JOHN BUTLER

@TrueTomHarley What is yout ideas on Romans 13, v1 through 7

Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. ²  Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.  For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; ⁴  for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.⁵  There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.⁶  That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. ⁷  Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax;  to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear; to the one who calls for honor, such honor.

Now surely this is talking about Earthly Governments, courts and all, and being in subjection to them, and being obedient to them when it is not disobeying God. 

Also, Matthew 5 v 41. 'and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles.'

Put simply, Jesus was telling his listeners that if an authority compelled them into some kind of legitimate service, they should perform it willingly and without resentment. They were thus to pay “Caesar’s things to Caesar” but not overlook the obligation to pay “God’s things to God.”—Mark 12:17. *

So now, I think the Governing Body should obey the law of the land, governments, court orders, and all, as long as it does not go against God's will.

And I think you will find i have backed that up with scriptures from your own Bible. N W T of the H S.

You may say that human governments and courts do a bad job, but then it's not for you or I to judge them, as it seems they stand in place because God Himself wants them there at  this time. 

It's snowing here in deepest Devon England. All of God's creation as far as the eye can see, is covered in white. There is peace on the land, probably because no one can travel far, but it's tranquil. Therefore i will sit here and pray to God, rather than spend time replying to comments on here. We all have our own opinion and it seems none of us will be swayed, so no point discussing it further. 

Have a good day whoever you are, where ever you are. Have piece of mind, be kind to others and show love to those who will receive it. 

Oh for judgement day, that God's will will be done, here on Earth as in Heaven. 

@TrueTomHarley You seem to repeat the same old rubbish. You tell lies and twist things so i can see why you so love the Governing Body. You have so much in common. I don't even think you are a brother in the JW Org. I think you are just a trouble maker. 

All your lies and rubbish do not fool me however. I can see through you. 

The Governing Body does not care about it's members of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. They do not care about the amount of Child Abuse within. They did not want to prevent it in the past and do not want to prevent it now. All they want to do is look after themselves. Serve them if you want you hypocrite. Worship them if it makes you feel good. Give your love and devotion to them and not to God Himself, and then wait on judgement day to find the result. Jesus Christ will know your heart, your desires, and your motives. you may fool some people but you won't fool God or His son. 

you've come back to this stupid stupid idea that JW Org is ok because it does not have AS MUCH Child Abuse as other organisations. and like i said before, would the Nation of Israel have said to God "We did not kill as many of our children as the other nations did ". You hypocrite. you have no idea what Child Abuse is like. Go worship your Governing Body. 8 men, yes MEN, when the scriptures tell you "Put not your trust in earthling man". You forsake God, Jesus Christ and the Bible, and replace it all with 8 MEN. 

Your stupid reference to the pilot of an aeroplane has no similarity at all. A pilot does not tell you how to live your life. A pilot does not try to take the authority away from God and mistreat millions of people, like a wicked slave class. 

As for your book, I think you are looking for recognition through the lies that you tell, and to make money of course. Every writer hopes to make some money from their books... And there will probably be some people with little brain power that will buy and read your rubbish... Enjoy whilst you can, Armageddon is getting closer each day. 

As for apostasy, it means nothing.   Jesus was an apostate of the Jewish religion according to the Jewish religious leaders. The early Christians were also apostates to that same religion, hence Saul (who became Paul) was trying to get rid of them all..... Apostasy just means leaving a religion that you once followed... However it does not mean leaving God or Jesus Christ. 

As for encouraging pedophiles, well your Governing Body must be hiding them for sure. To pay out so much money so as not to release those documents, says quite a bit. Big payoffs to those two victims in America. For nothing, just to give away money, I don't think so ! Go back to sleep and dream on 

@James Thomas Rook Jr. If you don't care about Child Abuse, why don't you just say so ? 

17 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 1909: ἐπί

d. figuratively used of things, affairs, persons, which one is set over, over which he exercises power; Latinsupra, our over (cf. below, B. 2 b. and C. I. 2 e.): ἐπί πάντων, Romans 9:5; Ephesians 4:6 (where ἐπί, διά and ἐν are distinguished); καθίστημι τινα ἐπί τίνος, Matthew 24:45; Matthew 25:21, 23; Luke 12:42; Acts 6:3 (Genesis 39:4, 5; 1 Macc. 6:14 1 Macc. 10:37, etc.; Plato, rep. 5, p. 460 b., etc.); δίδωμι τίνιἐξουσίαν ἐπί τίνος, Revelation 2:26; ἔχω ἐξουσίαν ἐπί τίνος, Revelation 20:6; βασιλεύειν ἐπί τίνος, Matthew 2:22 R G Trbrackets; 

Revelation 5:10; ἔχειν ἐφ' ἑαυτοῦ βασιλέα, 

Revelation 9:11; ἔχειν βασιλείαν ἐπί τῶν βασιλέων, Revelation 17:18; ὅςἦν ἐπ' τῆς γάζης, who was over the treasury, Acts 8:27; ὁ ἐπί τοῦ κοιτῶνος, he who presided over the bedchamber, the chamberlain, Acts 12:20 (Passow, i., 2, p. 1035a gives many examples from Greek authors (cf. Liddell and Scott, under the word A. III. 1; Lob. ad Phryn., p. 474; Sophocles Lexicon, under the word); for examples from the O. T. Apocrypha see Wahl, Clavis Apocr., p. 218a).

“And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”  Rev 5:10

¹⁰  and you made them to be a kingdomp and priests to our God,qand they are to rule as kingsr over the earth.”

Bit of a difference isn't it ? 

@TrueTomHarley "You are hanging out with single-issue people, and single-issue people of any stripe will distort your world view. Single-issue people usually become those who 'cannot see the forest for the trees.' "...... Look in the mirror my friend. It seems to be you that have the single issue here. It seems to be your thought that the Governing Body are right no matter what they do. Do you worship them that much ?  

My thought, the GB should probably be removed and replaced........ I have a thought that some of them have been removed in the past but I've not gone deeply into that. There are other things in my life to do. 

And once again you generalise, this time concerning the courts. If the courts have to deal with millions of cases of abuse, not just the ones from JW Org, then that is a generalisation. The courts must have case queing up out the doors and round the block... 

However it does not make it right for the Governing Body to think they are so supreme as to misuse their power and get away with it.

One more point, as it's just come back to my mind, this idea you have that I'm a 'follower' of something or other. I think your mind or your emotions  is / are using this false idea as an excuse to accuse me.. It seems to be the only thing you can latch onto. I've told you many times, so it seems pointless telling you again, but I'll try to reason with you. I AM NOT A PART OF ANY ANTI - JW OR ANTI WATCHTOWER MOVEMENT. I only want the Organisation cleaned up. And if the GB are so high and mighty and think ( just as a wicked slave would think) the master is delaying in coming, and then mistreat the 'domestics'... This is made so clear in God's word yet you seem to ignore it. 

"One lesson to be learned is to value the conscience and godly devotion of the GB that has maintained an organization that is 90% less likely to originate cases of abuse that the courts may screw up... " Um, two point here. 1. The GB doesn't have the quantity of cases to worry about. 2. The only known cases within the JW Org are the ones already 'out there'. It's a bit like saying there is no water, but you haven't yet searched for any well. JW cases will only be known once they are made known to the public. Otherwise how will we know about them. Whereas these court cases you keep going on about are already 'out there' and everybody knows about them. The term 'tip of the iceberg' seems to fit in nicely here. Remember that in most of the countries I've mentioned, investigations are either just beginning or are ongoing, so it's too soon to judge how many cases have been hidden or not dealt with properly.

I laughed, sorry, when i read, 'I'm writing a book'. That always hits a sour note with me, but maybe I'm misjudging you. So why are you 'writing a book'... Most people write books to make themselves money or to gain fame. 

I actually discredit your comments when you tell me I'm 'rolling with the pigs' and you say they are my heroes, because that means you misjudge me. And as we seem to agree, we are not fit to judge each other. 

God will use whomever He chooses to use, to do whatever job He wants them to do. If God chooses to use people of the world to clean up His chosen Organisation, because that Org will not clean itself up, then so be it. Who are we to question it ?    

@AllenSmith Um, the UK branch handed over their documents. The Australian branch handed over documents. So did they do wrong in God's eyes ? 

You seem to act as if your Governing Body is God himself. Beyond questioning. Well not in my view. 

And it's not about legal matters because 'legal matters' in that sense are part of the world. It's about doing what is right in God's eyes. 

If it was possible for the GB to help the legal system convict pedophiles, and in that way help to make the JW Org cleaner than it is, then in my opinion the GB should have done as much as possible to help the legal system. 

As I've said before, if the GB and the JW org were being persecuted for following God's instructions then they should hold their heads high and smile, but if they are being condemned for assisting Child Abuse then how can they hold their heads high at all. Just by saying they are the 'faithful slave' they think that gives them the right to bend the rules of God. So who is putting who to the test here ? The GB are putting God to the test for sure. Well if you want to support that its your choice.

God didn't use the Romans to punish Jesus, it was the Nation of Israel that condemned Jesus to death.  God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem, whereas he could have used fire from heaven, as in Sodom & Gomorrah. 

'because you who pass judgment do the same things' But i don't do them nor do i support those that do do them. Hence I'm not guilty of those things and have proved it by leaving the Org as soon as I had proof enough for my conscience to act. You see, i took action that you do not like. It seems that you are so annoyed that I would dare to question your GB. Why do you worship them so ? They are only men. Put not your trust in earthling man...

As for legal matters, they can so easily be misused. An honest man that serves God well will know right from wrong. Your GB it seems has no conscience or Godly devotion. They are only interested in winning cases, not seeing justice from God's viewpoint. They do not care for those that have suffered, hence those that have suffered HAVE to take legal action and involve the 'world'. For those that have suffered and those still suffering the GB and the Elders show no love or empathy. 

Go your own way, do your own thing, it means nothing to me. Carry on serving your Governing Body. Carry on believing that the GB are the 'faithful slave'. God has given Jesus Christ the authority to judge us all, and he will do it fairly.

@AllenSmith True God does not 'NEED' anyone's help but He has used it in the past. 

Babylon, Egypt and Rome. All used to do the work of God. 

As for guilt, i think the Governing Body have proved how guilty they are in many ways. Are they still withholding all those documents from the Californian high court ? Or maybe they have squirmed their way out of it. Did they ever pay the $2.5 million dollars fine ? Using donations from congregation members. But they did make massive payouts to the two victims it seems. 

I'll add this again and see if you get the point :-

Nation of Israel : 2 Kings Ch 17 v 17.   But Jehovah we didn't burn as many of our children as the other nations did. 

It's not about comparisons of how much Child Abuse was committed within the Org. It's the fact that it was hidden for so long, and victims suffered just to keep the Org looking clean. Like whitewashed graves, full of dead men's bones. 

I like verses 8 & 9 of that Acts scripture. 

⁸  "And God, who knows the heart,e bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. ⁹  And he made no distinction at all between us and them, ...... "

Unlike the Governing Body that say only those 8 men are the 'faithful and discreet slave'. Whilst all the other Anointed are nothing in their eyes. 

@TrueTomHarley Well first i need to be sure that the JW Org are 'God's people'. Then I hope to be back in the Org if God shows me mercy.

However the Big difference between the two types of persecution are,  being persecuted for serving God properly, or persecution for doing wicked deeds. I think that will be easy enough to see.

I had a thought and laughed but shouldn't have. 

Nation of Israel : 2 Kings Ch 17 v 17.   But Jehovah we didn't burn as many of our children as the other nations did. 

Hope you get the point.  

Talk later. John 

 

@TrueTomHarley Once again you make me laugh.  "Are you getting fine reinforcement to do that at avoidjw.com, or wherever you visit online?"  It seems so funny to me that you should think i need strength from any 'website'. Look, I know Armageddon is coming. I know we will all be judged individually....

I have taken my stand, repeat, my stand regarding the Child Abuse problem, and the future problems it may cause. I want brothers and sisters to be safe out there, and i think they should be warned about the situation, not have the situation hidden from them. 

You seem not to read what i write anyway, as i've given my position at this time in the above comment. But I'll copy and paste it here anyway..

Daily i pray to God for direction and guidance. Ah, it would be so easy if He sent down an angel with a message wouldn't it.  If He were to tell me, do this or do that. But I get nothing. My feeling is though, that if God disapproved of me a lot, that he would have me forget all about Him and go out into the 'world'. I suppose I'm in what i would call 'limbo' (though i don't know the real meaning of the word) but what I'm saying is, I'm neither serving God properly in any way and I'm not in the world. I trust no human at all for spiritual guidance.  I do not believe that the Governing Body of JW Org is the 'faithful and discreet slave', and that knocks a big hole in it all. So many things that i was taught as 'facts' way back in the 1970's have now been dismissed as mistakes. That is not 'the light getting brighter' because in my opinion God  and / or Jesus Christ would not have allowed those mistakes to have been used as teachings.  

Hope that helps to show you where I am right now. 

@TrueTomHarley firstly it's great to see you have asense of humour. 

Quote :-

"You acknowledge that the organization with the best record, though not perfect, is improving. So NOW is the time you decide that it is too foul a place in which to sully your  feet? There is more to you than meets the eye.

When God finds out about the few denarious' debt you will not forgive your fellow slave, what will he say about the 10,000 fold amount that you owe him?"

I'm not interested in who has the best track record. As I've said before the Nation of Israel would have had the best record compared to the other nations, but it didn't make them right in God's eyes did it ? To the point that God used 'the world' to punish His chosen people back then. God used Babylon, Egypt and finally the Roman army. God could have sent down fire from heaven to wipe out Jerusalem but no, He used or allowed the Romans to do the job. And so it may just be that God is using or allowing people of 'the world' to punish or straighten out his chosen people of this day. Back in the day the Nation of Israel was one nation basically in one place. Nowadays the JW Org is Earthwide so the punishment or sorting job has to be Earthwide too. Hence so many nations calling for reform within the JW Org. 

As for my timing, simple. I could not act on something i did not know about. I did months of research, yes online most of it, but it wasn't just a one day decision. If you won't accept my reasons that's your choice. I would suggest then, that you are judging me on your own personality or previous experiences. 

As for forgiving debts of others. It's not my place to judge anyone is it ? These sins of covering up Child Abuse are not against me, but are against God Himself and His organisation.. But then, it is my place to act on my conscience. Our conscience should be trained through use of the scriptures, and what use would that be if we didn't act on it ?

Daily i pray to God for direction and guidance. Ah, it would be so easy if He sent down an angel with a message wouldn't it.  If He were to tell me, do this or do that. But I get nothing. My feeling is though, that if God disapproved of me a lot, that he would have me forget all about Him and go out into the 'world'. I suppose I'm in what i would call 'limbo' (though i don't know the real meaning of the word) but what I'm saying is, I'm neither serving God properly in any way and I'm not in the world. I trust no human at all for spiritual guidance.  I do not believe that the Governing Body of JW Org is the 'faithful and discreet slave', and that knocks a big hole in it all. So many things that i was taught as 'facts' way back in the 1970's have now been dismissed as mistakes. That is not 'the light getting brighter' because in my opinion God  and / or Jesus Christ would not have allowed those mistakes to have been used as teachings.  

Oh well enough for now. God Himself has given the authority to His son to do the judging. I will be judged just as everyone else will. I'm hoping I will receive some guidance through the scriptures and hopefully through holy spirit. Only time will tell. Have a good day.

2 hours ago, John Houston said:

Hello, John. You have issue with what is going on now all this attention with child abuse cases, the outside authority getting involved and they are bringing to bear their outside influence which is making things somewhat uncomfortable. Are things being covered up? No! Are the instances of abuse being handled? Yes! But are they being done so by worldly standards? No! Can the authorities be called in by the victim? Yes! And as been stated if the only one privy to what has happened, where is the proof? There has been only an accusation and that carries much weight. If true the person is disfellowshipped, but what if this was a lie? The person with worldly authorities involved now has much more than anything you have brought up, to worry about. And why should you know what my past sins are? 

You said you left, it bothered your conscience. So you know something of scripture. Remember the life of young Samuel when his parents took him to the tabernacle to serve? During his time there the sons of Eli were very wicked, doing things immoral and evil. Do you think Samuel wanted to come home when his parents came to visit, knowing what was going on at 'Jehovah's house'? Who was going to clean this up? The very same person One who is going to clean this matter up if in fact it is a matter that is filth and dirt on his name. This is not a 'man's ' organization, but Jesus is overseeing this part of Jehovah's entire administration. 

I've seen this occur before, we have to weather this storm, follow what is presented not what we think should be done. That is what hot Dathan and others in trouble. These authorities want to set rules that will go against what scripture have set out for us. We will obey, but not what is against scripture. As long as we live in this system we will have these instances, we are an imperfect group of people trying to serve and worship the God of who created all life. We will make mistakes even those who take the lead, Paul and Peter, James and John were also imperfect and are no better than those in charge today. Have a great day.

"Are things being covered up? No." Really. So did the GB refuse to hand over the documents to the court in California USA or not ? Did the UK branch refuse to hand over documents at first or not ? Yes it seems the UK branch handed them over eventually. Was there a serious problem in Australia or not ? Is the work being done by Reclaimed Voices in the Netherlands just all lies ?  Does the Supreme Court of Quebec have any grounds for a 'class action lawsuit' or not ? Was the two witness rule being used to stop progress on accusations by victims ? Is being disfellowshipped enough ? Past sins ? Are the actions of pedophiles 'past sins' or could it be that as some have mentioned, pedophilia is a mental illness and not controllable ?  And as for making sins known, the apostle Paul wasn't afraid to mention people's sins. 'A man having sex with his father's wife' I believe Paul said.... 

I left the Org for many reasons. 1. Yes it bothered my conscience to be part of an Org that would allow this to happen. 2. I could not go into the ministry and invite people into such an Org. 3. I did not want to get disfellowshipped for 'causing division in the congregation' as i would have been if I spoke about my concerns with others. 4. I thought and still think that brothers and sisters should be warned about what might happen to them in the ministry due to this situation. Basing this upon a recent happening in the Kingdom Hall which i regularly attended, where a brother was murdered last year. https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/knifeman-admits-devon-jehovahs-witness-791434 . 

There are many other questions in my mind now. The GB say they are the 'faithful and discreet slave'. they also say that others of the anointed are not of the faithful slave class. Why should we believe them? The GB have changed the meaning of scriptures many times, the generation one being a main issue. Now if they are being guided by Jesus and the holy spirit, why would they make these important mistakes ? Also why would they refuse to be helpful in the cleaning up of the JW Org ? Surely it does bring shame on Jehovah to have his name associated with child Abuse ? 

"follow what is presented not what we think should be done". Then you are worshipping men by believing everything they tell you, and obeying their orders without question... 'Put not your trust in earthling man, in whom no salvation belongs' (I think that is quoted right). I never follow what I'm told in such things unless it can be proved from scriptures.  And Jesus said 'I want mercy not sacrifice', meaning it's about God's word being a protection and about showing love and empathy. It is not about keeping an Organisation looking clean, 'like a whitewashed grave, full of dead men's bones'... And as for your comparison to the Apostles, well, it's laughable. The Apostles proved fully that they had God's and Jesus' approval and help. The Governing Body of JW Org in no way come close. The GB have only their own words to say they are the faithful slave class, they do not have any proof at all. 

I could go deeper, into the name Jehovah, but it's too late in the day. YHWH or in Hebrew properly HWHY from right to left. Why is it not Yahweh or as some say Yahovah or Yahowah ? The name Jehovah came from false religion and was convenient to use as people already knew it. But does that make it right ?

Enough. God Himself or Jesus Christ will judge me. They will look into my heart and they will know my complete life, so they will judge me on what they know about me and what the intentions of my heart are. They will know how I suffered child abuse, sexual. physical. mental, emotional, and how I still suffer torment from it all. And therefore they will see why i have taken my stand for truth.  

@AllenSmith And listening to you I couldn't agree more.... 

@AllenSmith I will take advice from God's word and 'not cast my pearls before swine'.  You sound very sad. 

@AllenSmith You sound aggressive and worried. I've finished my conversation with you. 

@TrueTomHarley You talk such rubbish unfortunately. I didn't go out with a splash, i didn't need or want  any attention thankyou. I do find it quite fully that no one is allowed to disagree with you though.  I therefore presume you are an Elder or higher in the ranks. Why shouldn't i presume as you and Allen have made so many presumptions about me..... It makes me tired having to repeat myself so i will not bother. You and Allen obviously want to bury your heads in the sand, so be it. And as for your idea of me being a 'fighter against God'. That would be funny if it were not so serious. It's a bit like saying the Nation of Israel were God's chosen people so they were a hundred times better than the surrounding nations. Oh yes but, the religious leaders of the Nation of Israel at the time of Jesus, would not believe the truth and not give up their 'high places'. And of course they condemned Jesus to death. Now Jesus would have been seen as an apostate of course, and so would the disciples / apostles. Wow, going against God's chosen priests. The Pharisees, the Sadducees and scribes. The whole Sanhedrin. Now how wrong could that have been ? At that time you would have said they were 'fighters against God' just as (the apostle) Paul did. You see how things can easily be twisted ? For I am not a fighter against God, and that is why i want the truth to be known and justice to be done. I notice you mention 'the current Watchtower policy', but how many people have previously suffered, to have this now 'current W/T policy'.  We will have to agree to differ, and yes i want a cleaner JW Org, and I'm sure God does too. . 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They do not.

Or rather, they do, but it is far less serious a problem than that of anyone else.

That is the significance of the data from Case 54.

As with Allen Smith, you too seem to want to generalise. If JW Org is God's chosen organisation then it needs to be kept clean and safe. It has to be a place where those that wish to serve God properly can have trust in the Elders and other congregation members. It is supposed to be going up to the mountain of Jehovah / Yahovah / Yahweh. It should be pure in it's worship and fair in it's dealings. As I've said before Jesus said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'. Where is the mercy in Child Abuse ? And as I've shown in my comment above, this problem is not going away, so don't put your head in the sand and ignore it.  The JW Org has to make a clean sweep and do some rethinking. The Governing Body are always 'rethinking' scriptures, and they say they are the 'Faithful and Discreet slave class', so maybe they should start acting like it. They should do what is right in God's eyes not in men's eyes..  It's not all about rules and being the boss. It's about having real love for God's people. When a person is disfellowshipped they announce from the platform that person X is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. When a person leaves the Org, such as myself, they say person X is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'.  They do not say that I or others left the Org of our own choice.  I wonder why? Could it be that so many are  leaving of their own choice ? Or could it be that they don't want any member of the congregation to talk to me or others ? The scripture they use for the idea of shunning is based on a brother / sister that is deliberately sinning against God. So they won't say that i or others have' left the Org' because they know we have not sinned against God, but that we have found genuine reasons to leave the Org. Other congregation members are guided to think it would be wrong for them to speak to us, but there is no scriptural backing for that. Anyway enough, it seems that you are not interested in facing facts or in getting the Org sorted out. Be like Allen, keep dreaming. I will wait on God Himself to sort it all out. I hope that God shows me mercy as I also hope God will show mercy to those who have suffered wrongly within the JW Org.

35 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Once again, aren’t you doing the same by condemning the organization with little knowledge?

 

It doesn’t matter if your brother is or was an Elder. My experience supersedes any trivial aspect of what people perceive the Watchtower to be. Not even an enthusiast Bethelite will EVER know what I know. So, your personal opinion means very little, especially since these recent abuse cases with Australia span from a period of 65 years, and people like you make it seem it happens every 30 seconds. I don’t BELIEVE YOU that your heart lies with the abused children as you put it, just to excuse your hate for the Org. I know people like you all my life, nothing changes in that regard.

 

And yes! I do mean HATE! So I’m not misjudging something that people plainly feel in their hearts but don’t have the guts or sincerity to admit. I’ve been around too many ex-witnesses, not to understand their ways.

 

Therefore, as compared to which OTHER organization? Like the ARC itself that didn’t want to investigate Australia’s government-run detentions centers that were willfully hiding the abuse from the public and threatened the Doctors, Nurses, Staff with prison time for being a whistleblower can you compare to the Watchtower. How many Elders were sent to a rehab facility like they do within the Catholic faith, for a problematic priest, rather than being excommunicated, can you compare the Watchtower with? I gave 1 example of a Catholic Father (Priest) that committed MURDER and the State of Texas allowed that priest to enter into this rehab facility with no prison time. It was ONLY after an investigative journalist found out, that this priest was finally brought to justice in 2017, after being free for 55 years and molested over a 100 children after the murder.

 

So, the Watchtower has nothing to hide. Only people like you, like to think so.

 

I think we must agree to differ. You keep going on about the ARC. What about the Charity Commision here in the UK. What about the Superior court of Quebec in Canada ? What about Reclaimed Voices in the Netherlands ? And what about the USA and the refusing to hand over the documents ? Then we have the IICSA here in the Uk that are most likely to act on what they know and have another investigation, whether joint with the Charity Commision or separately. Add to this the upcoming Protest in London in August, which they hope will go international.  https://www.gofundme.com/EXJW-Protest-London

Then the very recent report in Devon Live  https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/jehovahs-witness-used-position-abuse-1333304 

This situation is not going away. But as you seem to be acting like God himself. knowing good and bad about everything, then there is little point me wasting my time talking to you. You keep pretending there isn't a problem within the Org. Keep kidding yourself. As for me,  I will wait on God to sort it all out. Then when i feel the time is right I will rejoin the JW Org. My prayers go to God daily through Jesus Christ. I ask him for direction and for His help in knowing what He wants me to do. I do not need people like you to tell me what to do.

51 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That being the case,

This is by far the most significant fact to emerge from the ARC data. It is the one you should focus on.

Have you ever been a victim of child abuse ? I'll tell you for sure it lasts a lifetime. A person cannot remove it from their own mind. Only God will truly clean up a person's mind in the new world.... So, do you think a person is entitled to some sort of compensation during this life? And I'm not talking about the idea of someone trying to get lots of money out of it... But, If a person was disfellowshipped for making a complaint or report of being abused as a child, should they not be offered the chance of being reinstated with a 'clean slate'. Is it possible that in the past JW members were abused and then thrown out of the Org with no one to turn to ? Should those ones not be shown the love that God offers through Jesus Christ ?  And if what has happened in the past has ruined a person's life then maybe a small amount of money to help them in some constructive way ? Not massive amounts of money as has been in some cases, (in different countries around the Earth) which seems to have been just to shut people up. I keep coming back to the words of Jesus ' I want mercy not sacrifice '. It should not be about the 'rules', it should be about helping those that need the help. And to you too i will mention the scripture at Matthew ch 12, v 9 through 12. Jesus said at the end of this scripture,  'So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the sabbath'. Do you get the sense of that ? He was saying it's not about the law, not about who was right or wrong, it's about showing love and empathy to those in need. 

@AllenSmith you misjudge me if you think I hate the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation. I left the Org because I could not in my conscience try to encourage people to join an org that has a serious problem with Child Abuse. However, having been part of the Org and also having a physical brother who is an Elder in a congregation, I do know a little about how it works. Having been threatened with being disfellowshipped and seeing first hand how the Elders rule over the congregation, I do know what I'm talking about. My information gained is not all from the internet. However, my personal feelings are that God must surely have an organisation here on this Earth, and the JW Org would seem the closest to doing what God wants. So, my hope is that God will cleanse His chosen organisation, if it is the JW Org, or whichever one He chooses... As I've said, in my opinion the JW Org is the closest one to doing God's will, so I presume God will sort it out in His own time. But that is why I'm only concerned with the JW Org. As for this stupid notion that just because Child Abuse is ripe the Earth over, then it becomes old news and not important. That is the danger of over generalising. That is another reason I'm only interested in the Org that i think God is trying to use.  I seriously think we are close to Armageddon, therefore it is very important to have an Org that people can trust. Whilst the JW Org is digging itself deeper into the mire over the Pedophilia issue then it will not and cannot be fully trusteed.... If the Governing Body  were trying to serve God properly then why are they refusing to obey the law of the land by refusing to hand over Child Abuse accusation documents ? If the GB have nothing to hide then why not come clean completely, which would then help the Org to move forward in God's work. Then also In my opinion they should review their ideas on certain scriptures to be more helpful to people, rather than just being dictators. Please remember that Jesus said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'. I think the scripture at Matthew 12, v 9 through 12 is fabulous. Jesus basically says here that the Law was written as a helper and protection of the people, not a burden for the people.. I know that we are no longer living under the Mosaic law but the same issue applies. The Governing Body has made rules to govern the people within, and the Elders too have to follow those rules without question. But it seems that now some Elders are beginning to use their own conscience, and to think more on the scriptures and less on the Governing Body's rules. If it is not careful the JW Org will become divided within itself. I hope that does not happen, but i do hope the Org gets cleansed of it's problems before it's too late. 

8 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

That depends on what side of the spectrum you find yourself in. To the ARC, it was perfectly allowable to look the other way when it came to their government run detention centers that had, have, and will continue to have cases of sexual abuse. The Australian government went even further to make it illegal for the workers in those facilities to make a charge. They would receive jail time for being whistleblowers. Similar conditions exist in the UK, Canada, and some EU countries, that want to pass the buck to others, rather than face their own governmental failures.

Now in Australia? Clergy confessional still plays a big role by territory, so NOT ALL territories adhere to this mandatory reporting unless certain provisions are met!

You write much but say little. It's so easy to widen out and use blanket excuses to cover all. My only concern is the Child Abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation / Watchtower and Bible Tract society.  The Governing Body of those Orgs' say they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' as mentioned in the bible. Note I say, they say they are, and they expect all in the Orgs to believe them. They are proving themselves to be the 'wicked slave' that is also mentioned in the same scripture. 

You write much but say little. It's so easy to widen out and use blanket excuses to cover all. My only concern is the Child Abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation / Watchtower and Bible Tract society.  The Governing Body of those Orgs' say they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' as mentioned in the bible. Note I say, they say they are, and they expect all in the Orgs to believe them. They are proving themselves to be the 'wicked slave' that is also mentioned in the same scripture. The Child Abuse accusations are Earthwide about JW org and i don't think they are lies or just crack pots making things up for the sake of it. If each case of an accusation was immediately taken to the outside authorities then there could have been no cover up. People Earthwide that were in the Org are saying that they were told NOT TO TAKE IT TO THE OUTSIDE AUTHORITIES. When you can understand this then you might just get the sense of it all. How easy it was to keep it all covered up. Then also, the congregation members were not told of any pedophiles in their congregations. And it seems, that some men that were already being watched for being accused of pedophilia were given higher responsibility in the congregations. Add to this that the Governing Body refused to hand over the documents to the Supreme Court in California, whilst the Org ha handed over documents in Australia and UK, so why not USA ? Basically it stinks of complete cover up. 

Thank you for all this information and encouragement. It is a great help to me. I do feel lost as if in a wasteland, a desert. I am also having moments of depression. I have anti-depressant tablets but try not to take them as they make me feel too tired and make my mind 'cloudy'.  I do pray very often and for many reasons, to thank God for His wonderful creation and for life itself, and for guidance, and to help me not to become bitter and angry. I pray for the help of His holy spirit, to be kind and gentle with others, and to try to get understanding from the scriptures. I also, as you have mentioned, pray for others and ask God to help those whom are truly searching for Him.... 

More information on the ARC and any other would be very welcomed, thank you. 

May God be with you and your family. 

This is an addition added after rereading your comment, but I wanted to put it here first. I really loved your last two paragraphs. They make complete sense. Thank you. 

I agree with you on most of your comment here. I will have to get my head together, reread your comment, and come back to you slightly later in the day. I am not anti -JW. I only left the Org because of what I'd discovered regarding the Child Abuse problems. However, from what I've gathered online, the Australian JW Org handed over the documents to the ARC, The UK JW Org handed over the documents to the Charity Commision, but, the USA JW Org /WT or Governing Body, or their legal departments, are refusing to hand over, what might possibly be twenty years worth of child Abuse accusations documents to the Supreme Court of California. Now if the online news is true, this is costing the American (or earthwide) JW Org $2,000 per day in fines. amounting to, it seems, over $2 million so far. ( Unfortunately i cannot seem to find any updates on this, which is frustrating. Is the JW Org actually paying this ? Do they still owe this ? Has it all been squashed and forgotten ? ) But I'm going off course herre. My point was that the Org in different countries are acting in different ways regarding this situation. Therefore it is splitting up the 'oneness' of the Organisation. In my opinion it cannot be 'against the law or rules of God' to obey 'the law of the land' in this matter. If it was then surely the Org in Australia and UK have gone against God ? It makes no sense. 

As for your last sentence, I fully agree with you. But, do we endure within an earthly organisation or do we endure alone ? We will of course be judged as individuals whether we are within or outside an Org. I do truly feel that the JW Org are right in many of their teachings and i can see the need for a lot of their instruction. but obviously the Org cannot be allowed to continue with it's wrongful course regarding Child Abuse / Pedophilea and some other issues. So for me its a case of, will God cleanse the JW Org ? Will God chose another Org ? Or will God help us as individuals to 'go it alone' ?  

Now backtracking a bit on your comments above. 

"But as for JWs, it may probably depend on what the elders says and how the family is to takes action, for if it were me and my child is victim, I would talk to the elders of what happen even having my child speak, and whether they tell me or not, I will go to the police so they can handle this, what can be done internally on the church's side, the elders,will most likely give some details on who the person is and I myself as a parent can see if so and so is indeed the person who did the crime". 

There are two issues here but once again I have no proof of the claims being made, only reading of many court cases that have quoted these things.

1. Many claims are being made (leading to many court cases) in the JW Org of different countries, that Elders were instructed to tell people not to report any child abuse to the police or any outside authority, as it would bring shame on the Org / Jehovah. Along with this there are also claims that people were threatened with being disfellowshipped for reporting things to the police / outside authorities.   And in some cases it would seem that people have been disfellowshipped and felt most alone as no one would even talk to them. 

2. Again claims have been made that the GB gave instruction that the Elders should not warn the congregation of pedophiles within their congregation. Therefore congregation members would not know they needed to be extra careful and they would have no idea who was 'unsafe'  for their children to be with. Remembering that the Kingdom Hall, though only being  a building and a meeting place, is supposed to be a very safe place for people to meet together, not only to give praise, but to feel secure and relaxed in each others company.  

So if these claims are true then the Elders 'hands are tied' and they cannot do anything of their own choice. 

I will add here, ( and this is what i find worrying ) that I had a case way back in 2009, when i reported an Elder to the Body of Elders of my congregation for something very serious and personal. Well, I say I reported it to the 'Body of Elders', and here is another problem, it seems my letter was only seen by two or three Elders and the rest of the Elders knew nothing about it. Anyway, I was called into the Kingdom Hall, to 'talk it through' with, what I thought would be the 'body of elders'. As it happened there were only two Elders present. One sat behind me and said nothing. The other Elder did all the talking and it was obvious from the outset that he had made his mind up about the matter before even listening to me. He did not even listen to my accusations against the Elder, it was easy to see that he was 'closing his ears to it all'. But what he did do was to say to me that I would be disfellowshipped if i did not retract everything i had said against that Elder. My response was simple, I told him, if he thought he had the authority to disfellowship me then he should go ahead and do it. I didn't wait for an answer, i got up and left the hall..... Needless to say nothing happened and i wasn't disfellowshipped. In fact i wasn't even reproved.

But what i found out for myself was,  the Elders would only believe what they wanted to believe, and, not all Elders are informed about things taking place within their own congregation. Hence when I resigned from the Org, I sent out emails to as many of the Elders as I could. (We have a list of Elders and their phone numbers and email addresses). So I was sure that most of the Elders knew I had resigned.... 

The reason I've added that personal experience is to show that i have fair to good reason not to trust the body of Elders, and to show that any person that may try to report Child Abuse or any other wrongdoing, may not get a fair hearing, especially if the accused is an Elder. I honestly think they 'protect their own' as it were. 

So I have a serious problem here. Do i return to the JW Org, which would mean being obedient to 'men' / Elders / Governing Body that i do not trust ?  Do I look for a different Org ? Or do i just 'go it alone' and try to serve God 'my own way'. If i went my own way would God help me if i prayed to him regularly? I honestly do not know what God wants from me, but i do know that serving God is of the utmost importance. God deserves to be served, He deserves praise and thanks, and as you have said, we should stand up for the truth and truthful teachings. 

I hope some of this makes sense. 

With all due respect, that's a lot of words, covering a multitude of subjects, but not giving me a clue as to what you are really meaning.

“And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed”  Rev 7:4 Yes but, 

  REV 7 v 9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*f standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;gand there were palm branches in their hands. ¹⁰  And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,i and to the Lamb.” 

Whilst  i believe in the 144,000 of the 'heavenly class' I also believe in this large 'Earthly class' too. so how did this earthly class of people come to be ? Without the earthwide preaching work it would not be possible. And to do earthwide preaching work in a consistent way you need to be organised. If not you may be blood guilty of missing people out by not offering them God's message.

As for any of your quotes prior to 1931 there wasn't a JW Org as such, they were just bible students looking for the truth. There were many disagreements within the 'ranks' even then. So it can easily be seen that it wasn't the 'same' Org as it is now. Some of the earlier brothers even refused to do the preaching work.

I do agree with you about the apostle Paul, I think he was great, didn't mince his words and told it as it was. But, he did receive directly the holy spirit from God through his vision by Jesus Christ. So he wasn't just an ordinary disciple. He didn't need instruction from the 'older men' in Jerusalem because he had received it directly from Jesus Christ.

As for this quote, I feel you have slightly misused it. “Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”  Gal 5:1.. This was talking about not getting circumcised so as not to be in slavery to the 'Law of Moses'... 

As for the preaching work, it was originally organised by Jesus himself.  Mark Ch 6 V7 onwards.  King James Bible

And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; 8And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: 9But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats. 10And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.  v 12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

 So there is the beginning of the preaching work. 

Jesus instructed his 11 disciples at Matthew 28  ¹⁸  Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.n ¹⁹  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, ²⁰  teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.q And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” 

That wasn't to go just to the nation of Israel. and the good News of the Kingdom is to be and probably has been preached in all the nations too.

¹⁴  And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations,q and then the end will come.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  

Whichever version you prefer. 

I think in all fairness it can easily be seen that there was an earthly organisation of Christians from the time of Jesus onwards. 

What we think of the JW Org / WT GB now is of course a totally different matter. I do not think they are inspired of God, and I think they have jumped forward as and when they see fit, not relying on God to guide them. As for the Child Abuse, that seems to prove to me that the JW Org is not serving God properly.

However, I still feel that God will have a clean Organisation of some sort  before Armageddon. I also believe that some JW's will get through Armageddon and some who are not JW's will also get through. It will be an individual judgement. 

Um, don't agree with you. For instance there was a form of 'governing body' though of course not called such. The older men or elders in Jerusalem had to make decisions on behalf of all. This is proved by the problem about circumcision, which had to be resolved by the apostles and elders. ( Acts chapter 15 ) They are called Elders even in the King James bible. Once a decision had been made Paul and Barnabas and others then had to relay that decision to the congregations. Surely you can see that, that was organised, hence an organisation. Congregations were taught from the Apostles and Elders or older men. The fact that Paul wrote so many letters to different congregations also proves that early Christians were an organisation. An organisation in as much as they were led by the apostles and elders /older men. And also the fact that in Matthew 24 v 14, Jesus said that the gospel or good news of the Kingdom would be preached worldwide / earthwide. If, as you say, that we don't need an organisation, then how would Jesus' words here come true ?  Most religions don't even believe in God's Kingdom. Most people don't even believe in God's Kingdom. So are you saying that Jesus was wrong ? I hope not.