JOHN BUTLER

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The Multiverse I was referring to was the 11 or so dimensions indicated by String Theory, a subset of Quantum Mechanics ... not the comic book Multiverse.

 

Heavy stuff dudes. 

11 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

damn typical fashion!!!! UGH, distracted this from the main topic by means of the shell game. 

You're good mr gone away, very good. I bit. 

 

Back to our regular scheduled program. 

 

 

So which is it? Alliance with the Bible on who is still here after Armageddon or the wt and its publications? 

Well for anyone truly wanting to serve God properly it has to be alliance with God's written word. in fact serving God not serving the GB of JW Org. 

However i do have many thoughts about the Bible, such as was it written only for a certain type of people to understand fully. The Bible was written with the aid of Holy Spirit, so then is it only fully understandable by an anointed class who have a 'special' relationship with God ?

Then of course comes the next question.“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

In my opinion it cannot be the Governing Body of the JW Org for many reasons. One reason being that they change their minds about the meaning of scriptures so often. This is like taking the food out of someone's mouth whilst they are yet chewing it, and then putting different food in... 

Another reason is obviously the Child Abuse /  Pedophilia issues, which a loving caring anointed class wound not allow to happen. 

And another reason being the way they lump heavy burdens on the congregants by means of 'traditions of men'. Shunning being one example. 

So. 'Who really is.......................... Well God will have to let us know for sure before the Judgement comes, otherwise will it have been fair to us if we are in confusion ?

8 hours ago, Gone Away said:

At least that's the regular place that speech was intended to come from. ?

Glad to hear. None from me either.

Still trying to figure out what practices you are observing.

I'm not surprised you went, the way you describe your experiences. You seem to have been in one of those cookie congs. At least you have been able to stop playing the hypocrite. It must have been a great relief to actually come out.

The more the better. I'm glad to see the back of old fashioned, run down, half empty, under-utilised buildings, particularly in countries that can afford better. A bit of pruning never hurts.

And good riddance to all these unecessary bits of paper. I don't even need a "ministry" bag any more most of the time or silly plastic sleeves, let alone the saving in shelf space. And I'm actually going through Bibles in only a little more than 12 months now. Much more effective approach.

Anyway folks, have the last words if you wish. Nothing personal if I don't respond further on this thread. I'm glad at least you have each other. Bye for now. ?

Nice to read some humour in the morning.  

1 minute ago, Shiwiii said:

you are correct John. 

Not only that but the continuous payment on building loans to wt headquarters after those loans have been paid back to the bank in full by the wt.  

So is it true that the JW Org is running out of money ? I do know they are selling Kingdom Halls here in the UK.

And the reduction in both magazines and book publications, inc Calendars and Day Texts.

Some might say it's because 'we are close to the end of this system' but I think it's because they are running out of money. 

6 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

You're outa touch my baby, my poor old fashioned baby........

Not here in the UK I'm not. The congregations are only allowed to keep so much then have to hand over the rest. 

I only left the Org in the beginning of this year, so i do know what I'm talking about.

But of course you can try to belittle me as it's the thing JW's do. 

3 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Look, even the most basic comprehension of this topic demonstrates its pathetic reasoning. Covering costs is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses are about, hence a per capita assessment, which makes perfect economic sense. You are presenting this (covertly) as if it were comparable to a levy, such as the tithing arrangement so favoured by some, or, as explicitly stated as a "passing the plate" excercise similar to that carried out customarily by others. I am not going to argue the case further on that point, but I would suggest a more careful marshalling of facts is really in order here.

To compare Jehovah's Witnesses discussions on necessary contributions for the funding of religious activities to those of organisations  such as "Catholic/Hindu/Christian/" (and I am sure you would include other groups in your representative listing), seems a benighted position to take.

Literally decades ago, the following observation was made by respected academics, R. Stark & L. R. Iannaccone, regarding the prudent use of resources by Jehovah's Witnesses: 

"In 1992, the combined efforts of the Protestant churches of the United States and Canada sustained 41,142 overseas missionaries at a cost of more than $2 billion a year (Siewert & Kenyon, 1993). That same year, there were 3,279,270 “ overseas” Jehovah’s Witness publishers (nearly all of whom were native-speakers of the language of their mission area) operating on a total budget of $45 million (Yearbook, 1993: 33, 40). That is 80 times as many missionaries for a tiny fraction of the cost." (Journal of Contemporary Religion, Vol.12, No2, 1997).

Jehovah's Witnesses are quite happy to contribute both time and cost-covering money to furthering the interests of what they consider to be God's Kingdom at this time. And that includes direction on costs, along with information on cost-effective and efficient methods to make financial contributions to cover those costs.

So basically, Get over it! It is patently obvious that value for money when it comes to the activities of Jehovah's Witnesses is beyond criticism. Not beyond jealousy however, (Ez.38:11-12).

These other groups you mention appear to be covering far more than costs.

And who is paying the Victims of Child Abuse then ? Who paid the two million dollar (Supreme Court of California) court costs ? 

Who paid those two ex-brothers the hidden amounts for the abuse they suffered ?

Where oh where do you think all that money is coming from ? Remembering that this problem is now Earthwide. 

On 9/20/2018 at 5:48 PM, Melinda Mills said:

(Luke 20:35) but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.

All will not be counted worth of a resurrection from the dead.

(John 5:28, 29) Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
 

Only those in God's memory will be resurrected - hence memorial tombs.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength. . .
 

(Jude 7) 7 In the same manner, Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.
 

(Matthew 25:41) “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
(Matthew 25:46) These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
 

Second death, everlasting fire, everlasting destruction, annihilation  means these people who die are not in God's memory.

Just to confirm that all who have died will not get a resurrection.

God is not a man that he should tell lies, so we don't have to worry about the what ifs.

Luke 20 v 35. I think you misuse that scripture. Surely that is saying those counted worthy of the heavenly calling will never marry... Because they will be spirit persons.... Or are you suggesting that humans will never marry in the 'New world' here on Earth. If so then isn't that going against God's 'original plan' for men and women ? 

Only those in God's memory will be resurrected - hence memorial tombs. Yes but not only good people. If the penalty of sin is death, then by dying surely a person had paid the price for their sins. Hence will they have the one thousand years to be taught Jehovah's ways and to change to becoming a 'servant of the true God' ? 

Matthew 25 v 41 Is talking about the judgement day ( Armageddon ) not those being resurrected. And people will be judged individually. There will be a judgement or testing at the end of the 1000 years for all humans. 

53 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

lets try this another way. According to the publications produced by the wt:

What group solely has any scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system? 

 

What group must one identify with to gain salvation?

 

If we left a group and lost the hope of life in God's new world because of leaving this group, what group would that be? 

Yes it seems that the GB of the JW Org think they own God. And this must relate to the other discussion about whether the GB have put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ. 

We know that no one comes to the Father except through the Son. So we approach Jehovah through Jesus Christ. And, Jesus Christ has been given power and authority to judge us all.   Um, no mention of being a member of the Org here. We will all be judged as individuals either by Christ or the Angels, if the Angels have been given authority to do so.

However i was talking (calmly) about this with my wife over dinner. It would be sensible for God to have a useable organisation here on earth at the time of Judgement... If as it seems, the GB, and therefore at present the JW Org, are not suitable for purpose, then what will Jehovah / Jesus Christ do ? The GB are stumbling so many that they must be blood guilty of much. Hundreds of people are leaving the JW Org earthwide. This is because congregants can see the GB and elders are acting against the instructions given by Christ. So therefore if someone leaves the Org for the right reasons, as I did, I cannot see that Jehovah or Jesus Christ would punish them. 

Or do you think people should continue to offer children to Molech just to please the GB. 

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

 

 

Are you both serious? Really? 

You mean to tell me that you cannot see the similarities between passing the plate and requesting money? Had this come from the Catholic church encouraging their members to fork over some money, you two would be going over some dialog in your minds of how jws are so much better because the jws don't do that. The fact of the matter is ALL churches do it. They all do it for the same exact reasons stated here and elsewhere, to cover expenses. Do some spend it frivolously and are wasteful? Sure. Is any one group innocent in their dealings with the peoples money 100% of the time, probably not. Are there some who try to use the money responsibly? No doubt. But to look down your nose at another group while ignoring your own actions is the perfect definition of hypocrisy.    

Or maybe some do it (GB of JW Org) to pay off the fines and pay off the victims of Child Abuse. And it's funny how many payments are done in secret with the victims not allowed to tell how much they received..... Well that money has to come from somewhere. 

I do believe even the individual congregations are not allowed to keep their own money now. They have to hand over any 'extra' that they may have been keeping for repairs etc...  So remember folks when you put your money in the little box, you are paying to keep those pedophiles hidden in the congregations................  

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I thought I was going to be reading  about your whiny  indignation at being called a liar ... but was pleasantly surprised by an irrefutable piece of logic and reasoning.

You are right!

So now the question arises .... WHY .... on this issue (apparently ALONE)  has the GB decided that "THIS ts the Hill we are willing to die on ..."?

For good detectives, information is related in some way ... and is cumulative ... hence the occasional revelation ...  "Hey! ...  (facepalms forehead with a slap) ... it all a ADDS UP!"

SOMEWHERE IN THIS MORASS IS A GEM OF TRUTH. 

ABOUT WHY.

I suppose it's like hunting for REAL gems.   You have to dig through tons and tons of irrelevant spoil material to get to them.

I really do have a laugh at your comments. Although to read that you say i am right is nice. 

However from line three onward it seems as if you are writing just for the fun of it. which is fine of course, but it makes no sense to me. 

The only reason why that I can fathom is that the GB love having control over people. And, like the Pharisees, they make up their own rules known as 'the traditions of men'. 

Traditions of men in the JW Org :-

Men must wear a suit and tie. Women are not allowed to wear trousers, must wear dress or skirt.

A witness must be dressed in a tidy manner at all times (even though Peter went fishing naked).

A Man is not allowed to be alone with a Woman he is not married to, unless it suits the elders of course..

A Witness can only celebrate the things the GB say they can.

Oh there is of course much more of the same... 

But, if you are saying that every man only has a woman friend to have sex with, then that is a narrow minded viewpoint. But it seems to be the viewpoint of the GB. To accuse people of having sex just because they have been in the same building together seems a bit OTT in my viewpoint. And then what of two brothers or two sisters ? Would the GB accuse them of the same these days ?  I've known brothers that live together in the same house, oh dear ! 

The question should arise as to WHY do the GB and the Elders not believe a child or adult when that one reports Child abuse ? 

The obvious answer is, that it is more convenient for the Org not to believe it, and therefore not to act on it. 

As for me, I'm not important. The scriptures tell us that none of us are important. So what is important of course is the sanctification of God's name and trying to serve God to the best of our ability.  This brings me back to square one. 

The GB are doing neither of the above. They are trying to clean the outside of the dish or cup but not cleaning the inside. Jesus called such people hypocrites. 

It really stuns me that some people cannot see that the GB are bringing shame on Jehovah's name. They are also stumbling so many people. 

14 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't believe this was the only reason. I did an approximate 3 month research too, and I'm still here (one of Jehovah's Witnesses). And don't tell me I didn't do proper research, or that I was biased. Those who know me on here can verify that my research was pretty thorough and unbiased. 

If you do not believe me then it seems you are calling me a liar. This is general practice for JW's that don't want to believe something. It starts with the GB and follows through with the elders. The Two Witness rule being a good example. Do you honestly think the Two Witness rule was meant to be used in a Child Abuse case ? And yet it is not used when a couple are accused of fornication. 

However, I shall say again. I left the JW Org because of the Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem Earthwide. I found out how serious the problem was by doing three months research online... It was impossible to talk about it in the congregation because it would have been a 'crime' worthy of disfellowshipment. 

Are you American ? (I never bother trying to dig into people's personal info'). The reason i ask is because Americans are raised on the thinking of 'Collateral damage' being ok. So it seems with you, if you are in agreement with the GB. However Jesus said ....

But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith, it would be better for him if a millstone that is turned by a donkey were put around his neck and he were pitched into the sea. (Mark 9 v 42)

Your GB seem to think otherwise. They think it is ok to ruin lives by allowing pedophiles to be hidden in the JW Org. Oh, how many people have been stumbled by this ? How much blood does your GB have on their hands ? 

So you see, I honestly and sincerely could not go out and teach others, with the intention of bringing them into an Org, that allows such wicked things to happen. I did not want to be responsible for giving people a false sense of security, knowing the safety of their children could be at such risk.... 

Whether you believe me is of no importance of course. What is important is that God Himself knows the truth of the matter and either He or Jesus Christ will judge me on it. 

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

@Jack Ryan Unfortunately Expelling and Shunning Commands do exist and it is based on what has been entrusted to the church by means of the Christ, of which is later practices by those who had authority over the church, examples being Apostle Paul. Such goes by other names being Herem Censure and or the Takfir, excommunication, etc. Only ONE form out of the Three practices of Expel/Shun command is correct, and only a FEW Christians are aware of this and practice such while others use the TWO other incorrect forms.

This is why you have people today calling Paul a lair, not knowing the origin of such practices of which the early church taught, and we have those ignorant of this small bit of information, as if Armstrong and or anyone who knows this information well makes it any clearer.

 

Even outside of religion, such is in practice.

No disrespect but i do wish you would keep the topic on the Jehovah's Witnesses only when the topic is such. 

There is no point telling what other 'religions' do, or what the outside world does. Surely you would know that the JW's are supposed to be 'no part of this word' and should not be influenced by anyone other than God and Jesus Christ, and the Bible.  

14 hours ago, Anna said:

I won't deny that there are some congregants who do not think for themselves and prefer to have someone else think for them. But that is not the objective of the the GB. I can't see how that would be to their advantage. They want our trust and cooperation, yes, but what personal advantage is it to them if they have "power and control" over people? They believe they are going to leave the earth and live in heaven in the near future. They are just doing their job they feel they have been assigned by Christ, which is to get the kingdom message preached, and keep the congregations morally and spiritually clean There is nothing sinister behind that.

Unfortunately, in my opinion as I've said before, and as the scripture says, the GB have become the 'wicked slave' that says the master is delaying, then the wicked slave starts to beat his fellow slaves etc etc.. 

"and keep the congregations morally and spiritually clean" you say. Then explain to me the whole situation of the Child Abuse / pedophilia problem in their Org. And why the GB refused to hand over the twenty years worth of documents pertaining to same, when the Supreme Court of California demanded it. After all the scriptures say to 'be obedient to the law of the land as long as it doesn't conflict with God's law. 

The Pedophilia problem has been hidden in the JW Org for much longer than i know. But in 1997 the GB started collecting all the USA accusations together. The 'orders' were given that the elders must keep quiet about it all and not reveal any Pedophiles within their own congregation. Congregants were ordered not to inform the police and not to go to any outside authority. Children and adults that didn't have 'two witnesses' were called liars. Those same people were disfellowshipped when they wanted justice. And you pretend that the GB were "just doing their job they feel they have been assigned by Christ". Hypocrisy at its best. 

1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

The word “SHUN” is an antagonistic word. It only has true meaning in a worldly society that doesn’t understand between having people sin to a point, it merits scriptural discipline. Keeping the congregation clean is certainly NOT shunning. Within that word, you have different variations to suit the needs of individuals, and families. A DF’d family member will not receive scriptural enlightenment if that person continues in their worldly ways. What would be the point to accept the behavior of those that go against Gods laws? 1 Corinthians 5:11-13

 

What love for thy brother does one show when human intervention is blinded by sympathy rather than have your brother change course and repent? Hebrews 10:27-29

 

Those that think it’s heartless, reject Gods purpose for correcting humanity to a more disciplined unit of faithful Christians. What’s the advantage to stay complacent? Humanity would have learned nothing from Christ and millennia of suffering.

 

What people seem to forget, with our personal human emotion, we are responsible to God himself in everything we do? If we are subject to discipline, we brought that upon ourselves. Regardless of how personal one might feel. EXCLUSIVE devotion is demanded by God for a true Christian.

 

Does that mean, there won’t be certain communication with a DF’d member, of course not, there will be some reasonable kind of communication that doesn’t affect an active member from causing their congregation to suffer as a unit.

 

Therefore, the optics of the word SHUN is wrongfully applied by opposers. A father and son construction team won’t find themselves at odds when it comes to, work. What they will find at odds is if the son is DF’d, and he wishes his father, listen to him trying to undermine the fathers Christianity. At that point, the father would do right to distance himself from the son.

 

This scenario can be applied to many conditions. 2 Corinthians 6:14 Does that mean some brothers STOP communicating with certain family members? YES! Depending on what kind of culture we were brought up with, a father and mother might never talk to a daughter or a son that has become gay or lesbian. That’s a PERSONAL CHOICE they have made. Because their culture might be strong enough to reject such a change. Therefore, how can a child that has made such a change, not influence the daily Christian life of a faithful member, if the parents see God’s law broken by their children’s action? 1 Corinthians 6:18

 

How about alcoholism, drug addiction, kleptomania. How many here have invited such a person to their home. Especially a home where there are children and have no worries that these people won’t be a bad influence or steal something to continue with their addiction. Even if it’s a family member.

 

How about hanging around with people that are guilty of adultery, fornication. Having extramarital affairs. What good will come of it, if someone decides, that’s an exciting lifestyle? Who wins then?

 

Therefore, understand what the parameters are with the word SHUN, that will benefit you, and allow you to see things more clearly, instead of talking points with personal stories that have no relation to the word honesty.

 

Agree if prostitution, spousal abuse, child abuse, thief, murderer, reviler etc. seems reasonable, enough not to have people removed to keep a congregation clean. Of all the listed possibilities, which one can be acceptable because human nature dictates it? 1 Corinthians 5:11

 

This is what the world offers, and it’s simple to succumb to its influence. It goes beyond what the word SHUN is to people that think there is a middle ground because human emotion demands it. 1 John 2:15-17

 

Contrary to popular belief, no priest can absolve you from sin on Sunday so people can have a fresh start on Monday. Therefore, where does the real love for thy brother lay, if thy brother refuses to repent? 2 Peter 2:20-22 what will be gained by a mistaken sympathy of your fellow man that has known God and rejected him?

 

Therefore, no one can say, it isn’t out of the ordinary that some cultures SHUN people or family members out of their own volition without there being any scriptural application attached.

 

No misinformation or mischaracterization will EVER change that!

 

Therefore, certain courts are hypocrites for trying to impose on something ordinary people do anyway without biblical bias!

 

Spoken like an elder or puppet of the GB.

This is my personal case : I left the Org after doing three months research into the Child Abuse accusations Earthwide in the JW Org. In my opinion the GB were responsible for most of it and the elders just acted as puppets for the GB. I could no longer see the GB as the 'faithful and discreet slave class' because of their actions and instruction to others. "By their works you will know them"... 

I did not spread any message in the congregation, so I did not cause division. I emailed as many elders as I could and told them I was 'resigning' from the JW Organisation. This does not mean I was or am turning against God or Jesus Christ. I just left the JW Org. ... 

The elders didn't ask me for a reason, they just called me in to 'do the paperwork'.  I had to sign a copy of the email that I'd sent which one of them had printed. 

Prior to me 'resigning' I had told a few 'brothers' that i intended to resign, not giving them a full explanation... This was so that those people that mattered to me would know I had not been disfellowshipped for sinning against God... 

Now we all know that the GB has told all elders how to announce it only one way from the platform. So and so 'is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. This is a deliberate ploy so that everyone will SHUN that person. No one would know if the person left of their own choice or was disfellowshipped for 'wrong conduct'. So of course no one would then speak to such a person. Total shunning.

Even those that knew I was 'resigning' do not speak to me. I repeat total SHUNNING. 

Why ? Not because of anything I've done, but out of fear of the elders and the thought of themselves being disfellowshipped. 

I am strong enough to cope and have a good wife. I can cope. Many cannot cope, they suffer badly.

But of course to the American mind, of which most of the GB are, it is just collateral damage... The same as is the Child Abuse victims. 

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Sometimes, to do the "right thing" ... you have to suffer GREAT personal injury, loss of livelihood, your home, your family, or even have to die.

Sometimes you have to do that thing which is abhorrent and against all natural ingrained inclinations ... AND THINK!

Dying is easy to do for your faith, losing your money and real estate is harder to do, as there is no glory in it.

Dying for your faith is an instant "free pass". OTHER people will clean up the mess.

Losing your money, your comfortable job,  and your real estate is embarrassing ... and HARD.

That is why we have the current policy of chopping off the babies head when it cries.

It does not require any real thinking, and we STILL sleep warm at night in a soft bed.

Because we know that ... no matter WHAT we do .... the free money keeps rolling in.

The problem with JW Org is the thing taught is Not To Think. Just Obey.  Don't ya know that the GB are the 'faithful slave' they get all the communications direct from God. They gotta b right en it.  That's how it taught. 

Don't think about what you can celebrate and what you can't because we will TELL you what to celebrate and what not to.

Don't think about how to do the ministry because we will TELL you how to do your ministry. 

Don't think about who you can talk to or mix with because we will TELL you who you can talk to and mix with.

Don't think about what clothes to wear because we will TELL you what clothes to wear.

Well I think you might just get the idea from those examples.

The thing that the GB hates is if congregants start to think for themselves. Because that's when the GB starts to lose their hold over people. They lose a little bit of power and control every time someone thinks for themselves. 

That's why people get disfellowshipped for asking too many questions. Oh dear that's 'causing a division in the congregation'. Disfellowship them. Off with their heads.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks for respond. But i am not sure do you support idea that family members are stopped to be bond/connected with family bonds/ties, blood if they go to live somewhere else??

This idea promoted by WT not sound reasonable, not have common sense, and in fact generated what you very well described as;  

"it would become a dysfunctional family unit"

Yes it is a mess caused by the GB inventing things 'beyond the things written'.  When i was still a brother it was announced from the platform that one of our daughters was 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. This daughter was actually acting as a foster parent to a child which was born to one of our other daughters, so it was a deeply involved situation. I made it known to everyone that i would not shun my daughter who was no longer a Witness because she needed our help in many ways. The GB should not make these blanket rules which only put burden on people shoulders. 

1 minute ago, Anna said:

I simply think that it would be unreasonable to expect a family that lives together, as a family unit, to ignore one another. A family unit has a basic structure and this structure should be unaffected, otherwise it would become a dysfunctional family unit, and nobody want's that. When the children leave, then they set up their own family unit. They are no longer a unit with their mom and dad and siblings, and can do whatever they want in their own family. So really there is only one variable.

Anna, there are so many different families living in so many different ways that the GB has no right to give blanket orders as to what a person should or should not do. Where grandchildren are involved, old parents involved, so many different things.  

I still say that Jesus said we should 'Love our enemies and pray for them'. So why would Jesus want us to ignore or shun our families ? 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

We should shun what is bad and hold on to what is good. I personally have the right to "mark" anyone I wish in the congregation to personally shun them, if I feel that I have tried to make amends with them, yet my association with them is not good for our spiritual goals. I even knew two members of the Governing Body, Brother Ted Jaracz and Brother Lloyd Barry, who had shunned each other since about 1949. They had both served at the Australian Branch where Jaracz had been sent in 1946 to be the new Branch Overseer, only to be rather quickly called back to the United States to serve as a Circuit Overseer for about 20 years starting in Missouri (where my own family had moved in '64 to 'serve where the need was greater' and an uncle of mine also served as a circuit overseer near his circuit). Brother Barry, in 1949 was sent to become the new Branch Overseer in Japan, which he did for the next 25 years, or so. They would barely speak together or be seen together even after both came to Brooklyn to serve on the Governing Body starting in 1975. Some could pick up on the "animosity" that still showed at Annual Meetings and a couple of Gilead Graduations well into the 1980's. (The 1990's too, I'm told, but I was never in a place to see it then.)

This seemed to me to be an even more definitive form of shunning than the purpose of "marking" found in 2 Thess:

• (2 Thessalonians 3:13-15) 13 For YOUR part, brothers, do not give up in doing right. 14 But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. 15 And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

Now, you might say, but these were grown men, not members of the same family, yet Jesus said, even of family members:

• (Matthew 10:34-36) . . .Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.

There are good procedures to handle issues of cleanliness and morality that come up in the congregation, and they include a process found in Matthew 18 to discuss issues with a brother who may have sinned against you personally.

• (Matthew 18:15-20) 15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector. 18 “Truly I say to you, whatever things you may bind on earth will be things already bound in heaven, and whatever things you may loosen on earth will be things already loosened in heaven. 19 Again I tell you truly, if two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them on account of my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

So, we personally have a right, and in some cases an obligation to shun others if it is a part of keeping the congregation clean. But this does not mean that we shun to the extent that we are creating emotional blackmail. It means that we don't go out of our way to associate when that type of association could be interpreted as sharing with the brother (or sister) in their wicked works. We would never go out of our way to prove ourselves inhospitable. "Let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector" just means that we have gone a little farther than marking them so as to admonish them as a brother. We are trying to not give the appearance that their conduct reflects on the type of conduct that the majority of the congregation condone.

If we go too far, and forget our "natural affection" we have been overreached by Satan:

• (2 Corinthians 2:5-11) 5 Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. 6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad. 8 Therefore I exhort YOU to confirm YOUR love for him. 9 For to this end also I write to ascertain the proof of YOU, whether YOU are obedient in all things. 10 Anything YOU kindly forgive anyone, I do too. In fact, as for me, whatever I have kindly forgiven, if I have kindly forgiven anything, it has been for YOUR sakes in Christ’s sight; 11 that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Assuming the person is no longer practicing a sin that brings reproach if the congregation were to condone it, then the rebuke by the majority was enough. If the person does not wish to come back to the congregation, that is their business. We are not in the business of keeping track of the injury and shunning just because they willingly went out from us. They are as a person of the nations, and we feel no animosity toward persons of the nations.

• (1 Corinthians 5:9-11) 9 In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.

If the person no longer wishes to be a brother, we have no reason to keep shunning that person. They are just like any other person of the world, which we treat respectfully and civilly and with no hard feelings about their past. We simply don't wish to accidentally give the impression that someone who presents himself as a brother is representing the Christian congregation.

Just how formal these processes need to be, might vary from congregation to congregation. Just how quickly a person is forgiven after a rebuke might vary too. The congregation is in a good place to know how a person's reputation and actions reflect on the reputation of the congregation itself.

So, yes, I can think of reasons I might shun even a member of my own family. If he were a child abuser, for example, who drags down the reputation of the congregation I would shun my own family member. I would still deal with him as needed, and never ignore a cry for help or a phone call. I would check up on his well-being and might even make sure he continues to get the material help he needs, even spiritual admonishment. But this is after at least a short period of making my displeasure clear through [probably a short] period of shunning, and thereby making sure that our own conduct doesn't appear to condone the conduct and thereby reflect badly on Jehovah's name and the Christian congregation. That might be an extreme example to make the point, but if it's true of one form of conduct, then it is also true to some extent for other forms of conduct. The rebuke and punishment should fit the crime.

You have changed what you first said, to what you personally think you should do. Firstly you said a child should be shunned. Now you are saying that you have the right to shun. Two totally different things. Of course you have the right to do as you wish, but do you have the right to make rules for others ? I ask you has Jehovah given you that right ? 

I think you might just be an elder the way you misuse scripture.

The Matthew 10 scripture surely is aimed at a family in which some accept the JW version of the 'truth' and some bitterly oppose it.  

Something strange in my ex congregation. A woman is a sister and has been for many years. Her husband is not interested in the 'truth' from the JW Org. However the husband goes to all the friendly gatherings of his wife's group and is well accepted. Isn't he as bad as a disfellowshipped person ?  Surely he is bad association if he does not want to know about God and God's purpose ? But because he has never been a JW he is allowed and accepted to be part of the gatherings. 

I find it amusing your comment about if a family member was a Child Abuser. And this is where i think you are an elder. Your concern is only about that he might drag down the reputation of the congregation.. You say you would shun him, but you do not say you would report him to the police or outside authorities.... This below was someone else's comment on the previous page. Think about it.   

We must not overlook the sobering fact that, at the present time, the words of Romans 13:3-4 still hold true regarding the secular authorities:

"For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad."

How true this is, so why oh why did the GB withhold so much information from those secular authorities ?  Maybe everyone should shun the Governing Body ? 

3 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

hahaha, i am proof for this. I left JWorg and wife is in silence about almost all in cong. Just this morning she and one other sister (have no clue who she is, name, nothing) went to Zadar (town on Adriatic coast), for preaching in distance field service, some 290 km from Zagreb.  

So i have one week of freedom :)))))))))))) and cooking for myself, cleaning, watering plants, doing home works, painting, gardening and many other things .......  ahahahaahaa family ties continue :))))))) 

The GB and the elders have no right in doing this to you. They are putting a strain on your marriage.  Maybe you can ask her what scriptures the elders use when they tell her not to talk to you about such things. 

My wife is not baptised so she does not feel the pressure so much but still the elders try to cause a division in my household. 

Maybe you should have a lazy week and when your wife returns just say that as she was not home to work why should you do all of it :) 

On 8/11/2018 at 12:17 AM, JW Insider said:

It's not a new point. A disfellowshipped, grown child, not living at home should be shunned by the family except for absolutely necessary business that may need to be conducted with the child. This "child" is at least 18. The economy since 2008 has wreaked havoc with this rule, because so many more children in the 18-30 category are no longer able to get out on their own, and more disfellowshipped "children" in that age group claim it's economically necessary to remain at home.

Are you saying that a disfellowshipped child SHOULD be shunned ? If so, what gives you the right to make that decision ? Has God through Jesus Christ given you authority ?  Show me three scriptures that you base your decision on. Not one but three. Jesus said to love our enemies and to even pray for them. Would Jesus tell us to disown our families ? I think not. 

On 8/11/2018 at 12:04 AM, Jack Ryan said:

Strange how he doesn't quote a bible verse, he just states that the Bible "clearly says" you should shun your family members, your own children.

If the Bible clearly says you should do that, why can't you quote any scriptures? Because there are none. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything like that.

So many times the GB make it up as they go along. In my opinion it shows they are not the 'Faithful and discreet slave class'. They are more like the wicked slave class that says 'the master is delaying' and then they start to mistreat the congregation. 

On 8/10/2018 at 11:57 PM, Jack Ryan said:

This comes from the final talk at the Birmingham, AL Convention. Herd talks kind of low and there is some background noise, so here is a transcript starting at about 1:25.

You have a disfellowshipped grown child. Either a male or female, daughter or son. Disfellowshipped, grown child, not living at home. They have their own place to live. How do you treat them? Do you treat them as disfellowshipped? That’s what the bible says you should do. Now of course thereÂ’s things you can do. Now I donÂ’t have to tell you what you can do, you know what you can do. But think about what you should do. ThatÂ’s the thing you want to be careful of. Well do we have any background on that? Yes. Once the demons were thrown out of JehovahÂ’s house, they were not permitted back in. That tell you something? Nope canÂ’t come back. CanÂ’t spoil the rest. “Not gonna let you do it,” Jehovah says. Out you go, out you stay.

I thought this was interesting because it doesn't appear to be in the talk outline. Admittedly, I just skimmed through the outline quickly, so it might be in there. Either way, there is something twisted about comparing the shunning of children to casting out demons from heaven.

Edit: For those wondering, this talk is from August 5. The part before when the transcript starts is Herd talking about King Asa removing his grandmother from her position.

Here we have a fine example of the GB acting like the Pharisees by lumping heavy loads on peoples backs. So many people criticize me when i say this, but this is a good example of the GB making it up as they go along. So, do you really think the GB are the 'faithful and discreet slave' ? Would Jesus have told people to treat their families in this way when he told people to love their enemies ? 

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is an excellent point. I often wonder about the same. I even wonder, for example, what goes through a Catholic priest's mind when he has an affair with a parishioner or what goes through the mind of the parishioner when (she or he) has an affair with a priest. So you can imagine my wonderment at the state of affairs in the congregation.

It's a bit of comfort to know that our faith itself and our dependence on Bible training will sharpen our conscience and sense of morality. Undoubtedly these factors help bring the majority of such issues to light.

• (Hebrews 4:12, 13) 12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account.
• (1 Timothy 5:24, 25) 24 The sins of some men are publicly manifest, leading directly to judgment, but as for other men [their sins] also become manifest later. 25 In the same way also the fine works are publicly manifest and those that are otherwise cannot be kept hid.
• (Ephesians 5:10-13) 10 Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and quit sharing with [them] in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving [them], 12 for the things that take place in secret by them it is shameful even to relate. 13 Now all the things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light, for everything that is being made manifest is light.

But why not all things in this life? Why 10 years? The following verse in 1 Cor 4:5 says that some "secret things of darkness" won't become revealed until "the Lord comes."

• (1 Corinthians 4:5) 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.
• (1 Corinthians 3:13) 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is.
• (Hebrews 4:12, 13) [especially v. 13 already quoted above.]

I have struggled with whether Ephesians 5:11 quoted above is saying that we each have a personal responsibility to reveal. I think it creates a divisive spirit in the congregations when everyone is ready to turn others in, yet it seems that sometimes it is up to us to "be reproving them" because the "things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light."

When the ARC was active, I discussed the potential fallout with a friend of mine still at Bethel and he told me that one of the dangers or fears was going to be whether or not the name or position of one of the perpetrators was going to be revealed. In one of the very cases used as an example this brother in New York said that the perpetrator was a well-known brother who had also been the Australian Branch Overseer for decades. The brother seemed to have no doubt of his guilt, although I personally would not know, but I still think that using this particular case in the process was purposefully intended to put a kind of fear and humility into the WTS there, because it showed who had the upper hand and who held the "moral high ground." But hearing this, and knowing how the brother who told me was deeply concerned that the truth not come out, I wondered the same thing. I thought maybe it should come out. (Per Ephesians 5:10-13)

(Eph 5 v11)  So the scriptures tell us to 'make things known', but for anyone that does they get disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation'. And the GB has made its own 'rules' telling congregants not to report Child Abuse to the police or outside authorities. But if a member of a congregation reports child abuse to an elder nothing gets done about it, especially if the pedophile is and elder.... This has been proven in court rooms many times now..  Well as the scripture at Luke 8 v 17 says " For there is nothing hidden that will not become manifest, nor anything carefully concealed that will never become known and not come out in the open".  Its good to see so much being revealed. Maybe the GB will answer for their crimes. 

9 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It is my job to help you THINK.

It is NOT my job to supply you with answers.

What is known as a 'wind up merchant' then. 

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Indeed because as I told you before, as well as here and now that I do deal with people who have these addictions, as well as those who have other issues, perhaps far greater compared to most, to which I even made mention to you a number of times, so it is not a surprise for me to speak and or react as such, granted I myself being someone, as do many in who are in the same position, to speak on and give information on the matter to better and or help someone.

The very reason why I asked you earlier: what are you contributing to helping prevent masturbation and pornography addiction, how would you deal with a young one who nearly did something very, very grave because of the addiction?

What help can you provide what it seems others cannot? How is  it you consider helping others in this domain a smoke screen when everyone is doing the same thing in order to combat the problem? I again 2 2 of the communities branch sites out of a dozen, nothing here is a smoke screen. What JWs have brought up in their help video is no different from what is being found and read here, the very reason I told someone earlier look up pillows here and see what results you will get, you will found out here that people do have problems:

• https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFapChristians/

Another, of which I mentioned to Srecko Sostar in another post: http://www.rebootnation.org/forum/index.php

perhaps a fourth: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/

The list goes on because there is a HUGE community, regardless of race, religion, sex, culture, etc, are fighting this same big problem to the point differences are put aside. For at times even someone you dislike will come to common ground with you to deal with something that is a problem, and we hit the root of it too and help out those that are in suffering because of it.

And if you continue to read further on, you will see responses in regards to masturbation and pornography, and what has been said.

Those that help such ones in this domain do not get paid to help people deal with such an addiction, we do so because we want them to not dwell in sexual immortality and or excessive masturbation, the very reason why our time and resources is used in order to accomplish this. To think people get paid for this, to aid others, is a bit silly. As far as I am concern, those links I provided, we do not see anyone getting paid to help a person who is afflicted with sexual immortality.

We help people deal with this addiction because we do not want them to be shackled by masturbation and pornography, mainly for those who have been dealing with the problem to the point it is borderline out of control whereas far more worse things, greater sin can be committed, as is provided an in real life example already if you seen my other response, even further back, more examples.

All persons, religious and non-religious will speak of this matter because as a whole, they see this an a big issue in a world that is accepting sexual immorality as if it is normal, I am sure you also see this with your eyes in what you are professing about a common problem taking place in religious and education institutions, its everywhere, not secluded to a single person and or group.

Surely if they taught sodomy to children (which they are doing recently, i.e. Teen Vogue Magazines), you would react, some of us will react to the point we will speak against the teaching of sodomy to children, this also goes for things far worse that is being pushed on to young ones and teens, the same can be said of the many of us who fight against those who take up what young people tend to like and twist it into something immoral and unclean, the very reason I made mention to several things in this regard to add on to what Anna was saying, for this is a reality when it comes to the selling of sexual immortality on the internet and catering to those they target and those who stumble upon it.

Helping someone to kick the habit isn't messing with people's heads. What is messing with people's heads is telling young people, teenagers and young adults that masturbation and pornography is okay, when in reality it is not. Telling those subjected to the sex addiction found within otaku culture is normal is wrong, for in reality, it is a problem.

I do not see any wrong in helping someone kick the habit, granted of how many people who have been helped to do so seen improvement in their lives and I have heard testimony from many, many, many people, and it isn't me alone - the very reason I even posted previously of someone who's addiction nearly led him to commit sexual relations with a woman, only to dodge a bullet by his own revelation to make the change, thus becoming a mentor in the process to fight sexual immortality with those who follow him, all of which are in connection to the community as a whole that is against sexual immorality. That my friend, isn't messing with people's head and such ones are not shrinks.

You said before you read the Bible, the Bible tells you, clearly, on what sexual immorality is and what pertains to it. Such as sexual relations that is unlawful, adultery, sexual relations among people who are unmarried/not wed-locked, prostitution, bestiality, homosexuality, Sodomy, and other brazen conduct that some have upgraded overtime that is far to explicit to say and will make you perhaps shield your eyes and barricade your conscience, for such things are that spiritually unclean, as well as greatly unclean in the realm of morality. The Bible does speak on such matters, and as for God Himself, take to His Word, for instance, Deuteronomy 22:13-25 - Laws Concerning Sexual Immorality, Leviticus 18 - Unlawful Sexual Relations, Leviticus 20:10-16 - Punishments for Sexual Immorality, etc. We also have passages in the Greek New Testament, and clearly Apostle Paul was not shy of speaking on the matter himself, for instance, Acts 15:29, Galatians 5:19, Or perhaps in the four gospel accounts, examples like Matthew 5:32, or Matthew 19:9,or maybe Revelations 14:8, 17:2, and 18:3. That wasn't even using cross-references for these verse either.

The viewing of pornography and masturbation gives a negative attitude and such a thing is a corruption the mind. It causes people to think very very differently mainly when it comes to the though for sexual relations to the point they see an individual as nothing more than a sex object, they do not even see you as a human should the addiction continues to grow.

Sex itself becomes separated from love between a married man and woman, for due to the problem of which is being spoken of, such is reduced to pleasure and relieving sexual tension, and in feeds into the neurotransmitter of the body known as dopamine - you feed the mind sin, an the mind will continue to ask you for more sin, therefore, throwing verses like Colossians 3:5 out the window at this point.

That being said, it is not unexpected for someone to tell others of what is in the right and what is in the wrong, mainly give it is given as a warning and or advice.

Telling people to abstain from Sexual Immortality, no matter how cringe, boring and and or repetitive the message is, is not being like that of a Pharisee. Moreover, you are misusing the context of that verse of which you speak, for no one is adding an extra burden, mainly when it comes to helping those with an addictive habit that is equal to smoking/drug addiction and or those who are struggling to not fall.

Take listen to this verse because if you do not do nothing, mainly when your brother and or sister is committing these acts [masturbation and viewing pornography] and clearly has a problem, of which you are probably knowing of, you yourself can commit sin if you know what he or she is doing is right and to not aid the person.

• James 4: 17 - So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

That is why I asked you the question early, should it be found among your household and or circle of friends and or relatives, regardless of their background and or faith, what would you have done if such one is either suffering of this addiction or, knowing they are doing this and practicing such willfully. I advise you read up more in anything and everything in relation to sexual immorality in Scripture, as well as take a good look at people who are dealing with this problem, an wanting to break free of the chains this problem puts on them.

In my case, for 9 years now, I haven't turned a blind eye to those, young and old who are dealing with this problem, for leaving them hanging like that is pretty much being in failure, that is how some would say, leaving a solider behind in the field of combat when you yourself knows that solider is alive still. Culture-wise, in my case of which I am molded by, no one is left behind, and I put this into application when it comes to people who suffer from masturbation and pornography addiction, remembering Jesus' lessons, which a bit of it can be picked up from John 13:2-14, I put them first, wanting to see that they conquer the addiction.

Help your brother, help your sister, put them first before you, above you even when it comes to helping them out. 

For God knows who is with him and who is against him. He knows of whom he approves, and whom he does not approve, and we know who will be judged, and who will not be judged.

Some on here say i go completely off topic. But this post is not about masturbation and pornography on the bigger scale of things, its about the Video the GB of JW Org may have made. So it seems you have gone off topic, and it could be said that you are using the topic to tell how much work you do concerning the subject. However, the topic is not about how seriously you take it, it is about the JW Video.  

So when you ask me what am i doing about it all, I give no reply, as it would be off topic. But in reality i don't go asking people if they masturbate and why. It is none of my business what others do in that respect.