Pudgy

The conversation went like this:
ME: I'm just now seeing the new article on the front of jw.org, about whether Bible prophecy points to literal Israel. That seems to be on everyone's mind.
THEM: Absolutely. One of my studies just asked that question and I went through the usual scriptures, especially Galatians  6. I hadn't seen the article yet. I wish I had.
ME: Yes, the article uses Matthew 23:37 "your house is abandoned to you" and Galatians 6, and Romans 11.
THEM: I think I used Romans 11, too. 
ME: I just noticed that the article says one thing that might be confusing though. “A dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved.” (Romans 11:25, 26) . . . By the expression “all Israel,” Paul meant all of spiritual Israel.
ME: continuing . . . Actually, I don't think that will make sense to most people though. I mean, ultimately, yes, it's spiritual Israel that is saved. We know that from Galatians 6, but in this context people are going to notice that Paul actually was speaking about the two olive trees and the LITERAL Gentiles getting grafted into the tree representing LITERAL Israel. 
THEM: But it means all of spiritual Israel will be saved.
ME: That's the only way it works out in the long run, yes. But doesn't it make more sense that as many of literal Israel as possible get saved because it's these people of the nations who now have Jehovah's blessing, and this makes some of natural Israel jealous? And that helps lead to the salvation of as many natural Israelites as possible. (Romans 11:11)
etc., etc.
Who is right on this point is not important here, it's the next part of the conversation. Next post . . . 

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I always learned that you don't take sides in politics. In our family, this meant that you also don't discuss politics. Discussing it inevitably turns to offering opinions that favor one ideological side over another. But in a recent topic on the forum, several other JWs and/or those who have been associated with JWs brought up issues that appeared to take sides for or against the two major U.S. presidential candidates, as of April 2024. As factual commentary, this doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, if one favors one candidate over the other, this doesn't bother me either.
But I just had a serious discussion about our (JW) view of politics with an 86-year old Witness, who thinks just like my own family always had. It started with the current jw.org front page article on:
Does Bible Prophecy Point to the Modern State of Israel?
When you read the article you also get pointed to other articles:
Will Armageddon Begin in Israel?—What Does the Bible Say?
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Zionists?
If you read more and go to specific links, you can also find articles on Human Rights Organizations, Russia and the European Court, etc.
Taganrog LRO and Others v. Russia
Russia Withdraws From the European Court
Or even end up linked to a mildly amusing article such as:
Who Is to Blame—Russia or the Tourist?
But the conversation, next post, made me think of our general stance on political discussion.

error

Choked, sputtered, and FAILED AGAIN when called out to prove your accusations, Georgie.
What’s that now… 13 times?

You could be wrong, but if possible, I think we would like to rewrite some of our history...

The last time I was here, they were more ambiguous about taking pictures and sharing them with friends, so I literally took a picture of just about everything and I even posted a set of pictures here. But this time they give stricter unambiguous instructions about the personal and family use of pictures taken, even when you can take a still picture vs a video. And the instruction is now explicitly that they cannot be shared on any social media platform. Sorry.
The 4 "museums" at Warwick are still about the same as before. With a few updates and a few older things cut out. The Bible museum is still the best. Probably the best of its kind anywhere. There is a separate segment on the use of the Divine Name in Bible translations, and it's very good.
There are several bits of interactive equipment that were working perfectly in 2018 and 2019 but are now giving trouble. For example, touchscreens that take your input about all kinds of things, such as whether you have worked on a WTS construction project, or which book you studied in preparation for baptism [e.g., Let God Be True, What Does the Bible Really Teach, Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Paradise ...Regained, etc.] and then it gives statistics on many of these things for everyone to see. [e.g. 68% of all visitors this week have worked on a WTS construction project, etc.]
One thing that bothered me a bit was the reduction of material in a special "Watchtower History" museum that had a lot of pre-1919 information about the persecution mostly starting with the 1917 Finished Mystery book. They changed the name and now start it mostly in 1919. And then cut out a large percentage of interesting stuff. 
Also, they have the big wall-sized "Chart of the Ages" in one of the rooms highlighting Russell's early work. And another wall-sized chart called "Bible Chronology" that Russell's early followers also used in their meeting places. Those charts have the dates on them -- even if some of those dates appear to be embarrassing today.
But now there is a new "Chart of the Ages" I have never seen before in the Patterson museum on a similar historical subject but it seems like the dates have been removed. The chart is still titled "CHART OF THE AGES" and the museum label below it says:
How was the training provided [in Russell's time]? The "Chart of the Ages" was used as the primary basis for practice talks. 
It's evidently a wall sized blow-up of a page from one of the publications, because it still has the pictures of the pyramids on it, but on the chart itself, in says in fine print (on the side):
"For Explanation see The Plan of the Ages published by Bible and Tract Soc'y, Brooklyn N.Y."
Also odd that they left out the word "Watchtower," just Bible and Tract Society. I could be wrong, but it looks like it was edited to remove the embarrassing dates that are on the large one at Warwick.
If I remember, I'll look it up unless someone here already knows if there was a "generic" chart of the ages. 

I can see how some of them might start feeling "angry," but I doubt any of them would feel "dejected."
I'll go to the mid-week meeting here tonight. Last one was attended by Brother Tony Morris III, Sister Sydlik the First, Brothers Ken Cook and Bill Malenfant. Maybe I could get them all into the same committee meeting with me if I answer a question inappropriately. LOL. No chance for Morris, I guess. I would only want Sister Sydlik there because she must know what her husband really thought about the WTS explanations of Daniel's 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days. And they didn't disfellowship him for questioning.

The brothers and sisters who have their part in the Bible village museum try to stay in character as if they are in a convention drama even if you ask them a question. They don’t have to of course but some of them have fun with it. One sister doing basket weaving and dyeing yarn for a loom asked me where I was from. I told her New York via California and Missouri and she wasn’t sure if she had heard of such far away places. 

It seems so odd to me that literally about 60% of the male commuter Bethelites have beards. And almost half the regular Bethelites I’ve seen so far. Young and old alike. Even some who appear to be only 16 years old. They are all over 18 of course but they look so much younger now that I am 66. 

It’s “587BCE”. Just kidding. No I covered it in the picture because I don’t think they really want it shared. 

James, that stench will always be a part of your existence, and even a fourth grader can see that. Now, prove God wrong that you can remove it? A six-year-old would understand it.

Prove God wrong?  What does that even mean? As usual your 4th grade replies make no sense at all . Your infantile accusations NEVER have any proof, and I have directly challenged you at least a dozen times.
You ALWAYS choke and sputter when proof is demanded, so no surprise there.
Your quote has FOUR false premisses. Can you find them?
… and “Prove God wrong?”.
What does that even mean?

If WTJWorg wanted to prove its "unwavering commitment" in dealing with CSA, then it should not, as in the case of the Australian branch, hide from its own public the large number of pedophiles who ran rampant in JW congregations all those 60 years and more. Moreover, the GB instructions contributed to the ineffectiveness of elders handling CSA claims within the congregation. Instead of cooperating with the civil authorities, they kept everything secret and even prevented the victims from fighting for minimal justice.
GB has already proven its "transformative" role. After a decades of banning beards and trousers, a "successful transformation" has been carried out. Does anyone who sees only this sliver of reality about GB expect that these are the people "of unwavering morality"  who will be the foundation of the NWO you speak so passionately about? GB people who bring bans and permits about beards and pants, about monthly reports, about greeting and not greeting former JWs, etc. are not the base or foundation of some imaginary new and healthy human society. This type of individuals who are united in a specific group of manipulators of other people's faith and conscience does not deserve trust.
Are you waiting for a transformation? Transformation will not happen tomorrow or in the future. If it didn't start happening in the past or today, then it won't happen. While an individual lives, he/she is or is not part of the transformation. In which transformation are we personally participating? Will there be a transformation due to our activity or passivity? Changes happen with us or without us, that's clear. Don't wait for the NWO, because some other people will live in it. You and I already live in a form of the NWO created by people from the past. To put it simply.

… that’s exactly what I would expect the evil Vicar of Warwick to say when proven wrong … 

Georgie… if you got into your agenda driven, obfuscating mind you were standing on the surface of the Moon, no amount of evidence would convince you otherwise.
Ok, Ok …. here’s a REAL LIFE EXAMPLE OF REAL LIFE EVIDENCE … it has taken the Governing Body SIXTY YEARS to get what is basic common sense to most people, right.
BEARDS
AND HOW DID THEY AFTER SIXTY YEARS OF TYRANNY FINALLY GET IT RIGHT? 
… by adopting the exact same perspective …. 100% …. as shown in the Apostate parody of the Watchtower that I showed earlier …
… about which you had no comment whatsoever, because it was 100% TRUE.
You asked for evidence.
Well … you got it!
…. hard irrefutable evidence from the REAL world.

You have failed your argument because you did not give details about Cornelius and you are (like a jw), assuming you know my beliefs about certain matters and painting me with a general brush.

I agree with you if we lived in a perfect world, but it's not. Does the believer just stand idle and watch others be killed, raped, tortured, etc., and hope it does not come to their family and then to again just sit and watch it happen to your family. 
Stopping the evil actions of others does not make one a raptist, butcherer, war monger, does it?

Acts 10 New International Version (NIV)
Cornelius Calls for Peter
10 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”
4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.
The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”
7 When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8 He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.
Peter’s Vision
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18 They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20 So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”
21 Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?”
22 The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.” 23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.
Peter at Cornelius’s House
The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the believers from Joppa went along. 24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”
30 Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32 Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
We studied this chapter in a men's bible study group yesterday and I would like the JW's view on one certain aspect....Cornelius....believed in God, used by God, a military officer/centurion. 
What I see here is that military service is not frowned upon by God, it actually shows that God can and will use individuals in the military for His will. And an aside from that, bringing in Matthew 28:19,20, since our military is stationed world wide, this would be another avenue God could choose to spread His good news into all the earth.
I welcome everyone's thoughts.
 

I think the real question is:  Did Cornelius continue serving as a military officer afterward?

After a while, seeing unintelligent posts gets boring. 

i suspect about half of the convicted “apostates” are really “double agents”, serving Jehovah’s best interests while wearing the scarlet letter “A”, to precipitate important reform that is sorely needed.
THE classic example is the 2016-2017 apostate generated Watchtower Parody on beards, in which EVERYTHING STATED was 100% true, and diametrically opposed to the teachings and practices of the Society and the Governing Body, and the practices of the global congregations’ body of elders, with VERY few exceptions.
In March of 2024, the Governing Body caved in and recognised officially as true all the apostate points in that 2016-2017 apostate Watchtower parody.
When your agenda is control, bad things happen, and there is tyranny.
When your agenda is TRUTH, good things happen, and there is Liberty!
 

Most people outgrew that “I know you are, but what am I “ tactic in the fourth grade. 
I am old enough to remember when Democrats were people with different philosophies and different outlooks, but were sane. Robert A. Heinlein, Master of Science Fiction I highly respected, was a Democrat … but I have noticed in the last 40 years or so all the Democrats on TV or media reports think EXACTLY LIKE YOU, Georgie and your clone sock puppets like BTK and Alphonse da downvoter, et al.
The standard playbook among the Dims and you is projecting your agendas onto others to see if the bat crap crazy will stick to them as well.
You think you are fooling people, but your silly “blame game” fools no one other than your minions …. and yourself.
Very seldom do I even downvote your presumptuous fallacies because they are so painfully obviously not based on anything that is real.
I have taken your fantasies and directly discredited them with hard facts, one by one by one.
No deflection whatsoever. None. Zero.
Direct frontal attack with comprehensive real world proofs.
Reread the last two pages out loud and you will hear yourself reciting EXACTLY THAT.
You NEVER refute my proofs, because they ARE real proofs, even when challenged to do so.
You always choke, project, deflect, mislead, and lie.
You are like President Bill Clinton. EVERYBODY on all sides knew he was a liar, but were truly astonished how good he was at it.
Refute the facts and prove me wrong.
Proof.
Not projection.

@Pudgy
Thanks for the info.
So, JWs do not celebrate birthdays because it has pagan roots.
But they also shave their beards despite the fact that shaving has pagan roots.

What an inconsistency!
lol

If we want to include the biblical text in a possible answer to this dilemma, then based on the experience of people who "received HS" in the period covered by the Bible, we could come up with elements, indicators of what a person receiving HS looks like, how a person receiving HS behaves and what effects, actions in relation to people and the environment does a person who gets HS have.
Should we read together the Bible passages that describe the HS and the people of Bible time, in order to come to the answer?
Which biblical persons with the power, gift of HS can we compare with a member of GB??
And vice versa,
Which member of GB can we compare to a biblical person who acts under the power, gift of HS??
20  Jehovah then said, ‘Who will fool Aʹhab, so that he will go up and fall at Raʹmoth-gilʹe·ad?’ And one was saying one thing while another said something else. 21  Then a spirit*r came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I will fool him.’ Jehovah asked him, ‘How will you do it?’ 22  He replied, ‘I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’s So he said, ‘You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.’ 23  And now Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours,t but Jehovah has declared calamity for you.”u 1. Kings 22,NWT
 
Ezekiel 14:9 General 9  “‘But if the prophet is fooled and gives a response, it is I, Jehovah, who have fooled that prophet. I will then stretch out my hand against him and annihilate him from my people Israel.

Hold onto your hair!
Read THIS and see if it reminds you of “someone” we know …. !!!!
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/spaced-out-sheila-jackson-lee-tells-texas-students-planet-moon-made-up-gases