JOHN BUTLER

..... and that is how the Brothers and Sisters down at the bottom got blamed for "1975".

I have a tendency to forgive those who have sinned against me . especially if they live more than a thousand miles away.
The rest is prorated, by distance.
If they get close enough, I keep "one in the chamber".

This is to all JWs. 
Wouldn’t God expect a product of real truth from his anointed ones?   IF they remain in Christ, Jesus promised he would send the Helper who would tell them, “all things”, which would be truth.   What sort of “things” has the GB passed on to its followers?  John 14:26  “Beliefs Clarified”. 
“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me.  John 15:5
Which means, without remaining in Christ, they cannot produce lasting fruit or teachings.  Without remaining in Christ, their teachings rot and need replacing.  Matt 7:17-20  This is the spiritual scene in the exalted  “Jehovah’s organization”, where the leaders suppress the knowledge of Christ and heighten the “knowledge” of 8 men.
When the nation of Israel did not follow the straight line God laid out for them, but wandered from, or rebelled against God’s decrees, choosing to exalt their idols over God,  they suffered; and not with just a slap on the hand. God removed His protection and lives were lost.  That was history in the making.
“Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 1 Cor 10:6-11
 
Of course, you are somewhat jesting, but it is sad to say such things about the Almighty God, which lessens how important it is for all of us to adhere to His Word in Christ, and not those of men who stumble over their own lips.  Ps chapter 12, ends with, “and what is worthless ("vile", such as rotten fruit) is exalted by the human race”. The organization has the nerve to exalt their blunders - Beliefs Clarified, which is mind boggling.   I believe you are delusional, not alert to the history of God’s people when they fall into sin, or listen to lies.  Discarded teachings are lies, present teachings are lies.  Anymore, there are few of your teachings that are truth.  Rev 16:13,14
The organization’s entire existence is sin against Christ.  It challenges his word and his priesthood, with the words of men and their counterfeit priesthood.   It fulfills prophesy as the “man of lawlessness” that blasphemes God’s sanctuary/temple in the anointed ones.    Rev 13:1,2,10,18  Remember, they are told not to meet or study the Bible together.  They are threatened and restrained from any independent movement to pursue Truth on their own without risking all that encompasses their “life” in the organization. Rev 13:15
Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, Not from the mouth of the LORD.  Jer 23:16
There are so many examples of WT leaders speaking “a vision of their own imagination”, and yet JWs  keep listening to them.  We don’t “take what is offered”, but listen to Christ who said we would know those whom he would send, by their “fruit”, that would last.   Do JWs hear those words from the Bible?   WHO’S WORDS ARE MORE IMPORTANT, THE GB’S?  OR THOSE OF CHRIST?
Satan presented to Eve a “nourishing food” which contradicted the Word of God.  That lie/food brought death to her and Adam, and her seed.  Any teaching that obviously has been proven not to be from God, brings the same death upon those who create it and those who ingest it and call it truth!  Deut 18:19-22 There is nothing  illuminating or life-giving about it, but it holds an artificial light which Satan is fully capable of producing. 2 Cor 11:13-15  Any group of leaders who do this year after year consistently, did not radiate the light of Christ from day one, no matter what they use to convince you of it.  It is all…a delusion prophesied to occur during the last days, that grabs hold of the anointed ones and their companions. The delusion effectively covers over the presence of the “man of lawlessness”, which is the organization, where the unsealed anointed are not safe under the elder “Gentile” Body.  Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3; 13:1,2,7; 9:1-4 
Your words  “to learn to yield, cooperate, and get along with each other”, obviously originate with WT’s leaders.  Even swine wallowing in the mud can get along with each other.  However, to be Christ-like means to stand up for his pure word, separating ourselves from the historical muck of lies, even if we are persecuted for it.  Isa 52:11; Matt 5:10
 
2 Thess 2:9-12: “This man (man of lawlessness) will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. 10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil *rather than believing the truth.”
*This isn't WT's version of truth, but that of Christ's.
Do JWs enjoy being fools?  As the saying goes, 'fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me’.  Sadly, the majority apparently have no shame.
Dead flies make a perfumer’s oil ferment and stink;
so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor.
2 A wise man’s heart goes to the right,
but a fool’s heart to the left.
3 Even when the fool walks along the road, his heart lacks sense,
and he shows everyone he is a fool.
 
5 There is an evil I have seen under the sun, an error proceeding from the presence of the ruler:
6 The fool is appointed to great heights, (GB)
but the rich remain in lowly positions. (the rest of the anointed under its rule)
7 I have seen slaves on horses,
but princes walking on the ground like slaves. (the trampling of God’s temple by a false priesthood who rules over the royal priesthood/Temple of God.  1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 11:1-3  They are the true princes under the Prince/King of Peace,  not the elder body – Isa 9:6; Dan 12:1; Isa 49:24,25; Rev 19:16; 3:21; 5:9,10 )
12 The words from the mouth of a wise man are gracious,
but the lips of a fool consume him.
13 The beginning of the words of his mouth is folly,
but the end of his speaking is evil madness. (example, the evolution of “this generation”)
14 Yet the fool multiplies words.
No one knows what will happen,
and who can tell anyone what will happen after him?  Eccl chapter10 
The Bible is full of the admonition to seek the wisdom of God.  Why would we settle for the folly of a fool? 
A scoffer seeks wisdom and does not find it, but knowledge is easy to him who understands. Go from the presence of a foolish man, when you do not perceive in him the lips of knowledge. The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way, but the folly of fools is deceit. Fools mock at sin, but among the upright there is favor.   Prov 14:6-9
And yes, Jesus desires us to become, “perfect”, by listening to his wisdom. Matt 5:48 It is only men who continually remind you how imperfect you are, capturing you in a spiritual time capsule, and away from the wisdom of the Christ, that halts one’s growth to maturity in the Truth.  Rev 3:18  These men promise you perfection after Armageddon, when Christ promises it now.  John 6:27  
Of interest, "The Throne of Satan", 4womaninthewilderness   Pearl Doxsey

Oh dear poor TTH is so mixed up in his head. In one of his previous comments he  mentions searching (for truth presumedly). 
Quote " But if one gets the sense of verses such as 1 Peter 1:10 about diligent inquiries, careful searches, keep on investigating, or Matthew 24–“let the reader use discernment”—then it is true. If one is doing what Jesus says, “Keep on the watch” in light that is insufficient, then it happens. "
BUT JW's are told not to have their OWN OPINIONS. JW's are told to rely on the GB (who pretend to be the F&DS).  Sharing one's own opinions in a KH can get a person put on the 'watched list' and later lead to a person being D'fed for 'Causing division within the congregation'.   Tom will of course deny this, even though he knows it to be true. 
It is so funny to me that JW's are encouraged to do personal Bible study, yet, not have their own opinion on scripture. 
Quote " Paul says grab hold of the “real life” " . Ah but the GB says only grab hold of the 'life' they offer. 
The Bible tells us to serve God through Christ. The GB tell congregants to serve them, to trust them as they are the (pretend) F&DS. The GB makes a false statement, that God and Jesus trust them.  The Pope could just as easy make that same statement. 
QUOTE TTH "There is nothing wrong with the present leadership among Jehovah’s Witnesses."
If Tom really believes this then HE has a problem. 

I should just point out that this is another type of dishonesty you engage in frequently. Whenever you are asked to point out the place or occasion which induced you to come up with this false claim, you have always changed the subject. You know that I have never made a reference your mother in any way, shape or form. Any further attempt to promote such dishonesty will be met with more honest words from me, no matter how much the truth hurts. 😀

I know them about as well as you know them. Doesn't mean I agree with their conclusions. If someone is serious about their research, I'll take it seriously, too. I called the WTS with questions on several occasions when working through the claims being made by outsiders about the JW era in Hitler's Germany, and both Brother H.Peloyan and Brother J.Pellechia said they didn't know the answers, exactly, but pointed me to a book by M.James Penton, with a reminder that although he answers the questions I had, that this doesn't mean we need to subscribe to all of his conclusions. I agree with them, and appreciated their honesty. I bought Penton's book about Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich specifically on the recommendation of Brother Pellechia.
I think you are at least 100 times more "devoted" to everything I say than Anna.
I agree with the Watchtower which also has said many times that we should challenge the Watchtower teachings to see if they speak the truth. If you disagree, then you are simply disagreeing with the Watchtower. That should not be a problem to anyone, if you have good Biblical reasons, but in this case the Watchtower agrees with the Bible.
If that were true, you should have been able to show me at least one case where I did that. So far, you've shown no evidence of any misrepresentation.
Remember, however, that this is about what the Watchtower publications have had to say. I have noticed, for example, that the Watchtower, for a time, confused the end of the Gentile Times with October 1914, then posited dates as late as October 1915, then August 1914, then back to October 1914, and then in the 1920's the Watchtower began presenting material that claimed Russell had made an announcement at Bethel on October 1st, then October 4th, then October 2nd. However, I had never noticed one of the Watchtower quotations that was pictured (in context) in the material that @Noble Berean presented. Where I can learn something, I'm always happy to learn.
That's because I recognized instantly that you were flat out wrong about @Matthew9969 being the same as @Noble Berean. There was absolutely no evidence for it and a lot of evidence against it. However, I think I know exactly why you made the mistake in thinking so yourself. If you're interested, I can help you understand.
I insinuated exactly the opposite. That this cultish behavior was already generally cleaned up way back in Rutherford's time, with lingering influences from some who never seemed to completely cleanse themselves from the ideologies of that period.
All you have to do is point out one of these falsehoods or dishonesties and I will immediately change my mind about it and apologize. As I said, you've had four years of opportunities. I'm sure I've made several mistakes in that time period.
(Proverbs 10:19) 19 In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression,. . .  

There are people who have spent their whole lives in prison ... and when they get out ... freedom scares them so badly, they commit more crime for the sole reason to be convicted and GO BACK to prison, where they are surrounded with what they have become comfortable with.
As a small boy, I maintained that Santa Clause was real, long after I knew he was not .... because although I did not believe in Santa, I believed in presents!
Truth scares many people who have integrated a web of lies into their lives ... and they resist it and vilify it as it shakes the web and they are afraid of falling away.
So ... they wait until the spider comes, and eats them, secure in the knowledge of their noble sacrifice.
 
 
 

Truth means "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Not whitewashed, partial truth, and not just the "spin" that tickles our ears.
That's everyone's own business whether they would rather know the whole truth, or ignore the truth, or assume that others can and should prioritize for them what they need to know as "the truth."
But, for me, I think we would be hypocrites to sing songs like we just did this last week. (Make the Truth Your Own), the comments on Colossians 2:8, etc., etc. Most of our meetings contain small reminders that we need to "love" truth. It shouldn't matter where it takes us. Actually, it should matter. And it should matter, even more, that some people don't want us to go where it takes us. 
It's difficult for most of us to admit that the "Watchtower religion" has been a cult in the past. (In the more pejorative sense of the word.) The Watchtower publicly admits that this is true, claiming that many of the Bible Students were cult worshipers of Charles Taze Russell. We know that Rutherford said he determined to rid the Watchtower of the personality cult that worshiped Russell. He called this "creature worship" because they were worshiping a man. But we also know that, for many years, Rutherford himself was part of the same cult, and even bragged in 1916 that Russell's enemies would soon have to come and "worship at his feet."
But, in general, I think Rutherford finally did a pretty good job replacing the cult members with persons who were looking for practical Bible truth, and not just for a man to do their thinking for them. But many persons, even Watchtower writers, have confused God and the earthly organization. And, this idea might surprise many, but I think that F.W.Franz gave evidence that he remained as a "cult" member until he died. He loved being seen as the the primary Rabbi --The ORACLE, they called him-- and it went to his head as he tried for his entire career to revive interest in dates, chronology, numerology, Jubilees, new truths (prophetic interpretations), parallel dispensations, the pre-eminence of the truly anointed, etc. I think his influence created cult members out of several ordinary Witnesses. I believe that my great-grandfather (from even before F.Franz was at Bethel) was a "cult" member in the organization until the 1960's when he died, even though my other relatives were (and are) regular JWs, and not cult members. I'm pretty sure that C.Woodworth was a cult member until the 1950's when he died. I know that when they searched out documentation and photos for the Proclaimer's book, they were astounded at the "cult" material still available in Witnesses' archives, including F.Franz himself.
And many Witnesses, today, are tempted to look at 8 men exactly the way that Bible Students looked at Russell. The way we defend or dismiss the material from our past history can be an indicator as to whether we too have succumbed to cult thinking. Even the way we defend current material that came out of long-standing traditions of the past can also be an indicator. I can talk to Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists for hours and recognize almost immediately which ones are in a "cult" and which ones aren't by the manner in which they defend Ellen G White or Joseph Smith when glaring problems are pointed out.
(Job 31:26-28) 26 If I saw the sun shining Or the moon moving in its splendor; 27 And my heart was secretly enticed, And my mouth kissed my hand in worship of them; 28 Then that would be an error deserving punishment by the judges, For I would have denied the true God above.

to disturb us
to put us in uncomfortable zone
to make us suspicious
to loose faith in .... human and perhaps in god
to make us to think
to open possibility how we based our believes on false ideas
....etc 
 

I appear to be behind the times here.
Mike & Kim I know of from a video I watched of them on YouTube, where they seemed a bit too silly and flippant (perhaps even tipsy?). But their information was lousy, and they were promoting this idea that elders were destroying necessary CSA evidence, when they were really misinterpreting "good practice" counsel from the WTS about record-keeping.  Maybe they have done their homework on other videos, but I won't waste my time because I don't trust them based on the random one I watched. P. Asare I have never heard of. John Redwood is related to John Cedars, who is somehow related to Lloyd Evans, as I saw these names on JW Survey. I downloaded that site to read later, but I did read all the headlines from the site, just never got back to it. Average Joe I have never heard of. Bill Bowen is the former elder who put his face behind "Silent Lambs" which intended to expose CSA crimes among JWs. I understand that Barbara Anderson worked with him to get it started and get it named but that Barbara Anderson didn't trust his motives or his personality and backed away from it. (I have read much of Anderson's site, and the name comes up often when I search Google on several different historical and CSA topics.) WiFiBandit sounds very familiar but I do not know from where. (I suspect this is a Jehovahs-Witness forum participant. I don't care much about the work of most ex-JWs for purposes of testing their claims, or defense against their claims, unless I'm convinced that they have done their homework, and are not prone to taking things out of context. For this reason, I have purchased 2 books from M.J.Penton, 1 from C.O.Jonnson, and 2 from E.C.Gruss. (I also have two books from R.Franz that I picked up online as free pdfs. I also picked up a book called Apostles of Denial from archive.org, which is also from E.C.Gruss.)
Otherwise, I pretty much ignore current online sources because I think they tend to get their info from other sources anyway, and misinterpret or misrepresent what they said. For this reason I won't bother with those who don't do their own work, when it comes to claims we should test for ourselves.
Compared to people who appear to have gone to original sources and documented their work, I'd guess that most of these online personalities are probably just repeating things. Any of them, including the authors I mentioned, might also have had bad motives. We should expect that this taints their own conclusions. But it's worth looking at their work, especially if a lot of it is true, regardless of their own motives or conclusions. Perhaps we'll look at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion.

Oh dear poor TTH is so mixed up in his head. In one of his previous comments he  mentions searching (for truth presumedly). 
Quote " But if one gets the sense of verses such as 1 Peter 1:10 about diligent inquiries, careful searches, keep on investigating, or Matthew 24–“let the reader use discernment”—then it is true. If one is doing what Jesus says, “Keep on the watch” in light that is insufficient, then it happens. "
BUT JW's are told not to have their OWN OPINIONS. JW's are told to rely on the GB (who pretend to be the F&DS).  Sharing one's own opinions in a KH can get a person put on the 'watched list' and later lead to a person being D'fed for 'Causing division within the congregation'.   Tom will of course deny this, even though he knows it to be true. 
It is so funny to me that JW's are encouraged to do personal Bible study, yet, not have their own opinion on scripture. 
Quote " Paul says grab hold of the “real life” " . Ah but the GB says only grab hold of the 'life' they offer. 
The Bible tells us to serve God through Christ. The GB tell congregants to serve them, to trust them as they are the (pretend) F&DS. The GB makes a false statement, that God and Jesus trust them.  The Pope could just as easy make that same statement. 
QUOTE TTH "There is nothing wrong with the present leadership among Jehovah’s Witnesses."
If Tom really believes this then HE has a problem. 

If someone is quoting ONLY straight excerpts from various Society's publications .... HOW CAN THEY BE MISREPRESENTING WHAT HAS BEEN SAID?

Since I am a self-proclaimed Barbarian, Billy, I can only assume you are trying to flatter me for some romantic reason.  It will NOT work!

Come on James, you don't have to put yourself in that dark place. Think positive thoughts.

The purpose of demanding TRUTH ... is to get TRUTH .... not someone else's delusional fantasys that are engineered to make a slave of you, and separate you from your money.
The PRACTICAL benefit of knowing TRUTH, years ago, is that I did not have to go to Vietnam, and kill people to support a political agenda, as THE classical example.

It is simply not that way.
Everything else is permitted to have a history, and in no case is that history one of straight line problem-to-solution. In every case they include wandering, exploring, waffling, flip-flopping, backing-up, dealing with human foible and imperfection. 
Only in the case of spiritual things do some demand a final perfected product delivered as though by Santa, without history.
And this demand usually stems from but a few common factors. Jesus says “exert yourselves vigorously” and people tire of doing that. Paul says grab hold of the “real life” and people say, “yeah, that means this one.” Jesus says “When the Son of Man returns, will he really find the faith on earth?” and Srecko answers in purple, “Not if I can help it, he won’t.”
There is nothing wrong with the present leadership among Jehovah’s Witnesses. Or rather there is—it is comprised of people. But that has always been the case, and if you complain to God that you will only stick around where there is perfection, He will say, “Well, you are no great shakes yourself. You’ll have to take what is offered. It will do you good to learn to yield, cooperate, and get along with each other.”
If you really think that the “real life” is what 1 Timothy 6 says it is, and that you-know-who is the ruler of this world, like Jesus says he is, then you realize that the two “worlds” being polar opposites in so many ways is going to cause you some present problems in this system of things. If you are inclined to stick with one, you will have problems from the other.

But Organized Religion have power to make Bible as cult manual :))))

@TrueTomHarley
How about lifesaving glass  of water in desert with few drops of dangerous substances in it ? :)) perhaps drops of purple color :))
Or, we can make agreement how nothing is wrong with previous WTJWORG "brighter lights". Because ...
If I understand you enough, here you sad how "previous light was not so good" and as result, your "keeping on the watch" turn out to be wrong because you saw lot of wrong things in poor light.
Well, does this mean how JHVH as Source of that Light, that was not enough Bright (that was not so good) should take a blame for that wrong understanding of His servant?
 And how is possible that WTJWORG "spiritual food" represents "light that grows brighter" ? What is the cause here and what is the result?
Did published "spiritual food" caused "brighter light" for person to see better around him? Or "brighter light" caused publishing good "spiritual food" for person to better understand what is happening around him ? 
But you bring right idea, how poor "previous light" was not Sufficient for  healthy "spiritual food" ... because Source of the Light for such Err, Not Perfect spiritual food was not in God or Jesus, but in Humans.  
What purpose? To our conclusion how previous BS and JW generations died in false and err doctrines, hopes and beliefs? To our conclusion how present, current JW members will also die in false and err doctrines and hopes?? :))
Destroying bad food in shop store is not a ban. Destroying  published publications as evidence would be a crime. :)) But internet provide possibility to save material for searching and redefinition of WT doctrinal history. 
Of course, current JW members, in general, have no time, no wish to read old publications and put effort to critical thinking on past and present teachings.

Since when would truth coming from God through Christ, which is spiritual food that imparts eternal life…have a “shelf life”?   John 14:6
“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”  John 15:16
What is received from God regarding spiritual knowledge is a “gift”.
“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.”  James 1:17
The “fruit” produced by the apostles has lasted.  The teachings by all faithful anointed since, would be based on this lasting fruit.  The opening of the scrolls of Revelation is the culmination of this lasting fruit; enhanced, with nothing previously known to be discarded.   
Yes, Watchtower’s spiritual food apparently has a shelf life, which is what JWs are accustom to.  If we apply the knowledge Christ gave us in the scriptures, we then realize…
1.     The GB members are not appointed by God and Christ
2.     Which makes them false “christs”/prophets
3.     Who have deceived the “elect” in the last days.  Matt 24:24
If you believe that spiritual food was meant to have a temporary shelf life, then you are calling both God and Christ, liars.  
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”  Matt 4:4
I would hope some JW would consider these scriptures the next time they hear that "Jehovah" is providing nourishing spiritual food through the "faithful and discreet slave".  
 
 

Sometimes they do. Sometimes they wear belt buckles announcing that “God is With Us.” Sometimes they say, “God and Country!” and “My country—right or wrong!” Sometimes they see a cross in the sky and lead soldiers to their death on that basis.
That’s because the ones most revered in popular press today do not believe in God. Duh.
 
The only one who can “ruin your life” is you. Give it a rest, will you?
Many are the ones who have let me down in my life. The most notable one is me. You pick up the pieces, thank God for the “discipline,” and move on. It makes you a better person if you are not constantly bellyaching at how others have “ruined your life.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult if and only if the Bible is a cult manual. The modern organization practices the discipline as best they can that is laid out in that book.

Science is constantly changing ... yes ... and physics and chemistry and nuclear science, astronomy and everything else becomes more refined as time goes on.
But when a scientific fact or principle is discovered or refined, they do not attribute the constant changes to inspiration from God, direction from God, and authority from God TO ENFORCE THOSE NEW CONCEPTS, under threat of banishment to Coventry.
A good example is the United States Marines .... everyone is flawed, and sometimes even more so the Officers ... and the work they do involves sacrifice, and life, and death.
BUT THEY DO NOT CLAIM AUTHORITY FROM ALMIGHTY GOD.
The same holds true with physicists, chemists, quantum scientists, astronomers, and a host of other's who learn as they go along.
BUT THEY DO NOT CLAIM AUTHORITY FROM ALMIGHTY GOD ...  and on the basis of that claim, collect sycophants, minions, and piles and piles of free money!
Those claiming authority and direction, and guidance from God, and have the power to ruin your life if you do not agree with them, MUST be held to a higher standard ....  or with a religiously inspired revelation and with great joy and happiness ..... we drink the grape kool-aid.
 

@James Thomas Rook Jr.  
3.) It would need for Sophia next episode on saving money by Congregational Resolution for new computers for Corporation, and for now, no one in The Department, at this moment are not moved, guided, led, empowered, learned, (inspired) by Spirit about new episode.

There were two problems:
1.) The Governing Body did not want to digitize everything as due to space requirements that  all text would have to be in lower case letters, and
2.) At the computer workstations  the mouses' cursors would bump into the edges of the monitors, and it would require building mouse pad extensions.

Yeah, because GB in USA is not like Russian's Judges who banned "problematic" books, no matter when were printed :))))
But i can see how JW Library do not have all WT Society publications printed from 1879. What is problem? Servers? IT network, Infrastructure? Cloud Storage? :))) 

....