JOHN BUTLER

Aren’t you in Britain? Don’t you have some exotic cars there that I could buy? What was the last auto that James Bond tooled around in?
My current project is to go through Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia paragraph by paragraph to re-examine wording. I have already done so to (mostly) fix a self-devised system of punctuation. 
That book has caused me more trouble than my other three put together, mostly because of the manner in which it was written.
Once I have completed the task, I will look into releasing it on audio, as an author-read narrator. 
There are many many things that I am not good at, in fact, almost everything. However, public reading is something that I am good at. 

@TrueTomHarley  You certainly are an author of fairy tales and you are good at it too. Keep it up please it gives me plenty to laugh at after a morning of hard work. I'm back at that big house again doing some physical work as a favour to its owner. Well I'm totally baffled spiritually, out of the frying pan and into the fire it seems. BUT staying in the frying pan would  have got me cooked that's for sure. So I'm thinking I might as well be helpful in some way to other people, as it seems I cannot help myself right now. 
BUT. Lets quote your words :- 
What surprises me as I go through the sequential schedule of Bible reading, now focused on the letters of Paul, is how well they anticipate current “anti-cultist” complaints of being brainwashed, misled, duped, and so forth. What would appear to be a brand new scenario is just history recycled—put on steroids by modern viral methods of communication. Given that the following was said then, when the only communication was word-of-mouth, it is not at all surprising that it would be so prolific today:
OK. Catholics could say the same,  and any other 'brand' of Christian.  Mormons maybe. However you are pretending that it is the same, But it isn't. 
“We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one,” says the apostle at 2 Corinthians 7:2, as though the accusation of those things was commonplace.
“Nevertheless, you say, I was “crafty” and I caught you “by trickery,” he says again at 2 Corinthians 12:16. For sure, Solomon had a point: “There is nothing new under the sun.” (Eccles 1:9)
The Bible Students / GB / JW Org / W/t cannot truthfully say the above.  Promising Armageddon in 1914, suggesting Armageddon in 1975,  saying 'Millions now living will never die' (just as the Devil told Eve she would not die), was crafty, trickery, and the continued rumours that Armageddon is 'so close' and 'that only those inside the JW Org will be saved', when at the same time a member of the Governing Body said that 'they might not be the only channel of communication God is using', well you work it out for yourself.  
They protest another sort of discipline as well. “Just as I encouraged you to stay in Ephesus when I was about to go to Macedonia, so I do now, in order for you to command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith.” 
False stories, um, 'this generation will not pass away', oh dear it didn't happen. So make up another story, the generation isn't one generation , it's two overlapping generations. 
Do “apostates” proliferate today, as though something new? 
You may have to break this down a bit Tom. First of all it depends what YOU mean as an apostate. Are you talking about those who have found fault with the GB and JW Org / W/t ? If so you cannot truly compare it to first century Christians.  In the first century it would probably have been the Jews that were used to living under Law and Jewish customs. But now you are comparing that with ex-JW's that are used to living under the JW rules. The early Christian way was a totally new way of living to the Jews. But if you are calling ex-JW's apostates then those ex-JW's know what life is like as a JW. Totally different circumstances. Why ? Because ex-JWs are looking at the GB / JWOrg / W/t and comparing it to God's written word the Bible / Bible standards. 
Let's go back to this :- 
“We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one,” says the apostle at 2 Corinthians 7:2,  
I only have to write three letters here . C, S, A.  Tom and others you KNOW that the GB / JW Org / W/t is in trouble in, Australia, America, Canada, UK, Netherlands, and I'm probably not completely up to date on any others.  Now if only one third of the accusations are true that is still a lot of Pedophilia in the JW Org, and still a lot of mishandling of 'justice for victims' from a scriptural viewpoint. Something about 'looking after widows and orphans' etc.... 
We could mention also about baptism and how the JW Org makes it more than just confirming dedication to God through Christ, but includes becoming part of the 'club' and obeying GB rules. (But that is a totally different topic). 
Having their mind on earthly things” is where its at today, and there are endless people who obsess over petty freedoms at the expense of totally missing the real ones
Petty freedoms, but why petty restrictions ?  The suit and tie, the Beard problem. Why put in place restrictions that are TOTALLY NOT SCRIPTURAL ?  And who gives authority to those that make these petty restrictions ?  That brings us back once again to this :- 
“We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one,” says the apostle at 2 Corinthians 7:2
The GB have stolen the recognition that ALL Anointed are the Faithful and Discreet Slave class. The GB have exalted themselves above the other Anointed, Luke 14, v11....  The GB have strongly hinted at the instruction that the rest of the Anointed should not get in touch with each others , but should remain in subjection to the GB. 
So here I have given proof that what Paul speaks/writes about is in no way similar to the problems in the JW Org today. 
The ones that Tom calls apostates will vary as all people are individuals. But Tom seems to need to think that apostates have deserted God and Christ. No Tom, many have just woken up to the falseness of the GB and it's two orgs. 
Once again I will end by saying that God may totally cleanse the JW Org and then use it, or God may start a new organisation of truthful Anointed ones. 
Sorry, I forgot one of the most important points too. Tom is comparing totally UNINSPIRED MEN therefore leading an uninspired organisation, to the Early Christian organisation which was full of INSPIRED MEN INCLUDING PAUL. 

The Witness organization cannot possibly be as bad as you charge, for the Devil is not that bad. You are a loon, John, wildly overstating all of your points, substantial or trivial, implacable to any persuasion to back down even a little on any of them. Nothing shows more clearly.
More later.

What surprises me as I go through the sequential schedule of Bible reading, now focused on the letters of Paul, is how well they anticipate current “anti-cultist” complaints of being brainwashed, misled, duped, and so forth. What would appear to be a brand new scenario is just history recycled—put on steroids by modern viral methods of communication. Given that the following was said then, when the only communication was word-of-mouth, it is not at all surprising that it would be so prolific today:
“We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one,” says the apostle at 2 Corinthians 7:2, as though the accusation of those things was commonplace.
“Nevertheless, you say, I was “crafty” and I caught you “by trickery,” he says again at 2 Corinthians 12:16. For sure, Solomon had a point: “There is nothing new under the sun.” (Eccles 1:9)
Do “apostates” proliferate today, as though something new? It’s the oldest game in town. “For there are many—I used to mention them often but now I mention them also with weeping—who are walking as enemies of the torture stake of the Christ. Their end is destruction, and their god is their belly, and their glory is really their shame, and they have their minds on earthly things.” (Philippians 3:18-19)
”Having their mind on earthly things” is where its at today, and there are endless people who obsess over petty freedoms at the expense of totally missing the real ones. Their “critical thinking” has sold them down the river; they have shipwrecked whatever faith they once had—just like Paul says about two actual malcontents in the first century, when he advised Timothy to “go on waging the fine warfare, holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside, resulting in the shipwreck of their faith.  Hymenaeus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 3:18-19)
What exactly is it to be “handed over to Satan?” The only other use of the expression (1 Corinthians 5:5) makes clear that it is expulsion from the congregation. Today their counterparts on social media protest loudly that discipline.
They protest another sort of discipline as well. “Just as I encouraged you to stay in Ephesus when I was about to go to Macedonia, so I do now, in order for you to command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith.” Today the ones so “commanded” would hop on social media to rail that you can’t even breathe a word different from the tyrannical men on top to be muzzled at first transgression, and ejected at second.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult if and only if the Bible is a cult manual. Nobody has apostates like Jehovah’s Witnesses. Nobody has apostates more prolific, more determined, and in some cases they seem almost deranged—I mean, if someone so much as farts at Bethel, there is one of these yo-yos to start a thread on it, which is not ignored, but is joined in by countless persons in sympathy, some of whom are coherent and some of whom are pure loons.
It is as it should be. We should be proud of our apostates. Nobody else has anyone like them. What if they did not exist? Would you not have to wonder why? No writer of the New Testament fails to deal with them. What if there were no mention of them today? Would it not indicate that the faith had so strayed from its roots to embrace contemporary thinking that there was little to apostatize from?
I will admit that the only apostates that interest me are the ones that go atheist, which partly accounts for my take on the 2 Thessalonians “Man of Lawlessness.” Having learned the man-made origins of Trinity and the immortal soul, and having come to appreciate the damage these teachings do to to a close relationship with God, can one really go back to them? Often the “believing” apostates do not—they simply become ambiguous on such doctrines, thinking that they hardly matter—to each his own. Essentially, they want to retain God, but they acquiesce to the greater world molding their thinking as to outlook, goals, and morals. They want to “throw off all restraint” and in no time at all, they have lost whatever unity they once had. When they can be distracted from attacking their former roots on social media, they are to found lambasting each other over differences in matters scientific, medical, climate, politics, etc.
 
 
 
 

This is a statement implying uncertainty in the accuracy of what follows. This is no way to present the accusatory remarks that you make. It shows that at best they are only your opinion and that you yourself have doubt in their validity.
How different from the example we have been set. 

Poor old @TrueTomHarley has to try to group people together. Even though he adds 'as individuals', he still starts with a group of people all of one type. 
I don't know Srecko's personal information and I would not ask him, but as for me, I have a wife and a son that live 'at home' with me. They are enough company for me thanks. I do not need to surround myself at home or online with a group of people.
I've just bought myself a new MP3 player with the biggest 'cans' (headphones) I could get, and I go walking along the riverside and then along the seafront all on my own. I walk past people as if they are just obstructions, I dodge round them all. People here in the UK are also fat and they get in the way, but I squeeze my slim body past them all.  
As for the idea that "Witnesses as a people have a much greater diversity of friends as regards race, social-economic, nationality, & educational letters, then do non-Witnesses."   That is probably wishful thinking. 
Witnesses do not seem to actually have any friends, just brothers and sisters. A friend is someone that can be relied upon for support and help, no matter what the circumstances. Not so with the bro's and sis, who desert people at the slightest whim. 
The fact that the JW Org is earthwide does not make all those people your friends. That's a bit like having a million friends on Facebook, they are not real friends. 
Poor Tom is still living in that dream world of his, and he won't back down, which is funny as he condemned me for not backing down on things. 
If you treat things as typical patterns it is because you don't want to 'see' the individual.  You are frightened to think of individuals having a mind and thoughts of their own, because JW's are not allowed to have a mind and thoughts of their own. 
 

This had become a kind of cliche for experiences given from the assemblies. You would always hear someone say that they were learning about the truth, but that they had a beard and didn't like to dress in a suit and tie . . . and then . . . voila! . . . one day this person will show up at the Hall, and to everyone's surprise . . . he will be clean-shaven. The audience would even clap at this point, as if it were a bigger turning point than their baptism.
Wow brainwashing at its best. 
Um, Jesus said about cleaning the inside of the bowl or dish first. Shaving and putting on a suit and tie mean nothing, it just impresses naive people.
It matter not if a person wears and open neck shirt and casual smart trousers. And it matters not if a man has a beard. And in fact it matters not if a lady wears trousers designed for ladies, because they are not men's clothing. Lots of ladies here in UK congregations now wear leggings under dresses in fact.   
But in the JW Org its all about dictatorship. It's not about showing God, as God sees into your heart. It's all about pleasing the Elders and the higher ups.. 

...
 

When we find differences and similarity of this two laws (God's and GB's) and to be able to make distinction about what authority supports and stand behind each "laws", and to be able to give resistance to human "laws", but on other hand to respect Higher Law, examples will be visible to us. :))   

"Light get Brighter" only for WT Society Leaders in Bethel, and stopped at Bethel Place. Congregations was left to be in "Darkness Light" of  previous doctrinal standpoint. :)))))   
Question is: Why would God want for minority of His people to know "The Truth" and to be able and in position to offer "unspoiled sacrifice, sacrifice without blame", ...... but for majority of His Flock He don't care and left them to be "unclean" spiritually and physically?? 
Irrational and illogical God? Or people can not understand His strange instructions ....from human standpoint of view ? 
Or, all is about Human Leadership who playing games/experiments with life of people/members/followers.

Make your excuses for them if it pleases you @Anna 
They did not ban it at first as it would have lost them many members and that would have lost them many $$$$$$. 
It's all about the money and the power. They were wise enough to wait, but they knew in the late 1800's.
How gullible are you @Anna ? 
 
 

In Texas, there was the sometimes used defense "But yer Honor ... he NEEDED killin' !
Personal preference .....

Thank you. It shows me a few important things, although Russell personally thought smoking was a filthy habit, had a "dim" view of it , and didn't think it brought God any glory, he did not insist on his personal opinion, banning others from smoking. Then later in 1935 the WT called it a filthy weed and banned it in Bethel but did not try to impose this on the congregations. It was obviously still not thought of as something worthy of disfellowshipping until 1973. So, they didn't know it was totally wrong until the 70's, not the 1800's as you suggested.
The same thing with Christmas.

In other words, I was right. Why all the mock outrage?
And I am right with Srecko, too. Almost certainly.

Ok, Ok .... just calm down, i wished to upset you ...but not so much :))))

Poor old @TrueTomHarley has to try to group people together. Even though he adds 'as individuals', he still starts with a group of people all of one type. 
I don't know Srecko's personal information and I would not ask him, but as for me, I have a wife and a son that live 'at home' with me. They are enough company for me thanks. I do not need to surround myself at home or online with a group of people.
I've just bought myself a new MP3 player with the biggest 'cans' (headphones) I could get, and I go walking along the riverside and then along the seafront all on my own. I walk past people as if they are just obstructions, I dodge round them all. People here in the UK are also fat and they get in the way, but I squeeze my slim body past them all.  
As for the idea that "Witnesses as a people have a much greater diversity of friends as regards race, social-economic, nationality, & educational letters, then do non-Witnesses."   That is probably wishful thinking. 
Witnesses do not seem to actually have any friends, just brothers and sisters. A friend is someone that can be relied upon for support and help, no matter what the circumstances. Not so with the bro's and sis, who desert people at the slightest whim. 
The fact that the JW Org is earthwide does not make all those people your friends. That's a bit like having a million friends on Facebook, they are not real friends. 
Poor Tom is still living in that dream world of his, and he won't back down, which is funny as he condemned me for not backing down on things. 
If you treat things as typical patterns it is because you don't want to 'see' the individual.  You are frightened to think of individuals having a mind and thoughts of their own, because JW's are not allowed to have a mind and thoughts of their own. 
 

Poor old @TrueTomHarley has to try to group people together. Even though he adds 'as individuals', he still starts with a group of people all of one type. 
I don't know Srecko's personal information and I would not ask him, but as for me, I have a wife and a son that live 'at home' with me. They are enough company for me thanks. I do not need to surround myself at home or online with a group of people.
I've just bought myself a new MP3 player with the biggest 'cans' (headphones) I could get, and I go walking along the riverside and then along the seafront all on my own. I walk past people as if they are just obstructions, I dodge round them all. People here in the UK are also fat and they get in the way, but I squeeze my slim body past them all.  
As for the idea that "Witnesses as a people have a much greater diversity of friends as regards race, social-economic, nationality, & educational letters, then do non-Witnesses."   That is probably wishful thinking. 
Witnesses do not seem to actually have any friends, just brothers and sisters. A friend is someone that can be relied upon for support and help, no matter what the circumstances. Not so with the bro's and sis, who desert people at the slightest whim. 
The fact that the JW Org is earthwide does not make all those people your friends. That's a bit like having a million friends on Facebook, they are not real friends. 
Poor Tom is still living in that dream world of his, and he won't back down, which is funny as he condemned me for not backing down on things. 
If you treat things as typical patterns it is because you don't want to 'see' the individual.  You are frightened to think of individuals having a mind and thoughts of their own, because JW's are not allowed to have a mind and thoughts of their own. 
 

What in the world is wrong with it? “Typical patterns” can be discerned by just keeping ones eyes opened.
You don’t need “investigative journalism,” for example, to voice that Americans are, as a people, overweight. Even checking your “critical thinking” at the door,  one can come up with that observation. What I have done is parallel.
I also plainly said that you as an individual didn’t necessarily fit that “typical pattern.”
Witnesses as a people have a much greater diversity of friends as regards race, social-economic, nationality, & educational letters, then do non-Witnesses. It doesn’t mean that there will be not found many individuals of both groups who do not fit the typical pattern.
I don’t back down on this one even a bit. It is plainly true.

This had become a kind of cliche for experiences given from the assemblies. You would always hear someone say that they were learning about the truth, but that they had a beard and didn't like to dress in a suit and tie . . . and then . . . voila! . . . one day this person will show up at the Hall, and to everyone's surprise . . . he will be clean-shaven. The audience would even clap at this point, as if it were a bigger turning point than their baptism.
Wow brainwashing at its best. 
Um, Jesus said about cleaning the inside of the bowl or dish first. Shaving and putting on a suit and tie mean nothing, it just impresses naive people.
It matter not if a person wears and open neck shirt and casual smart trousers. And it matters not if a man has a beard. And in fact it matters not if a lady wears trousers designed for ladies, because they are not men's clothing. Lots of ladies here in UK congregations now wear leggings under dresses in fact.   
But in the JW Org its all about dictatorship. It's not about showing God, as God sees into your heart. It's all about pleasing the Elders and the higher ups.. 

@TrueTomHarley  They could always do it, but they might come in for counsel and be kept from what Witnesses call “privileges”—MS, elder, pioneer, and so forth.
OK, let's look at this one sentence which Tom seems to think is casually funny. 
Let's start with the problem of Elders withholding 'privileges' due to their personal preferences. This is not in order of importance. 
1. It is not showing Christian love.
2. it is going beyond the things written, as there is NO scriptural basis for it. .
3. It is a cause for stumbling. 
4. It would be restricting the Preaching of the Good News for No good reason. 
5. It would be taking over the conscience of another person, dictating to them though for no good reason.
6. It would be ignoring scripture, such as the one about the  straw and the rafter. And the oneat Luke 17 v 1&2 
Now you may say that the Edler is acting on instructions from higher up, in which case it becomes more serious because those higher up should be more spiritually mature and able to see things with a good Christian attitude and conscience. 
 

Glurp! And I thought the British were "conservative"! (In their views).

Regarding tobacco : God's kingdom Rules Page 111 para 12 & 13  And Smoking banned in 1973
Regarding christmas :   God's Kingdom Rules  page 101 para 8  & page 102 para 9 
@Anna i hope this is to your satisfaction. 

Ok be picky if you like. They allowed smoking until 1970. Well 1973 actually it seems. 

30 years? ...this is funny i think. Issue was from Judge Rutherford era who was against Russell influence on Society. After Russell dead and after he prevailed in taking Presidency, he introducing changes (good or bad .. it is for Historians to describe) One of them is - NO beard! :))
Thanks for such deep, contemplative inspection of other people spirit and soul :))))  In just two sentences you done amazing job. Investigative Journalism?    

I was wondering what she was pointing at