FelixCA

Are you suggesting, Jesus didn’t alter the Jewish teaching? At what point does denigrating the GB by you and Butler amount to ethical thinking. A person that opposes God’s coordinated earthly rule and one that renounces their own faith have zero credibility to any conversation.
So far, I see conflict as Raymond Franz had about CHANGE. Although the change he had in mind was becoming the next President of the Watchtower, and when that didn’t happen, apostasy grew within.
As a living sacrifice, shouldn’t we make a change? Romans 12:1-2
Shouldn’t we be renewed day by day? 2 Corinthians 4:16-18
Whereas those that oppose authority defy God.
Romans 13:2
2Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
There seems to be some confusion about the great commission. Matthew 28:19-20 and the rule we each have with our personal abilities. Mark 16:15 what it means to preach thought-out the world. Acts 1:8 and who has what capabilities and responsibilities. 
 
Ephesians 4:11-16 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
 
Those that refuse to obey the instructions left by Christ cannot be called a Christian. Jesus appointed the apostles but God gave them the Holy Spirit just as it was given to Christ. Jesus appointed the laborers for the harvest Luke 10, but God gave them the Holy Spirit.
Did Jesus defy the prevailing authority? Matthew 23:2-4
Therefore, let’s put that authority nonsense to rest once and for all. What is a flock without a shepherd? Acts 20:28 who are the overseers, the sheep? I can think of several things not to listen to such lofty arguments. 2 Corinthians 10:5

Are you saying you don’t know why Judas was handpicked?
 Simon Peter answered, “Lord, to whom will we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Jesus replied to them, “Didn’t I choose you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He was referring to Judas, Simon Iscariot’s son] one of the Twelve, because he was going to betray him.  John 6:68-71
 
While they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.”
22 Deeply distressed, each one began to say to him, “Surely not I, Lord?”
23 He replied, “The one who dipped his hand with me in the bowl—he will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for him if he had not been born.”  Matt 26:21-24
 
His role was instrumental in fulfilling prophesy, and God who reads the heart thoroughly, could see clearly that Judas had already chosen his path, which was destruction. Are you equating this to the GB, or Raymond Franz as being “handpicked by Jesus” to do good, or evil?
We have full evidence that the disciples were inspired by Spirit. John 20:22;  Rom 8:5,9; 1 Cor 2:10  We don't have that evidence with the GB who must alter teachings continually.   We don't hear how the Spirit directs them, but that they are not "inspired"; so, instead, we hear how the GB put their heads together to come up with new decrees.  There is no comparison to the apostles.  Why make it?  
 
 

People always seem to harp back to 2000 years ago, to try to make a defence for the GB. 
Different times, different situations.
Judas allowed himself to be misled by the devil, but it also seems it was necessary that the betrayer came from within. 
Maybe you should have quoted this bit as well. "Yet he gets kicked out by the other members of the GB for being an apostate."
Because it seems Raymond Franz didn't betray God or Jesus Christ.
Knowledge of such things is way over my head of course, so I don't know who was right in God's viewpoint.
But it does give a person reason to distrust the GB if RF wasn't found guilty of any real wrongdoing. 

Are you foreign that you do not understand English properly ? No disrespect if you are, but it would give me reason to know why you misinterpret  everything i  write.
It was / is the wicked angels, that is the devil and his demons,  that challenge God's sovereignty not me. I just stated the case....  
Hitler could not have done any of the wicked deeds without the majority of Germany backing him.  The  Germans may not have backed him because they wanted to, but maybe out of fear. Just as JW's serve the GB through the Elders, out of fear. 
Just as people come on here , this forum, but use pseudonyms, out of fear of being found out by the Elders.
Felix i see you are using the GB's idea of suggesting people are mentally unstable. Typical Watchtower doctrine. 
Sorry Admin but I'm just answering Felix. Perhaps Felix should start another topic of should i just ignore him ?  
But let's get back on topic. A question 
Is it a disfellowshipping offence to read Raymond Franz books, or to own them ? 

Apparently, you must not have known the Franz’s as well as you claim including other governing body members. However, having read Raymond books, I can unequivocally state I reject the claims about the organization. Therefore, your argument is incorrect. Here is a man that found confusion with cynicism. Who put him up to it?
One area which is true would be how the POPE saw itself. In the beginning, they saw themselves as equal to Christ, thus being incapable of doing wrong. This, of course, is ludicrous since no one made the pope perfect. It doesn’t take Raymond’s books to bring to light something that should be already known to Christians. Therefore, a poor example.

Then you challenge God’s sovereignty and superiority. I would have to ask, who are you to challenge God? Are you Satan as the inference implies? Hitler was an evil man as a youth. That darkened heart continued to increase over the embarrassment of having his country lose a war and having Jews gain some control over the motherland. Therefore, the Hitler analogy is inadequate in how someone would blame an organization or society. Seems like an overreach bordering on mental instability.
 

Not hardly!! Did you take note at how I knocked the formidable JTR out of the ring? I’ll have you for lunch!

 
By the way, I’m reading a new author of science fiction, Darth Dethway. In a very exciting chapter, the evil alien says:
”Surrender, earthlings! You have no chance!   Zip...zero...nada!”
Do you think?

How demonstrative to think a heretic writes an op-ed and people believe it comes from the Watchtower. The letter itself continues to make the same claim heard over and over again on the internet.

That means the same senseless propaganda continues to circulate to entice the masses, instead of looking at the worldwide problem as it should be, with diligence, not cynicism.

Watchtower faders must be loving this. The most important thing would be, how the government operates, and how their own laws make it a conflicting proposition for those that want genuine justice.

There lies the difference between keeping records and not keeping records. The reality is not one size fits all, but each case is unique and should be handled with caution not with guilty until proven either way guilty or innocent.

A good case of destroying evidence is with a US case in Texas where a priest “murdered” a woman, and the church along with the STATE OF TEXAS concealed the matter. It wasn’t until a reporter found some documents that brought this 57-year-old case back to life. A murder case, with child sexual abuse outcome.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/church-officials-shielded-priest-suspected-of-murder-for-decades/

https://www.abqjournal.com/1255522/new-legal-troubles-for-the-archdiocese-of-santa-fe.html

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/ag-requests-full-disclosure-from-new-mexico-dioceses-on-sex/article_84dac37d-bfd4-5df3-aa9e-cda737509837.html

“Assistant District Attorney Mike Garza -- no relation to the victim Irene Garza -- said during trial that a deal was struck following the murder between local law enforcement at the time and officials with the Catholic Church to protect John Feit from prosecution and allow the Church hierarchy to discipline the priest under its own terms.”

Therefore, the only slander I see here is with exJW’s, faders and noneJW’s

How demonstrative to think a heretic writes an op-ed and people believe it comes from the Watchtower. The letter itself continues to make the same claim heard over and over again on the internet.

That means the same senseless propaganda continues to circulate to entice the masses, instead of looking at the worldwide problem as it should be, with diligence, not cynicism.

Watchtower faders must be loving this. The most important thing would be, how the government operates, and how their own laws make it a conflicting proposition for those that want genuine justice.

There lies the difference between keeping records and not keeping records. The reality is not one size fits all, but each case is unique and should be handled with caution not with guilty until proven either way guilty or innocent.

A good case of destroying evidence is with a US case in Texas where a priest “murdered” a woman, and the church along with the STATE OF TEXAS concealed the matter. It wasn’t until a reporter found some documents that brought this 57-year-old case back to life. A murder case, with child sexual abuse outcome.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/church-officials-shielded-priest-suspected-of-murder-for-decades/

https://www.abqjournal.com/1255522/new-legal-troubles-for-the-archdiocese-of-santa-fe.html

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/ag-requests-full-disclosure-from-new-mexico-dioceses-on-sex/article_84dac37d-bfd4-5df3-aa9e-cda737509837.html

“Assistant District Attorney Mike Garza -- no relation to the victim Irene Garza -- said during trial that a deal was struck following the murder between local law enforcement at the time and officials with the Catholic Church to protect John Feit from prosecution and allow the Church hierarchy to discipline the priest under its own terms.”

Therefore, the only slander I see here is with exJW’s, faders and noneJW’s

Then I can only say, what are you doing here? Scripture is meant for those that follow Christ, not become retaliatory to let off steam. If you have insight about scripture with a better interpretation, then, by all means, let’s hear it. This idea of criticism by you and Bultler has brought nothing but failures in understanding. We are all adults. But there is a difference between being a human grownup, and being a spiritual child that matured. Let’s get off meaningless criticism and concentrate in fundamental in Bible truth if you wish to learn. If not, then there is no need for further discussion.

Let’s ask the question.

How would you go about teaching and inspiring over eight million witnesses and about twenty million interested parties? Remember, there are language barriers and scriptural interpretation to consider. Have you ever run a corporation? You place your self above all the anointed. Can you explain how Jah gave you this higher spirit?

Then you would agree there is a need to comprehend what is before us. Especially when it relates to definitions of particular words.


This prevents us from thinking we can be perfect instead, try to imitate perfection by following in Jesus footsteps. Do you honestly believe you are perfect according to the word, perfection? Even if we comply with every instruction given by Jesus and the commandments given by Jah can we remove our sinful state?

This can be illustrated by the conduct here of a failure to meet Christ standards of perfection. Ephesians 4:22-32

This is why Jah continues to give us a chance to redeem ourselves from a sinful state. Meaning as imperfect humans. Romans 5:8

What is one of the prerequisites to maintain that appearance of sinless state, if not with obedience?

Different topic. Stick to this one, or do a new post for it.

As for your argument about perfection. Consider the other definition that is associated with Christianity, not common usage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_perfection
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/perfect-perfection/


Therefore, the word accordingly is an abstract that can be used as relative.

It seems something offended you. I have seen many of your other posts. I wouldn't retaliate either or be pathetic about it.

Then I can only say, what are you doing here? Scripture is meant for those that follow Christ, not become retaliatory to let off steam. If you have insight about scripture with a better interpretation, then, by all means, let’s hear it. This idea of criticism by you and Bultler has brought nothing but failures in understanding. We are all adults. But there is a difference between being a human grownup, and being a spiritual child that matured. Let’s get off meaningless criticism and concentrate in fundamental in Bible truth if you wish to learn. If not, then there is no need for further discussion.

Then you cannot appreciate what scripture is actually relating to us mortals.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:48 If you wish to bring in scriptural understanding with the old Greek Classic, versus the Koine Greek, if you have experience with linguistics, then, by all means, let’s discuss this matter through intellectual understanding. From the textus receptus, Latin Vulgate, or whatever codex you wish to use. Even the Westcott and Hort.  Since Srecko failed to reply on how his wisdom is above all others, then I can only stipulate this is your idea also.

Logic, as seen through the definition, brings in many afterthoughts. The word perfection is not intended as you describe it. If we do, it loses all credibility to what is intended through scripture. This is a fundamental flaw in understanding. We can only imitate perfection, not become it until after Armageddon.




To an extent, you and Srecko have become what the post is.

Then I can only say, what are you doing here? Scripture is meant for those that follow Christ, not become retaliatory to let off steam. If you have insight about scripture with a better interpretation, then, by all means, let’s hear it. This idea of criticism by you and Bultler has brought nothing but failures in understanding. We are all adults. But there is a difference between being a human grownup, and being a spiritual child that matured. Let’s get off meaningless criticism and concentrate in fundamental in Bible truth if you wish to learn. If not, then there is no need for further discussion.

Of course you are aware that the word accordingly was put in by the GB or writing dept of W/t are't you ?
Hence i gave you the King James version also. 
The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek is this :-
"You shall be therefore you perfect as the Father of you the heavenly perfect is."
That is directly from the Greek hence seems strange BUT no mention of the word ACCORDINGLY.
The GB make it up as they go along. 
And this perfection is expected of the Anointed not of the earthly class. 

i just went to my Kingdom Interlinear Translation  
Copyright 1985
by WTBTS of Pennsylvania and IBSA
800 000 copies. 
Publishers:  WTBTS of New York inc. and IBSA Brooklyn
Made in USA
IN Greek text not existing word "accordingly"

Srecko I love reading your comments. You make sense and talk truth. 
But i am yet to find how to move forward. 

Matthew 5 v 48.  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NWT)
King James Version.  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 
Perfection can possibly mean different things to different people, especially to God. 
Adam was created perfect, but he could not fly. If he had jumped off a mountain and tried he would have been in trouble. Does that mean he was not perfect ? I don't think so.  I think being perfect means being perfect for a specific job. 
The Anointed, that is the TRUE REAL Anointed ones, will be perfect for the work that God has for then to do. 

Can you explain how a mortal soul can accomplish this? Perfection means a sinless state just as was Christ. Adam and Eve lost that sinless state. How can an imperfect person be perfect?

This is how the GB explain themselves when stating they are not infallible.

It seems witness keeps misunderstanding the ramification. I guess he believes the Catholic POPE when they state they are infallible.

That’s one good point to trust in God’s spirit direction instead of trusting on your own.

Personally, I wouldn’t trust someone that doesn’t understand scripture and they think they are perfect. This becomes a problem when one shares falsehoods to appease themselves rather than serve Jah.



So, how would that differ from the criticism given toward the JWorg when people believe the Org spread falsehoods?

Was the Catholic Church wrong when it stopped using soldiers like the crusaders to win a holy war? Does this not mean changes were made? Which church can be side not to change their understanding when a new discovery makes it necessary to adjust previous understanding, such as in language or time?

Have Watchtower’s “virgins” walked in the path of Christ?  Have they been persecuted by their own leaders just as Christ was?  Have they stood up to faltering teachings and discarded “truth”, labeling it as a lie, just as Jesus boldly told the Pharisees that they were of their father the devil?  John 8:44
Have they been “thrown out of the synagogues” – congregations – on account of upholding Christ?  Have they been judged as spiritually “dead”?
“I have told you this, so that you will not give up your faith. 2 You will be expelled from the synagogues, and the time will come when those who kill you will think that by doing this they are serving God. 3 People will do these things to you because they have not known either the Father or me. 4 But I have told you this, so that when the time comes for them to do these things, you will remember what I told you.  John 16:2,3
Have they shared the same “disgrace” as Christ did, among his own people?
Let us, then, go to him outside the camp and share his shame. 14 For there is no permanent city for us here on earth; we are looking for the city which is to come. Heb 13:13,14
Have they rejected the organization and its material strongholds -  a “city” -   that claims it will survive Armageddon? 
As a result of being an outcast, have they experienced this:
A father will be against his son and a son against his father. A mother will be against her daughter and a daughter against her mother. A mother-in-law will be against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”  Luke 12:53
“People will hand over their own brothers to be put to (symbolic) death, and fathers will do the same to their children; children will turn against their parents and have them put to death.”  Matt 10:21
Jesus was speaking to his own people.  How will this be fulfilled among those in the WT?  It is a sign of the end times.  But, Watchtower’s “virgins” appeared to have escaped all of this – already found “blameless”, even though discarded doctrines once preached as truth, are indeed, lies.  It is also certain that if one were to do research, there would be a conflicting teaching about  WT's virgins and their present state,  just as with all topics found on the org’s website. 
“Death”/disfellowshipping  is a result of the rejection of a Wicked Slave and its drunken henchmen – who are the beating heart of the organization.  Matt 24:48-51; Rev 13:1,7,8,11,12,14-17
On the other hand, are these “foolish virgins” allowing themselves to be “trampled’  and muted, by this dual counterfeit power portrayed to be blessed by God?
Wise virgins of “New Jerusalem” have repented for listening to men and their doctrine, that requires revering its idol/organization.  They have accepted instead the leadership of the Father and Christ.  Although they suffer the unrighteous label of disgrace, they gladly leave such oppressive wickedness and drunkenness sourced in the “Harlot”/false prophet’s “wine”/teachings.  Rev 17:1,2; 19:2
You suffering people of Jerusalem,
    you that stagger as though you were drunk,
22 the Lord your God defends you and says,
“I am taking away the cup
    that I gave you in my anger.
You will no longer have to drink
    the wine that makes you stagger.
23 I will give it to those who oppressed you,
    to those who made you lie down in the streets
    and trampled on you as if you were dirt.”  Isa 51:23
Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3,7
 
Dear JWs, I so wish you would wake up.