HollyW

I've never actually encountered a JW who so readily goes against WTS teaching by trying to throw Russell under the bus. Even though they don't claim JWs, current Bible Students claim Russell and his Bible Students as their predecessors, just as JWs do. You've quoted from a current Bible Students web page which shows they do and I linked you to the WT brochure which shows JWs do. And it's not just in the JW brochure but throughout WTS publications references are made to the JW beginnings in the 1870's as Bible Students. Even the current identity of the faithful slave goes back to before Rutherford instituted the name change. I have not told any lies and I ask that you stop with the personal insults. If that's the only way you know how to discuss your religion, there's no point in continuing any discussion with you.

Allen, it was just a name change in 1931. They were the same folks who had been celebrating Christmas as Bible Students. When did the WTS start separating itself from its own history? It sure doesn't do that in the 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules" nor in their brochure https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/jehovahs-will/bible-truth-rediscovered/ which refers to the Bible Students as your predecessors, the ones you say Jehovah was blessing with spiritual insight to "rediscover" what the Bible really teaches.

It's obvious you don't have a clue about child abuse. The only way your statements make any sense is if you don't know the history of your own religion.

There's a 2015 KM article, "How to Witness Using a Literature Display", that has some suggestions: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/202015126?q=cart+witnessing&p=par These are the do's and don't's listed in it: Do: Be friendly, welcoming, and helpful to passersby. Some publishers give a warm, genuine smile and say a friendly greeting. If someone looks at the display as he passes by, you might say, “You can take something if you like.” Stand at an appropriate distance from the display. In some places publishers experience success when they stand within a few feet of the display. Others find that this method makes passersby hesitant to stop, so they stand a little farther away and wait until someone stops at the display. Once a person approaches the display, try to engage him in conversation, perhaps by asking, “Have you ever thought about that question before?” Use the Bible as often as possible. Explain the Bible study arrangement to anyone who takes one of our study publications, such as the Bible Teach book. Offer to play the video Why Study the Bible? on an electronic device. Obtain contact information from interested ones when possible. If the person does not live in your territory, fill out a Please Follow Up (S-43) form, and give it to the secretary as soon as possible. Don’t: Be aggressive, insistent, or pushy or stand next to the display like a sentinel. View this form of witnessing as simply a way to distribute literature. When we are in the ministry, our goal is to start Bible studies, so we should try to engage individuals in conversation. Block the display or become too engrossed in conversation with your partner. If you must use your cell phone for a personal call, it is usually best to step away from the display. Get involved in debates with opposers. If an opposer becomes abusive, it may be necessary to move to another location.

It's shameful that victims of abuse have to face this kind of condemnation from JWs such as yourself who are trying to protect the WTS at all costs. It's difficult enough for a victim of abuse to come forward. With this kind of criticism awaiting them, it's a wonder any of them have brought this profound fault within the WTS to light. From the lawsuits brought against them, they are failing miserably. And from your attitude, they've failed to instill in you their goal of "treating such ones with thoughtfulness, tenderness, and kindness." [2010 Shepherd the Flock of God, p.53] I hope that at some point you try to use truth to set the record straight. Your religion did celebrate Christmas, and were doing so at a time you say Jesus was inspecting them and finding them "faithful and wise", dispensing spiritual food in due season. Was that the season to be celebrating Christmas?

You're do that right now. Thank you for that astute comparison, Allen. The Catholic Pope and the Mormons being as wrong as the WTS is doesn't make the WTS right, it just make it as wrong as they are. The WTS does regress in its teachings. Take the identity of the faithful slave, for instance. It began by teaching that the faithful slave was all of the 144,000. Then it changed and taught that Russell alone was the faithful slave. Then they went back to the former teaching, regressing back to the 144,000 being the faithful slave, even saying it was doing violence to the scriptures to exclude any of the 144,000 from the faithful slave designation. Now they have narrowed it again to just the handful of men on the governing body. They've done the same with the generation of Matthew 24:34, going back and forth on it being worldly people, then the anointed, then worldly people, then the anointed.

The thing is, while on the one hand the WTS says the Bible has come down to us accurately, it also says the texts were tampered with in "one of the saddest and most reprehensible" ways, that of removing God's name. The Society also calls into question translations of the Bible that have done this, saying: Show discernment in the selection of the Bible you use. (Proverbs 19:8) If a translation is not honest about the identity of God himself—removing his name from his inspired Word on whatever pretext—might the translators also have tampered with other parts of the Bible text? [Watchtower 10/1/1997 p.20]

That's why I was pointing out that it's the WTS reference that is showing Jesus is Jehovah since it is their claim that ʼA·dhohn′, “Lord; Master,” when preceded by the definite article ha, “the,” gives the expression ha·ʼA·dhohn′, “the [true] Lord.” The use of the definite article ha before the title ʼA·dhohn′ limits the application of this title exclusively to Jehovah God. [rbi8 1h p.1568] When asked about Romans 10:9 and the NWT footnote, it was explained in this way: Translating the Greek word Ky′ri·os into Hebrew as ha-A·dōn′ is merely the opinion of certain translators, for in the Greek text the definite article does not occur with “Lord” in this verse.[QFR w81 8/1 p. 31] However, in the OT scriptures the WTS cites as having haAdohn in the Hebrew, when translated into Greek in the LXX the definite article does not occur with "Lord" in those verses either. In the NWT it is said that the expression ha·ʼA·dhohn′ occurs nine times, namely, in Ex 23:17; 34:23; Isa 1:24; 3:1; 10:16, 33; 19:4; Mic 4:13; Mal 3:1. In the Greek translation of these verses, the definite article occurs with "Lord" only in Micah 4:13.

From what I've seen in the WTS publications, it's fine as long as the hospital respects the medical beliefs of JWs. And, really, until the WTS sponsors and owns its own hospital, what other choice do JWs have.

Our old NWT Bibles (1950, 1951, 1963) used to include a statement about them altogether like this: All together, the appearances of the sacred Tetragrammaton in the 19 Hebrew versions to which we have had access total up to 307 distinct occurrences." But we didn't count all of the "distinct occurrences." There are over 100 additional distinct occurrences that we didn't count because we couldn't use them. Just a few examples will show why. This has already been started on other sites that I copy from below. They include HollyW's examples: 1 Corinth. 12:3 in J14 "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord (יהוה), except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Thess. 4:16,17 in J7,8,13,14,24 2 Timothy 1:18 in J7,8,13,14,16,17,18,22,23,24 Hebrews 1:10 in J8 in which Jehovah addresses the Son using the Divine Name. 1 Peter 2:3 in J13, J14 1 Peter 3:15 in J7 J20 (Concordance to the Greek Testament) cites יהוה at both 1 Peter 2:3 and 1 Peter 3:15. Revelation 16:5 in J7,8,13,14,16 Romans 10:9 in J12-14, 16-18, 22 Acts 26:14,15 in J17,J18 "'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' But I said, 'Who are you Lord?" And the Lord (haAdohn - Jehovah God) said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.'" [Several places in the J Docs even name the Holy Spirit as YHWH.] Thank you, JW Insider, for your comprehensive research and for bringing up haAdohn in Romans 10:9. The WTS reference about haAdohn shows that Jesus is Jehovah.

With all the hedging you're doing to keep from answering my question, I'm just going to assume your answer is Yes, if the governing body did change their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus after you were baptized, you do believe you should be required to believe it on pain of excommunication and shunning.

I understand you are lashing out at us personally due to your own frustration, Allen, but that's hardly conducive to having a productive discussion. In the end you are casting the WTS leaders as first grade teachers who were teaching falsehoods to their followers for decades, and still are. Is that really what you want to do? It's interesting you bring up Santa Claus....I was taught he is not real but Jesus is, and Christmas is the celebration of his birth. Please don't tell me JWs don't buy toys for their children. Just in case you aren't aware of it, your religion celebrated Christmas until the 1920's. The following was the view of the founder of your religion: [ZWT 1904, 12/1 p.364] Even though Christmas is not the real anniversary of our Lord's birth, but more properly the annunciation day or the date of his human begetting (Luke 1:28), nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate--"Christmas Day." You can download and read the article at this website: http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/zions-watch-tower/

Allen, perhaps reading comprehension wasn't your best subject. As I said, learning something new is quite different from having learned something false in first grade that had to be corrected in fifth grade. Let me give you a 'for instance' to help shed light on what I said. In first grade 2 + 2 was 4. In fifth grade it was still the same even when other math concepts were taught. Do you understand? I agree with you that it is Bible truth that matters, not personal opinions about wrong expectations or wrong understandings. When a religious leader says that Bible truth is the child born in Rev 12 is the antichrist, would that be something Jesus would consider food in due season? The WTS says he would and did, selecting the WTS as God's sole channel of communication to mankind when they were teaching it. Does that appear to be reasonable to you? In every single child molestation case there are already two witnesses: the victim and the predator. The men on the WTS governing body need to know that and report every accusation to the proper authorities. They want to hide behind an OT law that was never, ever applied to the molestation or rape of a child. If they are not in tune with Jehovah's heart on this, they need to step down from their leadership positions.

Learning something new is quite different from having learned something false in first grade that had to be corrected in fifth grade. Has the WTS dropped its required two witnesses to child molestation? That would be real progress.

No, Allen, what I learned in first grade was still just as true as when I was in fifth grade. Your analogy doesn't work, does it. Notice how often current WT publications refer back to the early days of the WTS. The 2014 book "God's Kingdom Rules" even invites you to imagine yourself back in 1914 in the dining hall at the NYC headquarters. And the brochure "Who Are Doing Jehovah's Will" says that it was Russell and his group of Bible Students who were being blessed with spiritual insight by Jehovah to "rediscover" Bible truths. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/jehovahs-will/bible-truth-rediscovered/ Yet the bulk of what they were supposedly rediscovering has been discarded by JWs today---so much for the new concept of Bible understanding you spoke of. It's good that JWs are striving to learn Bible truth because they've got quite a ways to go yet....a good place to start is with the Bible itself and praying for the Holy Spirit to guide you. The WTS cautions that if you rely on just the Bible you will believe in the Trinity, hellfire, immortal soul, and celebrating Christmas. As to my example of what Russell and his followers were led to believe about the child born in Rev. 12---you now say it was the Messianic Kingdom but when it was being born your church was saying it was the antichrist. In your relatively new book, "God's Kingdom Rules", that event is pointed back to and the incorrect idea is given that Russell and his followers were being prepared for it. But how could that be when they thought it was the birth of the antichrist?

You're welcome, Witness. And thanks for those powerful scriptures. You mention how often "obey God as ruler rather than men" is found at jw.org. It's revealing that both times this is referred to in Acts it is about preaching in the name of Jesus: Acts 4:18 And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20 for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” Acts 5:28 “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and(B)intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men." It brings to mind the question: why weren't they preaching in Jehovah's name?

Thanks, Allen. While it's understood that JWs do believe the WTS is the organization God is using, the question is, why? From your reply, I'd say you believe it's because it has been dispensing the proper food at the proper time. Is that right? You must therefore believe there were times when Jehovah wanted wrong teachings to be dispensed as proper food, such as the identity of the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45, for instance. Was it the proper time from 1879 to 1927 to teach that the child born in Rev. 12 was the antichrist?

It's kind of funny that the WTS has Adam and Jesus being equal (before Adam sinned) yet it's only the 144,000 who become like Jesus while everyone else becomes like Adam. With perfection, JWs are to view it in two ways: absolute and relative---assigning absolute perfection only to the Father while relative perfection is what anyone and anything else have. Relative perfection is along the lines of what Eoin Joyce has been posting.....so you probably don't agree on the perfection of Jesus.

I understand the problem you're facing. The only defense you can come up with against the evidence from the WTS publications themselves is that these false prophecies weren't actual prophecies since the ones prophesying claimed they weren't prophets inspired by God. The evidence proves they were not inspired by God, but it also proves they thought what they were teaching was coming from God, just as Russell said about his dates being God's dates. You mention "spurious sources". Are you referring to the WTS publications this evidence is coming from?

The WTS would disagree with you since they consider the apostles John and Paul as prophets, along with Agabus, and the daughters of Philip, The older publications of the WTS are available online at these websites: http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf, http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/zions-watch-tower/ and http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/

Have you noticed what is being said about this particular false teaching in the recent WT book, "God's Kingdom Rules"? On page 22 there's this: "Long before 1914, the Bible Students said that a time of trouble would begin in that marked year." The truth is that long before 1914 they were saying the time of trouble would END, not begin, in 1914, just as you've posted. ZWT 7/1/1894 p.226: "But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." The statement in the 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules" isn't a false prophecy or misunderstanding or wrong expectation or human error---it's an outright lie.

You seem to be making the point that the prophesying the WTS has been doing has not been inspired by God----which we already knew! However, your religion's founder believed the dates he had come up with were God's dates: 1894, July 1, ZWT p.226: We see no reason for changing the figures-- nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the View presented in the WATCH TOWER of Jan. 15, '92. We advise that it be read again. http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf Does "false teacher" sound more reasonable to you than "false prophet" when it comes to all these things the WTS has said would happen (but didn't)?

Well, the wearing of the cross in the cross and crow lapel pin used to be considered by your religion to symbolize the death of Christ, and to encourage, sustain and comfort the household of faith. It was at one time featured in a window at Brooklyn Bethel with the words, “IN THE CROSS OF CHRIST WE GLORY”, and the lapel pin was given to visitors at the WTS headquarters in NYC. It also was portrayed very prominently in the funeral of your religion's founder, C.T. Russell. Christ Himself said that when he was lifted up (on the cross) he would draw all men to him, John 3:14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life." John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” If you view the JW.Org logo as something which draws others to Christ, could that be seen as worship?

If the NWT is using the Hebrew OT as its guide for translating the Greek "kyrios" as "Jehovah", it would follow that regardless of what the LXX has, any Category #3 verses would rely on the OT and use "Jehovah". Are Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:9-11 instances of this? Regarding the J docs of Category #4, the NWT translation committee appears to have not followed them exactly because there are a number of instances in them when "Jehovah" is used but the NWT does not. 1 Cor. 12:3 and 2 Timothy 1:18 are some examples of this.

I'm not sure how your reasoning concludes prophecy is not the result of prophesying. Prophesy is the verb which produces the noun, prophecy. Even the NWT says so at Romans 12:6 Since, then, we have gifts that differ according to the undeserved kindness given to us, if it is of prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; Prophecy obviously comes from prophesying. How are you using these terms in order to view the prophesying the WTS says it's been doing as not being prophecies? As to the qualifications of a religion that keeps correcting its false beliefs, wouldn't it more reflect a religion that was wrong in the first place rather than a religion that has the true teachings from the Bible and thus has no need to change its beliefs?