HollyW

Thanks, Janice, I appreciate your reply. It is a very busy world we live in. I just want to call your attention to this statement that you made above: "I understand God's name is not Lord or God, so the initials/consonant/YHWH Tetragram was replaced with LORD/Lord or GOD/God by scribes in the ancient manuscripts that we have." If you're saying this about the ancient OT Hebrew manuscripts, it just isn't true. The Tetragram is still there in the Hebrew. It had not been removed from the OT manuscripts at all. If you're saying this about the NT manuscripts, there is no evidence that the Tetragram was ever in them nor ever removed from them. If I've misunderstood what you mean, please let me know. Thank you. Holly

Hi again, Janice. I'm still working my way thru this thread and I notice that you've said several times that God's name has been removed from the OT. That's simply not true. Any of the Hebrew manuscripts our English Bibles are translated from still have God's name in them, the YHWH Tetragram. It is brought into English variously as LORD, GOD, Yahweh, and Jehovah, depending on the Bible. But this is not true of any of the Greek manuscripts of the NT. It's goes beyond reasonable to believe that the Hebrew characters for God's name, YHWH, was originally in the NT and was removed from more than 5,000 copies in exactly 237 places. However, if it had been there, would it have been read as "Lord" (Adonai in Hebrew; Kyrios in Greek)? Also, the name the disciples and early Christians preached in was not "Jehovah". They were beaten and imprisoned for preaching in the name of Jesus and were told to stop preaching in his name. Acts 4:18 And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

Hi Janice, Interesting quote from the Aramaic Bible. I'm new and haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, so please forgive me if this has already been mentioned. In that same Bible (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), there's this at 1 Corinthians 12:3 Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, "Yeshua is damned", neither can a man say, "Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH", except by The Spirit of Holiness. Not sure if you were aware of this or not. Holly

JWs don't look to Jesus as their mediator because he's the mediator of the new covenant and they've been told they are not in that covenant, only 144K people are in it and those people began to be numbered from the 1st century, so one can't help but think there aren't that many openings left. However, they do look to Jesus as their high priest---which is kind of odd since they don't consider that they are the Israel of God (again only the 144K are) and surely the high priest ministered only to Israel. But anyway, they also believe Jesus will die as their high priest by the end of the 1,000 years (despite Hebrew 7:25), and thereafter they will continue to live based on their own merit. Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Holly

Evidently JWs believe that's something God can do, put limits on himself so that there are things that he keeps himself from knowing. The interesting thing is that they allow for the Father to do this, limit what he knows and yet is still God; but they don't accord the Son the same thing, saying that because there's something he doesn't know that must mean he isn't God, even though the Bible certainly does say the Son is God. Anyway, not to get off the topic of your thread. Are you satisfied that there is no scripture that says the resurrection at the end of the 1,000 years is actually DURING the 1,000 years?

Glad you found their comments interesting, Melinda, since they were being published as the truth and are today being described as Bible truths Jehovah was blessing them with spiritual insight to rediscover. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012144#h=4 Holly

Hmmmm....well then, 'Bye.

Here's those "strange thoughts" from the WT Reasoning book: Also see the article in the 1/1/2011 wt: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011006

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matthew 24:45-47) For decades the WTS has used this scripture as the basis for their claim to being God's sole channel of communication to mankind, and have claimed to have fulfilled the part "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so" in the years 1914 to 1919 when the Master (Jesus returned from heaven, inspected them, and found them faithful and discreet).They taught that this began to occur in 33 C.E. when Jesus was leaving and going to heaven. Now that they've changed it to 1919, where did Jesus (the Master) go? According to the parable, he left his household and was due to return sometime in the future. According to the WTS, the master going away coincided with his ascension to heaven, that's why he appointed a faithful and discreet servant over his household. Now that the WTS has change this appointment to 1919, where was the Master going away to?Holly

Hi Ann, Your reference to the "Advertise" speech stood out. Quite right, the 'advertise, advertise, advertise' part is quoted a lot, but what they were being told to 'advertise', I think would be considered false advertising today.

QE, you said " JEHOVAH NEVER KNEW THAT ADAM WOULD SIN.... !!!! " And when I asked you " Are you saying there was something the Father did not know? " You said "YES!!!" But now I see that you have edited that out and replaced it with " NOOOOO - ONLY THE FATHER DID KNOW !!!!!!!! " Two questions: 1. Do you disagree with the WTS on this? 2. And how were you able to edit your reply of "YES !!!" out of my post?

And that doesn't disqualify the Father from being God?

Hi QE, Are you saying there was something the Father did not know?

It kind of sounds like you're saying 'So what if people die after the 1,000 years, there still won't be any tears or mourning'. Is that how you're reconciling Revelation 21:4 he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. And I wonder at your comparison of humans with angels since Jesus did not die for the salvation of angels, he died for us. Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Remember that it was AFTER Adam and Eve had sinned that they were covered with garments of animal skin and were promised a savior. An animal's life was sacrificed to provide the skins for covering the shame of Adam and Eve's nakedness, perfectly picturing the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus. Even the WTS says God "lovingly" provided these garments of skin "rather than leave them in their shame," that He "showed consideration for the feeling of shame that the sinners Adam and his wife now felt at being naked." There's no reason not to view their feelings of shame as repentance, and the covering God provided as being a foreshadowing of their savior, Jesus, whose shed blood would cover their sin/shame.Consider for a moment how these two people viewed the ransom in relation to Adam and Eve: Russell [Divine Plan of the Ages, 1886, Ch.7, p.129]: Our Lord, "the man Christ Jesus," himself unblemished, approved, and with a perfect seed or race in him, unborn, likewise untainted with sin, gave his all of human life and title as the full ransom-price for Adam and the race or seed in him when sentenced. Having thus fully purchased the lives of Adam and his race, Christ offers to adopt as his seed, his children, all of Adam's race who will accept the terms of his New Covenant and thus by faith come into his family - the family of God - and receive everlasting life. Rutherford [w30 11/1 p.331] Thus the fact that death resulted to all Adam’s children, due to his offense and disobedience, made it possible and just for God to ransom Adam and all mankind by the atoning sacrifice of “the man Christ Jesus”.

Then "Adamic death" is actually the second death, the one in the lake of fire. Aren't you saying that's the only death God could have been referring to in regard to Adam and Eve?

When God told Adam that he would die, which death was being referred to? Genesis 2:16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Holly

Ah, yes, John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. Very powerful scripture. Now, John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. Why did you call them "memorial" tombs? I haven't found any Bible translation that has that other than the NWT. Sounds like you're going to be busy for a while so I'll wait to hear from you again. In the meantime, while you go about your activities, consider something for me, okay? Consider: Revelation 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” And ponder how the truth of these verses can possibly be reconciled with a world where the second death, what you say is annihilation in the lake of fire, is forever a possibility for you and/or your loved ones and friends, every day that you wake up, for ever and ever, with no savior, no ransom, no mediator between you and God. Holly

Thanks, Eoin, I knew you didn't have anything to support what you said. Holly

Excuse me, Eoin, you will have to offer some sort of evidence that I have in any way misrepresented JW beliefs in my statement that you are referring to: Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again. In fact, what you went on to post actually substantiates that what I said is true about the beliefs of JWs, they don't expect to ever have everlasting life (other than their anointed class), they are told they will just have continuing life, for as long as they merit it on their own righteousness. Having the perfection of Adam and Eve is not being saved. Having the holiness and righteousness of Jesus is what saves us; our belief in him gives us that and all of our sins are forgiven in God's sight because of that. Even the WTS recognizes this as a Bible teaching, it's just that they say it's only for a small segment of believers, numbering only 144,000, and not for any other believer. That's why Shiwii's question has still not been answered. There is no scripture that says there's a resurrection that takes place during the 1,000 years. The resurrection that takes place at the end of the 1,000 years has been moved by the WTS to take place during the 1,000 years; and it has been changed from being a resurrection to being a self-help sort of educational program to teach people how to be as perfect as Adam was before he sinned, so that they can eventually meet all of God's standards mentally, morally, physically, and spiritually, and can then stand before God on their own merit rather than on the merit of Jesus Christ Holly

So Adam didn't suffer the second death....the death you say is never gone?

Thanks for your reply, Melinda. But you don't believe "Adamic death" is what Adam suffered, do you? The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” When God said to Adam, "you will surely die", was that a reference to what you call "Adamic death"? Also, "progress to perfection"......where is that in the Bible in reference to the millennium? Holly

Dear Melinda, These four times that "Adamic death" appears in your post, none of them are in scripture, are they. In fact, you had to insert "Adamic" into the quote of the scripture you used because it is not there in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 15:225-26 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. Do you see why I said what you posted was at odds with the Bible? Is it your belief that "Adamic death" is the death Adam suffered? Holly

Adamic death? Is that the death Adam suffered? I must have missed that phrase "Adamic death" in my study of the scriptures that say death shall be no more, death will be swallowed up forever, death with be brought to nothing. Revelation 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it. 1 Corinthians 15:26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. For those you say are resurrected during the millennium, when does Revelation 21:4 become a reality for them? Holly

The one they keep bringing up is the one the Bible says takes place, not during, but at the end of the thousand year reign. And notice what those ones are judged on: the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (Revelation 20:12) Can their deeds save them? Of course not, otherwise they might boast that they earned their own salvation, apart from Christ, which is actually what the WTS teaches them they will have to do, forever, they will continue to live for only as long as they merit it on their own. The WTS teaches that only 144,000 people are declared righteous for life by God based on their faith in Jesus and he uses this declaration of righteousness to them as the basis for adopting them as his sons, acquitting them of all guilt due to sin, crediting them as being completely righteous persons with all their sins being forgiven and not charged against them. Once they have been declared righteous for life by God and adopted as his sons, he credits them with holiness because of their faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ. Because of Jehovah's confidence in them that they will never sin again, he grants them immortality and incorruption in the first resurrection.Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again. Holly