io.porog

Yay

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Thanks @JWInsider and @ThePraeceptor for very helpful input.

For me, the expression by no means, and it's context, seems to imply a condition.

For example, either the generation may look as if it will pass away, hence the emphatic reassurance it will by no means pass away... or,

the generation will by no means pass away in that, at the time of reference, the generation will be so evidently present that it will be ummistakeable, i.e. not a dwindling remnant.

I don't think I want to do that at all. But, point taken, and your reassurance that the Greek is a mere emphasis without further implication is useful and I shall bear it in mind when considering the context of the many other instances of this device.  

"That day and hour", of course, remains...... unknown. 

 

 

 

To me, the phrase "by no means" means "unless [a] happens then [b ] won't happen". In the Maori Bible, the expression uses "e Kore rawa [never] tenei [this] whakatupuranga [generation] e pahemo [to die], kia puta katoa [all be through] ra ano [until] enei mea [these things] "

So, it might be rendered:

This generation will never die, until all these things are through.

It's interesting...

Has anyone else noticed that the brothers are using digital music rather than live orchestrated music in many of the songs. Some songs sound 'cheaper' because of it, like high quality midi but still midi noneltheless. I think I understand the need to be wise about how much we spend on things, it's just a shame that the beautiful analogue quality of real instruments is sacrificed presumably to keep costs down. The old song 142 has synthesized voices doing "do do do" in the background, they're not too bad but when the key changes it's jarringly obvious they're not real human voices. I don't think midi quality music is going to give a good witness especially when our singing is poor as well.

14 minutes ago, ThePraeceptor said:

You should trade mark this just in case... ;-)

I always get tiold to trademark or patent my ideas. Wish I had the money to. But maybe I'll do something like share it on HitRecord so everyone can have it?

I would like to type a lot of words too  but I'm lazy. 

"To begin to discern" 

As people we become accustomed to gradual progressive adjustments in thinking or phasing out of of one idea in favor of another idea. It seems to me that the above phrase is just referring to the beginning of ones research and hunt of supporting scriptural evidence. As brought out recently in a Broadcast in can take many years for a teaching to be introduced although research on it may have begun many years prior.

Yes, 1874 was a time they once referred to as the Parousia. I wonder if that understand will change to "yet future" along with the "first resurrection"?

I believe the same article had the thought that Daniel 12: 4 was fulfilled in 'trains' that 'roved' the lands. So, with some extrapolation it is possible to predict some things. In 1993, while in High School, I drew a Tablet-like device that I called "Watchtower Windows"  It was to be a touch screen device with all our material on it and we would be using them at meetings  

One current idea is an interface that stimulates the part of the brain where hallucinations and dreams come from, to make an image appear in your visual space. There's a Bible app that comes with it. It would be like seeing a holographic image in front of you however, it's fully interactive because the brain is literally the computer running the software. Normally, people would not be able to see what your brain is projecting in front of you. But the interface could link people so that they see the same image. 

The implications of such a technology are profound, already there are basic thought controlled devices making their way to the market. So, it's not hard to see several generations from now. 

I have dubbed the technology "MiND" a play on the phrase My Neural Device.

In the near future, I think we will get our own 'clean' internet that runs completely independently. Just my thoughts

These articles are quite good for Jehovah's people in general because so many actually "hate" gay people. I was sitting in a car with brothers and sisters who got talking about gay people. everything they said was "hateful" of gay people. They had forgotten that it's the act not the person that we should hate. I spoke up and asked, what would happen if a gay person became a brother or sister, would we still talk that way, or would we think they no longer had the desire just because they became a witness. Some said yes quoting "because that's what some of you were." 1 Corinthians 6: 11. It was an awkward discussion, but they only realized how they sounded when someone raised the issue.

On the other side, many gay people may allow the act or even the desire to act to define who they are. 

While we define it as a person who "acts" on the urge and commits such "acts". The world holds the view that if you have even the desire to act you are gay. Most witnesses that I've listened to talking about gay people don't differentiate it either. When you hear it from the platform, it's not differentiated and much of the time it's hate for the people using words like "they are disgusting or filthy." Not the acts they do. This is really unfortunate. And I believe it is our own fault. 

Those whom I have known to have come out of that lifestyle, have really struggled in the truth. From vicious back biting, mockery and isolation. Yet, we preach a message of peace but do not always show it to "all sorts of people." For them, it can be a very lonely place within the organization.

Yes, it is sad that when you call in to see a Bible Student, that they tell you how brother so-and-so told them to be careful of brother x because he is gay. Notice it was not past tense as in "that is what some of you were."

Such, brothers and sister who struggle with same sex attraction would prefer to hide who themselves if they knew the whole congregation viewed them as "unchanged".

I just think, we have a long way to go in many area's, we are not as righteous as we make ourselves out to be at times. I believe this is a big problem at the moment especially with a big focus on it in the last year. That focus has not instilled wise or loving traits in Jehovah's people. Granted not all of us are "hateful" or "malicious" of gay people. But I think we do need to realize some things:

1. For a gay to convert is a really difficult challenge, it cannot be compared to a straight person turning to God.

2. There is a difference between being gay and no longer committing gay acts, it does not mean they stop having gay desires.

3. Many are now our brother's and sister's but they know that if they were open about it that they would be treated badly, so they work hard to hide that side of them to the detriment of the physical and mental health.

We need to be more loving to those who were gay, and realize how hard it is for them to exist in the truth. We should be amazed at their daily struggle to resist the flesh, it cannot be compared to straight people's struggle with sexual desire. If you want to show love, involve them in group socializing. And just so some get to know, it's not the one's that are known that should be worried about. Many "straight looking" brothers may have a struggle as well, they may even persecute or mock those who are known or even be married now, with children. It's not as simple as, that brother looks "camp" so he must be gay or he has a gay voice or likes ballet etc Feminine traits are not always an indicator of gay desire. You don't have to "look" gay to have that desire.

I hope some witnesses will change from a "hateful" disposition toward gay people. We are not the judges. However, this problem is so big it will not likely change over night, sad, but true.

To all you brothers and sisters out there who struggle everyday with gay desire. May the God of peace grant you peace and reward your efforts.

10 hours ago, John Lindsay Barltrop said:

"The God of Jehovah's Witnesses" hahaha............pity they do not realize it is the same God that is mentioned in the Douay, or any other version of the Bible...........just because the chose to remove Jehovah's name from the versions that "imitation Christians" use......how true are the words of Jesus recorded at Matthew 15:9 (these religious leaders have not changed since that 1st Century.) It also brings to mind the words of the apostle Paul at 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Colossians 2:8

Just wondering. Do you feel that the King James, Byington's, and the American Standard are Bible's for "imitation Christians?"

I think it might be fun to have a guess as to what we might expect for the annual meeting, then see how close we got afterward:

I think we will get some news, if not a release, of the new song book and many of the current songs will have been revised and in some cases the music itself may have been changed to suit. Some songs that have changed are:

45 Move Ahead

1. Move ahead, move ahead to maturity!
It’s the will of our God that we gain ability.[NEW] Shine the light of the truth, so that all may plainly see]
Try your best to improve in your ministry,
Then our God your work will bless.[NEW] Trust in God for true success]

There’s a place in the service for all.
It’s the work Jesus did, you’ll recall.
Look to God that you thus at no time may fall,[NEW] Look to God for support that you may not fall]
Standing firm for righteousness.

2. Move ahead, move ahead, boldly witnessing!
Everlasting good news to all sorts of people bring.
Join in praise to Jehovah, our God and King,
As we preach from door to door.
Wicked foes try to cause us to fear. [NEW] Though our foes ... would like us to fear]
Don’t shrink back, but let ev’ryone hear
Joyful news that the Kingdom of God is here.[NEW] Tell the news that the Kingdom of God is here]
Teach the truth yet more and more.
3. Move ahead, move ahead, always follow through,
And improve in your skills for there’s so much work to do.
Let God’s spirit keep on motivating you.[NEW] Let the spirit of God keep on leading you]
Find the joy that is divine.
Love the people you work hard to find.
Keep returning to reach heart and mind.
And assist all good progress each day to make,[NEW] And assist them to grow and to be refined]
So the light of truth will shine.

75 Our Reasons for Joy, 

. Our reasons for joy are abundant,
Like riches increasing in worth.
Desirable things of all nations [NEW] Those precious to God from all nations]
Are joining us in all the earth.
The joy in our heart is well-founded,
With roots reaching deep in God’s Word.
We daily partake of its teachings;
Faith follows the things we have heard.
Our causes for joy are deep-seated,
Like embers that burn in our hearts.
Though troubles and trials beset us,
Endurance Jehovah imparts.

I would like to see songs written in different harmonies for brothers and sisters so one song may have four harmonies but you would download the harmony that suits you.

If the songs are regrouped  and renumbered to reflect the subject would be helpful for brothers trying to decide song numbers for talks. Or just a new index listing the songs by subject would be an option.

In other news, I think we'll get some changes to names of things like overseers, ministerial servants and perhaps some places will be renamed, and some might be shocked by the change.

Perhaps in 2017 we will get another meeting change, this time Sunday meetings. If all the old outlines have been updated they might also include new things that come with those talks. For example, some talks may have videos supplied to be played during the talks. Talks may also become more interactive, involving some sort of audience participation other than just answering up. For years now, many of the talks have really been aimed at the congregation and less about the public. The new meeting may do something unheard of amongst us and open the floor to discuss issues within the community, perhaps everyone could get an outline and prepare for the audience participation part. Of course, it will be moderated sufficienty. 

All existing apps provided by the organization will get massive updates. JW language app will get signed languages. JW Sign Language app will get other signed languages. JW Library will get some interesting interactive features making research fun and deep. 

A few books that have needed an update like the Reasoning Book, Daniel, Ezekiel, and the Revelation book need updates. Nearly all printed production will be halted in the next few years and we will become completely digital.

A new Become Jehovah's Friend Video

3 new refinements in understanding - my guess is more on Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation

There will be 3 more new songs sung which will touch on these refinements. 

And of course lots of experiences of trying out a new method for witnessing.

I personally am hoping for new tech or apps. What do others think? 

NOTE: These are all guesses, I have no prior knowledge about what is coming. I have merely looked at previous meetings and followed a similar pattern. I think it would be fun to guess now, and compare later with what actually happens. 

Reference for song revisions: 2014 Annual Meeting Musical Interlude 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUSAjqlfoXc

Hi Shiwii, I understand where you're coming from. The Bible is very clear though who will and will not enter the kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6: 9, 10 

Galatians 5: 21

These are just two citations for simplicity. But we make a clear distinction between willful practice of sin and sin out of weakness. Yes, you are right we all sin, but not every sin has the same degree of severity. But the Bible can be used to determined that.

So, your answer is God has decided already what qualifies a person for entry into the Kingdom.

No. Not isolation. They have association at meetings. But it is up to the congregation members to choose to associate with them outside of meetings. Some do, others prefer to wait. Sorry, I'm bored of this thread already, tired old retoric repeated over and over by those seeking to find fault. 

The Bible says repentance is evident: Luke 3: 7 - 9

The elders take in account if the sin is still happening. They also look at the type of sin and its effect on the congregation. Granted, elders are not perfect. 

Example, Manasseh committed blatant attrocities most of his life, Jehovah forgave him despite his record.

It sounds to me that you really don't know Jehovah's love. Such a shame.

No. I think you may have missed the point. The unrepentant generally don't return. 40 years is particularly long, and gives hope for others who may yet return. Repentance is the key factor here.

 Anyone who has been away for an extended time, would be subject to a gradual process of coming back. while a physical return may be short term the spiritual return is long term.

Someone inactive that returns, cannot still be practicing gross sin.

Many don't return until they get their lives in order. But if they are to be welcomed back, they may have a Bible Study. They may not initially go out on field service, until they are sufficiently ready. Some articles explain that it is like a wounded lamb being carried back to the flock in the upper folds of a shepherds outer garment. It will need nursing and sufficient care before it can run around again. Similarly with re-activating ones. A full spiritual return can take years for some. This may be because some continue to feel the guilt of their inactive life long after ceasing practicing sin. So, while Jehovah is always ready to forgive, we ourselves are generally the ones who make it a difficult process. Isaiah 1: 18

Is it interesting, that Jason BeDuhn whom we have referred to regarding his book Truth in Translation, mentions about the 84 NWT that verse comes up. Some documents called J Documents were used to help the brothers decide where Jehovah's name should appear in the Greek text. There is a J Document for this scripture too which would render the text this way:

"But sanctify the Christ as Jehovah in your hearts."

But curiously we did not render it that way, apparently because it might cause confusion. For me, it just means that Jesus which means Jehovah is Salvation, is coming in Jehovah's name as his representative. But I can see that confusion could happen for some. However, when the third angel spoke to Abraham as they looked over at Sodom and Gomorrah, he too was speaking as Jehovah himself. We explain this situation in a number of articles and books, but not regarding 1 Peter 3: 15.

Just a thought. Sorry, to drop in like this too, I realise I haven't replied to your other thread. 

I believe its song 120 Listen Obey and Be Blessed

Edit: The chorus

Thanks. It wasn't meant to be an argument. Just to show there was a list on the WT Library CD/ DVD. Also notice the differences in dates when changes are said to occur. I found it interesting that the Wikipedia quote above also contains references from Raymond Frans.

On 8/1/2016 at 11:29, HollyW said:

Thanks for your reply.  The requirement to accept WTS teachings is not limited to 10 teachings.  The requirement is to accept ALL of their teachings.

The question is, if they did change their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus after you were baptized, do you believe you should be required to believe it on pain of excommunication and shunning?   

 

Sorry, you misunderstood. There are 10 main teachings that seem to not have changed since the founding of the organisation. This has been very consistent. I wasn't saying reject everything else at all. To be clear for you, There are ten that I think will never change, the rest I can expect to change with subtle to moderate changes, with a few major changes every now and then. So I don't get hung up on it. However, you seem to hate this process, despite its scriptural basis in Proverbs 4: 18. Though you probably have your own understanding of that too.

12 hours ago, HollyW said:

To keep this thread on track with the question in the OP [which was: "do you think that if a teaching has changed since you were baptized, you should still be required to believe it?] if the WTS Governing Body said they had received new light and changed their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus being separate individuals to one that says Jesus is Jehovah, would you change your belief to agree with them?

If you wouldn't, do you believe you should be subject to reproof and/or disfellowshipping for not accepting their new teaching?

That's a very interesting question Holly. While I don't think they would ever do that, I have seen this or a similar line of thought to this. I think it would take us very close to the Mormons. But the scriptural basis for such a teaching seems pretty weak. I can think of two scriptures that could be interpreted that way. Do you have any scriptures in mind that would present a strong case for that? Keeping in mind that Witnesses will not budge from John 14: 28 and similar scriptures. I don't think such a change would be made drastically, but introduced in stages. Overall I think there are 10 base teachings that are very unlikely to change. The separateness of Jehovah and Jesus is one.

13 minutes ago, Witness said:

I do tend to go "all out".  Truth in the scriptures is the priority, they speak volumes.  Sorry to overload you.  Please let me know what I haven't answered.

Hi again, I think when Jesus said "I and the Father are one" he said it in the same way that he wanted his followers to be one with him and his Father. We are all individuals, we are not Jesus himself, we are not Jehovah, even though we can experience oneness with them, nor does being one with them mean we are equal with them. John 17: 21

The oneness is of thought and purpose. 1 Cor 1: 10

On 7/21/2016 at 12:31, Witness said:

Hello Mr. VHC,

Scriptures help us make good sense of all those questions, which I admit are thought-provoking.

 

 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.  John 5:18

 

This claim by the Pharisees held no weight when the conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees ensued as they announced that their Father was God.

 

 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. ³⁸ I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”³⁹ They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father. ”Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. ⁴⁰ But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. ⁴¹ You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

 

⁴² Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. ⁴³ Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. ⁴⁴ You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.”  John 8:37-44

 

This helps sum up our status as whose “children” we belong to, and the point Jesus was making. 1 John 3:1

 

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:10

 

(Can we proclaim ourselves “righteous”, then proceed to disfellowship a brother who cares to follow Christ and the Father completely?  Is this love?  Rom 10:2,3)

 

I believe the closest that Jesus displays God’s form, is as The Word.  While on earth, of course, he was the in the form of man.

 

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,  who, being in the form of God, did not deem himself worthy of snatching equality with God, but emptied Himself and took the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of humans. And being found himself in human design, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of impalement."  Phil 2:5-8

 

This “form of God” is as The Word – as spirit, born of God’s spirit as the “only begotten Son”  John3:16; 1:14,18  By God’s command, life came through this begotten one in spirit form, who had a beginning, unlike God. John 14:6; Heb 11:3; Gen 1:26; Prov 8:22-31

 

“All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.   He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” John 1:3,10

 

 ^“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”  Col 1:16

 

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;  who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,  having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.  Heb 1:1-4

 

With God, there is no beginning. 1 Tim 1:17; 1 Chron 29:10; Titus 1:2

 

“Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth, He will not grow tired or weary and his understanding no one can fathom.”  Isa 40:28

 

If Christ is an extension of God’s spirit, first in God’s form as the Word, those “in Christ” and who become one with him, are all to share the same spirit from God, as children of God. 

 

“We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.   By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.”   1 John 4:6,13

 

When Jesus said, I am the way the truth the life, it shows him originally as the Word, not only the source of life, but the spirit emanating from God.  1 John 5:6

 

“This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.”  1 John 5:6

 

2 Pet 1:21; James 4:5

 

Jesus deserves our relative worship because of this spiritual connection with the Almighty Father, which acknowledges the authority that God has given him.

 

 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.  1 Cor 15:27,28

 

The GB has altered this sense of worship to be given Christ through their opting to translate the Greek word for worship as “obeisance” in all instances regarding Christ, and as “worship” regarding God in the NWT.    Jer 23:36; 2 Pet 3:16

 

If they do not recognize Christ’s power established by God, his rightful authority, the many facets of who he is, as the Word coming directly from God, as Michael standing up for God’s people, and how this Mighty God deserves our worship - can they even comprehend being “one” in Christ, let alone one in God?  Christ is “the brightness of his glory”!  How can we dismiss him as just an example of loyalty to imitate? 

 

They are good examples for us to imitate. Of course, Jesus is the best example for all dedicated servants of Jehovah. w/12/6/15   

 

 ^“Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,  that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,  and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil 2:9-11

 

 To the anointed ones and to all sheep, our direct Master and mediator is Christ.  The below comment by the WT is true, but diverts attention from Christ.

 

The basis for Christian dedication is love of our heavenly Master, Jehovah.  W 13/10/15

 

Has the organization denied our Master, Jesus Christ, not only by subduing any worship to be given him; but by concealing his true nature as our salvation and not an organization? James 3:14-16; Phil 3:18,19; Rev 5:12-14; Heb 2:3; John 1:4,5

 

“For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”  Jude 1:4 

 

“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”  Col 1:15

 

Don’t you agree it should be our desire to “know Christ” above and beyond what we may think we know about him?

 

 ^"But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.  What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ  and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.  I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, ¹¹ and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead." Phil 3:7-11

 

The oneness in Christ and the Father still means we are individuals, since Christ is a separate entity from God; yet holy spirit bonds one to Christ and the Father in knowledge, love, righteousness in the same manner as the early apostles experienced.  Paul, Peter, James...all had their own personality, but were sealed in Christ and his purpose as part of God's Temple arrangement.  1 Pet 3:8-12;2:5,9  

"Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy,  fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind."  Phil 2:2 (Col 2:2,3

 

 

Glory - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/12/glory.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll have to take some time to read over this one. At first glance, it's not readily apparent that you have answered my question or not. To be frank, I'm a bit overloaded, when one or two clear scriptural reference would've sufficed you've gone all out. I agree with the Governing Body's position that Jehovah and Jesus are separate individuals, Jesus being a created being as described in Colossians as the firstborn of creation, both pre-eminent and first thing created. A master worker though not a co-creator.

7 hours ago, Uwe Rügenhagen said:

How can just ONE of us "Loyal ones" LIKE theeze uploadings :Talks & videos from the conventions...???
If we REALLY would be loyal, we would listen & obey,
what ´s been said on EVERY Assembly & Convention:
"NOT to UPLOAD  Audio - or Video-files on Social Platforms"
And EACH one of us knows, that  everyone, who could not attend on any
convention can get a DVD from their own congregation.
*
Sad to see this always each & every year HERE  ,
on You Tube or on FB without *I*.....
.
(Listen , forget & get stressed...& than wonder why....)

 

 

Is that why you are on this website? Because you are being loyal? 

4 hours ago, The Librarian said:

@Mr_VHC@WNF Please start new threads for questions since this is not pertaining to the original posting.  Thx ;-)

I believe the OP is about the Governing Body making changes after one's Baptism, the word corrections is another way of saying making adjustments or changes. My question was related to the OP that God uses men to make such corrections, including the Governing Body. The collection of answers from beginning to end has been building a case in support of the view that if a change comes after one's Baptism then we should expect them as God has always corrected and adjusted his people from the very beginning. I would like to appeal your statement as I don't think you've read and understood all my answers in the context of the OP. It is evident that I may not be clear or need to reference my statements to previous ones as taken "on their own" it might seem unrelated. But taken as a whole all my answers are defending the Governing Body's right to make new changes after one's Baptism. For this reason, I would like to appeal your statement. Please reconsider.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Hello again Sir,

You are defending the GB, I realize that.  You believe they are blessed by the Holy Spirit simply because they are anointed, and because they call themselves the “faithful and discreet slave”. We must remember that any anointed one can fall from God’s grace by their desire for prominence. This was prophesied.  2 Thess 2:1-4; Jude 1:8-13; 3 John 1:9,10; 2 Tim 3:1-9

 

I believe the Angel of the Lord you are referring to was the Christ himself, as Michael and as the Word.  Jesus has been given various roles and assignments displaying his wondrous capacity, various responsibilities, and divine nature.  Isa 9:6; Luke 1:31-33; Matt 1:21,23; John 1:1,14,29; Rev 19:11,16

 

He bears the role of Michael, the Archangel (Who is Like God) (Josh 5:13,14), and as the Word (messenger or “angel”) (also Josh 5:13).  It is with the "commanding call" of Christ, that he gather his faithful anointed, with this voice. Rev 1:10,12,13; 1 Thess 4:16; Joel 2:11; Rev 19:11,14,8

 

Dan 12:1; Rom 7:25; 2 Tim 4:18

 

1 Cor 10 gives solid evidence of Christ’s presence with Moses and the Israelites:

 

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,  all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,  all ate the same spiritual food, ⁴ and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.  But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.  1 Cor 10:1-5 

 

The one who bears this spiritual food is mentioned in John 6:

 

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe." John 6:26-32;36(John6:26-32,36)

 

This is the bread which comes down from heaven that one may eat of it and not die.  John 6:50

 

Jesus represents or is, the “bread of life” as the Word, and we see he provided spiritual sustenance from God to those people in the wilderness.   John 6:33,35

 

Since Jesus and the Father are one, sharing the same light, (John 10:30; 8:12; 14:20; 1 John 1:5) the Angel of the Lord that appeared to Moses was Christ, in one of him many capacities.  John 8:18 Thus, ultimately it was God who lead Moses and the people out of Egypt, as they are one.

 

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.  John 14:8-11  (Gen 16:10,13; Judges 13:21,22)

 

The Word was with the Father since the beginning.

 

⁵⁶ Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8:54-58 ⁵⁷ Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”  John 8:56-58

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.  This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. ⁸ He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.  That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.   John 1:1-3;6-9

 

To “bear witness of the Light”, and God is this Light. Since Jesus is also light,  it shows the ability of Christ to represent God to Moses, and cause Moses’ face to shine.  Exod 34:35 (Matt 17:2; Rev 1:16)

 

 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”  John 6:40 (Ps 78:21-25)

 

He is also the “hidden manna” of Rev 2:17, which is Truth.  (Matt 4:4; John 17:17)

 

To compare the GB with Moses goes against God’s arrangement today. The only Head and Leader of the anointed ones is Jesus Christ, and they are not expected to replace Christ as Head among any man. Matt 23:8,10; Eph 1:22; 5:29,30,28; Col 1:18  We know the GB does not speak face to face with God, (Heb 9:24) nor can they be compared to the angel that appeared before Moses. God has given Jesus divine approval to be Head of the Congregation and none other.  Eph 1:22; John 8:18; Mark 9:7

 

At this time of the end, Jesus again leads those of a righteous and repentant heart toward salvation through the declaration of truth Jesus provides them.  Rev 11:1-11

 

 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.(2 Cor 3:3; Heb 10:15-17) And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”  Jer 31:31-34

 

 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thess 4:16

 

Deut 5:6; Exod 20:2;7:5;29:46;Num 15:41; Ps 81:10; Deut 5:6; Hos 13:4

 

 

 

We agree that Jesus is Michael and the Word. May I ask, do you believe that Jehovah and Jesus are individuals or a single individual? If you believe that they are individuals, do you believe that they are both without beginning, being uncreated? If you believe they are a single individual, do you believe that the oneness Christians experience makes us all one individual? Do you believe that we are one with Christ? In what sense? Thank you for a refreshing discussion.

My point was that God made the corrections to men, not men making corrections to men. When you have a group that changes from left to right and back to left again, then you must know that this did not come from God. Could God use this left right left to His advantage? sure, He uses people and circumstances to His advantage all the time, to work out His will. When a group claims to speak for God and these changes become apparent, it is not that hard to see God is not using this group as His mouthpiece.

Was it not by men that God corrected his people in the past? Was not Moses used to convey God’s thoughts to Korah, Dathan and Abiram? Were not the Judges humans used to bring the people back from apostasy. Was not Nathan a man that corrected David? Were not all the prophets sent by God? I think my point is established. If you believe God led Israel through the wilderness you will know they did not travel in a straight line Either you believe God led the people through the wilderness or you believe a man did who thought he was guided by God. Which is it? Remember the law was a major change for the people, a lot of ingrained thinking had permeated them while living among the Egyptians.

You know the saying that the WT uses, the one about tacking into the wind as a sailboat does? A few things came to mind about that. One, if this is describing the mode of operation of the WT how does this compare to say John the Baptist?

  John made the pathway before God straight (Isa 40:3/Matt 3:3/John 1:23/Mark 1:3/Luke 3:4). John preached one thing, repentance,  and this didn't change. He did not say "repent" one day and then the next "you don't need to repent yet". The second point that came to mind was how if by tacking, a sailboat gains distance traveled, the sailboat also has a course set out and a destination. What ground/distance is gained in a flip flop of doctrines? It is reversing to a previous point, not advancing. What destination is there in mind when a complete reversal takes place?

John’s baptism was insufficient to be saved was it not? Because all had to be baptized into Christ. If John’s baptize was enough there would be no need to be baptized into to Christ. Hence, a major adjustment for the followers of John. Many of them clung to John but some did not and were baptized into Christ. Now, question, those who stayed in the baptism of John – would they receive holy spirit and be guided by it? I think also we need to look at the meaning of the word “Straight” very carefully. Taken literally we are inclined to think a straight line or direct path, but God often has not taken the most direct rout in a matter. For example, before the crossing at the Red Sea the Israelites reached Etham at which point they could have gone straight up into the promised land minus 40 years of sojourneying. Instead, they ‘turned back’ and went down to ‘Pihahiroth in view of Baal-zephon’. In human eyes, this was a catastrophic error and a major adjustment for the people who began wondering where Moses was leading them. To Pharoah it looked as though the Israelites were wondering in confusion! Do you see something similar happening today? In human eyes, the Governing Body may look like crazy men leading the people in what may seem confusing directions. But maybe you are not able to see the pillar of cloud leading them by day and the pillar of night leading them by night.

What ground is gained? You’re thinking in human dimensions. Remember, our faith is only made stronger by getting a tested quality through enduring trials. Most of the people were untested and prone to complaining and looking to the things behind. They were spiritual babes not yet knowing how to walk. The light of the sun was still at early dawn and while we know much more since that time full day is still some way to go. Thus, God’s view of progress is different than ours, what takes us a thousand years is only a short time to God or a day.

The difference between us both sticking with the Bible and not being in agreement, it that of a bias we have within ourselves. I am content in using the Bible alone and allowing it to support itself. Are you?

An issue here is whether millions of individuals can separately arrive at the exact same conclusion. It certainly is not impossible for God to lead his people this way, but the question is, is that the way God leads his people. What does Bible history tell us? Adam instructed Eve and his family, Enoch taught his son, who taught his son , who taught Noah, who taught his family, who taught their families, who spread abroad after the flood with the line of Shem leading to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Israelites, who were led by Moses, Joshua, Judges, Kings, informed by prophets, apostles and today the Governing Body. To me, God has always used men to lead his people. The very basic uniti of society is the family arrangement. God uses the family head to direct the family.

Another aspect to consider, is that while God’s people are in their millions not all have the same ability to understand God’s will. There is great variation among God’s people. If I may use the illustration of hiking through a national park as a group. How should the people travel? Together or individually? Would individuals have a better chance of going it alone with just a map or compass? What about the individual needs and abilities of each person, some may be fit but others may not be so fit? If you decide to travel as a group, should you travel at the pace of the fittest member or the least fit? I’m sure you’re aware that directing an organization is subject to a huge amount of variables. Now, think about the varying spiritual states of each JW. A large number of people that we are meeting cannot read, what good would the Bible alone do for such people unless the people knew how to read. Was it not Paul that said “How could I know unless someone told me?” Or did he say “How could I know unless I read it myself?”. What about Philip running alongside the Ethiopian Official? He was reading a part of the Bible, but Philip asked, do you know/ understand/ comprehend what you’re reading? Again, his reply helps us to see: “How could I unless someone guided me?” What about Jesus’ commission to preach, if it were up to individuals to use the Bible alone to teach ourselves, would not Jesus direction be invalid? If we make Jesus direction invalid are we not then bringing heavy judgement upon ourselves.

I agree that neither of us can understand everything there is, and we will miss things along the way, but our willingness to bring forth our ideas for criticism is what helps us remove our bias. Without an independent party (others on this forum and elsewhere) giving us what they see in both our view as well as their view, then we have a group who might as well believe the sky is falling.

Hahaha, to some people we are suffering from mass delusion – sky falling syndrome I’ve done enough talking. Over to you…

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Witness, I'd like to hear your thoughts on these scriptures:

Exodus 3: 1 - 4 Was it God's voice or the angel conveying God's words?

Compare Exodus 14: 19; 23: 20; 33: 2

Numbers 20: 14 - 17 Was it God that brought Israel out of Egypt or was it an angel?

Also, have you read Acts 7: 30 - 38?

Acts 7: 30 “After 40 years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Siʹnai in the flame of a burning thornbush. 31 When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice was heard: 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’ Moses started trembling and did not dare to investigate further. 33 Jehovah said to him: ‘Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have certainly seen the oppression of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and I have come down to rescue them. Now come, I will send you off to Egypt.’ 35 This same Moses whom they had disowned, saying: ‘Who appointed you ruler and judge?’ is the very one God sent as both ruler and deliverer by means of the angel who appeared to him in the thornbush. 36 This man led them out, performing wonders and signs in Egypt and at the Red Sea and in the wilderness for 40 years.
37 “This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel: ‘God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.’ 38 This is the one who came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Siʹnai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give us.

So, was it God's voice that Moses heard or was it God's word conveyed by an angel? Very interested in your answer here.

Edit: Just wondering, do either of you, Witness or Holly consider yourself inspired or moved by holy spirit?