimes of Child Abuse within the Org. Because disfellowshipment meant a complete cutting off from family and 'friends'. A complete loneliness... If you can understand what that does to a person then you might just have an ounce of compassion and love for those ones.
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10 hours ago, Anna said:
It was 7 until not long ago, when Kenneth Cook joined this year. I was assuming your disenchantment with the GB is not recent, therefor my comment about your feelings of being controlled was in reference to the 7 members.
I never said the anointed had mental issues, nor you, but your reasoning has put you in a unhappy state of mind. That is what I meant.
I hate to tell you, but if it was announced that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then you have been disfellowshipped. And by the way, the reasons for disfellowshipping are never disclosed.
A. It's been 8 men from Jan or Feb of this year.
B. It's the Governing body that have said some of the anointed have mental issues. You said I had issues and 'not a good place to be mentally'. Almost alluding to the same thing.
C. You don't seem to know the 'rules' very well. There is a difference between being disfellowshipped, and a person disassociating themselves. Basically 'you cannot fire someone that has already quit'. And a person has to have repeatedly done something against Jehovah for them to disfellowship. I had done nothing that serious so they had no reason. I will say that if i had done enough for them to disfellowship me, I know they would have jumped at the chance. But by your very comment you prove my point. They try to make it look as if i had sinned greatly... You may say that i have sinned, but if so, only against the JW Org, not against Jehovah in a serious way.
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33 minutes ago, Anna said:
Oh dear, you do have a lot of issues going on. Nothing that I haven't heard before though. I am sorry you feel you were being controlled by (7) 8 men. That's not a good place to be mentally, or spiritually. I won't try and refute anything you said because I feel you are not in an objective frame of mind anyway, and a "person convinced against this will is of the same opinion still". As regards whether Jesus died on a cross or a stake, frankly I don't care, I really don't think it's important, in my opinion.
Why did you put 7 in brackets ? The GB comprises of 8 men.
And you are a typical JW in your response. It's not me that has issues, it's the JW Org. But as I've said you people bury your heads in the sand as you are frightened to respond to the truth about the GB and the Org. Quite funny though how you copy the GB, the GB say that some of those of the anointed have mental issues.
And once again regarding the death of Jesus, you do not have a clue. However the GB thought it important enough to change what Thomas said in God's word, to something untrue.
For a JW you don't seem very well informed, not even knowing how many men in the GB.
As for me feeling i was controlled by those 8 men, i didn't. I felt the Org was controlled by them. By that i mean that the elders were controlled by the GB and the elders then controlled the congregants. I was clever enough not to share my feelings with others in my congregation, because that would have given the elders an excuse to disfellowship me. The reason they would have used is "Causing a division within the congregation". So i calmly emailed as many elders as possible and told them i was leaving the JW Org. Then i had the meeting to confirm it... However the GB gives orders that the elders are not allowed to say someone has left, so the elder can only say that so and so, 'is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.. As so many people are leaving the Org the GB do not want the congregants to know that a person chooses to leave. I was also clever enough to tell a few 'brothers' that i was leaving before i left so that they would know i wasn't disfellowshipped. But even so they are too frightened to talk to me because of GB rules. If only you could understand that the JW Org is run by fear not love. Just as the Pharisees did it back in the time of Jesus.
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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:
You mean that your wife will not discuss these things with you? Whatever is wrong with that woman?
I hope you dial this stuff down a few notches at home. You cannot be easy to live with. If you go at it at home as you go at it here and your wife decided one day that she just couldn’t take it anymore, I’m sure you would assign the GB full blame for that, too.
My wife discusses all the meetings, that she attends, with me. She tells me about the talks and the W.T study articles. She tells me whom she has spoken to before and after the meeting. It's quite a fun occasion over lunch, listening to her. She is not baptised but still the elders try to tell her not to discuss spiritual matters with me. I can now see why she has never wanted to get baptised. I agree with her feelings which are this :- When a person dedicates themself to God it is a personal dedication, an agreement between the person and God. However when a person gets baptised as a JW, the JW Org see it as that person becoming a member of their religion and accepting their rules... It gives the JW org control over a person, as is easily seen by the way it treats people.
As for me 'going on' at my wife, no i don't. I mention things when she asks, and if any new news arrives concerning the Org or Child Abuse then i will tell her. But on a day to day basis we have too much other stuff to talk about and to do.. She obviously sees me reading the Bible daily but I don't talk about it to the point of being annoying.
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4 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:
It could be just me, but it seems that he has but a passing interest in the topic of discussion, if any at all, and but uses whatever the subject to further his peeve with the GB
Oh come on, this seems to have started as a joke, pillow gate. SM has made it serious as he seems to have some interest in the problem. Either you or someone said, that either the GB or others, are trying to give instruction where God Himself has given none. Is it therefore right for the GB, the elders or anyone to judge those that have this 'problem', if God himself and Jesus Christ have not mentioned it. I can see it as a way for 'shrinks' to earn money by making people feel guilty and then pretending to 'help' them... But if God shows no interest in it then should we even be bothering to worry about it ? Of course the GB could be using it to make the young ones feel guilty. Like the Pharisees loading burdens on the people.
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32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:
Yes, but regarding him I do not see how is trying to approach masturbation and pornography in such as to give a helping hand a smoke screen when others are in the same boat trying to help those who have this problem, mainly if said problem grows out of control to the point they will do things they would never think of doing to begin with. For any person and or group who is combating this addiction, such is no smoke screen, for this is the same game those who are for masturbation and pornography and think it is a normal way of life, will often say, and I have run into such ones before who give the wrong ideas to people who are clearly not a fan of the problem.
SM you seem to be the only one on here worrying about it all. I have just re-read the first three pages and it seems to have started off as a joke... Pillow gate. These people that you say are trying to 'help' others. Do they get paid for doing so ? Are they what i call 'shrinks' ? Messing with people's heads. Telling people what is right and wrong even though God Himself gives no direction on such matters. God will judge each of us through Jesus Christ, when the time comes. Let us not be like the Pharisees who put extra burdens on the people.
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5 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:
Masturbation and Pornography, anything in connection to Sexual Immortality and or ill fleshy desires is indeed something of which God isn't fan of.
I don't see how it is a smoke screen, as you say, when both the religious and non-religious speak of and do the same thing in order to give their two cents on the matter of prevention. This is why I told JTR, even linking him the very community of where all Christians spoke up on this matter, therefore, Christians doing this, it is not outlandish for the Jehovah's Witnesses to do the same thing - this also goes for the people who are against Okatu culture in Japan and elsewhere, of which people rather give themselves self-gratification rather, which is in the realm of sexual immortality.
You are free to look for the 2 links I provided JTR because such things are a smoke screen when the masturbation and Pornography is indeed problematic, I say this because I am someone who actually help young ones with such issues, give advice and so forth, even losing a friend to it when those of the adult industry pulled her in and made her face public, even my own brother who had been addicted to pornography for some years came clean because of the help that me myself and my father provided, what we did was not anything in trying to pretend to do anything, we realized the problem, we went about it both as a as a family and spiritually and because of our efforts, he ceased the addiction. This situation an the situation of a late friend mirrors that of the many, many young ones and teenagers, even adults of whom I had spoken, who are also battling with that of sexual immorality, for this battle matters not race and or faith because it is a problem that is great one and help provided is nothing as you call it, a smoke screen, and to people who deal with these things, hearing these stories, I see this as a jab to the chest.
And regarding the problem it isn't an issue of judging, it is an issue of zeroing in on the problem and trying to fix and or help when an individual and or persons is dealing with masturbation and pornography.
Next time you want to say something is but a smoke screen, take the time and read the experiences, stories and struggles of those in the same boat. Even what the Jehovah's Witnesses bring forth of this matter, the same information can be found here:
- https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFapChristians/
(and that is only 2 to the community as a whole, nothing in this regard even when professed by others is a smoke screen)
When you actually help a great deal of people and listen to them about this addiction, it would never be wise to call it a smoke screen. You of all people should know this addiction that plagues today's society is like that of a virus, whereas people have to fight their own inner demons to overcome it while others fall victim to it and see themselves as worthless people such ones who do not take the time to see, listen and hear do not extend their hand to help.
The other factor here is if they are trying as do others who actually use their blood and sweat into doing so, what are you contributing to helping prevent masturbation and pornography addiction, how would you deal with a young one who nearly did something very, very grave because of the addiction?
That being said, you've yet to show how and where did a Restorationist group had suddenly lost favor in God when their Christology points to them striving to and or have been attempting to be like the early church - in this regard, informing their community about masturbation and pornography.
I think you missed my point. Yes masturbation is not something God is pleased with, but neither is the Governing Body of the JW Organisation. For the GB to make such a video when they are deliberately allowing Child Abuse / Pedophilia within the same Organisation is total hypocrisy. I see it as they are trying to use anything else to turn people's attention away from their dishonest dealings regarding Child Abuse.
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9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
How many of them do you want answered?
We went round and round on a prior thread and you just repackage your questions and run them through again.
The verse says: ‘Taste and see that Jehovah is good.’ If you tasted and saw that he was bad, what can I say? Check your taste buds. But you can just as easily say it to me.
It may be that you should be praying to The LORD. It is the GB that brings God’s name to the fore, nearly everyone else seeks to bury it, and you have made clear that you don’t trust the GB as far as you can spit.
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2 minutes ago, Anna said:
As far as I know every one of Jehovah's Witnesses does that.
You are saying that indeed, and I am sorry you got that impression because the GB don't view themselves that way. So what gives you that impression?
Because JW congregants are frightened of upsetting the elders, and the elders are frightened of the GB. The GB make up rules so that they have power over others. The elders enforce those rules. The shunning thing for instance. Totally against the word of God and against the things Jesus taught. A person may think they have 'friends' in the Organisation but if that person decides to leave the Org' (because the Org is doing things wrong) then they find they no longer have any of those 'friends'. But if you asked any of those ex 'friends' what scripture they are following by not talking to you, they would not have a clue. They just do as they are told by the elders, who in turn just past on the messages from the GB... It appears that the Elders also try to tell the marriage mates of those that leave the Org' not to discuss scriptural things with the one who has left. So where do the elders get this instruction from ?
The Child Abuse problem brought about because the GB continuously told the congregants not to report it to the police or the outside authorities. And the GB told the elders not to tell the congregants that there were / are Pedophiles within those congregations. However the GB were secretly collecting information about said Pedophiles from at least 1997 onward.
Jesus himself said it would be very bad for anyone that causes the stumbling of one such young child. My my, how much stumbling has the GB caused, and proof of it is now very clear Earthwide. .. Unless you bury your head in the sand and do not know the truth about such things....
And as I've said before the GB, 8 men, most of whom are American, also say that they are the only ones that God is working through and that the others of the anointed are not being used in that way. Then to add insult to it, the GB say that some of those who say they are anointed, are mentally ill. Has Jesus given the GB the right to judge others ? I think not.
Tell me, what do you think ? When Jesus was killed was it on a stake or a cross ? If on a stake, where were his hands ? How many nails were used on his hands ? Where were these nails placed ? Thomas said that he would not believe until he saw the 'holes' (plural) in the HANDS (plural) where the NAILS (plural) went through. However the GB had the picture made of Jesus hanging on a stake with ONE NAIL through both wrists. You might say it's a small point but the scripture says at Luke 16 v10 "The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much.... "
Your GB are not faithful to God, nor do they follow the footsteps of Jesus Christ. 'By their works you will know them'. Yes indeed.
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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:
How many of them do you want answered?
We went round and round on a prior thread and you just repackage your questions and run them through again.
The verse says: ‘Taste and see that Jehovah is good.’ If you tasted and saw that he was bad, what can I say? Check your taste buds. But you can just as easily say it to me.
It may be that you should be praying to The LORD. It is the GB that brings God’s name to the fore, nearly everyone else seeks to bury it, and you have made clear that you don’t trust the GB as far as you can spit.
Oh dear once again you twist what i say. I've never said Jehovah is bad. However i will say for definite that the JW Org and it's GB, DO NOT OWN GOD. If you cannot separate God from the Org then it's you that have a problem. I'm saying it's the GB that have put themselves in place of Jesus Christ as mediator. I pray to God only through Jesus Christ. It was Jesus, as a perfect man, that gave his life willingly not the GB. However if you wish to serve the GB and therefore worship them, it is your choice.
As for my many questions which you did not answer. It was in answer to your comment about 'no crime being committed. Well if all I've read is true, in fact if only half of it is true, then plenty of crimes have been committed. 'Crimes' against Jehovah God, making the Organisation a disgusting place and therefore bringing reproach on God Himself.
Making God's name known, then dragging it through the dirt, is that good in your eyes ?
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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
I liked at the meeting Thursday, Proverbs 21:2, one of the support scriptures cited on the gem point of how Jehovah draws people:
All of a man’s ways seem right to him, But Jehovah examines the hearts.
Everybody is right. Nobody states a fact that is wrong. Everybody states facts that are right. These are all matters of the head.
But how they are combined and how they are prioritized are matters of the heart, which Jehovah examines.
I note that you didn't answer any of my questions and I'm wondering if your reply above is supposed to be some sort of an blanket answer. If you see my points as just being 'facts of the head' then you seem to be of the same mind as the GB. That is, that it's ok to allow Child Abuse in the Org, its just collateral damage. GB thinking, 'What's a few thousand abused kids and complaining adults when we have 8 million members and the money keeps rolling in' ? 'What's a few suicides and people with mental / emotional problems due to the shunning issues which have no scriptural backing, whilst we still have our power and glory from men' ? 'We'll just make a few more 'clever' videos and predictions by misusing scripture'. 'A few more misuses of scripture in our 'study Watchtowers, and the sheep will still follow us'..
I do hope that Jehovah is closely examining the 'hearts' of the Governing Body. For surely their hearts are not toward serving Jehovah God.
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2 minutes ago, Anna said:
As someone already mentioned, this video is for a selected audience only, those who are to serve in Bethel. Although the org. has mentioned the inappropriateness of masturbation for a Christian, based on principles in the Bible, it has only done so occasionally. It has not been blown out of all proportion. However, addiction to pornography has become a big problem (in the world too) and I have no doubt that masturbation has a lot to do with it. As James 1:14 warns: " But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."
I think the GB are well aware that most things they do, write, video etc become public very quickly. I think in many cases the GB are just trying to impress the public, just as the Pharisees did. Put on a show of 'righteousness'. Who leaked this vid' out anyway if it is for a 'private' audience ? Do the GB really think the young people in Bethel don't know about the massive amount of Child Abuse going on in the Org ? Hypocrisy at its best.
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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
Who is going to remove men at the apex of the pyramid?
Outside of secular authorities who might arrest and imprison them for violation of secular law, there is no one WITHIN the .ORG to fire them. Even if imprisoned on some charge, like embezzlement or something else, they would still be the titular figureheads of the .ORG
Jehovah God COULD turn us all into winged frogs .... but current hard evidence shows that he does NOT interfere with any aspect of mankind's follys, whether they be deliberate, or through chance and circumstance , or just being plain goofy and clueless.
Many fantasy, wishful thinking bogus examples to the contrary ... the Governing Body KNOWS this.
They cannot be fired for crimes, incompetence, or just being plain goofy and clueless.
No matter WHAT they do ... the money keeps rolling in ....
You don't seem to have much faith in God then. If God wants to have or needs to have a 'clean organisation' then I'm sure he could arrange that. Were not the Pharisees and the Sadducees at the apex of the pyramid ? Didn't Jesus show them up for what they were? But now Jesus is in an even higher, more powerful position. If God through Jesus Christ wants the JW Org to be cleaned out, then it will be cleaned out.... The wicked slave gets thrown out into the street, and that is where the gnashing of his teeth will be.
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2 hours ago, Judith Sweeney said:
From a Psychological standpoint, this act causes a person to be self centered. When said "bopper" finds a mate...well, said person is used to the way they themselves do things... the adage "if you want something done right, do it Yourself" may well be the result. I personally think it is a form of self abuse. The tub always could use a scrubbing....
But the point here in this discussion seems to be is it important for the JW 'bosses' to blow this out of all proportion ? Or are they using it as a way of pretending to be 'righteous' ?
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15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:
Of course! Why bring such nonsense into a discussion of courtroom proceedings?
My comment which you are twisting was about whether a true servant of God would need a 'mans law' to tell them what action to take. That is, should they report Child Abuse or not. Any true servant of God would know that all Child Abuse should be reported to the Police and the other authorities such as Child welfare whether its compulsory or not. The Pedophile needs to be caught and dealt with by a legal court. You do know don't you that there were courts and judges and prisons in Jesus' time ?
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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:
This you must do to continue to gain more understanding, also to keep yourself in check, in regards to doing so there will be some path that opens that leads you in the correct direction. Indeed Jesus spoke of Jerusalem and her destruction, and this gives us an example today of how people take to warning of what is to comer.
Like I said, we do not know about God's approval and or not, but the fact that they strive to follow the early church is a telltale sign, as is with ALL Restorationist, the very reason why a lot of true Christians remain in total neutrality them.
But stuff like this will continue to happen and will only continue to do so until the Son of God returns, therefore what is plaguing mankind that comes from sin itself, will continue to happen until then.
That being said, regarding masturbation and pornography, as is discussed here, those afflicted with such an addiction, it will continue onward, even among the greatest of people be it religious or not. Some give in, and some actually try to find solutions to their problems, some fail, some succeed. Going with I professed before, it is not something out of the ordinary for religious people to speak on the matter and give some advice of what to do, as well as to explain it. The very reason why I links and information to such ones who also do the same thing of which the JWs are doing, but these people are confined to a sole sub-community on the website known as reddit. Although it is solely Christian, it branches out to the community as a whole who put their differences aside because they have a common enemy - sexual immorality.
They themselves know you cannot erase sexual immortality from the world, reality and virtually, however, it does not stop them from helping and preventing some instances. When God sends Jesus to earth, only then such things will cease.
In honesty I don't think the masturbation problem is such a problem in God's eyes. To some humans that want to judge others, masturbation can be used as an excuse to judge, and could possibly be big business for 'shrinks'.. As for the JW's Governing Body, i think the masterbation video and other info' is just a 'smoke screen' or side track, to take the pressure off the serious problems within the Org. If the GB can pretend to be concerned about the cleanliness of the Org then it will look good for them in front of man. But of course God sees through such things.
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3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
In any Corporation, the ONLY way to correct things that are seriously wrong, is to fire those responsible.
NOTHING else actually works !
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No mechanism exists, to fire those responsible.
The only thing that will sustain such a system is an unlimited supply of free money.
Are you saying that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have such total control of the Organisation that they could not be removed ? Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.... But, as Jesus said, with God all things are possible.
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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:
A Montana court is now hearing some of these cases. The pattern is familiar. They are civil matters, not criminal matters, because almost always no crime has been committed. The ‘crime’ charged is ‘failing to go beyond the law’ in reporting allegations or actual instances of child sexual abuse.
If it is so crucial to go beyond the law, MAKE that the law everywhere. It is what Geoffrey Jackson pleaded for before the ARC. What could be simpler? Make universal mandatory reporting laws that allow for no exceptions. JWs will be delighted at that development.
The Rochester Democrat and Chronicle reported (November 20, 2011) that two thirds of professionals who ARE required to report suspected child abuse fail to do it. “Studies over the past two decades nationally have consistently shown that nearly two-thirds of professionals who are required to report all cases of suspected abuse fail to do so.....‘I think that we fail miserably in mandated reporting,’ said Monroe County Assistant District Attorney Kristina Karle.”
Why do the two thirds of professionals required by law to report child abuse fail to do it? Is it that two thirds of professionals are wicked and don't give a hoot about children? Few would say that. Most would say that there must be other factors involved to account for such a lapse. Have the two thirds all been sued or fired? Yet here we have congregation elders, who were NOT required to report, on trial for not reporting. Penalizing people for ‘not going beyond the law’ simply allows for Monday-morning quarterbacking to assign motives, invariably bad ones, to people unpopular.
The purpose of law is to codify what is right and to make an involved situation simple. That is why Brother Jackson asked for such a change. That way both parties, secular and congregation, can pursue their investigations into wrongdoing without hampering the other.
It is a dilemma that Jehovah’s Witnesses face almost alone. Few others feel the need to look into their own wrongdoing. ‘Preach to them on Sunday and let that be the end of it,’ most say. ‘Whether they do it or not is not our concern.’ Only a religion determined to remain as clean as possible in God's eyes investigates such matters itself.
Since our last engagement I have taken to kicking back at some of these articles. Sometimes I place the responses on this site as well. Such as here:
and here:
So, is it true that the GB started gathering documents about Child Abuse / pedophilia accusations, from all congregations in the USA from 1997 and that this is ongoing ? Then is it true that the GB or its legal departments refused to hand these documents over the the Supreme Court of California ? Is it also true that the Organisation was fined around $2 million for not handing over the documents ? Doesn't the scriptures say to 'be obedient to the law of the land unless it conflicts with God's laws' ? Surely God would not want the Organisation to remain unclean ? ...... Then again is it true that the GB or its Legal dept' agreed on massive (secret amount) payouts to the two men (ex Brothers) regarding the child abuse they suffered whilst in the 'truth' ? And who's money did the GB use to make these massive payouts ? .... But you say 'no crimes have been committed'... And in Canada is it true that a 66 million dollar lawsuit is in the process, against the JW Org because of Child Abuse /pedophilia ? I won't ask about here in the UK or in the Netherlands. Perhaps it was the reports of Child Abuse being so regular that made the GB take action in 1997... As for this stupid argument as to what the law states or does not state, its totally irrelevant. JW's should know what is right in God's eyes without needing a man made law. And talking of law it seems there is some proof that a brother (of some importance in the Org) here in the UK actually told brothers to destroy documents about Child Abuse accusations "because satan is coming after the organisation". Um destroying evidence is surely illegal in man's law, and against God's 'laws too. I have read in scripture that if a man has some information regarding a 'crime' or bad deed, if he withholds that information it is a sin for him. It is as bad as deliberately telling lies. .... It matters not what any other organisation does. Religious or business, legal or illegal....... People, brothers or otherwise, should not be considered collateral damage within the JW ORG, just to keep the pretence of cleanliness.
So I will repeat my comment which you answered on.
And how could a person, with a clear conscience, go on the ministry to try to bring more people into an Organisation which allows such wicked Child Abuse to go on ?
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12 hours ago, Gone Away said:
Well why not go and find something that does. You might well be knocking on the wrong door like this.
I'll continue my daily Bible reading and my prayers to God and hopefully something will happen to give me some direction. Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem but it was a long time (in human terms) before it happened. Patience is required for many things. Should I expect God to answer my prayers immediately ? No of course not. Maybe i am being put to the test. Maybe God wants to know if I'm sincere. Or, maybe there will be big changes within the JW Org and it will 'cleaned out' and then have God's approval.
Anti-Masturbation Training Video For Jehovah's Witnesses!
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As with most on here you never answer my questions directly and a lot of your comments make no real sense. Yes i guess you visit this site for a bit of fun as many of us do, but a few straight answers might be helpful sometimes. I can take any criticism and kick backs but straight answers and nice...