HollyW

The WTS says all of this takes place after Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his Father. For example, see the commentary on Revelation, "Revelation---Its Grand Climax at Hand" on pg. 291: The Final Test 19 By the end of the Thousand Year Reign, all earth will have come to resemble the original Eden. It will be a veritable paradise. Perfect mankind will no longer need a high priest to intercede for it before God, since all traces of Adamic sin will have been removed and the last enemy, death, brought to nothing. Christ’s Kingdom will have achieved God’s purpose to create one world with one government. At this point, Jesus “hands over the kingdom to his God and Father.”—1 Corinthians 15:22-26; Romans 15:12. 20 It is now time for a final test. Will that perfected world of mankind, in contrast with the first humans in Eden, stand firm in its integrity? John tells us what happens: “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.”—Revelation 20:7-9a. So, it's at the end of the thousand years, when everyone on earth has reached perfection, meeting God's standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually---before the final test---the WTS indicates that it's at this point Jesus hands over the kingdom in fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15:24. The Bible shows that a vast number of those on earth will side with Satan in going to war. However, even after that, the WTS says that mankind will continue to face sin and death, but this time without Jesus to save them.

I was referring to the tree of life as being symbolic. For some, the WTS says it is symbolic of immortality, but for others it is not. It is also said to be in different places, one in heaven and the other on earth, hence two different trees of life as presented by the WTS. You ask "which perfect sensible human being after all that Mankind has gone through would choose death over life in a Paradise Earth...." the answer from the WTS is that there will be a vast number of perfect humans who do so...a number so large it can't be counted, will choose death over life, will choose war over peace---even after a thousand years of peace and study of WTS publications to attain the perfection Adam had before he sinned. And after that, evidently there will still be some who sin and will be cast into the lake of fire, their faith in Jesus and his sacrifice not being enough to give Jehovah confidence that they will never sin again and thus give them immortality.

Would you consider the wearing of a cross, representing Jesus who died for us, a conscience matter also?

Since a prophecy is the result of prophesying, the difference you've suggested doesn't really support your point. The WTS has come up against a sticky-wicket with this one because they've even gone so far as to say they were not speaking in Jehovah's name therefore what they said couldn't be held against them as a false prophecy. [g93 3/22 p.4] Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: “We have not the gift of prophecy.” (January 1883, page 425) “Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible.” (December 15, 1896, page 306) The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit “does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” (May 15, 1947, page 157) “The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic.” (August 15, 1950, page 263) “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)”—February 15, 1981, page 19. In actual practice though, JWs are to accept whatever the men on the governing body say the Bible really teaches just as though those men are inspired and infallible. [w57 6/15 p.370] It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.

Let's take a look at the Bible evidence Russell had been saying would prove him right about the end of the Gentile times. This is from his book called "The Time Is At Hand" which he wrote in 1889: In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove: Firstly, That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions. Secondly, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his dashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psa. 2:9; Rev. 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government. Thirdly, It will prove that some time before the end of the overthrow the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member. Fourthly, It will prove that from that time forward Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down of the Gentiles, but shall arise from the dust of divine disfavor, to honor; because the "Times of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled or completed. Fifthly, It will prove that by that date, or sooner, Israel's blindness will begin to be turned away; because their "blindness in part" was to continue only "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25), or, in other words, until the full number from among the Gentiles, who are to be members of the body or bride of Christ, would be fully selected. Sixthly, It will prove that the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination in a world-wide reign of anarchy; and then men will learn to be still, and to know that Jehovah is God and that he will be exalted in the earth. (Psa. 46:20) The condition of things spoken of in symbolic language as raging waves of the sea, melting earth, falling mountains and burning heavens will then pass away, and the "new heavens and new earth" with their peaceful blessings will begin to be recognized by trouble-tossed humanity. But the Lord's Anointed and his rightful and righteous authority will first be recognized by a company of God's children while passing through the great tribulation--the class represented by m and t on the Chart of the Ages (see also pages 235 to 239, Vol. I); afterward, just at its close, by fleshly Israel; and ultimately by mankind in general. Seventhly, It will prove that before that date God's Kingdom, organized in power, will be in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image (Dan. 2:34)--and fully consume the power of these kings. Its own power and dominion will be established as fast as by its varied influences and agencies it crushes and scatters the "powers that be"--civil and ecclesiastical--iron and clay. Available online at http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/books-and-tracts/ and http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf So, these are the events you would be expecting when you imagine yourself in the dining room that day in October 1914 when C.T. Russell announced that the Gentile times had ended. These events are the evidence that would prove October 1914 was the correct date Biblically for the end of the Gentile times. Perhaps someone who feels strong enough spiritually to defend him or her self biblically could show which, if any, of these events took place.

How about the WTS definition, you don't consider it to be flawed, do you? [w06 5/15 p.6] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone,perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5) How this and the Paradise earth will glorify Jehovah!

The WTS says that the tree of life is symbolic of God's provision for sustained life.....immortality for the 144,000…….continuing life for everyone else (until they sin and die in the lake of fire.) Evidently the WTS does view the tree of life that the anointed eat from and the trees of life the other sheep eat from as being different trees of life: [Rev.Cli. p.36-37] “Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To him that conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.” (Revelation 2:7) .......the reference here must be to the heavenly gardenlike realm inherited by these conquerors. There, “in the paradise of God,” yes, in the very presence of Jehovah himself, these overcomers who have been granted immortality will continue to live eternally, as symbolized here by their eating of the tree of life. [Rev.Cli. p.312] “And on this side of the river and on that side there were trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the curing of the nations.” (Revelation 22:2b) These “trees of life” must also picture part of Jehovah’s provision for giving eternal life to obedient mankind. Though it is called "eternal life", in reality the WTS teaching shows that it is not "eternal life" for those on earth, but just "continuing life". IOW they continue to live for as long as they merit it on their own righteousness, without Jesus to plead for them. [Reference: w06 8/15 p.31 QFR]

While not being worn as a symbol of the Christ, how about wearing it and using it as a symbol of the organization you believe Jehovah is using, the WTS. As a symbol of God's Organization, it could be seen as worship of that organization.

The WTS claims only to not being inspired prophets; however, they do admit to prophesying and they have pictured themselves as being like inspired prophets such as Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah. [rs False Prophets p.136 par.2] Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. [w64 6/15 p.364] As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah’s purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a “faithful and discreet slave” class that would be used to dispense God’s progressive revelations in these last days. Of this class Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.”—Matt. 24:47.

Thanks for your reply. The requirement to accept WTS teachings is not limited to 10 teachings. The requirement is to accept ALL of their teachings. The question is, if they did change their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus after you were baptized, do you believe you should be required to believe it on pain of excommunication and shunning?

Melinda and Eoin, I don't believe Paul was saying that even if what he was teaching was wrong, he would still teach it because he believed it was from the Lord. But that seems to be how you both are interpreting him, as applied to my question in the OP, you believe living up to Kingdom standards and requirements means you are to teach whatever the WTS governing body says to teach, until they change it, and if you don't change your belief when told to, you can be accused of apostasy and be shunned. A good article to review in this regard might be the one from the April 1st 1986 WT, the Questions From Readers on page 31. It shows that not accepting the entire range of the WTS teachings is considered apostasy.

That's interesting.....which scriptures are you referring to?

Good to know. Thanks!

Well, I know my post is being read....102 views....but so far there have been no replies about this important issue. What if you are asked about it by the inactive ones with whom you've been placing the brochure, how would you answer them?

I'm not sure this dining room event even happened.....sometimes they say it was October 1st and other times that it was October 2nd. The first mention of it that I could find was in the May 1922 WT where Rutherford said this: [May 1, 1922 WT p. 139] On the first day of October, 1914, Brother Russell walked into the dining-room at Bethel and, clapping his hands, announced in stentorian tones· "The gentile times have ended! The kings of earth have had their day!" Brother Russell was right then. He was right when he wrote Volume II concerning the gentile times. Indeed, Volume II of Russell's STUDIES series laid the foundation for October of 1914 being the end of the Gentile Times, and in that Volume he gave seven distinct proofs that his calculations were correct and were Biblical. So, when (and IF) he made that statement in October of 1914 at the dining room, his audience knew exactly what he was referring to. They'd been reading it and hearing about it for the entire time they had been following Russell.The volume is called "The Time Is At Hand" and Russell wrote it in 1889. It is referred to as Volume 2, or II, but it's actually his third volume because the first volume is referred to as Volume 0. They started out as "Millennial Dawn" volumes but were changed to "Studies in the Scriptures" at some point. There are several web sites that have these volumes available for download: http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/engli...ks-and-tracts/ and http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsfOn pages 76-79 Russell presents seven proofs for support that his date of October 1914 for the close of the gentile times is accurate and scriptural.This is what he wrote: In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. ["The Time Is At Hand" 1889, p.76.] Ok. So....what did his announcement on October 1st or 2nd of 1914 in the dining room mean to his audience? Imagine yourself there, as the GB has invited you to in their letter in their book "God's Kingdom Rules!" Imagine hearing those words, "The Gentile Times have ended! Their kings have had their day!" (Just like the song #14 "Be Glad You Nations") Those hearing Russell's announcement were expecting that the "full end of the times of the Gentiles, .....the full end of their lease of dominion" had ended that year in October and "that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men." That's our answer to the first question, isn't it, that's what Russell's announcement, “The Gentile Times have ended; their kings have had their day!” meant to them...."the full end of the times of the Gentiles,....the full end of their lease of dominion,...the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men." What events were they looking forward to? Russell lists seven specific events that would take place, showing that his calculations and predictions about 1914 were both accurate and Biblical.

In the early days of the WTS, its founder, C.T. Russell, included the worship of Jesus Christ in the charter of the Watchtower Bible & Trast Society as one of its purposes. If you have the 1945 Yearbook, you'll find it on page 32. If not, it is online at this website:http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/archi...s/yb1945_E.pdfAnd this is the text you'll find there---notice the part I bolded: 32 Yearbook received from that state a charter to carry on their Christian activity. The chartered purposes of that Society are in full accord with the Lord's command to 'go, disciple all nations'. The words of its present charter show that the purposes of the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society are : To act as the servant of and the legal world-wide governing agency for that body of Christian persons known as Jehovah's witnesses; to preach the gospel of God's kingdom under Christ Jesus unto all nations as a witness to the name, word and supremacy of Almighty God JEHOVAH ; to print and distribute Bibles and to disseminate Bible truths In various languages by means of making and publishing literature containing information and comment explaining Bible truths and prophecy concerning establishment of Jehovah's kingdom under Christ Jesus; to authorize and appoint agents, servants, employees, teachers, instructors, evangelists, missionaries and ministers to go forth to all the world publicly and from house to house to preach and teach Bible truths to persons willing to listen by leaving with such persons said literature and by conducting Bible studies thereon ; to improve men, women and children mentally and morally by Christian missionary work and by charitable and benevolent instruction of the people on the Bible and incidental scientific, historical and literary subjects; to establish and maintain private Bible schools and classes for gratuitous Instruction of men and women in the Bible, Bible literature and Bible history; to teach, train, prepare and equip men and women as ministers, missionaries, evangelists, preachers, teachers and lecturers ; to provide and maintain homes, places and buildings for gratuitous housing of such students, lecturers, teachers and ministers ; to furnish gratuitously to such students, lecturers, teachers, educators and ministers suitable meals and lodging, and to prepare, support, maintain and send out to various parts of the world Christian missionaries, teachers and instructors in the Bible and Bible literature, and for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus; to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship; to use or operate radio broadcasting stations for preaching this gospel of the Kingdom ; and to do any and all other lawful things that its Board of Directors shall deem expedient for the purposes stated. Not only that, these are excerpts from other WTS publications, beginning with Russell's view: "It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship...." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3 "It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157 "Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216 "In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15 Rutherford continued this teaching: "Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov 15 p.339 "During the Millennium, "the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ." Vindication Volume 3 (J. F. Rutherford, 1932) p.295 "The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)." Salvation (J. F. Rutherford, 1939) p.151 Knorr continued this teaching: "Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313 Take into account also that the WTS says not only did God approve of this, but HE Himself was enlightening Russell and Rutherford spiritually to teach this. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/b...-rediscovered/

George Howard's theory that YHWH was in the OT quotes that are in the NT covers just a small portion of the 237 times the NWT has "Jehovah" in its NT. There's also the question about how it was actually read, if it did indeed appear there, since it is also stated that Jews read YHWH as "Lord". One of the articles in your references refers to the use of "Jehovah" by the Aramaic Bible in Plain English. I wonder if Howard would agree with it's translation of 1 Corinthians 12:3 Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, “Yeshua is damned”, neither can a man say, “Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH”, except by The Spirit of Holiness. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

To keep this thread on track with the question in the OP [which was: "do you think that if a teaching has changed since you were baptized, you should still be required to believe it?] if the WTS Governing Body said they had received new light and changed their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus being separate individuals to one that says Jesus is Jehovah, would you change your belief to agree with them? If you wouldn't, do you believe you should be subject to reproof and/or disfellowshipping for not accepting their new teaching?

And for the NT lack of YHWH, they blame what they call "brother Christians": [w10 7/1 p.6-7] When brother Christians made copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures, they evidently took Jehovah’s personal name out of the text and substituted Ky′ri·os, the Greek word for “Lord.” The Hebrew Scriptures did not fare any better. No longer reading God’s name aloud, brother Jewish scribes replaced the divine name in their Scriptures with ʼAdho·nai′ more than 130 times.

The WTS has two opposing views on the Bible’s reliability.While on the one hand they maintain that the Bible manuscripts have unquestionably come down to us exactly as God had inspired them to be written; on the other hand they say the NT manuscripts have been tampered with in “one of the saddest and most reprehensible” ways, by removing “Jehovah” from them……which might make them wonder what other parts were tampered with. Bible reliability: Awake, 6/11/1972: Almighty God himself has unquestionably had a hand in seeing that his Word has been preserved so faithfully all these years. Any way one looks at it, the overall reliability of the Bible text is beyond question. Road to Paradise tract, pg. 3: HAS NOT THE HOLY BIBLE BEEN TAMPERED WITH? Almighty God could by no means allow such a thing……... When our present-day Bible is compared with such old manuscripts, it becomes quite clear that the text we have today is the same as that which God inspired his ancient servants to write. Insight-1 p.321: Copies—Hebrew or Greek—Soon after the originals were written, manuscript copies began to be produced. The copyists exercised great care to transmit the text accurately; the Masoretes counted even the letters that they copied. Insight-1 p.448: The available evidence convincingly demonstrates the remarkable accuracy and care that distinguished the copying of the Bible books, resulting in the preservation of their internal integrity. Insight-2 p.313: What assurance is there that the Bible has not been changed? Despite the care exercised by copyists of Bible manuscripts, a number of small scribal errors and alterations crept into the text. On the whole, these are insignificant and have no bearing on the Bible’s general integrity. They have been detected and corrected by means of careful scholastic collation or critical comparison of the many extant manuscripts and ancient versions. NWT introduction: Since the Bible sets for the sacred will of the Sovereign Lord of the universe, it would be a great indignity, indeed an affront to his majesty and authority, to omit or hide his unique divine name.Bible tampered with: Close to Jehovah, p.8: God’s personal name has been removed from countless Bible translations and replaced with titles, such as “Lord” and “God”. This is one of the saddest and most reprehensible things that has been done in the name of religion. Insight-2 p.10: Why, then, is the name absent from the extant manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures or so-called New Testament? Evidently because by the time those extant copies were made (from the third century C.E. onward) the original text of the writings of the apostles and disciples had been altered. Thus later copyists undoubtedly replaced the divine name in Tetragrammaton form with Ky′ri·os and The·os′. Insight-1 p.324: Eventually, in most translations of the Bible the divine name was completely replaced by expressions such as “Lord” and “God.” It is noteworthy that only the most vital name of all—Jehovah—was tampered with; other Bible names were not. Watchtower 10/1/1997 p.20: Show discernment in the selection of the Bible you use. (Proverbs 19:8) If a translation is not honest about the identity of God himself—removing his name from his inspired Word on whatever pretext—might the translators also have tampered with other parts of the Bible text?

Well, JWs believe the WTS is Jehovah's organization here on earth and that's why they are willing to accept teachings from it that later turn out to be wrong. That's why I've asked them: Why do you believe the WTS is the organization Jehovah is using? I was expecting to get more than just "why not?" but so far that seems to be it.

The WTS definition of perfect in this instance is to "meet God's standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually." [w06 5/15 p.6] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone, perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5) How this and the Paradise earth will glorify Jehovah!

Adam was perfect but you are wrong to accuse him of attempting to destroy his offspring. Yet they are perfect JWs with more or less a thousand years of studying WTS publications to have reached that perfect state, and they are persuaded to war against other JWs. I'll start a thread about this WTS teaching that a vast number of JWs will be persuaded to go to war against their fellow JWs, and we can get into more detail about it, if you'd like. In the meantime, I notice you haven't responded to the question in the OP, maybe you could do so now: Why do you believe the WTS is the organization Jehovah is using?

What about the JW icon in comparison to the cross and crown pin? ----[jv p.200] For years, Bible Students wore a cross and crown as a badge of identification, and this symbol was on the front cover of the “Watch Tower” from 1891 to 1931. But in 1928 it was emphasized that not a decorative symbol but one’s activity as a witness showed he was a Christian.---- -----[yb75 p.148] Another change in viewpoint involved the “cross and crown” symbol, which appeared on the Watch Tower cover beginning with the issue of January 1891. In fact, for years many Bible Students wore a pin of this kind. By way of description, C. W. Barber writes: “It was a badge really, with a wreath of laurel leaves as the border and within the wreath was a crown with a cross running through it on an angle. It looked quite attractive and was our idea at that time of what it meant to take up our ‘cross’ and follow Christ Jesus in order to be able to wear the crown of victory in due time.” Concerning the wearing of “cross and crown pins,” Lily R. Parnell comments: “This to Brother Rutherford’s mind was Babylonish and should be discontinued. He told us that when we went to the people’s homes and began to talk, that was the witness in itself.” Accordingly, reflecting on the 1928 Bible Students convention in Detroit, Michigan, Brother Suiter writes: “At the assembly the cross and crown emblems were shown to be not only unnecessary but objectionable. So we discarded these items of jewelry.” Some three years thereafter, beginning with its issue of October 15, 1931, The Watchtower no longer bore the cross and crown symbol on its cover.-----

Hi again Mr V, I'm wondering if maybe a new thread is in order for your questions, unless you are relating them in some way to the question in the OP. If you are, could you explain how.....for instance, are you saying you believe the men on the WTS governing body are on par with the angel in these passages? Everyone who has received the Holy Spirit are moved by Him, but it won't be in any way that contradicts scripture. So, if the men on the governing body were wrong, for instance, about the child in Revelation 12 being the antichrist, that would not have been something that came from the Holy Spirit since it contradicts scripture. Was the Holy Spirit moving them to identify first the 144,000 as the faithful servant of Matthew 24:45, and then to discard that teaching and identify Russell alone as that servant, then to discard that teaching and again identify the 144,000 as the faithful servant, and now to discard all of those teachings and identify just the handful of men on the WTS governing body as the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45? How about when they presumed an appointment over all of the Master's earthly interests? Were they moved by the Holy Spirit to presume that appointment and now moved by Him to discard that belief and say it didn't happen after all and they are still waiting to be found faithful to receive that appointment? If it's your belief that the leaders of the WTS have been moved by the Holy Spirit in all their teachings, even when those have been wrong teachings and had to be changed, is that the reason you believe JWs should be willing to accept changes in what they've said the Bible really teaches?