HollyW

This is one of the problems with a religious organization that holds its members captive to the concept that their leaders alone are the ones chosen by God to be his sole channel of communication to mankind----once that is believed, those leaders can change whatever belief they want to and their followers readily accept those changes because of the belief that they are coming from God himself thru the WTS. It shows itself in the heavy reliance that was placed on pyramidology in the early days of the WTS. The Great Pyramid was said to be God's Stone Witness of Isaiah 19:19,20; however, by 1928 it was Satan's Bible: [The Watch Tower, November 15, 1928, p.344, par.37 Satan the Devil chose Ham, another son of Noah. Egypt is known as the land of Ham. Nimrod was a descendant of Ham, and the Devil exalted Nimrod in the eyes of the people as one greater than Jehovah God. The Devil, by the use of the descendants of Ham, set up Egypt, or the land of Ham, as the first great world power. Then Satan put his knowledge in dead stone, which may be called Satan's Bible, and not God's stone witness. In erecting the pyramid, of course, Satan would put in it some truth, because that is his method of practising fraud and deceit. http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/zions-watch-tower/

Let's look at Matthew 24:45: Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? It isn't saying a choice was made "because he could work with them" but that they would be serving "food at the proper time". This "food", as you know, is considered to be what the WTS was teaching in its books and magazines, etc. up to 1919. This is how it is described in the WTS book, "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached": [ka p.350, par.40] The serving of food, the right sort of food, at the proper time was the issue. It had to be according to this that a decision must be rendered by the returned master...........Down to 1919 C.E. they had endeavored to give “food at the proper time” to the “household of faith” or the “domestics” of the heavenly Master. They did this despite interference by persecutors and the warring nations. Not only was the regularity in serving the spiritual food a problem, but the quality of the food itself was to be considered.........they met the test. So Jesus' decision would have been based on an examination of what the WTS had been teaching up to 1919, just as the WTS says he judged (and rejected) all other religious organizations based on their teachings up to that same date. In the WT of June 1, 2001, on page 14, it says this: "Logically, to enjoy God’s backing, one must teach only what God reveals in his Word and reject teachings based on human wisdom or tradition." So, according to the WTS, for it to have God's backing as his organization, it would have to meet at least four standards as presented by the WTS above: It would have to have the right teachings. It would have to teaching them at the right time. Its teachings would have to be revealed by God in His Word. Its teaching would NOT be based on human wisdom or tradition. You seem to be using a double standard here. When the WTS brings him up and prints drawings and pictures of him, and even invites you to imagine yourself there during his time, you say that's just part of your history; but if I or someone else asks you questions about Russell and his teachings, you imply that's making him a cult figure. I don't think the claim of the WTS as being the sole channel of communication to mankind is based on what was sung by Caruso, Callas, or any of the many artists to whom you are referring. If it were, we'd be examining their work. But, no, the WTS claim is based on what they were teaching up to 1919, and those teachings have Russell written all over them.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. We're given the time frame of the days of Noah and the disobedient ones were mankind, not angels, for why would God punish humans if angels were the ones being disobedient during those days of Noah.

Arauna, are you aware of the picture and letter at the beginning of the WTS 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules!" ? http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/lv/r1/lp-e/0/21821 The appointment of the faithful slave made AFTER 1919 is said to have been based on an examination of what had been teaching UP TO 1919. It was NOT based on what the WTS is teaching today, but on what Russell was teaching. If you've looked at the beginning of the book I linked to above, you've seen a picture of Russell on that day in October of 1914 in the dining hall announcing that the Gentile times had ended. You've also seen a letter from the Governing Body to picture yourself there. How does that relate to your statement "people should not care much about what one person (Russell) believed".

For JWs the difference is in who is getting it. The WTS says that the tree of life is symbolic of God's provision for sustained life....immortality for the 144,000.....continuing life for everyone else (until they sin and die in the lake of fire.) The "continuing life" is viewed as being everlasting unless they sin and are annihilated in the lake of fire. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 is interpreted by the WTS as being only for the 144,000 and they say means that they will be given newly created spirit bodies activated with their memories, character, personality-----their life pattern. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory." But this is saying in the resurrection the physical body which is mortal and perishable will be clothed with, or will put on, immortality and incorruption. That's how our physical, mortal, perishable bodies become spiritual, immortal, imperishable bodies.

The location of the great crowd is given to us in Revelation 7:9 as "standing before the throne and before the Lamb". Up until 1935, the WTS believed and taught that the great crowd was in heaven, a vast group of believers said to be not quite as faithful as the 144,000, but still heaven-bound, spirit-anointed, emblem-partaking, witnesses of Jehovah. Now, I have heard some JWs call this belief "crap" and "baloney", but the WTS says Russell and his followers who believed this were being blessed with spiritual insight by Jehovah to rediscover these Bible truths. (see http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012144 ) And even after Russell's death and after Jehovah is said to have cleansed Russell's followers and appointed them in 1919 as the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45, they still believed this. But then in the early 1930's there was a third class of believers invented by the WTS President at the time, Joseph Rutherford. He called them Jonadabs, or Johanadabs, and identified them as a group of believers whose future destination was not heaven but earth. During a speech Rutherford gave at a 1935 convention, he asked those of this group to stand up. Then he pointed to them and announced that they were the great crowd. Think about that for a minute. Do you wonder why there might have been a sudden hush at the convention? It's said there was one. Probably from an intake of breath from those who had believed prior to this that they were members of the great crowd and had stayed seated when those who believed they would be on earth had stood up at Rutherford's invitation. Or maybe from the whooshing sound of the doors of heaven closing in their faces.

Hi Moggy! I guess using "professed" means they weren't real Christians. It's puzzling why they were being put forth as positive examples for modern day JWs, as the article from 9/1/1951 is doing. The WTS really needs to rethink their whole 144,000 concept, not only because the numbers just don't add up, but because the Bible shows the 144,000 to be Jewish Evangelists on earth during the Great Tribulation, while the great crowd are Christian Martyrs in heaven, having been martyred during the Great Tribulation.

No, JWs haven't moved on since 1919. They keep going back to 1919 and their supposed appointment as the faithful slave. In the 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules!", right at the beginning there is a letter from the Governing Body inviting you to picture yourself back in 1914 in the dining hall at Bethel in NYC when Russell walks in and announces that the Gentile times have ended. Yes, Russell and his belief that Christ's return could be calculated by determining the length and termination point of the Gentile Times are the subjects of this thread. I give you again my OP: On to your post: Russell had everything wrong about 1914 and he provided the very criteria that proved him wrong. For reference, see his book "The Time Is At Hand", written in 1889, pgs. 76-79, where he lists seven proofs that were going to show whether or not 1914 was really the end of the times of Gentiles as he claimed it would be and as JWs today claim it was. I haven't ignored them at all. It's obvious you have one that applies to 1914 and the other to an unspecified date sometime in the future. This thread is about 1914 and whatever Greek word you are attaching to it. And, Yes, this thread is about Russell and his ability to calculate a date unknown to Jesus and the angels and the early Christians, so that's why Russell is being referred to. And you say this took place in 1914 but Jesus said "of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah." (Mt. 24:36; Mk. 13:32) Preaching the gospel of God's Kingdom has not been limited to the past 100 years! It's been preached at least since the first century, and is still being preached today by faithful Christians. All Christians are called to be faithful and sensible in fulfilling their ministries and walking with the Lord Jesus, ever on the alert for his return because we don't know when it will be. It's a warning to stay on the alert for all Christians, it isn't a script for a play with various parts assigned to certain actors, nor is it a call for an elite clergy class being elevated over others. Matthew 24:43-45 support what I've been saying, Jesus' return cannot be calculated from the Bible: But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? Look at the context of Luke 21:24. Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by(the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Doesn't that sound to you like what happened in the year 70 A.D.? Michael is the arch angel. How are you relating this to Jesus' return in 1914? Thank you for the suggestion, and, if this is Good-bye, thank you for your time and consideration.

You're speaking of Acts 1:9-11 where the disciples watched him visibly go into heaven: Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” But in 1914 the Bible Students were not aware of his return at all because they were saying he had already returned in 1874.

Isn't it more likely that just as lightning is visible from east to west, that Jesus' return WILL be visible and that's why we aren't to believe those who say, 'Look! Here is the Christ', or "There!' or 'He is in the wilderness.' Because He will be visible to all, 'every eye will see Him.'

Dear Arauna, It is through Jesus that God forgives all our sins. I pray you read Psalm 103, especially verse 12: As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. Our love for Jesus and His love for us compels us to walk in his footsteps. We aren't saved by our own merit, but by the righteousness of Jesus.

As per the OP*, we're talking about 1914, the 2nd Coming or Presence of Christ. You've already said that the timing of the final coming is an unspecified date.

Thank you for the discussion, Eoin, and for confirming that, at least for you, it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not. Since that means the question in the OP is of no importance nor interest to you, I wonder what, speaking in nautical terms, prompted you to put an oar in.

What you're saying isn't indicative of what the GB is saying though, Arauna. Time and again their publications refer back to Russell. Earlier I post an example of that from the 2014 book, God's Kingdom Rules!, where you are invited to imagine yourself back to October 1st or 2nd of 1914 in the dining room at Bethel in NYC when Russell walked in and made his announcement that the Gentile times had ended. Surely you aren't referring to your own religious leaders as being "like an abusive spouse", are you, since they're the ones who keep referring back to Russell. There are more examples of this, but the most salient point is that the current status of the WTS is dependent on an inspection of what they were teaching up to 1919. Have you ever gone back and studied what Jesus would have been inspecting? The book published in 1917, The Finished Mystery, as Russell's 7th volume of his Studies in the Scriptures series would have been among those things inspected by Jesus to cause him to conclude Russell's Bible Students should be appointed as God's sole channel of communication to mankind. Have you ever read it? Russell didn't have the date right at all. He said it was going to be the start of the 1,000 years, the Millennium, that Armageddon would be over by then, that all governments and institutions would crumble, and Christ would establish his Millennial Kingdom on earth. None of that took place, not then and not in any year since then. The ones in the Bible who knew when the birth of the Messiah had taken place were the magi. I suppose they could have gotten it from Daniel if they were from Babylon where Daniel had lived and died, but they said they had seen the star of the one born King of the Jews and had come to worship Him. Are you using the 70 years for his birth or thirty years later? Regarding Revelation 12, would you like to read the interpretation of it that Jesus would have read during the inspection you believe he made in the years 1914 thru 1919? It's in the WTS publication of 1917, The Finished Mystery. If it's not available thru the WTS, there are several online sites that have it. Since the only publications on these sites are those of the WTS, they could not be considered apostasy websites, unless you consider the Society's older publications apostasy.

But then, by that same reasoning, the day at the end of the Christ's Presence would not be unspecified, would it. If the beginning of Christ's 2nd coming can be calculated right down to the year and day from what God has revealed in the Bible, has not God also made the end calculable? Or, perhaps your premise is at fault and God may reveal one thing but not another.

Arauna, the scriptures in my OP speak directly to the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence: Matthew 24:36-39 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Mark 13:32-37 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come. It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert. Therefore, be on the alert---for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning---in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep. What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'" Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority. I notice you've not commented on them yet. Maybe you could do so now.

If you have a different opinion than that, you should state it clearly instead of offering up analogies that end up saying the same thing your posts have been saying, to wit: that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not. Yes, this is a public forum, though I'm not sure what you're trying to say that has to do with either your opinion or my question(s) about the Gentile times. In this case, both come to mind, don't they. Handy for a sinking ship, or conversely to dispatch the Captain. And evidently regardless of who's at the helm. Two different scenarios lend themselves to your illustration. 1. If someone questions the direction the ship is going in, he's looked on unfavorably by the crew and either changes his mind or gets thrown overboard (the lifeboats being reserved for more important personages). 2. In every port where your ship anchors, those on board (themselves having been persuaded to leave other ships) are sent ashore to persuade unsuspecting mates to leave their ships and board yours---where the only way off has sever consequences (better to stay aboard and keep quiet). You've more than suggested it, Eoin, and you're doing it again, along with the other doctrines attached to 1914 being the end of the Gentile times. There's absolutely zero evidence for it and probably would have been discarded by now except for the importance of the other WTS doctrines attached to it, namely, Jesus did not become King in 1914, the Messianic kingdom was not born in 1914, the presence of Jesus did not begin in 1914, and no inspection took place between 1914 and 1919, therefore no appointment of a faithful slave took place in 1919. Consider what my next question might be: What if the GB was NOT appointed as the faithful slave? They've already dropped the appointment they presumed over all of Jesus' earthly interests. Can they drop the appointment as His faithful slave in charge of all His believers and still maintain any credibility? From your posts, I'd say they can.

It's because the WTS does. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014268 2014 ***God's Kingdom Rules!*** A Letter From the Governing Body. Dear Fellow Kingdom Publisher: PICTURE yourself as a member of the Brooklyn Bethel family on Friday morning, October 2, 1914. You are seated at your usual place at the breakfast table, awaiting the arrival of Brother C. T. Russell. Suddenly the door to the dining room opens and Brother Russell appears. He pauses for a moment, as is his custom, and greets the Bethel family with a cheery “Good morning, all.” But then, instead of immediately taking his place at the head of the table, he claps his hands and makes a thrilling announcement: “The Gentile Times have ended; their kings have had their day!” And rightly so because the Governing Body was not appointed as the faithful slave for what they are teaching today but for what they were teaching up to 1919. Without knowing any more about this story than the vague details you've offered, and failing to see what this has to do with the question "Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology?" But......Christians stick to things said thousands of years ago in the Bible, so your criteria for judging the truth doesn't hold up. So you wanted a religion that keeps changing what you believe the Bible really teaches. Interesting. I see the WTS connection to Russell is that his teachings are what Jesus is said to have examined along with all the teachings from other Christian churches up to 1919, and subsequently accepting the former and rejecting the latter; thereafter making the leaders of the WTS the sole channel of communication from God to mankind. So, you're right, we should not be evaluating WTS standards of today because those were not what Jesus reviewed. We should be evaluating the same material Jesus reviewed to see if it really was the truth. I mean, Jesus wouldn't have found false teachings acceptable, would he. Have you ever studied the history of the WTS? Would some of those "new thoughts" be that the child born in Revelation 12 is the antichrist and Michael the Archangel in that same chapter is the Catholic Pope? How wise is it for a religious organization to call its teachings "the truth" and then change those teachings? Still, I wonder how Russell was able to calculate something that the Apostles couldn't, that Jesus couldn't, that the angels couldn't. You no doubt agree with Rutherford's assessment of the Great Pyramid that Russell termed "God's Stone Witness" and Rutherford called "Satan's Bible." But, no matter how sincere the Bible Students were, how could Jesus countenance calculations based on the pyramids? I know they get 1914 from Russell and he set the standard by which to judge whether or not he got 1914 from the Bible. 1914 fails that standard. See his book written in 1889, The Time Is At Hand, pgs. 76-79; it lists seven proofs that were going to show whether or not 1914 was really the end of the times of the Gentiles as Russell claimed it would be and as JWs today claim it was. Russell believed Jesus returned and began ruling as King in 1874. That's why he named his magazine Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence, because he believed Christ's Presence had begun in 1874. In 1890 he wrote Thy Kingdom Come in which he states the following about this: Volume 3 - "Thy Kingdom Come" / C301 - Thy God Reigneth! STUDY IX THY GOD REIGNETH! A Resume of the Prophetic Evidences Which Show the Presence of Immanuel, and that His Kingdom is in Process of Establishment. "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!" Isa. 52:7 IN view of all the evidences presented in this and the preceding volumes of this work, we have no hesitancy in proclaiming to the Lord's loyal and faithful people, his beloved Zion, this glorious intelligence: "Thy God Reigneth!" The oft-repeated prayer of the Church has been answered: the Kingdom of God has indeed come. In the days of the present kings of earth, before their lease of dominion expires, it is being set up. The dead in Christ are even now risen and exalted with our Lord and Head. And the "feet" members of the body of Christ, who still tarry in the flesh, catching the inspiration of the glorified throng who have already ascended into the mount (kingdom) of God, reflect a measure of that transcendent glory, as did Moses when he came down from Mount Sinai. The faces of these messengers shine with that heavenly joy which fills their hearts and overflows their lips as they commune together and with the Lord, and go heralding to every nation (mountain) the good tidings of Immanuel's reign begun. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him (the feet of the Christ) that bringeth good tidings of Millennial joy and peace, assuring Zion that the reign of our Lord is begun!Wonderful truths are these! the Kingdom of God in process of setting up; the Lord Jesus and the risen saints already here and engaged in the great harvest work, with whom we also, as members of that honored body, as the "feet of him," though still in the flesh, are permitted to be co-workers, to herald the good tidings among men and to apprise them of the significance of the wonderful and troublous events which must prepare the way for and introduce the glorious reign of righteousness. He believed Armageddon would end BEFORE 1914 and the Millennium would begin in 1914, that's why his STUDIES were originally called Millennial Dawn. Zion's Watch Tower, July 1, 1894 ::R1677 : page 226:: CAN IT BE DELAYED UNTIL 1914? Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in MILLENNIAL DAWN, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily! "The old is quickly passing, and the new is coming in." Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-- nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the View presented in the WATCH TOWER of Jan. 15, '92. We advise that it be read again. Yes, they did understand the scriptures referring to the great crowd. They viewed the great crowd as a heavenly group of anointed believers who were not quite as faithful as the 144,000 elite group. It wasn't until the 1930's that Rutherford threw them out of heaven, shut the door in their faces, and deprived them of partaking at the Memorial. Russell didn't inherit his beliefs about Revelation 12 from the Reformation. As I posted earlier, he was saying the child was the antichrist and Michael was the Pope. And as I just posted, Russell believed Jesus began ruling invisible from heaven in 1874. What this confirms is that the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, cannot be calculated through Bible chronology

And your opinion that has been coming thru loud and clear in your posts is that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not. If you have a different opinion than that, you should state it clearly instead of offering up analogies that end up saying the same thing your posts have been saying, to wit: that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not. It's your analogy, not mine, but it won't sail you away from the question in the OP.

Hmmmm......While I do appreciate your response, Arauna, you've left me with a struggle of trying to find an answer to the OP question in what you've posted. Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology? Russell set out seven specific events that would take place that would prove his speculations about 1914 were based on the Bible. None of those events have occurred, so Russell's calculations about 1914 were not derived through Bible chronology. I think they were derived from what he called God's "Stone Witness", the Great Pyramid in Egypt. This thing you say about the 'light getting brighter', apparently you are relating it to the ability of man to adapt to his environment, to invent faster modes of traveling, and to making life easier with conveniences. But when comparing Russell's time with that of the Apostles in the first century...if you are saying Russell was still in the dark, what does that say about those who were way before him. It's as though you're saying the Bible canon was closed too soon---Jehovah still had things to add to it. You don't mention the scriptures I shared in the OP. If Jesus' second coming could be calculated thru Bible chronology, there would be no point in telling His disciples that there were things they were not to know---yet if it could be calculated from the Bible, surely they would have done so. And even if they couldn't, certainly Jesus and the angels would be able to figure it out.

Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology? It's been brought to my attention that C.T. Russell, the founder of the WTS, believed Christ's return could be calculated by determining the length and termination point of the Gentile Times and by calculating the close of 6,000 years of human history. These scriptures speak to this directly and indicate that it is not so: Matthew 24:36-39 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Mark 13:32-37 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come. It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert. Therefore, be on the alert---for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning---in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep. What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'" Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

Your posts ARE expressing your personal opinions, Eoin. And you're still saying the same thing you've been saying all along, i.e., it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not. By extension, then, it doesn't really matter to you if Jesus did not become King in 1914, the Messianic kingdom was not born in 1914, the presence of Jesus did not begin in 1914, and no inspection took place between 1914 and 1919, therefore no appointment of a faithful slave took place in 1919. Someone once said that it was wise to examine not only what you personally believe but also what is taught by any church you may be associated with. Of course this also may not really matter to you either. Perhaps in your next segment you can explain why ships have lifeboats.

If your opinion is not that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not, could you clarify by stating clearly what your opinion is please. From what you've already posted, that is clearly what your opinion is. Isn't that why you said the Bible would still hold true even if 1914 doesn't, so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914. Isn't that why you said you'd be sticking with the faithful ones in Hebrews 11 who 'received a favorable witness because of their faith', since to them, it really doesn't matter if the Gentile time didn't end in 1914. Isn't that why you pointed out that "Jesus as Head of the Congregation is just as alert today as he was in the 1st Century", so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914. Isn't that why you said "Discussions and expectations about dates have presumably been going on one way or another ever since Jesus said he would return" so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile time didn't end in 1914. And Isn't that why said "Jehovah's Witnesses continue to develop, grow, prosper, and seem to be successful in whatever they turn their hands to", so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914. Clearly that is what Teresa is saying, that she's ready and willing to adjust her thinking to brighter new spiritual light on this when it comes, so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914.

Hi Teresa, thanks for the reply. It would appear then that you share Eoin Joyce's opinion that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not. If it's wrong, your religious leaders will discover it and change what you believe about it. What concerns me about 1914 is that the founder of your religion, Charles T. Russell, laid out seven events that would prove the scriptural accuracy of his predictions about 1914. None of them occurred, so we know 1914 is not based on the Bible but on the opinions of men. If it doesn't matter that they are wrong about 1914, does it matter that they[re wrong about other things, such as, say, the identity of the faithful slave? They've been wrong about it three times already. I mention this, not to change the subject, but just as a reminder of how closely tied it is to 1914 being the end of the Gentile times. In my post above I listed several other teachings that would be wrong if the Gentile times did not end in 1914: Jesus did not become King in 1914, the Messianic kingdom was not born in 1914, the presence of Jesus did not begin in 1914, and no inspection took place between 1914 and 1919, therefore no appointment of a faithful slave took place in 1919. This also would affect the good news of the Kingdom that JWs are preaching---it's birth/establishment in heaven in 1914. See, for instance, this remarkable claim on page 137 of the Proclaimers book:

It could have been removed when the purple cloak was removed since both had to do with his being a king and they were ridiculing him, but there is a reference by the WTS that he was still wearing the crown of thorns when he was put to death: [w56 4/15 p.251] . He was stripped of his clothes, nailed to the stake, wearing on his head a crown of thorns.