HollyW

Moses did speak for God, and wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The parallel you're drawing is that because Moses was imperfect and the men you are following are imperfect, it's okay to keep following them even when they're wrong. Shouldn't we then make that allowance for all men. The child of Revelation 12 is obviously Jesus, the Messiah. In 1914 the folks of the WTS believed it was the birth of the antichrist, but now you say it was the birth of the Messianic kingdom, and your book, "God's Kingdom Rules", calls this the greatest event ever to occur in the history of the world. But at the time that you say it occurred, in 1914, it was being called the birth of the antichrist by the WTS. Is this the Moses-like mistake that will keep them out of the promised land?

Amazing post, Ann. I was listening to the testimony of a JW who was faced with a similar dilemma when he came to Christ while still a JW. His talks before the congregation became filled with praise and glory toward Christ and were so powerful that a woman came up to him after one of his talks, with tears in her eyes, and said, "Brother, you don't believe in Jehovah any more, you're always talking about Jesus!"

I'm still trying to figure out how "spike" got into it.

From the very beginning of its existence. This is from the December 1879 WT (Zion's WT) p.2 You can download it online at http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/zions-watch-tower/ And this is from the book Jesus surely would have been inspecting in 1917: The Finished Mystery, Chapter 12 The Birth of the Antichrist, p.187: 12:5. And she brought forth a man child. — The papacy. — Z.'79-12-2. http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/finishedmystery/fmr12.html

I know you're having a struggle here with this teaching because you probably were not aware of it and haven't taken the time yet to research it. I did post the references from the WT publications, but you seem to have not taken them seriously.

And then they'll be tested by Satan and a vast multitude of them will join him and go to war against the other JWs. That's the teaching of the WTS. Why do you not know this? And the WTS teaches that even after that, those who survive that final test will still have death and annihilation in the lake of fire forever hanging over their heads for any mis-step they take.

Yes, that's the WT teaching exactly. As I posted earlier, directly from WT publications:

What is it we're agreeing to disagree on? That the apostle Paul said true Christians would be recognized for their constant changing of what they say the Bible really teaches, just the way the WTS has been doing for it's entire history? Is that what you're agreeing with? Because I certainly disagree with that. I wasn't implying anyone was tricked at all. I thought I was being very clear that JWs change their beliefs when the men on the governing body tell them to because they are listening to those men as though to the voice of God, just as those men have told them to. [w57 6/15 p.370] Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day, that we may continue in his favor. Listen to the inspired answer to the situation, in Matthew 24:45-47 (NW): “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” And has he? Yes, particularly since 1919 has it been true that he has appointed the collective body of the anointed remnant over all the visible interests of the Kingdom. The “slave” then became responsible not only for ministering to the needs of the anointed body members but also for taking on the responsibility of preaching the good news of the established Kingdom to people of all nations. (Matt. 24:14) Such is true not by their determination of it, but because God himself has so directed. “God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased,” is the way it is pictured in 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NW). It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision. If the "slave" is really to be listened to as you would to the voice of God, would you listen to a "slave" who said something like the child born in Revelation 12 is the antichrist?

That's what I thought---you don't know your own teaching, do you. Don't feel too bad about it, you're not alone. I've come across quite a few JWs who weren't aware the WTS teaches that even when everyone on earth is a JW (and perfect, too), there will be JWs who will be persuaded to go to war against other JWs. I've shown you the proof but you seem to have closed your eyes through the middle of my post so here it is again: Revelation 20:7-9 “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.” Your belief is that during the millennium everyone will live in peace and harmony, anyone out of harmony with (enemies of) Jehovah will either not be resurrected or will be summarily annihilated during that time, until by the end of the 1,000 years everyone on earth will have reached perfection and will have become perfectly sin-free, as Adam was before he sinned. Everyone on earth will have studied from the new WTS publications especially designed for them to come to know Jehovah and his requirements, and will have chosen to serve him as his Witnesses. But then Satan is released and persuades a vast number of these perfected JWs to go to war against their fellow JWs. I hope you read it this time and do some research into the WTS publications I quoted earlier, the 5/15/2006 wt p. 6-7 and the Revelation Climax book p.292. You call yourself a JW theologian, but you don't seem to be very well-versed in JW theology.

Do you believe the WTS has interpreted Revelation 20:7-9 incorrectly then? I posted their interpretation of it. Revelation 20:7-9 “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.” Your belief is that during the millennium everyone will live in peace and harmony, anyone out of harmony with (enemies of) Jehovah will either not be resurrected or will be summarily annihilated during that time, until by the end of the 1,000 years everyone on earth will have reached perfection and will have become perfectly sin-free, as Adam was before he sinned. Everyone on earth will have studied from the new WTS publications especially designed for them to come to know Jehovah and his requirements, and will have chosen to serve him as his Witnesses. But then Satan is released and persuades a vast number of these perfected JWs to go to war against their fellow JWs. So, is the WTS wrong, or is this something you weren't aware of?

I don't know if you're being deceitful about what the WTS teaches, or if you don't know the WTS teaches that brother will be pitted against brother at the end of the 1,000 years. [w06 5/15 p.6-7] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone, perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5) Revelation 20:7-9 “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.” [re p.292] 21. How will Satan’s last effort fare? He deceives “those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,” and leads them to “the war.” Who could possibly side with Satan after a thousand years of joyful, upbuilding theocratic rule? Well, do not forget that Satan was able to mislead the perfect Adam and Eve while they were enjoying life in the Paradise of Eden. And he was able to lead astray heavenly angels who had seen the bad results of the original rebellion. (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6) So we should not be surprised that some perfect humans will be enticed to follow Satan even after a delightful thousand years of rule by God’s Kingdom. While Christians of today are imperfect, these JWs at the end of the 1,000 years are said to be 'perfect humans who meet God's standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually'. You need to be considering what their excuse will be.

Both of those quotes support the point that your thoughts are controlled by the WTS.....and that's whether you agree with them or not, and whether you think it is strange or unusual. We can clear this up promptly with your answer to this question: Which "truth" is it that you're here defending, the one about the 144,000 being the faithful slave, or the one about the men on the governing body being the faithful slave?

You're the one who brought Catholics and the Pope into this discussion. You also theorized that " a group of Catholic sympathizers pretending to be Jehovah’s Witnesses orchestrated that defilement to tarnish the Watchtower". But you offer no evidence of this whatsoever, which makes it as lame as the accusation in the OP. I don't think the WTS needs any help from Catholics, it's quite capable of tarnishing itself.

Really? What do you make of this: (Watchtower, August 1, 2001, p. 14) A mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “one-ness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45. And this: (Watchtower, November 15, 2013, p.20) Simplified Edition: At that time, the direction that you receive from Jehovah’s organization may seem strange or unusual. But all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether we agree with them or not, because obeying these instructions will save our lives. Study Edition: At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.

Even though knowledge, prophesying, and tongues would one day cease, this does NOT fit the changes being made by the WTS for all these decades. That's why I explained to you in some detail how these scriptures are not applicable to either the question in the OP nor to the history of the WTS. Even in simple terms, it doesn't seem to have registered with you yet. What would you consider to be a balanced and unbiased approach to a group of men who say to listen to them as you would to the voice of God? If they said that because they are still babies, would you consider it wise to listen to them as you would to the voice of God? The changes made between the Mosaic covenant and the New Covenant were inspired by God and outlined in his Word, such as circumcision being a spiritual event rather than a physical one, and in no way can this be used as an excuse for the changes the governing body has been making to the beliefs of JWs for all these years. That you are willing to accept what they tell you to believe reveals your dedication at baptism was not to God but to the governing body of the WTS organization, which is why you believe you are to change your beliefs about what the Bible really teaches whenever the men on the WTS governing body tell you to change them.

Shiwii is correct. You're the one feeding into sensationalizing this without any support for your careless remarks. Can you produce evidence that shows Catholics did this vandalism on the orders of the Pope? If not, you should probably not say anything more about it. And...the truth is Nelson Barbour was NOT a Catholic Priest. Didn't you know that? Or are you referring to the former Catholic priest your translation of John 1:1 is based on? The one the WTS said was in touch with demons. Don't even start on the negligence perpetrated toward abuse victims by the WTS with their two-witness rule and reluctance to report abuse crimes to the police and child welfare. They have as much to answer to God concerning this as does the Catholic church and any church that covers this crime up.

Evidently you've forgotten that the WTS teaches that even after a thousand years of studying their publications to finally become perfect and meet God's standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually, JWs will still be persuaded to go to war against other JWs. Being perfect at that time, what's their excuse?!

JWT, I don't know of any religious organization more critical than the WTS is of other Christians. The very first WT was said to have been born because of a disagreement Russell had about the ransom with another Christian who was the editor of "Herald of the Morning". Making up stories about Catholics is just as bad as making them up about JWs. You aren't doing any one any good by doing that.

Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you..........12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved......17 So that this does not spread any further among the people, let us threaten them and tell them not to speak to anyone anymore on the basis of this name.” 18 With that they called them and ordered them not to say anything at all or to teach on the basis of the name of Jesus. 19 But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves. 20 But as for us, we cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.” Acts 5:28 “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.”+29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men. The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake. 31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”

Hi JWT, I wonder where you get the idea that Christian churches are not fulfilling the great commission to make disciples and baptize them, teaching them to obey everything Jesus commanded. The WTS hasn't even been around for 200 years, while the spread of Christianity has been going on for nearly 2,000 years!

Well, Mr V, you pressed me for my opinions about Paul's statements in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 and I gave them. Please tell me how anything in those scriptures apply to the changes the WTS has made in what they said were true Bible teachings, especially those since you were baptized. Why do you consider what I've posted as being a worst case scenario? Even the WTS says that these scriptures are not applicable to the growth and knowledge humans go thru from babyhood to adulthood. And Paul is not talking about that either. He is speaking about spiritual matters, gifts of the Holy Spirit. Nor is he talking about teaching wrong understandings and having to correct them. Your analogy to a baby would only apply if you believed the leaders of the WTS resembled babies when they began back in the 1870's and still haven't reached adulthood, therefore you continue to follow what they say are true Bible teachings with the expectation that sometime in the future they will finally reach maturity and be able to teach as mature adults and not need to correct any misunderstandings. But that isn't what you believe, is it. You believe they are teaching what our heavenly Father and Christ Jesus want them to teach and that's why you are willing to accept what they tell you the Bible teaches, even if that changes what they told you the Bible was teaching when you were baptized. Isn't that how you would answer the question in the OP?

Those scriptures there in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 don't apply to the question asked in the OP, unless you're saying what Paul was teaching were expectations and understandings that would have to be adjusted to other expectations and other understandings later in the future. IOW that Jehovah had purposely let him teach errors in order for him to realize his need to look always to Him and His Word. But if you believe those scriptures do apply to the changes and adjustments the WTS has made in what is supposed to be considered as true Bible teachings, let's take another look at them with that in mind. 1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. Is Paul saying that he expected prophesies themselves to be wrong and need adjusting, or that there would come a time when the Holy Spirit would not move anyone to prophesy because all prophecy had been fulfilled and prophesying would no longer be needed? Was he saying that what the disciples spoke in tongues was wrong and would be adjusted sometime later, or was he saying there would be a time when the gift of tongues would not be needed....not that the messages and interpretations given for them had been mistaken. If the knowledge Paul mentions in verse 8 is the ordinary knowledge common to all mankind thru experiences and studies, that of course would change, but he isn't referring to that kind of knowledge, is he. He's referring to spiritual knowledge we receive thru the Holy Spirit. Is he saying that the knowledge imparted by the Holy Spirit would be in need of re-examination and adjustment, or is he saying there would be a time when this gift of knowledge would not be needed? You would have Paul saying that the partial knowledge and the partial prophesying he had was itself wrong, but what he's saying is that it is partial and not complete yet. He's not saying he misunderstood anything and had to make adjustments in his understanding.

Great post, Ann. There's also this in 1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under[i]the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law,as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

You can't really be saying Paul was teaching wrong expectations and misunderstandings that he had adjust later.

The point I was making is that nothing would change for you even if the men on the governing body did claim to be infallible. You accept and obey what they say just as though they do claim to be infallible.