James Thomas Rook Jr.

OK ... I gave it my best shot already .... but I have been known to beat a dead horse .. which of course is NOT torture. I just got back from Golden Corral where I chewed parts of a dead cow into mush.

I was speaking ONLY to the specific legal and moral culpability for torture .... When the Americans incinerated the Japanese, on the battlefields or in their cities... the intent was NOT to torture ... but to kill. (And as an aside, because the Americans were attacked first, the RESPONSE was self-defense, NOT murder.... The responsibility for all the deaths on BOTH sides of the conflict rests with the Japanese Military High Command, and with all those that gave their allegiance and support to that Empire.) OF COURSE they were tortured to death .... but the persons killing them had no INTENT to torture them ... just to destroy their ability to wage war, in justifiable self-defense. No legal culpability. This is why today, it is recognized under the Geneva Convention, that napalming someone from aerial bombardment is legal (in warfare), but dousing them with gasoline and setting them on fire is a war crime ... IF the intent is to cause them pain. Legal and moral CULPABILITY for torture is ONLY torture, if the INTENT is to torture .... I strongly suspect that bullets tearing pieces out of someone and punching big bloody holes in flesh is no picnic. If I tortured someone to save lives, my INTENT would be to torture them ... OF COURSE. .

Rather than dissect a million words whose source is ambiguous, or accuracy lost or obscured by the sands of time ... I have found that plain old common sense (... which apparently is not all that common...), will clarify many things ... in everyday life, and in Theology. 1.) Can a God of Love, and who loves Justice, torture someone forever? NO. 2.) Would a Sovereign God allow his disobedient children to be tormented forever by his Arch Enemy, forever? NO. You can fill in items 3.) through 20+.) yourself .... what would a rational, thinking being do? I have no problems torturing someone to extract information to save lives, etc. but if some terrorist exploded an atom bomb in Charlotte, NC, as an example, torture would serve no purpose. ... AFTER THE FACT. Torture is ONLY torture, if the INTENT is to torture .... just as first degree murder is completely different than an accidental homicide. In both instances someone died. That fine point may be, however, lost on the recipient, such as the Japanese soldiers that were incinerated to death on Iwo Jima with flame throwers, or the children who were burned to death in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atomic bombs, August 1945. Intent makes ALL the difference! (..although perhaps not to the person(s) who died.). You can have a God who is an insane, sadistic, petulant monster .... or you can have one that personifies Love and Justice, and righteousness ...... but NOT the same one. That is why there CANNOT be a hell of torment ... and in a Universe where individual mankind will eventually live forever, for those that understand that .... .. simple death is the Ultimate Torment.

Is Tartarus like Limbo?

Why? .... because "Guardians of the Doctrine" ALWAYS forget that the acronym G.O.D. does not make them ..... GOD.

TTH: After REPEATED requests for a specific scripture that would show that what is going on today with the confiscation of Kingdom Halls by the WTB&TS is the same thing as what the ancient Jews were griping about ... and your REPEATED refusal to provide a simple scripture that would in reality show the cases are related .... AND .. you having to again fracture your personality with a fake ego to be able to reply at all .... with a complete fantasy .... may I suggest that what you are doing is warping and bending reason, logic, and reality even worse that what the Russians are being accused of. It is quite clear that Branch Offices, Bethels, and World Headquarters belong to the WTB&TS or affiliate corporations .... but Kingdom Halls USED to belong to each Individual Congregation ... until they were turned into perpetual profit centers by confiscation by the Governing Body. Those are the FACTS ! Your multiple personality agenda driven fantasies are only that ... fantasies.

TTH: Could you please quote a SPECIFIC scripture that would show the same thing was taking place in ancient times? Just because prostitutes wear shoes does NOT mean that everybody that wears shoes are prostitutes. Oh ...and because you missed my point, I will repeat it here, as once again you switched to an ad hominum attack to NOT answer the question .... ""There is a very simple test to see if the allegations that the Society confiscates private property of its followers is true ... or is NOT true. The Brothers (and Sisters) who saved up or borrowed money to build their Kingdom Halls locally, and used their sweat and time to build it .. often with the help of Friends ... do they specifically have the right to sell it as they see fit, and use the money as they see fit? Yes, or no?" CHOOSE. .

There is a very simple test to see if the allegations that the Society confiscates private property of its followers is true ... or is NOT true. The Brothers (and Sisters) who saved up or borrowed money to build their Kingdom Halls locally, and used their sweat and time to build it .. often with the help of Friends ... do they specifically have the right to sell it as they see fit, and use the money as they see fit? Yes, or no? You only "own" something, when you can control its use, and disposition. And when you pay off any mortgage, to reap the fruits of your labor. It works the same way when buying and selling cars. I, as an example, am a home owner ... I own my house, although I borrowed money from my bank to buy the house. If I decide to sell my house ... the bank DOES NOT get the value of property, beyond the amount of my loan obligation. I look foward to the day my mortgage is paid off, even if I am not here to see it. For those in Rio Linda, that means "died". Today, how do mortgages work with respect to Kingdom Halls? If my bank one day unilaterally should cancel the loan, I would naturally ( confusedly) have no objection, because I would STILL OWN THE HOUSE. But I would wonder what nefarious scheme they have in mind for getting THEIR money. Today, how do mortgages work with respect to Kingdom Halls? If, however, my bank could unilaterally cancel the loan, or usurp my right to sell it .... but until the end of time, I had to make equivalent payments each month, as "contributions", that would show that in reality THEY owned the house. .... ursurp my right is euphemistic for confiscate ... which means STEAL! I would have become merely a sheep to be sheared all the days of my life, and my wife's life, and my children's lives etc., thankful that they did not also unilaterally decide to EAT ME. Today, how does this all work with respect to Kingdom Halls? The reality is that my house would have been confiscated, (stolen from me...) as I, my wife, and children no longer had control over it.. and I no longer owned it. Years ago, I was in the Congo, where the government of Mobutu Sese Seko "nationalized" the sheep. If in driving down a dirt road near Kananga, I accidentally killed some of the Government's sheep (which the Zairian citizens were allowed to shepherd and tend...), it was a federal crime. If a Zairian citizen accidentally hit and killed a sheep, it was tantamount to treason. I was told by my employer that if I hit a sheep while driving, to get to a British Embassy as quick as possible, as the U.S. Embassy was never any help at all. Does any or all of this sound familiar? Yes, or no?

My wife and I are planning to see the movie "DUNKIRK" this weekend, and I have seen "Saving Private Ryan", and "Schindler's List", all very violent war movies, and in my opinion very IMPORTANT movies to see. The list of incredibly important movies could fill a notebook. I could probably list 10 off the top of my head .. some important for very different reasons. "The Notebook" comes to mind. Some, merely cultural icons, like the entire STAR WARS and STAR TREK franchises, etc. What has been your actual experience about what kinds of movies the Brotherhood actually sees ?

Oh yes... it's a fact all right ... In the middle 1960's there was the "Great Cranberry Scare" that caused about a 90% drop in cranberry sales, just before Thanksgiving, because it was discovered that Grey Cranberry Bog Dolphins that had swum upriver from the Pacific Ocean ... jumped from puddle to puddle and slithered up drainage ditches ... sometimes catching rides on municipal water trucks, to the Bogs, were almost extinct from getting scooped up into the nets they use to drag the bogs with, and no one wanted to eat such a cute creature that was always smiling, happy, and could be bribed with fish to pose for photographs. Sometimes you could get the dolphins to jump out of the water onto bog bank platforms, and play music on rubber bulb bicycle horns with their noses ... but that's another subject. Early into the 70's people STILL were complaining that they could taste dolphin in their cranberries, and it nearly destroyed the cranberry business in the United States, permanently. By the middle 70's all the Grey Cranberry Bog Dolphins were extinct except in Alabama and Louisiana .... but by many in the industry it is hoped that in the New System they will be resurrected or recreated so that they can resume their proper place in the ecosystem. You can refer your Facebook friends to WIKIPEDIA.ORG where there is more detail. The only reason we can get cranberries all across the USA today is because the cranberry farmers now, outside of Alabama and Louisiana, in violation of the Federal Mann Act, illegally take them across State lines, for immoral Porpoises. Apparently hybrid Dolphin/Porpoises taste like cranberries.

First of all.... the "report" says that although radiation levels are higher ... they are well below the "safe" levels. I know this without having to measure it ... As I understand time, distance, and radiation. When people try to scare the uneducated, they almost ALWAYS succeed. Tomorrow I will eat my 6th radioactive potassium infused banana this week, and go outside and bask in the brilliant white blaze of a completely unshielded star sized nuclear fusion reactor, which will give me a nice tan perhaps. Scaring people is a GREAT way to sell newspapers, and magazines ... both secular and theological. With the great majority of people, it ALWAYS works. And it is harder to tune a piano ... than to tuna fish.

Sometimes, where you went , is not where are going ......

Actually, Newton's first love was Theology, not math and physics ... and he wrote over a MILLION words by hand about that subject, and as far as core religious beliefs go, believed almost EXACTLY what Jehovah's Witness core theology is today ( not including the 85% drivel) ... without ever having to ricochet down the hallways of thought ... as he never published anything that could not be PROVEN. If memory serves, his manuscripts are at the Hebrew National Library, in Jerusalem. Many are available for free download from the Internet as PDF files. He was the world's foremost expert on LIGHT ... not old light or new light, which he would have just laughed at ... About the things he wrote about, he was never wrong (to my knowledge), and even the Society once speculated that he may have been one of the Anointed of God. Many of his essays on theology, although correct, could not be published until AFTER he had died, as the Church system had the power to destroy him, his job, and his life, if he exposed them as frauds. He was possibly, and arguably, the smartest and most determined natural man that ever lived .. and we share the same core theology. If I had to make a decision about whose counsel to take .... I would choose someone who was NEVER wrong, lacking hard evidence to the contrary. It is worth the time and effort to follow ALL the links provided above, about Sir Isaac Newton, and to go to a Public Library and read several Biographies of his life. If it wasn't for "Judge" Rutherford coming up with the name "Jehovah's Witnesses", The International Bible Students Association might have been also called "Newtonians", which is pretty much the same thing ... Although it was never actually published ... it appears Newton's opinion was that Armageddon would occur perhaps in 2060 CE, but not before 2032 CE. I wonder what date the "Overlapping Generations" outer limits will calculate to be. Hmmmm?

The way to spot "lost sheep" when they are in the middle of many other sheep is to lay on your side and look at their legs and feet to see if they are all facing the same way.

Tom: I wanted a biography of Robert Heinlein, which I could not afford .... so I went to my Public Library, and asked THEM to buy it. They did. THEN I asked them to buy volume 2. They did. Saved me about a hundred dollars. Perhaps that would work for you with Bedunns' book (?). "Truth in Translation" is completely , absolutely unbiased ... it tells the good, and the not so good (from an AGENDA viewpoint ...) with a fair and accurate hand. I am a retired engineer, and I think like Spock, in a sense, so The Simplified Watchtower for me seems to be missing the nuances ... which it is. It's SIMPLIFIED ... .... and I am a detail type person that would make you set your hair on fire and go screaming down the hallway to get away from the pain. ... and a detail oriented person in not necessarily an opposer ... although many people would think so. Here is how NEVER TO BE DISAPPOINTED BY FELLOW HUMANS ... .... expect NOTHING from them, and lower your expectations.

I was concerned with Darryl's OTHER brother, Darryl ...

Tom: I just "liked" one of TTH's comments ... hardly joining any mele .... it seems to be going along nicely ... I would like to mention that Jason BeDunn's book "Truth in Translation" is excellent and absolutely ACCURATE ... and that you can read several HUNDRED reviews of the book on Amazon.com website. I have a copy, but it is an analysis of the PRE-2013 New World Translation, (unless he has updated it ?) which I MUCH prefer over the paraphrased "Silver Sword., which objections I have mentioned earlier. His book was well worth the approximately $30 I paid for it. To make a LONG story short, the "Silver Sword" 2013 version in my opinion has been goofed up to agree with the 2010 supposedly "TOP SECRET" Elder's Handbook, which was of course available all over the Internet before all the KHs got their copies.... and reads like the Simplified Version of the Watchtower. Sometimes that's good ... but to be "generous", I find it inaccurate, and lacking important nuance. They made the 2013 Version agree with the "brazen conduct" reference in the Elder's handbook, so when you looked the stuff up, it would be supported by "scripture". They needed a "catch-all" to be able to redefine legitimate disagreement as apostasy and rebellion to consolidate political power in the Governing Body ... ... and that is my "brazen" opinion .... a word never found in the Bible ... original text, or English translation ... or ANY English translation, until the 2013 version of the NWT. ...but carry on ... I am not the Droid you want ... ... back to the program ... already in progress ... .

Does a persons dreams have any meaning? Some people dream ... some people don't. Do dreams have any real world significance?

Agreed .... Congress is an animal with about a thousand legs, and almost no brain. Their ability to NOT solve "Heath Care" shows that getting elected does not make them competent.

JWI I can't prove it, but I do NOT think the Jews during Jesus' time believed in any hell such as the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, etc. believed in. To the best of my knowledge, in Jewish literature there was NEVER a Jewish "horror" story about any poltergeists, ghosts, vampires or anything else that somehow survived death without direct and specific intervention by Jehovah God. They all knew the dead were just dead ... no more. Even the account of Enoch does NOT say he died ... it says he was "transferred". ( I have been transferred a few times, and sometimes with a U-Haul, a rented truck, or a company paid for moving van, and it did not kill me ...). Perhaps there were Kangaroos there where he was relocated (?) Perhaps your surgical scholarship could verify this .. I am by nature a chain saw kinda guy, but Jewish culture would perhaps give a partial combination at least to opening the "lock" I first thought Bro. Rando was a troll, but I agree with his analysis ... so far .... even though it applies to CHRISTENDOM'S adoption of the concept of a hell of torment, which had been around pervasively LONG before Christendom. To make a groaner pun .. The Devil is in the Details.

If you manipulate word, or numbers, to suit your own agenda, you can get ANYTHING! You can have a just God, or a petulant, insane sadistic monster god .... but NOT BOTH at the same time.

. . That has been my personal experience, and my direct observations in approximately 80% of all the Congregations I have attended in the past 50 and more years ...and have watched it escalate dramatically as the "love of the greater number" has cooled off. I cherish the other 20% ... but it was such a long time ago ..... . .

Hell was borrowed from the pagans to scare the wallets out of Christians ...

I have said all I know how to say ..... time to move on.

Cereally though Eoin: Perhaps after you have read this thread over and over you will understand that I ONLY wanted you to reply using the scripture you quoted, which did not apply to ANYTHING under current discussion at the time, to what I had stated that you found unpleasant ..... and even offered my other 7,000 or so posts so you could find SOMETHING to bolster your implied accusation, backed by a scripture that did not apply specifically to my postings in this thread ... because to the points being discussed, your quoted scripture was COMPLETELY irrelevant. .... almost as if it was a cut-and-paste from another discussion thread of a completely different subject ... which I bring up ... BECAUSE IT WAS. I saw it there, exactly as seen here, as you well know.