JOHN BUTLER

As regards CSA, the org. is not in trouble because of some maliciously and wrongfully applied scripture involving the two witness rule. 
@Anna  You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want ok. 
Many victims have said that they were not believed because they did not have two witnesses to back up the facts they were giving to the elders. Many victims have said they were called liars for the same reason. Some victims have said they were even disfellowshipped because they continued to try to get justice from the Elders and the congregation.  
Carry on watching your stupid television programmes and using that as you form of judgement. I think that is dragging the bottom of the barrel as the saying goes but if it helps you ...........................  
Today, we (JWs) don't execute people obviously
The JW Org executes people spiritually. Well it tries to. It thinks it has the right to. It tries to frighten people into crawling back, begging the Org's forgiveness. 
However God's word says we should serve God through Christ, not through your GB or your Org. 

Well it's only my opinion but if a person in not part of the solution then they are part of the problem.
If a person does not believe what the GB / W/t / JW Org says, yet still supports them by attending meetings and even worse doing ministry, which involves distributing literature 'of a dubious nature' and giving bible studies which are not truly bible studies but indoctrination from GB / W/t books, then that person is part of the problem. 
And back to what Tom calls my favourite subject, if a person invites families with young children to the KH, knowing that the KH might not be a 'safe place' to be, then that person is also part of that problem.  But that problem is caused by the GB rules of course, which allows for the hiding of 'unkind' people in the congregations. 
James, none of your cartoons hide the facts that a person cannot sit on the fence. A person either supports the whole rotten lot or does not support them. Them being the GB / W/t / JW Org as a complete bundle. 

@Anna  So here you do go back on your word, well as you spoke it to me anyway. I think you were being slightly sarcastic to me, so I had to laugh when I read you latest comment, which seemed to go back on all you'd said to me. 
Quote " I realize it seems like I am contradicting myself since I said that one " should have all those "own opinions on scripture" cleared up, otherwise one wouldn't get baptized as one of JW since one of the requirements is to agree with all 100 questions asked in the "organized book" "
Yes completely contradicting yourself Anna. 
Of course when I was going through the questions in the 80’s there was no mention of the  FDS applying exclusively to the GB. We know this has been a recent change as is evident in the 2015 version of the book.
That's a good one to show Tom as he thinks there hasn't been important changes made. Like i say, breach of contract in the real world. 
Quote Anna " I  know for sure @James Thomas Rook Jr. only agrees with about 15% of the interpretations made by the GB and yet he remains a part of the congregation as far as I am aware. "
Yeh now that is what I call hypocrisy big time.   I mean a person could remain a Catholic with those principals. A Catholic could say 'You know like, i really dig the pope and the Catholic religion, but i don't believe half of what they say, but I'll stay Catholic anyway'.   
That is how stupid JW's sound when they stay physically in but spiritually / emotionally out. But I've said before, we all know why they do it. It's that Blackmail of losing everyone and everything. It frightens some people too much. 

JW congregants are not supposed to think rationally.  That's what all the meetings are for, to tell you what to think and tell you what to say to others. The Work Book and the Watchtower mags dictate the 'thinking' that JW's do. The NWT is written in such a way so as to dictate the GB's way of thinking. The tracts are supposed to 'do the talking' for you. JW's no longer have to think. Because remember, JW congregants are not supposed to have their own opinions. And if they do have their own opinions they are not allowed to express them. 
Outa Here is a great example of how a person can be dictated to and be soooo brainwashed in the worst possible way. 
Just look at this :  But the Governing Body? Well my life depends on recognising who they are 
I would have thought his/her life would depend on how they serve God through Christ. 
 

There is only one solution to the way the Devil is trying his best to run this world. 
Jesus died so that God could put it all right, but God will chose His own time. 
I've said many times that there is not a useable Organisation here on Earth right now for God to use properly. So God would probably have to work on that one. Whether God will 'sort out' the JW Org or build a new Org is not for me to guess. (I leave the guessing to the GB & Co). 
As for humanity, well I think it has a while yet to keep on keeping on. The Earth is still quite useable and no serious damage had been done by nukes. Although many people die, the human race keeps increasing, so it is not the full on disaster that 'science' seems to say it is. There could be another hundred years yet. 
There does not seem to me to be any seriousness in serving God though. Some on here keep comparing the  GB / JW org to the early Christians, but those early Christians gave up everything and had basically nothing. In contrast some pioneers here in the UK will not accept second hand items from people, and they will only buy new. JW's live in luxury in many places compared to the early Christians. I'm not including places like Russia as that situation is totally different, but in UK I know of JW's still having posh houses built for them. So maybe God is wanting people to serve Him more seriously. 

I will always laugh when anyone on here compares the idea of serving God properly with some sort of worldly 'dealings'. 
The only way of comparing serving God properly is with what God has had written as instruction in His written word the Bible. (I presume that God guided not only the writings but also the gathering of the 66 books). 
The reason God commanded us to be in subjection to the "Superior Authorities" is NOT because they are even right most of the time .... but because even the VERY WORST are better than anarchy.
That is obvious, but not so obvious to the Soc /Org, that they couldn't leave that scripture alone. They even had to deliberately change the meaning of it to gain power for themselves. 
Quote "The TRUTH sets us free." Yes true truth would. Or are you caught up in that trick of the Soc/Org's, that using the word truth means they speak truth or teach truth ?  Can you not see the con in that ? The deliberate deception. It is done to work on the emotions / sub conscious or what ever gives people that 'good' feeling. By calling it the 'truth', 'being in the truth', people let down their guard, they start to believe ALL of it. They do not question anything that comes from the Watchtower mags or from the platform.  Add to that, that congregants are told not to have their own opinion and/or not to discuss anything that may differ from 'instructions'. 
HOW MUCH FREEDOM DOES THAT GIVE PEOPLE, BEING DICTATED TO BY THE GB RIGHT DOWN TO THE ELDERS. Being frightened of being d/fed for the slightest thing. Is that the freedom you get from the JW Org ? 
Quote : "Humans are just nasty, selfish and no-good".  You must mix with the wrong crowd James. Oh yes you mix with JW's. 
I get involved in automobilia auctions, I go to classic car shows, I go to vintage motor scooter shows, I spend too much time viewing all sorts of auctions, and the people are great. Very friendly and sociable. In fact I tend to meet up with the same people regularly at auctions and there is no bitterness if I win lots or if they do. 
Your view of humans being nasty, selfish and no good, is just a JW viewpoint to try to frighten people from mixing with 'outsiders'.  But haven't we seen where the trouble really lies ? Inside that JW org. That's where many of the nasty, selfish, no goods are. Including the GB in my opinion. 
Oh by the way, do you honestly think God wants a GB or an Org that is only 50% obedient, or only gets 50% right ? 
 
 

Sorry to disappoint. I usually give up on explaining things concisely at about the time I notice that I am already up to 20 paragraphs.
But I meant that there have already been several pages of explanations in this thread and others, going right back to your original question. The very fact that the GB produces contradictory statements about themselves, which are not based on scripture, that was what made me say that the GB cannot be the same as the FDS. A GB that declares itself to be the FDS is already "publishing a flawed argument" "skating close to the edge" and "in no man's land" if I may borrow some verbiage from Outta Here.
This goes back to a WT quote that Noble Berean provided, back on page 5 or so:
"[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)  
And a similar one here:
*** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life; he does not insist on going by his own views or by other people’s opinions. He is also teachable, willing to be taught by Jehovah. The psalmist David wrote: “[Jehovah] will cause the meek ones to walk in his judicial decision, and he will teach the meek ones his way.”—Psalm 25:9; Proverbs 3:5, 6.
We now see that it has been admitted that the GB have sometimes been advocating or insisting on their own views. Several of these views have been "false" as they have now admitted. It is clear that in some cases these have merely been based on other people's opinions, often their own predecessors on the GB. They have sometimes forgotten to be meek. Although they admit that some of the teachings and direction has been incorrect, they have sometimes forgotten the meekness and humility that should come from these experiences and continue to insist that others should have "complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by . . . the faithful and discreet slave."
Well that is the same as saying that we should have complete confidence in views and opinions that are prone to error, potentially false and uninspired, just because they have been mixed in with truths revealed from Jehovah through his Son, Jesus Christ. 
But with true humility, faithfulness and discretion it doesn't have to be this way.
The GB, as overseers (elders), are reaching out for an oversight position over the extended worldwide congregations, and are therefore reaching out for a fine work. It is a very valuable and useful office of oversight. And through it they can preside over various questions and concerns, while considering input and issues from all over the world. But in any position of privilege or heavy responsibility there is a danger that Jesus clearly warned about. If we take Jesus' words seriously, we will be on the watch for the very examples that Jesus warned about. We know that the GB consider themselves to be in a position much like that of the original 12 apostles, or that of the "NT" Bible writers, and the Bible tells us what such positions can lead to: the desire for control, power, prominence, leadership, and even obedience.
(Matthew 19:27-20:27) . . .Then Peter said in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what, then, will there be for us?” . . .[Jesus answered] you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
30 “But many who are first will be last and the last first. . . .‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ 13 But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us, did you not? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. . . .  Or is your eye envious because I am good?’ 16 In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.” . . .
20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee approached him with her sons, . . . .  “Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.”  . . . 23 He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
24 When the ten others heard about it, they became indignant at the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.
I think there is a tendency for all of us to want to read into the first century congregation a kind of human authority structure among the apostles and older men of Jerusalem that just wasn't there. The apostles remaining in Jerusalem prior to the writing of the "NT" has allready served its purpose, and is not intended as an ongoing model of apostolic succession in the last days. Because we are only human, we think that the hierarchical system under Moses, and therefore the "seat of Moses" was intended to continue into Christian times. We are therefore anxious to see any criticizers as "Korah vs Moses." We don't have the faith that true Christianity can thrive without a group of men wielding authority. (Just as Israel didn't think they could compete with nations around them without a king.)
We tend not to see this wielding of authority as a problem, because MOST of what the GB relays and publishes is perfectly acceptable. But this lax attitude toward what Jesus warned us about can result in a very dangerous situation for Christians. We do not mature as we should to stand on our own, because it's so much easier to just accept humans as leaders, and accept them as vicars of Christ. Paul pointed out the folly of this very attitude toward other humans who think they should be more than what even the "apostles" were, and who want to be more than just faithful and discreet "stewards." They will tend to go beyond the things written; to want honor, and to judge, and to govern.
(1 Corinthians 4:2-10) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal. In fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. But by this I am not proved righteous; the one who examines me is Jehovah. 5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. These men wanted to be "guardians" when Paul indicated that the entire worldwide congregation were their/our guardians:
(1 Corinthians 4:15) . . .For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ. . . (Romans 14:12) . . .So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God. (Romans 14:4) 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand. (Galatians 6:4, 5) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

Only if you mistakenly had faith and confidence that I was telling you the truth, and that I knew what I was talking about.
Fantasies can be disregarded ... if you have discovered and know them to actually be fantasies ... and nobody is threatening to destroy your family if you do not believe them.

I agree with you, Anna, but what is REALLY being discussed now is CREDIBILITY.    
Those that put themselves in the position as God's spokesmen ... delivering "food at the proper time" have a responsibility to deliver good wholesome food at the proper time.
Uncontaminated wholesome food.
Not rocks painted to look like real food.
I have told the story before about years ago when I lived near Lake Jackson Texas, and I saw a Mexican family, obviously starving ... eating grass on the side of the road. I stopped and entreated them to come to my home, and they piled into the back of the pickup truck and drove about 20 miles. When we got to my home, I opened the chain link fence gate, and showed them my luxuriant green lawn, that needed mowing.
That story is not credible ... but I hope it makes the point about good, wholesome food at the proper time.
Had it been a true story, the people I supposedly rescued would have been exploited, and betrayed .... not saved ..... and the "food at the proper time" would have served MY agenda ... only!
 

I suppose there is no need to, unless this understanding of ours became so important to us that we couldn't keep ourselves from acting.
Which brings me to this quote of yours:
I would think that it's an important thing, that direction never truly conflicts with God.  I agree with you about absolute truth, something is either black or white, however, what about this: (one of JTR's favorite images)

 
Perspective has a profound effect in how we see things. When there is a change, I prefer to see it as an "update" brought on by new perspective. I am sure you will agree there is nothing wrong with updates? After all, without "updates" we would still be using a cell phone the size of a brick.
So in summary, I think the most important thing is not the "change" but making sure the "change" is not in conflict with any core principles and "truths" (the cylinder) about God.
 

What name does the WT use for their baptisms?

Yes. And the watchtower has a history on being wrong on MANY topics.
ie: Will the men of Sodom be resurrected?
Yes....Watchtower 7/1879 page 8
No.....Watchtower 6/1/52 page 338
Yes....Watchtower 8/1/65, page 479
No.....Watchtower 6/1/88, page 31
Yes...Live Forever (old Ed.) page 179
No....Live Forever (new Ed.) page 179
Yes...Insight, vol. 2., page 985
No...Revelation book, page 273.
 
6,000 years from Adam ended in A.D. 1872. (Daily Heavenly Manna, inside cover page)
6,000 years of human history ended in 1873.(The Time is at Hand, p.33)
6,000 years of human history ended in 1972.(The Truth Shall Make You Free, p.152, 1943 edition)
6,000 years of human history ended in 1975. (Awake!, October 8th, 1968, page 15).
 

It's a matter of general credibility .... someone that is ALWAYS wrong about such things gets the credibility they deserve from rational people, and faith in their PRESUMABLY good intentions by others.

A good man brings good out of the good treasure of his heart; for out of the heart's abundance the mouth speaks, but if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected and is near to being cursed, and in the end it will be burned.

I agree, but people claiming to represent the words of God are quite sure, and they apparently care a great deal ... and will disfellowship us if we admit we do not believe them.

We do not know what they understood. I suspect their understanding based at best on Dan.9:26 was limited at the time until it actually came to an end. Later after Pentecost some may have had more insight. It does not seem to have been that important to them as an actual time span. Just its certainty and imminence.
Nobody will know what the generation actually really is now until the fat lady sings this time round. Whatever it is, we will know soon enough. Convoluted arguments on pet theories are a waste of time. I don't care when the end actually is. I am just glad it is coming. 

In fact.... we need no personal conscience whatsoever!
Anything not specifically approved .... is forbidden..
...try using unapproved words and extra-magazine phrases and concepts to make a comment at the Watchtower Study, and it will be like someone threw a brick through a plate glass window.
 
 
 

(At this stage, haven't words like GB, organization, and Jehovah become conflated?)
What you're saying here is very true, but does the history of the organization reflect that? The GB has already admitted to giving incorrect direction to its members. Throughout all of these changes, JWs have remained staunchly loyal to the GB in the old thinking and the new.
The GB can hand-wave away their errant direction. I am sure they would say it's direction has never truly conflicted with God. But there aren't variations of the truth -- there is only right and wrong. If a change is made, then that means there was something false with the previous direction. You might see that as an overly critical mindset, but I am only scrutinizing the GB with the same level of scrutiny that they impose on all of us.
Now, I know that there have been JWs that recognized an incorrect doctrine ahead of an "adjustment" by the GB. I say that with certainty, because I have hardcore JW family that experienced this personally. That is why Jackson's comment is highly disingenuous, because JWs have never had the right to act in harmony with their own views. Again, I'll direct you to the organization's comments:
"At the same time, we recognize that our knowledge of God's purpose is not perfect; our understanding has undergone adjustments over the years. Loyal Christians are content to wait on Jehovah for all such refinements." (W04 Feb 15 p.17)
"Some may feel that they can interpret the Bible on their own. However, Jesus has appointed the ‘faithful slave’ to be the only channel for dispensing spiritual food. Since 1919, the glorified Jesus Christ has been using that slave to help his followers understand God’s own Book and heed its directives. By obeying the instructions found in the Bible, we promote cleanness, peace, and unity in the congregation. Each one of us does well to ask himself, ‘Am I loyal to the channel that Jesus is using today?'" (Nov. 2016 WT)
The WT makes it clear that it is not our place to form our own understanding of doctrine. Jackson's statement is illogical from a WT perspective -- that's not how the organization has ever functioned. Direction has always been revealed through the organization since it is "spirit directed" by God. If we have personal doubts, we are instructed to wait for the GB to make an adjustment. At no point do we act on our own understanding. This can never change, or the GB will lose its control over members. Control is of utmost concern to them - that is their chief priority.
 

If you continually change the definitions of words, and people trust you, you can short-circuit even their ability to think rationally.
  "New Light" is stroboscopic, and can give you cognitive epilepsy.

Likely due to weakness of comprehension and appreciation.
"1914", "generation", "Armageddon" carry little in the way of controversy these days, but the importance or not of the Governing Body is obviously a bone of contention with many.
I mean, "1914" has come and gone; the "generation" is as long as it is; "Armageddon"? well, it will come when it comes. What I or any one else believes makes no difference to these as realities. But the Governing Body? Well my life depends on recognising who they are and working along with what they are doing and who they represent so I am happy to have reference to them frequently and a clear understanding of their role. I don't feel inclined to bite the hand that feeds me. Apart from that, I have yet to see a viable alternative.

I will always laugh when anyone on here compares the idea of serving God properly with some sort of worldly 'dealings'. 
The only way of comparing serving God properly is with what God has had written as instruction in His written word the Bible. (I presume that God guided not only the writings but also the gathering of the 66 books). 
The reason God commanded us to be in subjection to the "Superior Authorities" is NOT because they are even right most of the time .... but because even the VERY WORST are better than anarchy.
That is obvious, but not so obvious to the Soc /Org, that they couldn't leave that scripture alone. They even had to deliberately change the meaning of it to gain power for themselves. 
Quote "The TRUTH sets us free." Yes true truth would. Or are you caught up in that trick of the Soc/Org's, that using the word truth means they speak truth or teach truth ?  Can you not see the con in that ? The deliberate deception. It is done to work on the emotions / sub conscious or what ever gives people that 'good' feeling. By calling it the 'truth', 'being in the truth', people let down their guard, they start to believe ALL of it. They do not question anything that comes from the Watchtower mags or from the platform.  Add to that, that congregants are told not to have their own opinion and/or not to discuss anything that may differ from 'instructions'. 
HOW MUCH FREEDOM DOES THAT GIVE PEOPLE, BEING DICTATED TO BY THE GB RIGHT DOWN TO THE ELDERS. Being frightened of being d/fed for the slightest thing. Is that the freedom you get from the JW Org ? 
Quote : "Humans are just nasty, selfish and no-good".  You must mix with the wrong crowd James. Oh yes you mix with JW's. 
I get involved in automobilia auctions, I go to classic car shows, I go to vintage motor scooter shows, I spend too much time viewing all sorts of auctions, and the people are great. Very friendly and sociable. In fact I tend to meet up with the same people regularly at auctions and there is no bitterness if I win lots or if they do. 
Your view of humans being nasty, selfish and no good, is just a JW viewpoint to try to frighten people from mixing with 'outsiders'.  But haven't we seen where the trouble really lies ? Inside that JW org. That's where many of the nasty, selfish, no goods are. Including the GB in my opinion. 
Oh by the way, do you honestly think God wants a GB or an Org that is only 50% obedient, or only gets 50% right ? 
 
 

"Anything that does not kill you will make you stronger". 
Tell it to the victims of Child Sexual Abuse. Tell it to the people who have been shunned by their families.  Tell it to the people that have lost loved ones because the loved ones would not have blood. Tell it to everyone that has been misled and hurt by the W/t / JW / GB et al. 
Things don't make a person stronger, they may show the person their own strength, but many have no strength. If you have strength then be happy with it, but don't take it for granted. Many of us don't have that strength.  

"Anything that does not kill you will make you stronger". 
Tell it to the victims of Child Sexual Abuse. Tell it to the people who have been shunned by their families.  Tell it to the people that have lost loved ones because the loved ones would not have blood. Tell it to everyone that has been misled and hurt by the W/t / JW / GB et al. 
Things don't make a person stronger, they may show the person their own strength, but many have no strength. If you have strength then be happy with it, but don't take it for granted. Many of us don't have that strength.  

I disagree .... you lack the perspective that only time and a LOT of varied experiences can give you.
Jehovah's Witnesses management does a LOT of things wrong, but they also do a lot of things right ... that no one else is doing right.  In the Corporate world, a good executive is one who gets 50% of his decisions right ... and of course WHICH 50% makes all the difference in the world.
Would you quit a job at Microsoft, because every other operating system they release bombs out, and drives everyone nutso?   I would not.
The reason God commanded us to be in subjection to the "Superior Authorities" is NOT because they are even right most of the time .... but because even the VERY WORST are better than anarchy.
The fact that we know Jehovah and Christ as they really are gives us a significant edge in having a quiet, peaceful, and prosperous life.
The TRUTH sets us free.
Humans are just nasty, selfish and no-good, so stuff ALWAYS gets lost, in translation.
I don't bitch and moan about what the Catholics, Baptists, etc., ad nauseum do or do not do, because they are a lost cause, and cannot reform.
My sincere hope is that we, do.
 
 

"Anything that does not kill you will make you stronger". 
Tell it to the victims of Child Sexual Abuse. Tell it to the people who have been shunned by their families.  Tell it to the people that have lost loved ones because the loved ones would not have blood. Tell it to everyone that has been misled and hurt by the W/t / JW / GB et al. 
Things don't make a person stronger, they may show the person their own strength, but many have no strength. If you have strength then be happy with it, but don't take it for granted. Many of us don't have that strength.