bruceq

It is true that we are to be LOYAL to Jehovah and his people whether they are right or wrong. "They replied to Jeremiah: “May Jehovah be a true and faithful witness against us if we do not do exactly as Jehovah your God instructs us through you. Whether good or bad, we will obey the voice of Jehovah our God" Jer. 42:5,6. Jeremiah was imperfect and made mistakes. Yet they were to obey "whether good OR BAD". In the First Century the Christians were also to be LOYAL :"And they continued devoting themselves to the TEACHING of the APOSTLES" Acts 2:42. Yet they also made many MISTAKES and were imperfect people yet God used them as well. The real question of LOYALTY that I am perceiving is WHY after my last posting on YHWH {which just happens to be the TOPIC} you suddenly start attacking Jehovah's Witnesses and go OFF topic? What was in in the previous post I made that made you SO upset to start attacking and NOT even be LOYAL to your own topic about YHWH but to go off topic? Here is the post in full - what was it that made you go off?: "You seem to understand the truth that YHWH was in the Hebrew Scriptures. But you have not provided any original autographs of the NT to prove your point that YHWH was not in the NT. Of course we also cannot prove our point "by those means" since no one has the original mss. So this discussion is pointless as you say. However it occurs to me that we should believe what Jesus taught as you say. And what did he use to teach God's Word? Did he use the NEW TESTAMENT? No. It was not even written yet. Jesus read from and taught from the HEBREW SCRIPTURES which I am under the impression that you agree and as everyone knows that YHWH was in the Hebrew Scriptures which is the ONLY Bible Jesus had. JESUS used such as the Isaiah scroll he first picked up which contained the Divine Name. As for the Bibles message being changed I agree that the message has not but "WORDS" have been such as at 1 John 5:7 which was in the Latin Vulgates Catholic Douay version of 1610 but later versions of Catholic Bibles removed the spurious addition found there. So even the Bible says that this would happen as John said even when he wrote in 98 C.E. {long before 150 C.E.} that already there were some who were once true Christians who left and started teaching false religious things and of course John also said at Revelation 22:18 some of the very last words in the Bible :"" If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll". Notice it did not say no one would ever attempt to remove or add to the Bible but that they would have accountability if they did. And notice it said "WORDS of the scroll" not message of the Bible which God has kept intact. As for your other point on Love I agree that Love would identify God's People not debates about words in the Bible which by the way YOU started" . John 13:35.

As for your other point on Love I agree that Love would identify God's People not arguments or debates about words in the Bible which by the way YOU started . John 13:35

I put this up merely for research purposes. I do not endorse the entire research anymore than the Watchtower Society endorses everything mentioned in the hundreds of books they also quote from. I do not consider the points I gleaned from it "devastating" to any position as I try to keep an open mind as long as it is in accord with Jehovah's Organization.

You seem to understand the truth that YHWH was in the Hebrew Scriptures. But you have not provided any original autographs of the NT to prove your point that YHWH was not in the NT. Of course we also cannot prove our point "by those means" since no one has the original mss. So this discussion is pointless as you say. However it occurs to me that we should believe what Jesus taught as you say. And what did he use to teach God's Word? Did he use the NEW TESTAMENT? No. It was not even written yet. Jesus read from and taught from the HEBREW SCRIPTURES which I am under the impression that you agree and as everyone knows that YHWH was in the Hebrew Scriptures which is the ONLY Bible Jesus had. JESUS used such as the Isaiah scroll he first picked up which contained the Divine Name. As for the Bibles message being changed I agree that the message has not but "WORDS" have been such as at 1 John 5:7 which was in the Latin Vulgates Catholic Douay version of 1610 but later versions of Catholic Bibles removed the spurious addition found there. So even the Bible says that this would happen as John said even when he wrote in 98 C.E. {long before 150 C.E.} that already there were some who were once true Christians who left and started teaching false religious things and of course John also said at Revelation 22:18 some of the very last words in the Bible :"" If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll". Notice it did not say no one would ever attempt to remove or add to the Bible but that they would have accountability if they did. And notice it said "WORDS of the scroll" not message of the Bible which God has kept intact. As for your other point on Love I agree that Love would identify God's People not debates about words in the Bible which by the way YOU started . John 13:35.

Yes that one is good and also his research into "IAO" as the Greek version of "Jehovah" and what he says about how it may have appeared in original NT authographs. https://www.academia.edu/30967321/_The_god_Iao_and_his_connection_with_the_Biblical_God_with_special_emphasis_on_the_manuscript_4QpapLXXLevb_Ο_θεός_Ιαώ_και_η_σχέση_του_με_τον_Βιβλικό_Θεό_με_ιδιαίτερη_εστίαση_στο_χειρόγραφο_4QpapLXXLevb_Vetus_Testamentum_et_Hellas_Vol._4_2017_pp._xx It is similar to George Howards ideas of the Tetragram in the NT except this guy goes into much more research into the subject

Insider have you ever read the research of Pavlos Vasileiadis Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Theology - Biblical Studies, Department ... He has very interesting research that is not in print but is on the Tetragrammaton including in the New Testament?

Yes you may quote from my ebay site, also there is now alot more updated info from 2017 that many may not realize since it is not in print but only online in the NWT Study edition on JW.ORG: Appendix C C1The Restoration of the Divine Name in the “New Testament” C2Verses Where the Name Jehovah Appears in Direct or Indirect Quotations C3Verses Where the Name Jehovah Does Not Appear in Direct or Indirect Quotations C4Translations and Reference Works Supporting the Use of the Divine Name in the “New Testament”

Yes I did not mean the ones in other languages full copies. The ones I offer are only in English. Sorry for any confusion. The couple were like "Emphatic Diaglott" and a few others.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Psalms-Dead-Sea-Scrolls-11Q5-Tetragrammaton-Watchtower-Research-Jehovah-/391764464181?hash=item5b36fb5235:g:qbgAAOSwUKxYYqre

P52 aka Papyrus Rylands 457 is the mss you are asserting in your last sentence and you well know that "kyrious" does not even occur in the fragment at all so can not be used to prove the point as it only contains John 18:31-33. You can look it up on the one I sell on ebay and see for yourself. As for "proof" you also know that the hundreds of books I listed in the previous posts have the proof you need and NONE of then were even produced by the Watchtower Society. Remember you do not have any original mss. from the New Testament the same way that we do not so neither of us can "prove" by those means but that does not mean our way is wrong and yours must be right. The Bible was written by Jews including the apostles as Jewish Christians who were meticulous in translating the Bible from quotations in the Old Testament. So when they saw the Tetragrammaton in Psalm 110:1 in the Septuagint they would have NOT changed the Bible's words to read "Lord"now would they since to change the Bible is a sin that a Jew would not do. {See Matthew 22:44}. Yes as everyone now knows the original Septuagint written by the Jews contain the Tetragrammaton. If you do not believe me then look at my site on ebay as I also offer the Manuscripts there that contain the Tetragrammaton in the Septuagint copies that came directly from the "Israeli Antiquities Authority" from the Dead Sea Scrolls Museum in Israel. Yes the so-called Christians after the First Century DID change "YHWH" to "Kyrios" as the Bible clearly shows that after the 'apostles" a falling away would occur. So using any "proof" after the First Century would of course be suspect since they are not original. And this is the very reason now dozens of complete Bibles now contain "YHWH" in various forms in the New Testament whereas in 1950 when the NWT was made only a couple did. It is because of the evidence over the years from the original LXX that so many has as can be seen from the over 100 Translations I offer on ebay that contain the Divine Name in the New Testament.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/14/homeland-security-warns-rise-right-wing-extremism.html http://humanevents.com/2009/04/17/i-am-an-extremist/ Also the link in the article. Also google "I am extremist by oliver north"

A report from the United States Homeland Security back in 2009 has some interesting comments. I Am an Extremist Thursday , April 16, 2009 By Col. Oliver North Washington, D.C. — According to the U.S. government, I am an extremist. I am a Christian and meet regularly with other Christians to study God's word. My faith convinces me the prophesies in the Holy Bible are true. I believe in the sanctity of human life, oppose abortion and want to preserve marriage as the union of a man and a woman. I am a veteran with skills and knowledge derived from military training and combat. I own several firearms, frequently shoot them, buy ammunition and consider efforts to infringe on my Second Amendment rights to be wrong and unconstitutional. I fervently support the sovereignty of the United States, am deeply concerned about our economy, increasingly higher taxes, illegal immigration, soaring unemployment and actions by our government that will bury my children beneath a mountain of debt. Apparently, all this makes me a "right-wing extremist." At least that's what it says in the April 7, 2009 "assessment" issued by the Office of Intelligence and Analysis at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The nine-page report, titled, "Right-wing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment," is full of warnings about American citizens who share any of my background or subscribe to the beliefs above. It is one of the most alarming documents produced by our government that I have ever read. Evidently neither you nor I were ever supposed to read this "assessment." At the bottom of the cover page is a warning that it is "not to be released to the public, the media or other personnel who do not have a valid need-to-know." We're Americans. We have a need to know what's going on in our government — especially in an administration that promised to be "transparent." The "assessment" purports to alert law enforcement officials that "right-wing extremists" — the term is used more than 35 times — are intent on exploiting Americans who have strongly held beliefs on everything from Christian faith to rising unemployment, U.S. sovereignty and the Second Amendment. It vilifies those of us in these categories by references to neo-Nazis, racists, militias, white-supremacists and other "hate groups." Notably, the report includes a warning that right-wing extremism "may include groups or individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration." Though the report proffers a passing reference to the First Amendment, it is replete with bias against conservative thought, writing and communications. On page 3, law enforcement authorities are warned, "right-wing extremist chatter on the Internet continues to focus on the economy, the perceived (emphasis added) loss of U.S. jobs in the manufacturing and construction sectors, and home foreclosures." This is a frightening acknowledgement that political speech is being monitored in America. It is also wrong. It's not "perception." It is fact. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the manufacturing and construction sectors have lost 161,000 jobs and 126,000 jobs, respectively, in the last month alone. In its "Key Findings" the DHS manuscript boldly charges "right-wing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about several emergent issues" and warns that "the possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks." Under the heading "Disgruntled Military Veterans" the report alleges, "right-wing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to exploit their skills and knowledge derived from military training and combat. These skills and knowledge have the potential to boost the capabilities of extremists — including lone wolves or small terrorist cells — to carry out violence." These unsubstantiated claims are followed by reminders that Timothy McVeigh — the 1995 Oklahoma City bomber — was a military veteran. Omitted is any reference to the fact that McVeigh was simply one of more than 40 million law abiding veterans of the U.S. Armed Forces. Thirteen lines after this egregious, unconscionable slander against those of us who are military combat veterans, DHS makes the stunning charge that, "lone wolves and small terrorist cells embracing violent right-wing extremist ideology are the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States." According to this DHS "assessment," the most dangerous threat we face here at home isn't from radical imams preaching violence in U.S. mosques and madrassas, Islamists recruiting in our prisons, Somali terrorists enticing young immigrants to become suicide bombers or Hamas, Hezbollah or Al Qaeda operatives plotting mass murder. No, according to DHS, the real threat comes from what our government labels "right-wing extremist ideology." President Obama should publicly disavow this report and fire the officials responsible for issuing it. Those who prepare his remarks for the occasion should insert in the teleprompter, Senator Barry Goldwater's words on the subject: "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." — Oliver North hosts War Stories on FOX News Channel and is the author of the new best-seller, "American Heroes: In The War Against Radical Islam." He has just returned from assignment in Afghanistan. ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. Anyone note the very first sentence. It said: "I am a Christian and meet regularly with other Christians to study God's word. My faith convinces me the prophesies in the Holy Bible are true. I believe in the sanctity of human life, oppose abortion and want to preserve marriage as the union of a man and a woman. Now look at the anti-extremism laws in Russia and read the unclassified document from the U.S. Homeland Security. Interesting Just one event reported around the world could easily make all religions extremist in every country without regard to freedom of religion. After all Russia itself SAYS it has freedom of religion.

Since ban, persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses is 'worse than ever' Judges of Russia’s Supreme Court attend a hearing in Moscow on Jan. 23, 2014. (Reuters/Maxim Shemetov) Lauren Markoe Religion News Service | May. 18, 2017 PrintemailPDF Since the Russian Supreme Court labeled Jehovah’s Witnesses an "extremist" group, vandals have targeted followers and their banks accounts have been frozen. Stones were thrown at a St. Petersburg assembly hall and someone tried to burn the Moscow home of a Jehovah’s Witness to the ground, a church spokesman said. The ruling seems to have emboldened those who resent and fear the Witnesses, a religious minority that has suffered more than most in President Vladimir Putin’s Russia, where the Russian Orthodox Church enjoys the backing of the state and harassment of gays and other marginalized groups has spiked in recent years. “We were hoping the court would realize that we are not a threat,” said Robert Warren, a spokesman for the Witnesses based in their New York world headquarters. “But now the environment is worse than ever." The court decision, say Jehovah’s Witnesses officials and human rights experts, has not been fully enforced. Worship, reports from the country indicate, continues at some of the "Kingdom Halls" that serve Russia's more than 100,000 Witnesses. But the possibility that the government will completely shut down the Jehovah's Witnesses looms. Don't miss a thing. Sign up for emails from NCR. While Jehovah's Witnesses prepare an appeal — and take heart in the condemnation of the court ruling from national and international bodies, including the U.S. State Department — they are not optimistic about a reversal of the ruling. And they worry for their brethren over the border in Kazakhstan, a former Soviet republic. “In some ways the situation in Kazakhstan has deteriorated even faster,” said Felix Corley, an Oslo-based religious rights activist who edits the Forum 18 News Service, which tracks abuses in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Earlier this month, a 61-year-old Jehovah’s Witness from Kazakhstan — a retired bus driver battling cancer — was sentenced to five years in prison and banned from preaching for three years after he gets out. A court convicted Teymur Akhmedov of inciting “ethnic, social, religious, family, and racial hatred.” Jehovah's Witnesses said he peacefully shared his beliefs with a group of young men who asked him questions about his faith. Witnesses are working on Akhmedov's appeal and say that since the Russian Supreme Court decision, anti-Witness propaganda has spread in Kazakhstan. Recently a popular television channel there reported that Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia plan a bombing, and speculated that the same could happen in Kazakhstan, said Bekzat Smagulov, a Jehovah's Witness and spokesman on the Akhmedov case. "Most people are afraid," Smagulov said of Kazakhstan's 18,000 Witnesses. In Russia, where authorities have officially declared the group illegal, fears run even higher. The surveillance and prosecution of the Witnesses began decades ago and involves all levels of government and law enforcement — from the Justice Ministry to the FSB (the successor to the KGB) to local police. But Russia can't honestly fear violence from the Jehovah's Witnesses, said Corley. "I cannot believe they think they're going to go out and kill people." Yet the court last month, after six days and 30 hours of testimony, deemed the Jehovah's Witnesses a threat to the state, commanded a halt to all their activity and allowed for the seizure of their property. Rachel Denber, deputy director of the Europe and Central Asia division at Human Rights Watch, the international nonprofit, called the case against the Witnesses "absurd." Specifically, Russian prosecutors accused the group of breaking a 2002 anti-extremism law — a statute human right activists say the government uses to harass groups Putin and his allies disfavor. That law prohibits any group, except the Orthodox Church and a few other traditions, from claiming the true path to salvation. The Jehovah's Witnesses, like many denominations, make such a claim, Denber said, but not in a way that should land them on the same list of outlaws that includes al-Qaida and the Islamic State group. The Witnesses' Western ties are also particularly suspect in today's Russia, which seeks to challenge the West as an international power broker, Denber said. More Witnesses live in the U.S. than any other country. And though Jehovah's Witnesses regard Christ as their founder, the modern-day group formed in Pittsburgh, where a group of Bible students in the late 19th century began writing down the Witnesses' beliefs. Among those beliefs: pacifism. The world's 8 million Witnesses — who can be found in the Americas, Europe, Africa and Asia — eschew violence and don't join the military, which makes some question their patriotism even when they find alternative ways to serve their countries. But their pacifism also makes the extremist label all the more confounding to those in the Western world who know the Witnesses as the well-mannered people who ring doorbells and ask if they can share a copy of The Watchtower, the group's journal. And though the Witnesses have been harassed in many nations, in Russia they suffer more acutely and are commonly described as a cult — a group that rejects much of Orthodox Christianity, including its trinitarian understanding of God. Another attribute of the Witnesses may threaten their persecutors. "They're very well-organized," Denber said.

Orthodox activist criticizes Jehovah's Witnesses in Russian parliament FAMOUS SECT SCHOLAR ACCUSES JEHOVISTS OF DENYING CONSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURE AND RIGHT TO INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM Interfax-Religiia, 17 May 2017 By its prohibition of participation in elections, the Jehovah's Witnesses sect denies the constitutional structure of the state and human rights, and therefore it does not have the right to legitimate existence, declared the famous sect scholar Alexander Dvorkin during the first expanded session of the inter-fractional deputies' group for defense of Christian values. "Jehovah's Witnesses forbid their devotees to choose even to go to elections. This means that the organization does not recognize, in principle, the constitutional structure of the country. Thus why should they occupy a legal position?" A. Dvorkin said at a session in the State Duma on Wednesday. At the same time, he emphasized that the Jehovah's Witnesses violate human rights also. "In the first place, they attract people through deceit, which is a violation of their rights. Second, when a person enters into the organization, a most strict control over their activity begins. What kind of family can there be if even spouses are constantly spying on one another! Jehovah's Witnesses have a dossier on each of their members and all these files are continually sent to the headquarters in the U.S.A. This is a gross violation of rights. When the life and health of people are placed under threat because of the absurd prohibition on blood transfusion, this is not a personal choice but pressure of the organization," he said. The sect scholar said that the struggle with the Jehovah's Witnesses is only the beginning of the struggle with sectarianism, since there also exist Scientology and other similar organizations. (tr. by PDS, posted 18 May 2017)

Couple copes with hatred toward Jehovah's Witnesses ReligioPolis, 10 May 2017 Belatedly by several days it was reported that in the village of Lutsino of the Odintsov district of Moscow province a still unidentified perpetrator set fire to two houses in which a family of Jehovah's Witnesses lived. The news agency of the religious organization, which has recently been declared by the Russian Supreme Court to be "extremist," reported this event quite laconically: "On 30 April 2017 another act of vandalism was committed with respect to adherents of the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. In the village of Lutsino (Moscow province), one of the local residents who had previously spoken out negatively against this religion, in an inebriated condition, threw a bottle with a flammable liquid into a house where a Jehovah's Witnesses family lived. The resultant fire destroyed two houses and the cars of the believers. The perpetrator of the arson was arrested in hot pursuit." However, this is typical of Witnesses, who usually are not inclined to describe in detail overt persecutions against them in order to elicit sympathy. But it was possible to elucidate in "hot pursuit" something of the calamity that befell our religious compatriots. Having returned from a meeting with their fellow believers, the Jehovah's Witnesses Dmitry D. and his wife Veronika P. learned that in one of the houses a wake for a recently deceased resident was going on, after which there began a traditional brawl. Veronica's father passed by the drunken and brawling peasants and was wounded, although not seriously. While conversing with him, the couple was approached by a participant in the brawl, a neighbor who could barely stand up, and when he saw that they did not particularly want to converse with him he shouted that now he would set them on fire. Dmitry and Veronika did not attach special significance to this, considering everything to be the result of drunken courage, and they went home. But several minutes later, looking out from the balcony, Veronica saw that the reeling neighbor had shown up again, who threw a bottle through the open doors of the garage attached to the house. Then she heard a clap and saw flames gushing up. In the twenty minutes until fire fighters arrived, while the couple tried to save something out of the burning home, and then from the neighboring home of Veronica's parents, the fired reached a stage that it was impossible to put it out. As a result, two houses and the garage with cars burned down. Neighbors said that when the police arrived they put the arsonist in handcuffs. But this embittered him even more and he continued to threaten the believers whose home he burned that his "revenge" will not end with this. A couple of days later, after sleeping and coming to understand finally what he had done, the arsonist came running to ask for forgiveness, and he begged that they not compose a statement, promising to completely compensate the damages. He said that his attitude toward the believers and their religion had changed and that he even "envied" their faith, because they were not hostile to him regardless of what had happened, etc. Despite that neighbors tried to persuade the Jehovah's Witnesses not to give in to his exhortations, the believers forgave the arsonist and promised him that they would not file charges under the law. As far as can be discerned, the victims themselves do not insist that the neighbor set fire to their home by virtue of religious hatred, considering that he "was only an agent in Satan's hands." But they now do not intend to live any longer even in an rebuilt house and they are planning to leave Russia. It is not very difficult to posit that such a thing would be unthinkable in a relatively normal situation in the country. If there had not been a prior broad anti-cult campaign, initiated by the "titular" church, if there had not been a systematic administrative persecution of religious minorities by bureaucrats, if there had not been, finally, a decision of the Supreme Court of the RF that was not based on either the law nor fact for the liquidation of the allegedly "extremist" organizations of Jehovah's Witnesses, such a degree of blunt hatred toward believers would not have arisen even in drunk psychopaths. In soviet times, even in the period of the "Khrushchev persecutions" of religion, people treated their believing compatriots not simply loyally but with sympathy, considering them to be unjustly oppressed. In this regard the current wave of godlessness may be considered to be a qualitatively new phenomenon for Russia and a madness that is leading the country in an unknown direction. In essence, for the first time in all history, there are suffering in the country not only religious organizations and believing people but religion in and of itself, regardless of the confession of its adherents. The phrase that was uttered by somebody and took root already among the people: "What the bolsheviks did not manage to do with faith in soviet time is now being brought successfully to conclusion," alas seems not to be far from reality. When people who are beating themselves on the chest, declaring that they believe in God, are not able to manage their hatred toward compatriots who also believe in God, God turns his face from them. (tr. by PDS, posted 17 May 2017) Background article:Vigilante action against Jehovah's Witnesses' propertyMay 8, 2017

Jehovah's Witnesses report negative effects of court's ruling NEW INCIDENTS OF VANDALISM AGAINST JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: VORONEZH AND SVERDLOVSK PROVINCES Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, 15 May 2017 Late in the evening of 6 May 2017, unidentified persons drove up in an automobile to a residence on MPS St. in the village of Novokhopersky (Voronezh province) and broke glass in the apartment of a local resident who professes the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. The action was accompanied by shouts whose meaning the woman was not about to make out. In addition, in the night of 14 May 2017 in the city of Ekaterinburg, on the porch of a building in which Jehovah's Witnesses conducted worship services, unidentified persons drew an insulting inscription. The decision of the Supreme Court against the organizations of Jehovah's Witnesses, issued on 20 April 2017 and not having taken legal effect, evoked a wave of aggressive actions against adherents of this religion. Incidents occurred also in St. Petersburg, in Kaliningrad, Moscow, Penza, Rostov, and Tula provinces, and in Krasnoyarsk territory. (tr. by PDS, posted 15 May 2017) RIGHT TO ALTERNATIVE CIVILIAN SERVICE CONTINUES TO BE DENIED BELIEVERS, WITH APPEAL TO RUSSIAN SUPREME COURT DECISION Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, 15 May 2017 Another incident of the violation of the right to alternative civilian service occurred in Chuvashia. On 12 May 2017, in the city of Shumerlya, a draft commission refused the constitutional right to alternative civilian service for 18-year-old Avel Lukin, for whom performing military service contradicts his convictions. One of the members of the draft commission, appealing to the decision of the Supreme Court against the organizations of Jehovah's witnesses, said to the young man: "You may keep your convictions to yourself, and your faith, too." Avel was issued a summons to appear on 22 May 2017 for dispatch to processing for military service. He intends to appeal the decision of the draft commission. (tr. by PDS, posted 15 May 2017) AFTER DECISION OF SUPREME COURT, PRESSURE ON JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES' CHILDREN INCREASES IN SCHOOLS Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, 15 May 2017 Against the background of the judicial proceedings against organizations of Jehovah's Witnesses, several children who are being trained in accordance with biblical morality have begun experiencing unprecedented pressure on the part of teachers and police personnel. On 28 March 2017, in the city of Ufa (Bashkortostan), a police officer, A. Rozhkin, arrived at the home of a family with several children and, finding the oldest son, asked for a written explanation regarding their religious confession. When the mother approached, with her daughters, the officer demanded explanations of why the woman "involves minor children in extremist activity" (which does not correspond to reality). The woman refused to provide an explanation, and the older daughter began recording the officer's words on her cell phone camera. Subsequently the police have continued to put pressure on the family. On 17 April 2017, in one of the schools of Rodionovo-Nesvetaisk district of Rostov province, the class director summoned out of class a 14-year-old girl to the office of the school's director, who had previously taken her telephone from her. In the office, police officer A. Yunyaev, and also a man in civilian clothes, began telling the girl that her Mama forces her to go to a "terrorist organization," in which "they are robbed" and "taught to kill people." The official brought the child to tears by frightening the child, hurting her feelings, and falsely claiming that the Jehovah's Witnesses allegedly would "strap her up and send her to blow up the school." They urged the girl "to rat on her Mama and not go to meetings." "If you wish, read the Bible at home, and do not go anywhere," they said. "Just read our Bible, from the Church." On 24 April 2017, in one of the schools of Pizhansk district of Kirov province, two pupils of the sixth grade, sisters from a family of Jehovah's Witnesses, in a music class refused to perform a song whose text extols military actions and murder (which contradicts the religious convictions of the family). Although the teacher knows the views of this family, she sent the children from the classroom to search for another song, with a raised voice, which brought them to tears. In front of the whole class the teacher said to the girls: "You are now banned, and we are fed up with your religion." Later in a conversation with the girls' Mama, the teacher said: "You are now extremists and there will be no mercy." Nevertheless, the family managed to get agreement on performance of a song about nature, which does not contradict their views. The teacher graded the girls down "for a song off-topic." According to legislation in effect in Russia, parents have the preemptive right over all other persons to teach and train their children. It is on the parents that the Family Code imposes the duty of concern for the "spiritual and moral development of their children." (tr. by PDS, posted 15 May 2017)

World opinion favors Jehovah's Witnesses versus Russian state JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES IN RUSSIA: NEWS OF THE DAY AND LATEST FORECASTS REGARDNG ACTIVITY OF THE ORGANIZATION by Viktor Boiarchuk FTimes, 13 May 2017 The period from 20 April to the present was extremely troublesome for people of faith. Each person found for himself a hidden subtext in the Russian Supreme Court's decision to rule the activity of the "Administrative Center of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia" to be extremist, which will entail the closure of the organization. To a great extent, this means that nobody will see on the streets of his city kind elderly women and friendly young people distributing among the populace brochures about the imminent advent of the Kingdom of God, ftimes.ru reports. It would seem that these people could evoke such emotions connected with extremism that would seem such as would not offend even flies. Which is really a rejection of their persistent chatter and peculiar opinion about the role of man in God's purposes. Evidently, the verdict of the Supreme Court of the RF was dictated by serious grounds for its adoption. Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia: Reaction of the international community The voice of the noisy "Jehovists," as they are contemptuously called in Russia and other Slavic countries, was immediately heard by their fellow believers in other countries and also by the legal community of Europe. Reaction to the decision of the Supreme Court turned out to be extremely negative. The German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, along with the Minister for Human Rights of the European Union, Joyce Annelay, stressed that if the government of the Russian federation will not give heed to the fundamental human rights and freedom of citizens of their own country, then it should give head at least to its own independently drafted legislation. And this legislation, in its turn, confirms the freedom of each person to free expression and religious confession. More than 170,000 followers of the faith of the Jehovah's Witnesses experience great dissonance when comparing these words with real facts. Of course, the lawyers of the Administrative Center of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia can still file an appeal against the decision of the Russian Supreme Court in the European Court for Human Rights. Most likely the appeal will be granted, although it will not be a surprise for anyone if the Supreme Court does not submit to it and the state, even in the event that the verdict is challenged, will implement a tactic of passive displacement of followers of this faith to the margins of society, which still is a violation of human rights. The development of the conflict within the state will only serve for a yet greater negative view of Russia in the world as a country where such concepts as tolerance and respect for others' faith are alien. Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia: Earlier episodes of struggle of authorities in Russia with the Jehovists Sooner or later, this or a similar decision will have to stir up the world community, since pressure on this organization on the part of the state has been conducted for a rather long time at the regional level. If the court's decision fails to be appealed at the supreme instance, then the organization will have to be liquidated and all its property will be transferred to the state. Fellow believers throughout the world are expressing sympathy and are ready to provide help of any type in order to preserve the organization in Russia. However, back in soviet times Russia was able to fight against the Jehovists. Officially the organization appeared in Russia back in the time of Nicholas II. In soviet times adherents of this faith were persecuted and subjected to repressions and imprisoned in Siberian and Central Asian camps. Jehovah's Witnesses themselves did not offer resistance, since this violates their convictions. In our time the Russian authorities, repeating the persecutions of the early 1990s, in 2004 tried to prohibit the activity of the organization, based on incitement of hatred, manifestation of disrespect to other faiths, and distribution of forbidden materials. As is known, the brochures "Awake" and "Watchtower" do not contain any extremist materials, so that one can draw the conclusion that the Supreme Court's decision was dictated by abject adherence to popular prejudices and stereotypes. In any case, it is clear that the international community will not let pass such a violation of the rights of believing people. (tr. by PDS, posted 16 May 2017)

26] Don't forget that YOU are also proof since you were made in the "image of God". Oh wait you are only ONE human? Guess that REMINDS us that God is NOT a Trinity. 27] I am also proof since I am a Father a Son and a Grandfather. 28] Also I found three fleas on my cat the other day so he must be a Trinity If you can find NINES then according to the Egyptians it would be an ennead a Triple Trinity of three groups of three. There were an incredible number of Gods and Goddesses in Ancient Egypt, one for almost every situation and place [see first post]. Many of the Gods began as local deities and were later organised and merged with others to form either a Triad or an Ennead (nine). http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/thegods.html

I agree with you, consider this: SIMPLICITY is key: It is true that the intent of the person performing the {Shaw-kaw} or {Proskyneo} must be taken into account. For example John who did it to the angel in Revelation obviously had the wrong intent but in some other areas such as Num. 22:31 :" Then Jehovah uncovered Baʹlaam’s eyes,+and he saw Jehovah’s angel standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand. At once he bowed low and prostrated himself on his face." Why did not the angel here say "do not do that"? Because the angel was representing as a spokesman for God. Just like the angel who spoke for God to Moses said "I am the God of Abraham ,Issac and Jacob" at the burning bush. It was not God but an angel who actually "SAID" the "words". Acts 7:30-38. {IE : Secretary [word] and buisnessman [God} relationship}. This type of relationship is used many many times in the Bible whenever God communicates with humans for the reason "NO MAN CAN SEE GOD AT ANY TIME" John 1:18 this is why He uses angels and Jesus as His WORD and why Jesus and angels are NOT GOD since humans can and have seen them. This is why Jesus is called the {Logos} or WORD of God. He speaks for God as His representative or spokesman just as other angels {messengers} have done. Therefore John 1:1 can be translated either way with no argument. In other words "In the beginning was the Angel and the Angel was with God and the Angel was God {or a god}". He was God in the same sense other angels were by being the WORD or spokesman for God and he was a god by being a creature higher than humans. So there is NO reason to argue about that Scripture and have "debates about words" because docrinally it can be translated either way with no problem to Jehovah's Witnesses. This line of reasoning has worked for me with several Trinitarians who were hung up on passages that said Jesus was God and yet Jesus was obviously inferior since he prayed to him and was "obedient" to God. There is absolutely no reason to argue with people over "debates about words" SIMPLICITY is the KISS method that Jesus used so effectively. IMITATE JESUS.

A few weeks ago I tried this approach with someone at the door {I usually never get anyone anymore mentioning the trinity even tho I live in the Bible belt}. Anyway the first Scripture he brought up was of course Jn. 1:1 so I said "Well who wrote that Scripture. He said "John" and I said and John was a Jew and Jews do not believe in a Trinity so I am afraid you will have to find another Scripture since he would never write about or teach something he did not believe in himself. So he went to Hebrews Chp.1 and of course the same thing occurred only about Paul. He then said "Well it dosen't matter what Scripture I use then does it" Then I said "Ya thats the point, the Trinity is not in the Bible"! It is funny however to see someone act like a squirrel trying to cross a road. They usually end up pretty flat. Anyway I actually have a return visit on him and he is now much less argumentative and wants to learn more about the Witnesses from Witnesses.

Sorry but to me the Truth is simple and I try to imitate my Great Teacher The basic truths of God’s Word are not incomprehensible or complicated. In prayer, Jesus said: “I publicly praise you, Father, . . . because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.” (Matthew 11:25) Jehovah has caused his purposes to be revealed to those with sincere and humble hearts. (1 Corinthians 1:26-28) Thus, simplicity is a key feature of Bible truth. In forums there can be an “extravagance of speech” which could be intimidating, especially to those with limited education or ability like me. (1 Corinthians 2:1, 2) Jesus’ example shows that simple words carefully chosen can convey the truth with much power. It also often helps in not "debating about words" by being simple. And I am therefore trying not to be argumentative with people here. The simple statement that the Bible was written by Jews who do not believe in a Trinity I think goes much farther then debating and arguing over words. I have had tremendous success with that approach in field service over the past 40 years. To tell an experience when I was a teenager back in 1978 my next door neighbor was a Pentecostal Born-Again Fundamentalist who challenged me {a Jehovah's Witness} to have a debate on the Trinity. We gave each other one month to get all the info we could to defend our positions. During that time I went a little overboard {It was summer vacation and I had alot of free time} I read the ENTIRE Bible and wrote down every Scripture that would contradict the idea of a Trinity. But then I didn't stop there as I knew he would say "Well that is your Bible" so I acquired 50 different Translations and checked all of them against the Scriptures I found. Anyway after the month was over we came together and he showed me one page on paper with about 10 Scriptures. I showed him my kitchen table filled with 50 Bibles and 250 pages of 1,200 Scriptures against the Trinity. Well after he saw that do you know what he said? "Well I have faith that God is a Trinity" and didn't even want to discuss it further and his mother said he could not be my friend anymore ! After that I decided to simplify my approach to Witnessing although I still have those Scriptures bound in a book entitled "Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah". {never published as I didn't feel worthy enough to do so with my research at age 15}. Anyway reading the Bible with the intent of debating with others is not the proper way to get to "know God" as I learned by trial and error. Jn. 17:3.

Sorry meant Watchtower authored. Thanks for the correction. None of the books I listed were published by the Watchtower Society.

I agree. The Bible writers did not believe in a Trinity.

These are just books I have used, I do not endorse any except the BIBLE. I thought I made myself clear on that. I find no problem researching other books then ones written by Witnesses as most of the books I listed are also quoted by Watchtower publications. I offer these so people can check for themselves what is written within the context of the material and who wrote it. Of course there are inaccuracies in all books that are not the Bible because they are not the inspired WORD of GOD. Jn. 17:17. These are SECULAR books. But Bible Truth is found in the Bible. "As a general point about your list, I suggest you go through each book and each of your favorite claims in those books and consider: "Before trusting it, ask: (1) Who published this material? What are the author’s credentials? (2) Why was this published? What motivated the writer? Is there any bias? (3) Where did the author get the information? Does he supply sources that can be checked? (4) Is the information current?" - Watchtower, 8/15/2011, p.4" Very good point and should that also be done with the BIBLE? As you quoted above by that criteria JEWS WROTE THE BIBLE and JEWS do not believe in a Trinity. So no one can find it there no matter what. (1) Who published this material? What are the author’s credentials? The Bible was written by Jews who were under inspiration from God and did not believe in a Trinity. (2) Why was this published? What motivated the writer? Is there any bias? God the author wanted to let us know who he is {not a Trinity} and have a relationship with him. (3) Where did the author get the information? Does he supply sources that can be checked? Inspired by GOD. So you cannot argue with it or make the author believe something other than he really believes in. (4) Is the information current?" - Watchtower, 8/15/2011, p.4" The Bible is for ALL ages as it comes from the "ONLY true God" Jn. 17:3

Luke 4:7, 8 - A JEW who does not believe in a Trinity Revelation 22:9 - John was also a JEW who did not believe in a Trinity Hebrews 1:6 - Paul was a JEW who did not believe in a Trinity Revelation 5:13, 14 - And once again John was a JEW and not a Trinitarian Nice try but it was not just the Old Testament that was written by Jews. John was a Jew as were all the Apostles and therefore ALL the Bible Writers you QUOTED from and even Jesus was a Jew and Jews do not believe in the Trinity. So you will not find it there no matter what but PLEASE keep trying {Give us more Scriptures} as this is hilarious as you are trying to "make" a writer believe what he himself does not believe in.