AllenSmith34

Your answer:
I certainly don't claim to understand everything about Russell's ideology. I'm actually not even insisting that he erred in judgment. He may very well be right when he claimed that the great crowd of Revelation 7:14 will be in heaven. Our own current teaching on that particular verse could change. Of course, this would not change the Scriptural fact that a great crowd of people would survive the great tribulation and live on earth. And it would not change the fact that Russell also knew --from places outside this particular verse-- that there would be a great crowd of people on earth, which you and I already accept.
But it makes no sense for you to complain about a claim that Russell might have erred if you also admit that there was a time when he didn't have all the facts and would only eventually receive God's guidance in certain matters. I'm sure that you yourself would also admit that he might have erred in judgment before having all the facts. But you haven't been clear if this means that his "initial" judgment was wrong and he eventually came around to seeing that the "great crowd" would NOT be in heaven, or if he never believed what he said, and/or meant something different all along.
Neither choice would explain why Rutherford also believed the "great crowd" would be in heaven . This was something Rutherford believed up until at least 1933, and probably up until closer to 1935.
I'd be happy to change my opinion about what Russell said, if you could show the evidence that he meant something else, or didn't mean what he said, or changed his opinion on this matter over time. That's not just for you, but for anyone who can show any evidence.
Based on years of interaction, I have a feeling that you dig in your heels and insist on making claims without evidence because you seem anxious to prove your own superior knowledge about Russell and the Bible Students. On certain points, I think you have provided valuable references and resources. On this point however, it's not just Russell's own words you are up against, but you are also opposing the more current understanding of the Watchtower when the beliefs of Russell and the Bible Students are reviewed:
*** w64 12/1 p. 724 Out of the Tombs to a “Resurrection of Life” ***
For many years Christian Bible students understood the “resurrection of life” to include (1) the church or congregation of the 144,000 joint heirs of Christ, and (2) an unnumbered “great company” of spiritual Christians not included in the 144,000 but serving under them in heaven I think you've seen evidence that the Watchtower is correct here, and that your claim is incorrect. Bible Students held this belief from as far back as the 1880 Watchtower, and put it in print as recently as 1933. I didn't double-check the Watchtowers of this period, but I see it in Vindication (1932) and Preparation (1933). (When the Jonadab class was still considered separate from the "great multitude.") It's possible that it was even repeated up until the doctrine was changed in 1935.
Here's a mention of that in 2003 and elsewhere:
*** w03 2/15 p. 19 par. 9 What Does the Lord’s Evening Meal Mean to You? ***
But on May 31, 1935, in a discourse given at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., it was Scripturally explained that the “great crowd” (“great multitude,” King James Version) refers to the “other sheep” who live during the time of the end. (John 10:16) After that convention, some who had previously partaken of the Memorial emblems stopped partaking because they realized that their hope was earthly, not heavenly. *** w98 2/15 p. 20 par. 8 Glorious Freedom Soon for the Children of God ***
In 1935 the “great multitude,” or “great crowd”—formerly thought to be a secondary spiritual class that would be “companions” of the bride of Christ in heaven *** w95 2/1 p. 13 par. 16 A Great Crowd of True Worshipers—From Where Have They Come? ***
For a time Jehovah’s servants believed that the great multitude (or, great crowd) of Revelation 7:9, 10 . . . Because the Bible says that they are “standing before the throne,” it was thought that they would be in heaven, not on thrones, ruling as joint heirs with Christ, but in a secondary place in front of the throne. They were viewed as less faithful Christians, ones who did not show a spirit of true self-sacrifice. In 1935 that view was corrected. You said that following a quote from Volume 2 of "SiS" The Time is at Hand. Unfortunately, that quote and that book also does not support your opposition to Russell's clear statements, and your opposition to the Watchtower's more recent statements quoted above. That book was written when Watch Tower publications were still consistent that both the 144,000 and the "great multitude" would go to heaven. 
After this you quoted quite a few things from Volume 3 of "SiS" Thy Kingdom Come, especially the portions about the wheat and tares. If you read more of Russell's words on the subject you will see that the portion you quoted was not relevant to his understanding of Revelation 7:9-17. Russell did have a confused belief about the tares, but this was necessary because if you read the contemporary Watch Tower articles on the subject you will see that he actually did tie the tares to other Christian groups and religions of Christendom, and he therefore had to try to remove the idea that being "burnt in the fire" referred to their destruction. After all these "burnt" ones were still going to heaven in Russell's view. Watch carefully how Russell managed this amazing feat, in the same book you quoted, Thy Kingdom Come:
Is not this a most remarkable agreement between this stone "Witness" and the Bible? The dates, October, 1874, and October, 1881, are exact, while the date 1910, though not furnished in the Scriptures, seems more than a reasonable one for some important event in the Church's experience and final testing, while A.D. 1914 is apparently well-defined as its close, after which the world's greatest trouble is due, in which some of the "great multitude" may have a share. And in this connection let us remember that this date limit--A.D. 1914--may not only witness the completion of the selection and trial and glorification of the entire body of Christ, but it may also witness the purifying of some of that larger company of consecrated believers who, through fear and faint-heartedness, failed to render acceptable sacrifices to God, and who therefore became more or less contaminated with the world's ideas and ways. Some of these, before the end of this period, may come up out of the great tribulation. Many such are now being closely bound in with the various bundles of tares for the burning; and not until the fiery trouble of the latter end of the harvest period shall burn the binding cords of Babylon's bondage shall these be able to make their escape--"saved so as by fire." They must see the utter wreck of Great Babylon and receive some measure of her plagues. The four years from 1910 to the end of 1914, indicated thus in the Great Pyramid, will doubtless be a time of "fiery trial" upon the Church  . . . What Russell did here, of course, was to replace the fiery destruction of the tares (weeds) with the idea that these actually represented the place from which the "great multitude" would be saved from. The "fire" became a time of "fiery trial" with a purifying effect. It becomes 4 years of a great tribulation (from about 1910 to 1914) that would come on the Church. The "great multitude" would be saved out of this "great tribulation." This fire would evidently also burn some of the tares, but notice how he turns the focus of that fire to purification and salvation: "burn the binding cords of Babylon's bondage" and being "saved so as by fire" and "the purifying of some of that larger company." This particular sleight-of-hand interpretation was soon dropped from Russell's teachings, and the tares began to refer only to those fit for destruction, while the less worthy "great multitude" continued to be seen as having a heavenly destination. (See the full article from the February 1916 Watch Tower, for example, quoted in a previous post.) 
Understanding who Russell referred to doesn't have to fail modern readers. There are people who can even read Shakespeare, or the KJV of the 17th century and understand it. Reading Russell's English is relatively straightforward compared to older English.
I hate to have to point it out again, but I get the feeling you are doing something that you have become infamous for doing in the past. Your name has become almost synonymous with opposing some small bit of truth that shouldn't even matter that much in the long run. And then when you are shown that you are opposing the evidence, and even opposing the Watchtower in this case, you dig in your heels and start going on about things that were not really related to the question. And another favorite tactic, apparently, is to copy quotes from somewhere that might seem relevant and might make some people believe that you found "evidence" you were right. Perhaps it even convinces some people. But it's very difficult for me to see how you can look at evidence of something and just oppose it or deny it without responding to the evidence and without giving any counter-evidence.

I think I am confident the people in Sodom and Gomorrah, Judas, and others sinning against the holy spirit,  were already judged by God and have undergone eternal destruction.  See my comment above.  Others may wish to comment on people committing suicide, etc.

My understanding from reading the Bible and Bible publications provided is that those who do not cooperate with the Kingdom government after Armageddon (resurrected ones) will be cut off. If they reach the end of the 1000-year reign it is believed that they would have been healed by the King-Priest  and his 144000 associate king-priests and have become perfect.  They would be destroyed only if they fail the final test. (Rev 20)  
Righteous ones (survivors and those who get a resurrection to life) will most likely continue to be righteous in an environment free of Satan's influence if they did so in the former life with him around.  But they will have to be tested after attaining to perfection. 
See scriptures below, and comment on how they relate to your statement above.
"(Isaiah 26:10) Even if the wicked is shown favor, He will not learn righteousness. Even in the land of uprightness he will act wickedly, And he will not see the majesty of Jehovah."                     
(Resurrected unrighteous ones would be given the opportunity in the new system to see the majesty of Jehovah - those not seeing will have proved to be wicked and will disappear from the earth)
"(Isaiah 65:20) “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days, Nor an old man who fails to live out his days. For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy, And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age. "                            
(No one will be disadvantaged by hunger, sickness, deformity, disease, short life span, etc.  Will live healthy lives and afforded ample time (lifespan) and opportunity to learn about Jehovah and will be expected to transform their lives according to Jehovah's will (see the eminence of Jehovah's way of doing things).  Those  who continue to love sin, will be cursed/cut off.
This sabbath period of 1000 years will be for learning about Jehovah (scrolls opened) not the practising of sin.  All the scriptures mentioned by AllenSmith pertain to things people choose to do.   So I don't believe there will be any big group of people sailing along and enjoying the Paradise and not acting in harmony with the expectation for them, after they are taught. I believe they will be taken out of the earth, once they get ample knowledge of Jehovah's requirements.   
Choosing was always connected with  getting God's approval.  As we learned in our meeting this week, Jehovah draws us but he doesn't force us.  Deut 30:19,20.  All will have to show whether they are on Jehovah's side by their choices.
Why all who survive to the end of the thousand years will have to be tested:  What the final test will do for those who have been obedient up to the end of the the 1000 years will be to test their fitness for Jehovah granting them eternal life after Jesus would have healed and uplifted them.   Adam had that test while perfect and he failed it; all perfected people then would also have that test.  Satan would be used to test their motive for serving Jehovah.  (On every occasion where we invite people to enjoy themselves, there are always those who come along for the food and the entertainment, not really out of appreciation for the host.  Even in Jesus' time on the earth when large crowds were following him and he fed them, his disciples wanted to understand what he was saying but lots of people were satisfied with the literal bread, and also the cures,  and he detected it, and he told them so. They were not interested in spiritual things. ) Also Jehovah would want to ensure that peace and security would be permanent in the earth. He will eliminate those whose heart is not complete toward Him and who might possibly cause danger in the future. Satan would see to it that any rebellious tendency dormant in their hearts is shown up. 
 
Even this statement bears out the fact that people will be expected to act now and in the future paradise.
 

The previous answers have much merit. It can also be summed up like this:
(Genesis 18:25-28) . . .It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?” 26 Then Jehovah said: “If I find in Sodʹom 50 righteous men in the city, I will pardon the whole place for their sake.” 27 But Abraham again responded: “Please, here I have presumed to speak to Jehovah, whereas I am dust and ashes. 28 Suppose the 50 righteous should lack five. Because of the five will you destroy the whole city?” To this he said: “I will not destroy it if I find there 45.”
We can safely leave the details and final decisions  about certain groups to Jehovah.  We must not presume to speak for him above what he has already said.  He will always do what is right. Every detail cannot be written down (John 21:25), but generally all the guidelines are clear (Ps 11:4-7; Ps 15:1-7).
(Isaiah 55:9) . . .For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Deuteronomy 32:4)  4 The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he.
(Malachi 3:6) “For I am Jehovah; I do not change. And you are sons of Jacob; you have not yet come to your finish.
 
 

 

 

Stay focused, you are being asked right now. Everyone knows what temptation is and when and where such things take place in the Bible, for instance, Eve, Joseph, David, etc with examples being negative and or positive, Jesus himself had been tempted by the Devil, but the Son of the true God prevailed, even uttering the Law of what is written.
That being said, what you have stated still does not answer the question.
If you are going about the word itself and or anything regarding Temptation, why bring up Luke 22:36-38 in the first place and or Peter? The verse and references even tells you that
[1] An act of injustice has been done [2] the Disciples themselves knows of the injustice when they came to take Jesus away, Peter included [3] Before anything could be done prior to the arrest of Jesus, he taught the disciples a vital lesson. I'll ask you again, in simple terms, where are you drawing temptation from?
Symbolic in terms of lesson professed by Jesus, however the action done by Peter is also literal. Peter himself did what he did because he himself knew what was being done was an act of injustice. For instance, I can lie to the police and say you are a thief, as well as a violent person, anything to get you arrested when such is  untrue, the police goes to your home and apprehends you, and any relative of yours will say and or do something to prevent what is going on, but what is done is done until real justice is done, since I brought up the lie, I will be held accountable in this example.
Back to the passage at hand. The disciples saw and was in direct line of sight of the angry mob who came to take Jesus away, and they suggested and asked if they should fight, better didn't wait around to find out and took action, he acted. With a sword in hand, he took aim at one of the people among the mob and the result was the cutting off one man’s ear with a single sword stroke, Peter's intent was to do some real damage (mind you, he's a fisherman who is capable of basic swordplay), but he was stopped, reproved by Jesus, he [Jesus] said to him "Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Unlike the others, Peter had soon abandoned Jesus, he thereafter followed the mob from a distance, apparently torn between fear for his own life and his deep concern as to what would happen to friend and teacher, Jesus.
As we can see, nothing regarding temptation was at play here.
I believe you have been corrected on this before and even given some examples, other than that, it has nothing to the passage in question, let alone nothing to do with temptation regarding the arresting of Jesus.
This is correct. The Jehovah's Witnesses, as do may have omitted the verses from the Bible and yet people attack anyone with a revised version that omits such verses are often attacked and or ridiculed. Jehovah's Witnesses/Bible Students use to use the KJV Bible, but never have they made use of the spurious text. Other Christians as well as Muslims, who take Bible Hermeneutics seriously, also avoid using spurious text.
Also Biblehub and Gateway are websites that you can checkout to see what is omitted and what is not.
The King James Version (KJV and or NKJV) of the Bible, and or anything in regards to Textus Receptus and or the TR 1245. Surprisingly one of the few things I agree with you on - a bit rare compared to your friend who has no idea what difference is there in the interlinear Bibles, of which he/she has been corrected on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_verses_not_included_in_modern_English_translations#John_7:53-8:11 I myself, personally, do not like the changes and or spurious text from the KJV, hence why I do not use it otherwise it would cause confusion. If anything some draw example from some verses and or passages.
That being said, I have always been critical of the KJV and or anything in relation with TR1245. Although I have a lot to learn still, this is among the basic things hat people should be aware of. My only great issue is with people who confuse Jesus for God, or saying the Holy Spirit is a separate being, and these same people who back up such doctrine with spurious text and or passages, as well as Bible Canons are are false - such things irks me and I will speak critically.

And probably a rather soft launch of it within the organisation as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that despite this informative document recently made available to download in several languages on the JW website, there is not too much of a mention of it by any of the opposers and "campaigners" against child abuse in the JW organization.
Here is the entire document:
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES’ SCRIPTURALLY BASED POSITION ON CHILD PROTECTION
Definitions: Child abuse may include neglect, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or emotional abuse.
Child sexual abuse is a perversion and generally includes one or more of the following: sexual inter-course with a child; oral or anal sex with a child; fondling the genitals, breasts, or buttocks of a child; voyeurism of a child; indecent exposure to a child; or soliciting a child for sexual conduct. It may include sexting with a minor or showing pornography to a minor.
In this document, references to parents apply equally to legal guardians or other persons who hold pa-rental responsibility for a minor.
1. Children are a sacred trust, “an inheritance from Jehovah.”—Psalm 127:3.
2. The protection of children is of utmost concern and importance to all Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is in harmony with the long-standing and widely published Scripturally based position of Jehovah’s Witnesses, as reflected in the references at the end of this document, which are all published on jw.org.
3. Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor child abuse and view it as a crime. (Romans 12:9) We recognize that the authorities are responsible for addressing such crimes. (Romans 13:1-4) The elders do not shield any perpetrator of child abuse from the authorities.
4. In all cases, victims and their parents have the right to report an accusation of child abuse to the authorities. Therefore, victims, their parents, or anyone else who reports such an accusation to the elders are clearly informed by the elders that they have the right to report the matter to the authorities. Elders do not criticize anyone who chooses to make such a report.—Galatians 6:5.
5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1) Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or there is some other valid reason. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the other parent.
6. Parents have the primary responsibility for the protection, safety, and instruction of their children. Therefore, parents who are members of the congregation are encouraged to be vigilant in exercising their responsibility at all times and to do the following:
• Have direct and active involvement in their children’s lives.
• Educate themselves and their children about child abuse.
• Encourage, promote, and maintain regular communication with their children. —Deuteronomy 6:6, 7; Proverbs 22:3.
Jehovah’s Witnesses publish an abundance of Bible-based information to assist parents to fulfill their responsibility to protect and instruct their children.—See the references at the end of this document.
 7. Congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses do not separate children from their parents for the purpose of instruction or other activities. (Ephesians 6:4) For example, our congregations do not provide or sponsor orphanages, Sunday schools, sports clubs, day-care centers, youth groups, or other activi-ties that separate children from their parents.
8. Elders strive to treat victims of child abuse with compassion, understanding, and kindness. (Colossians 3:12) As spiritual counselors, the elders endeavor to listen carefully and empathetically to victims and to console them. (Proverbs 21:13; Isaiah 32:1, 2; 1 Thessalonians 5:14; James 1:19) Victims and their families may decide to consult a mental-health professional. This is a personal decision.
9. Elders never require victims of child abuse to present their accusation in the presence of the alleged abuser. However, victims who are now adults may do so, if they wish. In addition, victims can be accompanied by a confidant of either gender for moral support when presenting their accusation to the elders. If a victim prefers, the accusation can be submitted in the form of a written statement.
10. Child abuse is a serious sin. If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter.—Romans 13:1-4.
11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individ-ual.
12. A person who has engaged in child sexual abuse does not qualify to receive any congregation privileges or to serve in a position of responsibility in the congregation for decades, if ever. —1 Timothy 3:1-7, 10; 5:22; Titus 1:7.
13. This document is available upon request to members of the congregation. It is reviewed at least once every three years.
Source: https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/#?insight[search_id]=4022773a-67c8-48a8-ba04-eac2f426147e&insight[search_result_index]=0
 
 
 

@AllenSmith34 The point was obvious. I didn't see how that was missed. BibleGateway and Biblehub even points to that lesson also, and that is pretty much holding your hand to lead you to the right answer.

So was that it? The "WILL" became a "MAY"?

Since Anna spelled it that way, I am being polite not to go beyond your kind of grammar since it means so much too many of you. But, let me know who else I should be. Chime in anytime.

However, why don’t you explain to Anna the jubilee cycle, the restoration, and restitution idea about 1925, the correct way that is explained in the proclaimer’s book just fine?

Mind you, without attempting to hack my account, here. It's still against US law.

That's a good one. First I am Allan, now I'm somebody else. I think there is something wrong with the mental stability of some here when people are free to chime in whenever they want. I guess that means you are James and Srecko.
But, this distraction of yours seems to playout everytime you get caught in a deception. A Trump ploy.

A 1988 Yearbook example from one representative country explains it pretty well:
*** yb88 pp. 189-191 ***
All seemed well in the spring of 1975. The Bethel family moved into their spacious new facilities, and Brother Lloyd Barry visited . . .  to give the dedication talk. The 1975 service year ended with an outstanding field report—including 8,120 baptized that year. Thus, in just three years’ time 19,600 were baptized. Well over half of the . . .  Witnesses had been in the truth for less than three years. However, the first few months of the 1976 service year began with a marked decrease in publishers and home Bible studies. This downward trend was to continue for over three years, bottoming out in a 26-percent decrease in publishers, from 32,693 in August 1975 to 24,285 in November 1978. Memorial attendance dropped too, from over 68,000 in 1975 to 49,545 in 1978 [27 percent drop]. The brothers at the branch were perplexed. Would the trend be reversed? Of course, neither they nor the Society were just letting it slide by. The Society’s letter of April 4, 1977, stated:    "We hope the brothers are careful in their teaching. Evidently some were very strong on the 1975 date, and so a good foundation was not laid. The foundation, of course, should be faith in Christ Jesus and the ransom sacrifice, and the dedication should be with understanding.” A very candid observation indeed! Too much emphasis was placed on a date by some Bible teachers. Many newly baptized ones took up the truth on a wave of emotion. Even some elders had their hopes pinned to 1975. . . . The effect: apathy among the brothers. THE ROAD BACK, LONG BUT CERTAIN More than 24,000 Witnesses, solid in the faith, were not shaken by any date. Still, the road back to a new peak of publishers was to take eight long years and was not reached until August 1983. Very "candidly," the Society was still blaming the problem on "some Bible teachers." And the fact that newly baptized ones had taken up "the truth" based on a wave of emotion over a current falsehood. And the fact that even some elders had their hopes pinned to 1975. But if you look carefully, none of that was said in the 1977 letter, which only blamed it on the fact that "some were very strong on the 1975 date." Even the historical rewrite of this letter appearing in the 1988 Yearbook never blames it on the source, just some Bible teachers, some newly baptized ones, and some elders.

Blindly looking for something else. I was alive then, my father an elder did not teach us as children that 75 was the end of it all. Did not sell the house, I went to college the year before, not bethel. We were guided in what was truly going on, by what was taught. I was always highly impressed as to why many had that outlook of dates, when the Bible never gave such teachings. Though God is a timely God, his timepiece is one way above us. Just as Haggai wrote. So we learned very early about dates. Told by Jesus to be alert, awake, not calendar watchers.
First century Christians look forward to the end and they were ridiculed because it did not come as soon as many thought it would. So we must continue to endure. Those who left, had their own agenda, same as those who left before entrance into the promised land. Did not stay focused on Jehovah and what his principles are. That is true today. Not waiting on a date, never have been. Only one who has a clock is Jehovah. His "appointed time", belongs to him. All we are told to do is be alert, don't give up, endure to the end. When that time comes don't let it find us asleep as a thief in the night, right? 
Are you awake? Alert? Enduring? Or are you out of oil, needing to go off and buy some from the oil merchant? Hmmmmm??? Think about it. When they left the city, it was not a time for hesitation. Now is the time for actionable decisions. Either or. That is your choice. I have made mine, trying my best to stay the course on this road. Driver of the bus is swerving, but he is staying on the road.

Since God’s authority and punishment of the Israelites are being questioned, why not ask him directly? Just donÂ’t wait for a bolt of lightning to hit you. Judgment will come later when your question gets answered. Just donÂ’t cry about it, when it does. Especially, when people know through baptism, but didnÂ’t keep their promise. Instead, they allowed former witnesses and world society influence their decision to rebel. Romans 3:22-31 Duck, Duck, Goose.

The laws of probability are not whether you compare apples to kangaroos, much rather than see the kangaroo take possession of the apple and eat it.


 

To sum it up. The one that governs the body of Jehovah’s witnesses is the inspired word of God. The GB doesn’t have anything to do with the framework Christ started, other than obeying God’s and Christ commands. They don’t add on as the general public of former witnesses speculates. If this is too difficult to understand, then the arguments you personally make are simply conjecture.

So, this will conclude our conversation on this matter, and return to the topic at hand.

There is no greater authority than that of God and Christ. That makes even more valuable and has a greater appreciation for the gospel of Christ. 1 Peter 2:21 which the GB intuitively do.

I disagree. Jesus "framework" is/are interpreted many times by many people or organizations as how they see how would Jesus do this or that. So when you put quote that sound so final and as definitive diagnosis; " the Watchtower has the same framework as Jesus did", i must be careful, alert :)))) Not forget how same WT using phrases (when they explaining GB doctrines) as "Jesus must be thinking this or that, he obviously mean this or that. So, please do not call for Jesus authority when promote own or GB ideas :))  

Then you will notice, the Watchtower has the same framework as Jesus did, to separate church from state. So, it is not what the GB is saying, it is what scripture is saying. The majority of former witnesses fail to make that distinction.  As for the trolling, from everyone here, that’s to be expected. There’s only one cure. The moral fiber of some is zero.

How superficial people can be when they plainly have something wrong. If JWinsider would expose his failure with the IP address, it would shed some light on that narrative. If grammar is a problem, then I believe when using, grammar correction software, you will find you all fail. It seems there are many trolls at play, not just one.

Hello,
I have no problem speaking the truth. You are the very few that sets the standard when it comes to intellect and understanding. I thought it was a trick at first, but now, it's just a false perception by that individual.

That's probably true, technically. I never believed your real name was Allen to begin with.?

I don't know Allen other than the truth he brings to this forum. But, thanks for believing I also bring the truth to this site. ?

I don't know Allen other than the truth he brings to this forum. But, thanks for believing I also bring the truth to this site. ?

There are now dozens of ways to not only have random IPs each time you log in, but to even select the IP for a specific location. Some browsers like Chrome even allow plug-ins to keep the ruse going and keep the location from resetting. https://www.expressvpn.com/support/troubleshooting/spoof-location-google-chrome/
For those who can see the IP, it's not good etiquette to reveal someone else's location, even their spoofed location. But there is at least one person here who use several names, most of them spoofed to different locations, and uses them to be able to spam up-votes and down-votes. I know of one user who apparently keeps at least 15 different ID's ready to use at any time primarily so that he can put two and three down-votes and "HaHa" votes on posts he doesn't like, and a couple of up-votes on his own.
I actually think this is kind of humorous or even clever, so this is not said to get the person in any kind of trouble. I just mention it by way of explanation for those who may have received this kind of unusual voting attention for their posts.

If you use the TOR browser to get to the Archive, one's IP address could be from ANYWHERE.

What I cannot fathom is that you (supposedly) still attend meetings and and engage in field service. This makes no sense to me, and does not fit the pattern, and for that reason, I half-don't believe it.  When someone grouses eterally over what eventually drives them apostate, they lose EVERYTHING they once regarded as spiritual. They do not 'reject the 85% that they regard as crap but cling to the 15%' still pure, or was it the other way around? They may do it in the short term. But long term, they reject everything.
This, to me, is the 'mystery' of apostasy. Not that ones would go that route. That I find very easy to understand. But that, having gone there, they would not retain even a shred of what they once held dear. That to me is the mystery.
If it is really true that, as someone alleged, you remain where you hate to be out of fear of social consequences were you to be outed, then you are most of all the one who is in need of courage, the theme at the Be Courageous Regional convention, though the content be not intended for that outcome.