JOHN BUTLER

10 hours ago, Alzasior Lutor said:

w 01-2017

At the regional convention this summer 2018, the look of right side, i see this so many time.... Unbelivable !

Um, didn't Jesus tell us to 'first remove the rafter from our own eye, before trying to remove the straw from our brother's eye' ?

Didn't he tell us that if we judge others then we ourselves will be judged ?

Can you not think to yourself this way, 'Well I'm not keen on his clothes but he is here in Jehovah's place of worship and in time he will mature'. 

8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I usually see the forums as part of and or categorized as social media. A place for discussion, debate, conversation, agreeing/disagreeing with someone, and or that one guy in the forums/media who is a clown, and then we have the trolls, the worse of the worse who feed off your anger and sadness, using that collected power against you, then you have the hateful bunch, the white knights who defend any woman/girl they looks good to them, you have the "bros" and so forth.

 

In short, welcome to the internet.

Yes, well it does belong to the world. As for trolls, I have been called such. Unfortunately some people use the term when they don't like what a person says. 

But, it was on Facebook, that I first heard about the child abuse within the JW Org. Well I wasn't going to hear about it in the congregation was I ? But of course i dismissed it for a long time as being 'trolls', 'haters' etc. However when they started posting links that seemed to have some 'cred' then I started looking into in with an open mind. 

I actually like Facebook. It's great fun if used properly. 'Pages' about classic cars for instance, one of my hobbies and loves. And lets not pretend that any JW doesn't have some outside interest. 

6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I guess he wants Christians to sport the Charismatic Christian-look, Man-Bun included, somewhat tight pants, a Levi jacket and dark shades. For last I checked, a man who is to take the lead among the church is to suppose to shepherd the sheep that flock, not be borderline prepared for yoga sessions on a Saturday afternoon. Modesty is key, and it is important, just as it is important to maintain cleanliness.

That being said, Tesco? The Northern Fire Service Companies? If it is them, I assume those guys always dress the part for their business in a modest fashion.

I'll give you an instance. My brother 'invited' me to his house to help him take a ceiling down which he was having replaced. 

It was a very old ceiling, the house being over 100 years old. The work was very dirty. We took the ceiling down and left it of the room floor as there was lots of dust. So he suggested we went to McDonalds for some food to let the dust settle and clear our heads of the dust and grime. I agreed. However he changed his clothes to look smart before we went out. I said we would be continuing work when we returned so I would not change. Thereby came the difference of opinion. He said we should look smart at all time and I quoted God's word about Peter being naked and Jesus did not rebuke him. 

It is therefore my opinion that this 'being smart at all times' is teachings of men, not of God.

I can see the reasoning of being smart for meetings and field ministry, but not whilst working. 

Oh yes, the plasterer arrived to put up the plaster board and do the finishing work. He is a brother. He was so scruffy in his work overalls covered in paint and plaster i just had to laugh. 

3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Sound!!

Have you not read your bible. did not the Pharisees 'clean the outside of the bowl or cup and not the inside'.

Have you no understanding of how Satan works ?  

Keeping the child Abuse quiet and within the '4 walls' of the Org give the false impression that the Org is 'clean and safe'. 

There is also the possibility that those at the top of the 'tree' may be deeply involved in such abuse. The GB itself, some of them, may be 'on file' as being involved in such things. Not a direct accusation but a possibility. If not then why are they sooooo keen to withhold the information from the courts ? 

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In period of 1980 and on JW magazine talking about, as i read in this magazine, only women as victims. Second, WT talking about issue as a sin, not crime that have to be handled by secular authorities. 

And WT was seen perpetrators as persons who, if repent enough,  are as other ordinary sinners. 

So, i have to ask; IF GB and His Holy Nation and Only Organization on Earth not received much more better Instructions, from Heaven, in this matter - What makes WTJWorg so better from others in the past time  (from 1980 period on, because GB members loved to mention on TV how this Organization was almost first that spoken about this issue) ?  

Surely one who was sexually abused as a child can be certain of God’s understanding and loving acceptance. Why, Jehovah forgives even those who, unlike the abused child, commit gross sins—if they repent and change their course of action!—1 Corinthians 6:9-11. - https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w19831001/help-for-victim-of-incest/

From this it can be seen how "Scriptural Based Position" looks like. Child molestation is a gross sin that can be handled without much fuss in Judicial Committee of elders. 

 

Next thing: 

Thanks for link you provide. There is 3 point that is modern, advanced (21 century) view  made by WT. And they said;

A) Child sexual abuse is a perversion

B) Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor child abuse and view it as a crime.

C) Child abuse is a serious sin.

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection

 

When and how GB WTJWorg came to this NEW Instructions and attitude about issue?? With a Little Help of people who are under "devil control". When Courts, experts for child health, Commissions and other Secular Institutions made more talking and made some pressure on religious and other group, institution who HAVE Problem with this. 

Until today, as what i know,  WT Legal Department are not willing to fully cooperate with Courts and other Secular authorities in benefit to victims. Some victims want money, and why not. Because WT victims was not and perhaps will never heard Words of Sincere Repent and Apologize from all those who make them so miserable because not handled their matters and problems in a way that would imitate Heaven's Love, Comfort and Justice.  JWorg web was never, until now, said how GB and other people in position (elder) made (and making still now) big errors and not handled this properly in harmony with all good Instructions that can be found in The Holy Book and in Secular Books too.

Until now NO Public Apologize to Victims! Perhaps, and if they do it public, it would not be sincere ??!!  

This public attitude on JW TV how WT are purely innocent is something disgusting.

I almost cried when I read your comment here. In fact I am crying now. Thank you for your understanding of such things.

Warmest Christian love, John 

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

She did not do this.

What she essentially said is that you are too close to a tree to properly assess the forest.

She did not say what you are saying at all.

However although you have sneakily got that comment in (using anna as an excuse)  I cannot see how you have come to that conclusion.

The forest I'm looking at consists of, Australia, Canada, America, The Netherlands and the UK. Is that a big enough forest for you ? 

Maybe the tree you refer to is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, a rotten tree giving off rotten fruit. And the forest I'm looking at seems to prove my point.

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Would it not be wise to respond to JTR on the topic of which he posted in rather than start an entirely new topic that has little resolve?

A church who harbors leaders and or stewards, having authority over people of the church is not a Tradition of Men and it is hypocritical to think of it as such.

The structure of the church is of God's Order, the very reason we see in the Greek New Testament churches, with those being of authority in the church, hence being the head, and under them stewards and overseers, pastors, bishops and the like, the head with the church work as one, the head is only there to advise and instruct so that the church does not stray, did you miss what took place in the First Epistle to the Corinthians of how things went South only for Paul, write to them to correct the issue in a peaceable matter, even heeding word from a resident in the area regarding the issue?

Apostle Paul and anyone who is entrusted authority in the church is not a Pharisee, if you think of such, I suggest you tear out anything in relation to the church out of your Bible, as some have when this was raised to them.

Like I said before, the Jehovah's Witnesses are Restorationist, they do not make up their own rules, they go about following the Early Apostolic Church in order to keep the church spiritually upright, modest, maintain faith, nothing more.

They are not different from Biblehub, Blueletter, UCG, Biblestudytools, Christaintoday, BibleGateway, Bible Org, and over a dozen others.

The social media platform is to not only profess the faith, but of what the Bible teaches. Examples being, if we are to understand as to why they do not celebrate Christmas, they will inform you and give the reason, furthermore, you can go back centuries, predating them to find out even Christians at that time did not like Christmas at all for it was not something to be practiced by Christians, I informed Matthew6969 about this sometime ago and at that time I was more of facts vs. going about things from memory.

So how is telling the history of the Christ Tradition of Men? Surely if you say this of their own platform, you should be able to give an example and or point. I do not see anything out of whack in this sense, therefore, this statement of yours is a bluff and or unfounded.

Modesty, enough said. If modesty is not among them, Gang-Stalkers will be going to their churches in masses, and the category of Gang-Stalkers I am referring to is those with intent to go after men/women and subdue them into sexual immorality, something of which is very common and is seen all the time, thus those who claim to be Christian are not Christian for their actions and or what they have done, more or so, becoming a Gang-Stalker themselves.

A Christian should always be clean, always be modest, this is something the individual and or the church must adhere to without question. To do otherwise is only inviting of bad habits and or other associations that brings forth more unnecessary things into the church, regardless of who and or where.

The Disciple of the Christ, Simon Peter was lightly claded, granted, the implication that he was wearing some kind of inner garment while working, and likely was not naked. Did you really think, Peter, a Fisherman, would go 100% willy, nilly, breeze between his legs and knees while going fishing? He wouldn't jump into the water with his everyday clothing, so he strips of his outer garments, leaving him with his inner garments when going fishing, mind you, this is how it is done in ancient times, for Peter girded up his outer garments, even the art of this verse/passage shows this, as seen here:

 

I suggest you take a GOOD look at Strong's 1903 ????????? > https://biblehub.com/greek/1903.htm

If you really think he went in there 100% birthday suit, you missed a lot of what is going on here, and you do not pay attention to the Greek Strong's in this sense when it shows you the truth of the matter. That being said, if Simon Peter was alive on earth in 2018, most certainty he wouldn't be going into the sea with a suit and tie, or his good clothing he bought at Marshall with perhaps his iPhone in his pocket that contains his Scriptural Notes and studies, water damage would waste all of that.

This is because in today's day and age, as with us being imperfect, fleshy desires can be made manifest, just as sin can manifest in actions being done and or by doing nothing or not doing what you are suppose to do. This rule also stems in the likes of culture, mainly if you know the type of person the man and or woman is.

When it comes to the church, people have to be careful, for even those among them can step away and stray from what the bible teaches, and will commit to actions that will surprise the church and or others.

For surely, John, if you had/have a wife, you wouldn't want her being in the presence, alone with someone who does not really give a care for your views, beliefs and or background, for his intent will be something of minor to something major, mainly if you yourself do not trust the guy, in my language such ones are refereed to as Boy [fille] à la recherche de problèmes, a man/woman who seeks trouble.

So any extra precautions is often necessary so one does not stumble, it can be done by the church and or a family itself, or relative.

As far as I know, Jehovah's Witnesses main celebration is the Sacrifice the Christ has made for you, for them, for me, for all, in short, it is refereed to by them as the Memorial of Jesus Christ.

For Jesus never spoke of celebrating his birth, but rather, to remember his death and what it signifies.

These Traditional Holidays of Men do not stem from the Church, Christmas is an example because Jesus' birth is unknown and it was never on December, those who make claim can easily be defeated with a passage and Jewish Customs without much an effort.

People nowadays think Christmas is a Christian Holiday not realizing that even back then this Holiday was banned by Christians for a large number of reasons.

So if a Pastor says do not celebrate that or this, he is telling you. You have free will, you either take his word because it stems from what the Bible speaks against, or go about your own dwelling and celebrate such, not realizing anything of how the practice is in relation to spirits taking up a home, and or Sun God worship - the choice is yours.

Believe it or not, a lot of Christians, even Jews and Muslims do not celebrate most of the Holidays that most, mainly in the US, celebrate.

When sexual impulses arise, people who are unmarried will most likely end up having intercourse, mainly such is very, very, VERY common today since the mentality of I Don't Need to Marry to Have a Relationship is on the rise, families being started when those who create the family structure are not married at all.

For marriage is something of importance to God and we, as Christians should respect and honor that. The Bible says a man will leave his mother and father to be his wife, never has the Bible says a Man will leave his mother and father to live with his wife, and then get married.

And those that do, have to keep themselves in check, mainly when the whole marry ceremony didn't even take place yet, keep it together until marriage or you only show you were not ready for marriage to begin with, a mistake many people make.

People are not accused of having intercourse when not even married yet, but there are those with concern with the possibility of something to take place.

As for the last bit, people do not take issue with brothers living with brothers, just as a college dorm with only men, the issue is of those of the opposite sex being together in the same space, mainly when the two are attractive to each other and are not even married yet.

The very reason this type of segregation of sexes exist other institutions such as boy/girl scouts, you cannot put them in the same room, the same goes for college dorms, you cannot do that either, yet some try to break the rules and next thing you know, breaking news and expelling from campus and so forth. It is no different with a church trying to maintain and be very concern regarding this matter.

I myself, if I was a father, I would not want my daughter to be living with someone who is highly attracted with her, for if anything happens, it would be dishonoring of the family name, when news hits one family member, everyone finds out an it is utter chaos, but if the two were married, no chaos will ensue, and or if such ones are mature enough to keep themselves in check, save themselves for marriage and so forth.

You mention this time and time again and you will get the same answers over and over and over.

It isn't a matter of believing someone of abuse or not, it is a matter of what action the church is suppose to take for such a thing took place in their community, their circle, their church.

To be brief, the church will end up doing an internal investigation of their own, no different from other institutions and or cooperate institutions, etc. They will hold that information and will give said information if it is enough to be proven as evidence, the next thing they'll do is to instruct the abused and family to inform the police, for Religious and educational institutions normally, and it is common, do not want to succumb to the bystander effect regarding child abuse, but often times, they are through into the mix. Then comes trying to minimize those who seek blood regarding child abuse, hence the stories I posted before when families who are instructed to go to the police becomes the law themselves and will often become not helping the victim, but making things worse.

That being said, no one is stopping anyone from going to the police, as Child Abuse and Neglect Services TEACHES if one adults is of little to no help, seek another adult, I do not see how the PSA's and what is taught to children regarding child abuse isn't any clearer.

But not even these institutions are safe from Child Abuse, as of recent news even Playgrounds and Play-Areas in places like Restaurants abuse is done there now, Jungle Justice would have been the end of it but no one wants to be a bystander, and no one wants human blood on their hands for taking the law in their hands.

It is also good to mention C&N prevention teaches the signs of what an abuser tends to do, and the signs of someone who is abused, I, as do many, adhere to this and this is often brought up by the young ones I speak to at the B&G clubs.

But doing everything for God and trying to follow the Bible 100% makes you an enemy, today's Christendom only follows 50% and or less. This goes with what you have mentioned about Peter not realizing the context, assuming he was literally naked and or the other thread when you didn't realize how incorrect you and Srecko were when even Biblehub shows you the Strong's for that word in question.

If little things are amissed, you are lacking spiritually. We may have hiccups in some cases, but this is unacceptable, do not be like the Trinitarian who revealed to himself that he himself defeated his own words, and those are still here.

If you read the Bible, such things should be obvious, we may not agree with someone else, but it is our duty as Christians to maintain that neutrality, we speak up to the accursed, and when dealing with anyone who profess to he Apostolic Age it is very tricky because anything can easily land you in front of the white throne of Judgement,examples like knowing of whom God approves when you cannot speak for God, God speaks for himself.

The very reason why I educate myself on faiths of others and what is actually accursed, so I do not make the mistake mainstream Christendom makes, for there is an example already of how feelings, and opinions vs. Biblical Fact in one case, when both Witness and Srecko had been refuted regarding church authority.

I do not see how they are hypocrites for following this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Age

Mind you, we must not forget what you stated early on regarding those leading a church just as Paul and others have done, which can be read in the Bible, in Paul's case, he was giving instruct, trying to reason with those of the church, mainly to those in the Church of Corinth, and we see the outcome in Second Epistle to the Corinthians.

As far as I know, Restorationist will do what is necessary to follow the church and the teachings as time progresses, for if they were truly blind, people would see it, but the more they look at Restorationist Christians, the more then begin to question what is mainstream Christendom is doing. To add more fuel to the fire, you have Muslims pretty much exposing the lies of mainstream Christianity, thus nearly making the words of actual Christians in the correct. I've already posted a very nonsensical view of the holy spirit professed by the mainstream only for all 3 men to be defeated by a Muslim who reads the Bible.

And since we are talking about JWs here, the only JW I challenged a while back was a former Muslim turned JW, Pakistani known as Kathgar (a regular on the Dawah channels), for at the time, I was still learning, I challenged him on the actions of Israel and the only reason I id because of misinformation from an Agnostic guy who has a disdain for religion as a whole, at the same time in those debates taking place, I had to deal with tricky Trinitarians, those of whom who ignore the teachings of the church and rely on Bibles that contains errors and forgery, hence by dislike of the KJV, ONLY due to the Spurious text and erroneous changes.

The only part of your comment i will bother to answer is the point of Peter being naked whilst fishing.

I say naked because the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have put exactly that in their translation of their newest Bible. 

If they see fit to use the word naked then i presume they mean naked. And they say they are guided by God's holy spirit. 

Please remember, I am only interested in what Jehovah's Witnesses say and do, and what instruction their leaders give them. 
 

7 hours ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER

First of all I want to say I am very sorry you had such terrible experiences as a child. I understand more now how this issue must affect you.

Also I think we’ve had quite a bit of misunderstanding here  as well. I am sorry I doubted the pedophilia  problem was the only reason you left JW.  You make a lot of accusatory statements  but you don’t back them up with facts.  I know, this would take a long time so here are just a few facts that I am familiar with; Yes, there is no doubt that some elders mishandled child molestation cases. I know of one personally in my old congregation in England which involved an influential elder.  When his disgusting behaviour was found out (he actually never had sex with his victims, but he was a groper) he was merely removed from his position as Elder but remained a full time pioneer.  This happened  sometime in the late 80’s. I was  a teenager busy with my teenage life so I didn’t pay much attention at the time. I just remember the notoriety and rumours surrounding this man. Even my mum told me some stuff about him. Anyway, a few months ago I got to talking to a friend on FB.  I will call her Jane. She had faded about 25 years ago and is no longer attending meetings etc. The conversation turned to a  mutual friend of ours from the same cong. and I said I had the feeling that her dad had abused her as a child and that is why she was messed up.  Jane then proceeded to tell me that when she was in her early teens this elder would grope her inappropriately while having Bible study with her. She never said anything to anyone then.  Some months later the same Elder made a big mistake by groping the breast of another friend of mine while she was breastfeeding her first child (at an assembly of all things!). When the father of that sister found out he went ballistic and said if he ever sees that elder he will kill him. (I remembered that).  This got the attention of the elders in the hall and they began to handle the matter. In the meantime my friend Jane did a #metoo and I believe another sister came forward as well.  Like I said, a judicial committee was held in another city, with the CO involved, but all that happened was the elder got stripped of his position. Jane told me that she had to sleep with the lights on for weeks in fear that this elder would get her because she ratted on him.  I didn’t know anything about this at the time. She also told me that she holds no grudge against the org. That they did the best they could in those days as it wasn’t the custom in society ( I mean society in general)  to deal with those things the same way as they are being dealt with now.  She told me her parents weren’t discouraged from going to the police, but they never went.  I guess because it didn’t involve rape.  (The father was not a JW).  Why I am telling you this real life story is because it highlights a few factors.

 1. Child molestation (sexual or otherwise) was not discussed in society in general some decades ago.

2. What happened and how/if things were dealt with in the congregation was very much a matter of how much fuss there was made. This depended on:

3. People. The congregations are comprised of all kinds of people, some very shy and others very outspoken. The father of the sister who was breastfeeding was very outspoken. My mother, if anything like this would have happened to me, would have been very outspoken, no questions asked she would have caused an almighty fuss. And if she deemed it necessary she would have marched to the police, no questions asked.  And she is a very spiritual and zealous JW and the elders respected her very much.

I am sure you have heard of the Candace Conti case while you were doing your research. The Conti case was a classic example of a dysfunctional family that was not fully aware of what was happening in their own lives, never mind that of their child (Candace).  My friend Jane’s parents were not bad, but they were different to my family. Had the elder groped me while having Bible study I would have gone straight to my mum and told her what happened. I know I would have done that because my mum and I have a very close and communicative relationship. In fact an uncle of mine (not a JW) groped me one day ( I was 14) and I went straight to my mum and told her about it. She went straight to her sister (my aunt, also not a JW) and told her what her husband did to me. So my aunt went straight to the uncle, furious. Needless to say my uncle never touched me again.

You see it takes all kinds of people who make up a congregation, and that is why no single case is the same, and why some cases never come to the fore until decades later, and why some cases drag on and never seem to get resolved.

What I take away from all this is that of course no elder or publisher or parent, or anyone in their right mind wants to shield child molesters. Of course the org. doesn’t want to shield child molesters.  No one does. (Why would anyone want a pedophile running lose in their congregation?! The elders have children too!) The only people that are protective of child molesters are those who are in the child porn and human trafficking industry.  And if you want to look at it from a very logical perspective, why would Jehovah’s Witnesses, with their ultra high moral standards, of all people, would want to willingly shield someone who was practicing the vilest of moral depravity?

For decades JWs have been publishing magazines on the dangers of moral decline and the dangers of child sexual molestations and took it even further than “stranger danger” by drawing attention to the fact that this danger can come from  people the child knows, and even from family members. I still remember that Awake magazine. Did the dysfunctional families that needed to read this information read it? Probably not....

There is no denying the child sexual molestation issue was not always dealt with in the correct way, but it seems none of the ideas (like not reporting to police) came from instructions from the org. but was decided on by the body of elders, or sometimes even just one dominant elder. In the past, the elders were not required to call the branch for advice like they are now, and they pretty much did their own thing. This is the reason why now elders have to call the branch as soon as anything like this comes to light, so that they get consistent  instruction on what to do.

And yes, I believe the ARC did us a good service. I believe it was because of them our child policies have become transparent across the board in the shape of the Child protection packet:

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection

As for the two witness rule, well that is not much different to secular authorities implementation of "innocent until proven guilty". But notice in par 10 of the document it mentions this: "If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter".—Romans 13:1-4.

So in view of that, the two witness rule applies only in a congregational setting. If secular authorities find enough evidence to convict said perpetrator, and this is where it gets interesting, then even if elders have not gathered enough evidence to support their decision to disfellowship or not disfellowship, then the fact that said perpetrator has been charged with sexual molestation will automatically warrant a disfellowshipping. So either way, the perpetrator will not escape punishment.

Thank you for this honest reply. 

I don't know exactly what  'accusatory statements' you refer to but I'm sure if you pinpointed some i could come up with the information needed. Something like this maybe ?

 https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-tab-for-child-sex-abuse-secrecy-2m-and-counting/

https://outlook.live.com/mail/AQMkADAwATYwMAItZDdmMC05N2MwLTAwAi0wMAoALgAAA6zYzl6NWINBh5mEBtpxYecBAOZT%2BWnUkplMsl09lQMAhOQAAAIBVAAAAA%3D%3D/id/AQMkADAwATYwMAItZDdmMC05N2MwLTAwAi0wMAoARgAAA6zYzl6NWINBh5mEBtpxYecHAOZT%2BWnUkplMsl09lQMAhOQAAAIBVAAAAOZT%2BWnUkplMsl09lQMAhOQAAdr6294AAAA%3D

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/jehovahs-witnesses-congregations-efforts-to-block-inquiry-squashed

This might not be what you are looking for but it's a start. 

In your reply you said that the brother was removed from his position but was still a full time pioneer. So, he was still allowed to represent Jehovah full time although being known to be acting in a way that Jehovah hates. He was also a danger to the public but the Elders didn't seem to worry about that. 

That is one important point that JW's don't seem to think about. Yes they say they deal with matters 'in house' but that pedophile doesn't live 24 /7 'in house' does he ?  The Pedophile goes out into the public places, such as on the ministry and in general life. 

Does the general public not deserve to be shown the love, to be protected against such pedophiles ?  Law or not, surely the Elders have a 'duty of care' to the public and to report a suspect to the police. For instance, the police can get a search warrant to search a person's home, to look at content on a person's computer, maybe finding images of children being abused, and information about other pedophiles in pedophile rings. All this could stop further child abuse.. 

ONe other point to your reply. You said that child Abuse wasn't known about or as common years ago. Then why did the Governing Body start building up a 'collection' of files for the last twenty years. 1997 - 2017 and why did they refuse to obey the law of the land by refusing to hand over thins information to the courts ? 

The Two Witness rule meant that many accusations were deliberately dismissed as lies. Therefore no proceedings of any type took place against the accused and that person maintained a clean record of conduct within the Org. That meant in some cases that if it was a man he could become an Elder or continue as an Elder, giving him ever morescope to abuse young ones.

Enough for one reply i think, John 

9 hours ago, Anna said:

 @JOHN BUTLER I don't have time reply in any detail now (I will some time later) but I just want to let you know I am neither American, nor an elder, nor an elder's wife . The closest I come to an elder is my step dad is one.

Ah, Thank you. That is still a close relationship to one.  I thought i could see some influence there. 

11 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER I am American yes. Originally from "New England".

 

Um thought so. Well at least that will give me some reason for not taking your comments too seriously.  

I do honestly think that in America 'collateral damage ' is taught as being unimportant. That can make a big difference to people's thinking. 

2 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER  ok. I stand corrected. I thought that was part of your reason.  (nothing underhanded intended)

As for the English. ... Well... I wouldn't differentiate them from those in the USA all that much. 

Neither side is squeaky clean. Need I mention British Colonial rule?

@admin Thanks for checking into that again. Don't mean to be a bother.

 

I tend to comment on the previous comment, not go back into the distant history of what a person many have said before. However you are entitled to believe whatever makes you happy.  I've never ever said that my daughter's problems have swayed my thinking in that regard. 

I could let it niggle me but I won't, as I'm sure that is what you intended. 

I don't know who is for or against the JW Org and it's not important to me. I only know that, at this moment in time i cannot be part of it. 

I'm hoping God will sort it all out soon as those in or out of the Org will need some guidance at Judgement Day. 

5 minutes ago, admin said:

OMG! @The Librarian is at it again..... Ok...Ok... I will go now and ask the developers to look into threaded replies... AGAIN.....

You really need to chill  ;-).  You are your people are SO intense.... I don't understand half of what you guys argue about in all honesty.

I think I'm ruffling feathers in the JW brigade. There seems to be a gang up on JB movement taking place  

Is The Librarian American ?  He does seem to have attitude. 

2 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER  I am not judging you for your stance on the scandal within JW.org or even your leaving due to a daughter being disfellowshipped.

I simply wish @admin would give us "threaded replies" so that people could stay on topic.

Nothing worse than starting on one topic only to find an interesting conversation about tree fungus nested 5 pages inside.

Yes. I do believe in freedom of speech as well.

Wow, underhanded or what. 

I DID NOT LEAVE THE JW ORG BECAUSE ONE OF MY DAUGHTERS WAS DISFELLOWSHIPPED. 

In fact at the time i didn't know if she had left of her own accord or been disfellowshipped because my concern was for her wellbeing not for the nitty gritty details. I'm English you see, I think it makes a difference. We English actually care about people. 

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Hmmm, I don't think it would go down well with the shoppers at Tesco if I went to the store in the buff.

Having never seen you I cannot answer that  

I can't understand why Peter went fishing in the nude anyway. It must be a dirty smelly job.

But my point was that Jesus never rebuked Peter.  However the Elders will tell a brother off for attending a meeting whilst not wearing a tie. 

4 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER This would be the topic for you to discuss why you left JW.org  and the pedophilia problem.

Please try to keep on topic 

These posts above were moved from a topic regarding Sam Herd on a completely unrelated topic.

Um, I can see I am not liked by many for my stance against the Child Abuse serious problem in the JW Org. 

However it seems ok for Anna to call me a liar. 

My love for God, whether Jehovah or Yahweh, will not dwindle, and I will continue to pray through Jesus Christ. 

I will also continue to mention the CHILD ABUSE / PEDOPHILIA within the JW org, unless you ban me of course.

But no, I think you believe in freedom of speech.  

5 hours ago, admin said:

@JOHN BUTLER  When this country (USA) was in its infancy the founding fathers would often use anonymous letters and newspapers to get across their message of freedom in spite of the British tyranny.

Honesty? 

I would say we are seeing the enabling of MOBS on social media who are violating the rights of free speech every day.

Check out this latest occurrence with James Woods

His "Honesty" cost him his "voice".....

Hence the rediscovery by the people of FORUMS... FOR THE PEOPLE.

 

Um, I suppose I better not start on my opinion of the USA, freedom, honesty, etc.  I'll just say Native Americans. 

2 hours ago, Anna said:

It's the English language again. When someone says in this context that they don't believe (or believe) something, doesn't mean they think the other person is lying, it merely means I am expressing my opinion on the matter. In this case I don't think the only reason for John's leaving was the child abuse problems, although John might think so. Perhaps when John really thinks about it he may realize that there were other things in the religion that he was unhappy about and this was just the last straw. I am sure our research is similar.  But the difference is, although I am aware we have made mistakes, I am not prepared to "throw the baby out with the bath water". I sincerely believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the true religion, with all their faults. I have had quite a lot of experience in life and I have seen some bad stuff happen in congregations. And as you know, I do not agree with everything. I have experienced other religions, and seen how the "world" does things. So I think I have a pretty broad outlook. But  @JOHN BUTLER has decided that the religion is not for him, and that is his right. Yes, we all reach different conclusions, because we understand things differently.

Are you an Elder's wife, or even an elder in drag ?  

When i was 13 years old I was taken from my parents and placed in a 'Children's Home' in my hometown of Reading Berkshire England. 

I was taken from my parents through the court, for not attending senior school on a regular basis. 

Now a Children's Home is a council run 'house' which is supposed to be a 'safe and kind environment' to help children.

No, it was a wicked place. Whist there I suffered sexual abuse, physical beatings, emotional torment and mental strain, not from the other boys, but by the people employed to run the 'house'. I was taken to a 'head shrink' and put on drugs, which quietened me down, so that the male homosexual pedophile social worker could sexually assault me on a regular basis. 

Remember now that this was a council / government run establishment. Therefore I could not run to the police for help as they would have defended the 'Home' against me. I was constantly threatened that if I told anyone I would be sent to an 'Approved School', which I knew to be ten times worse.

At 16½ I found employment as was then able to leave the Home, although i was still under the control of the Social services until i was 18. But having been kept on drugs until I left, I then needed a replacement. So I became a small time drugs dealer so that i could get my own share for free. At that time in my life I was not a nice person to be with.  I attempted suicide once and was unconscious for at least three days. 

Then at around age 18 or 19 my brother introduced me to the JW version of the 'truth'. It seemed fantastic. Almost unbelievable. Etc, etc , etc.

Then a couple of years ago I first heard about the accusations of pedophilia in the JW Org.  I tried my best to ignore it as most JW's do. But finally last year, around August /September time I did my own research. What i found out made me sick in my stomach. What I've learnt about how Elders have treated congregants, especially young ones, has made me more than bitter.

It has affected me in many ways. Firstly, the Governing Body has made rules that go directly against Jehovah God. Secondly, the Elders have carried out those rules just like puppets on strings, with no emotions, no love and most importantly no respect for Jehovah God.

This has brought shame on Jehovah's name. 

Next, and unless you have experienced similar, you will have no idea, and I mean NO IDEA. I feel so much pain for the victims that have to live with the memories, the nightmares and the shame they feel. 

And I relive all my horrific past every time I read the next installment of the disgusting behavior of the Elders in the many congregations Earthwide, yes EARTHWIDE. I only know about, Australia, Canada, America, The Netherlands and the UK. But it must be in every nation, every country that Jehovah's Witnesses are in. 

So I tell you again, I LEFT THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ORGANISATION BECAUSE OF THE CHILD ABUSE / PEDOPHILIA  PROBLEM EARTHWIDE. 

On 9/29/2018 at 7:24 AM, admin said:

We put privacy back in the hands of our members.
 

With social media, it only takes a few clicks to discover more. It's easy to look at your political leanings, which area you live in, what your favourite films are and so on.

All that information comes with you when you join a community on Facebook whether you like it or not.

With a forum, you can create your own personality unique for that forum. You don't need to reveal your real name, or photo.

We really like that.

Um, so people can pretend to be someone else and tell lies and do all sorts of mischief

I much prefer to use my own name and be the real person i am. I think it's known as honesty.

Last September (2017),  there was internet info regarding a $66 million dollar lawsuit being filed against Jehovah's Witnesses in Canada, for Child Abuse / Pedophilia.

I haven't been able to find out any more information this year and would be very pleased if someone could update me on outcome or ongoing situation.

http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2017/10/23/jehovahs-witnesses-hit-with-66-million-sexual-abuse-lawsuit-in-ontario/

This is probably not a good link to add but it's just one of many online. 

5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Read over all the comments, but especially mine to Space Merchant, in which I said the wicked will not be there based on the scriptures from Jesus and others.

Unrighteous people are not categorised as wicked.   They do wrong things due to lack of knowledge or being brought up in a society which does not know God's laws.  Note the experiences in the various Yearbooks with people who were violent and became lamb-like on learning the truth.  For example, note the attitude of the thief beside Jesus on the torture stake: He had respect for Jesus and faith in Jesus coming Kingdom, and he knew Jesus did nothing wrong, whereas the other thief  mocked Jesus and was disrespectful although he was about to die. Jesus knew the difference, as he could read hearts. He said the thief that asked Jesus to remember him will  be in Paradise with him (the earthly realm of the paradise).

I don't think you are reading and meditating, I think you are too quick to ask someone else, and to ask questions that were already answered.

 

 

So where does that leave all those JW Elders that are guilty of Child Abuse, or guilty of hiding the Child Abuse within the Org ? 

Where doe it leave the Governing Body that deliberately makes the rules to hide the Pedophiles and refuses to cooperate with the law of the land, even though it does not conflict with God's laws ? 

Are they unrighteous or wicked ? 

On 9/22/2018 at 11:14 PM, Anna said:

I thought hot cross buns were only British, are they in  America also?

Don't know but I'm in Devon England and I've always eaten them and the so called easter eggs. Buns and chocolate yum yum.

I remember working with a few brothers on a building site (two brothers owned the business) and i had mince pies. I offered them around and no one would have one. I thought it was so funny. 

Remember, it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, it's what come out of the mouth that can defile a person. 

6 hours ago, Nicole said:

(NEWS NOW) .- Three people who were arrested when, naked, had kidnapped a family, were members of the church of the Jehovah's Witnesses who were sure of the imminent and early arrival of the end of the world, according to new documents of the court.

Canadian media have obtained court documents that reveal that three people arrested, two women and one man, have pleaded guilty to kidnapping and holding a family hostage; one of the women admitted to driving in a dangerous way.

In November of 2017, this case was news after Canadian authorities responded to an emergency call for a crash in an industrial park. When the police arrived, they found a group of people chanting "Jehovah" and refusing to leave the vehicle.

Inside the vehicle, a white BMW, there were five people, four of them were naked despite the low temperatures, which reached less than 10 degrees Celsius, or 14 Fahrenheit.

The people in the car, according to the statements of the police, presented "extreme resistance and force" when refusing to be arrested and receiving electric shocks from the police.

Read more:  https://noticiasya.com/las-vegas/2018/09/27/testigos-de-jehova-desnudos-raptaron-a-familia-esperando-el-armagedon/

Sorry but i think this is funny. Were they really Jehovah's Witnesses ? 

Please tell me. Do you have any news about the 66 million dollar law suit against the Jehovah's witnesses in Canada ? 

If what I've just read is true, and it seems to be, then the JW Org has just lost another 35 MILLION DOLLARS.

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

No one here can explain their position I guess. Then again, I guess no one here would need to since the publications already state the position jws are suppose to accept. 

 

So then this lead me to another question.......

 

The wt says that they (jws) are going to be the only ones left after Armageddon,  whom are they going to fight in the end after the 1000 year reign? Other jws? I guess so, since they are the only ones left..........how does that fit with the whole "we don't go to war" thing? oops, "Houston we have a problem"

I don't know about anyone fighting anyone else BUT, there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the UNrighteous. 

The righteous are the ones that served God before they died. The unrighteous are the ones that didn't serve God before they died.

So, the unrighteous will be given the chance to learn about God, hence millions of 'Bible studies' in the resurrection. Then they will be judged near the end of the 1,000 years. But it seems many will chose to be in opposition to God at that time. 

That all seems to make sense in a practical way. If it's true or not only time will tell. 

Now as for your first sentence. "The wt says that they (jws) are going to be the only ones left after Armageddon", well I don't believe they have the right to say that, if they did actually say it. 

I can see some sort of reasoning such as, 'only one ARK' 'only those in the ARK survived'. 'Only Noah and his family did just as God commanded'. That bit makes sense.

But i think it gets far more complicated than that.  (will write more later).