HollyW

......Jesus said the world would hate his followers because of his name: Matthew 24:9 “Then people will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name." Acts 4:18 With that they called them and charged them, nowhere to make any utterance or to teach upon the basis of the name of Jesus. Acts 5:27 So they brought them and stood them in the Sanhedrin hall. And the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We positively ordered you not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name, and yet, look! You have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” Acts 5:40 At this they gave heed to him, and they summoned the apostles, flogged them, and ordered them to stop speaking upon the basis of Jesus’ name, and let them go. Remember, it was Jehovah's people, the Jews, who were the ones seeking to kill Jesus. They provided the false witnesses against him, and they told the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, “His blood come upon us and upon our children.”

The WTS says that Jesus was at one time favorable to C.T. Russell being the man with the inkhorn marking his followers with a the shape of the cross (+): The Finished Mystery, WTS 1917: http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/finishedmystery/fme9.html EZEKIEL 9 417 THE MAN WITH THE INKHORN 9:1. He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. — Chapter 9 depicts the slaughter of the idolaters of Jerusalem. It types the literal slaughter of the spiritual idolaters of Christendom in the Time of Trouble, and also their destruction as tares (Matt. 13:40) by the Word of Truth, which will manifest their true condition and cause them to cease the pretense of being Christians. The picture corresponds to the harvesting of wheat and tares by the sickle of Truth (Rev. 14:15), and the burning of the tares. There is a two-fold significance here — those having material charge of Christendom, and those having spiritual charge (D527.) The first class comprises the rulers of the great nations; the second class, the feet members of the Little Flock (Luke 12:32) — "All things are yours." (1 Cor. 3:21); "Inheritors of the Kingdom" (Gal. 5:21); "Given charge of all His goods" (Luke 12:44), the Bible truths. The first class has as weapons the armies and navies. The second has the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. 9:2. And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the North, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar. — The six with earthly weapons are the rulers of the six great nations — Russia, Germany, Austria, France England and Italy. The six with the Sword of the Spirit symbolize all the Elijah class, the six, with one other, making up the seven, the complete number. These have their commission from "the north," from the seat of Divine Dominion, from God Himself. Practically all Bible translators and commentators agree that the one with a writer's inkhorn by his side was not one of the six, but a seventh, garbed as a priest, or as a clerk or officer in an army of the East. The linen signifies the imputed righteousness of Christ, (Rev. 19:8.) The writer's inkhorn symbolizes that the seventh man's function was to write. God identified him thus: When The Watch Tower Bible And Tract Society was at Allegheny, Pa., an open Bible was to be 418 painted on one of the large front windows of the office. A sign painter, not in the Truth, painted the open Bible; and without instruction from any one, of his own volition, he painted the Bible as open at Ezekiel, Chapter 9. The man in linen was the Laodicean servant, the Lord's faithful and wise steward, Pastor Russell. When Pastor Russell saw this, he turned pale. Ezekiel seeing the man in linen, types Pastor Russell thereafter seeing himself to be the antitype of that man — one of the most prolific writers of the Age, and the only one to write and publish widely the glad tidings of the actual Second Presence of Christ. The seven men stood beside the brazen altar — there, in connection with God's Plan, based upon the Ransom sacrifice to receive their Divinely appointed commission. [....] 9:4. And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. — The center of Christendom is the nations of the United States, Canada, Great Britain, France, Germany, Russia and Scandinavia. Hither and thither, traveling and preaching for nearly forty years Pastor Russell obeyed this command; and through the printed page of books, tracts and newspapers he went into every corner of the world. "Set a mark", literally "set a 'tav' upon the foreheads." The "Tav" was the twenty-second letter of the Hebrew alphabet, and in its earlier form had the shape of a cross (+)." The forehead signifies the intellect (Rev. 7:3; 14:1). Pastor Russell's great work was to imprint indelibly in the minds of certain ones the truth about the Cross, the sacrifice of the Christ, Head and Body, and the part of the Church therein. It was the duty of the clerk or officer of an oriental army to mark the people, either for slaughter or to be left untouched. The "mourners in Zion" (Isa. 61:3) are those faithful ones in Christendom that appreciate that conditions are evil in churchianity, perhaps with- 419 out understanding just how. All those are to be marked in their minds with the knowledge of the Present Truth.

Even though it would mark a turning away from what they had said was the truth, I don't think the men on the WTS GB would consider their actions to be apostasy, even though that IS their definition of it. More likely it will read something similar to the presentation of changed beliefs used in the 11/15/2016 WT: For many years, this journal suggested that the times of the Gentiles ended in 1914 and "the one who has the legal right" to the Davidic crown, Jesus Christ, became King in that year. However, for reasons that we shall outline in this article and in the one following, a re-examination of the subject was necessary. The scripture this puts me in mind of is not found in Hebrews.....it's in 2 Timothy 3:7 "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Thank you, Witness! Yes, I'm very interested......how timely! Eoin Joyce and I were just discussing the subject of changing beliefs!

Well, I'd be among the last one to tell you to keep clinging to an incorrect teaching such as the Gentile times ending in 1914, and it's good that you're open to changing your belief about it, even expecting to do so from the sounds of things. That's the thing to do, isn't it, when a teaching you believed was based on the Bible turns out to be based instead on the speculations and expectations of men. So, the Gentile times did not end in 1914, Jesus did not become King in 1914, the Messianic kingdom was not born in 1914, the presence of Jesus did not begin in 1914, and no inspection took place between 1914 and 1919, therefore no appointment of a faithful slave took place in 1919. You can see the domino effect dropping 1914 would have, which might be why it hasn't been changed yet.

I think that's what we're talking about, Eoin----there's every reason to expect change in the future, even of the date 1914 for the end of the Gentile times. And when that change takes place, there will be a number of other teachings that will go with it.

You're quite welcome, Eoin. It means, doesn't it, that for the WTS to say, "Here's the Christ" in 1876 (pointing back to 1874) it was a false claim. They've admitted it was false---well, that was probably not the word that was used---"error" is probably closer to what they've said. And, of course, in 1914 they were still saying "Here's the Christ", still pointing back to 1874, AND they were saying the birth of the Messianic kingdom in Revelation 12:6,7 was the birth of the Antichrist! (see Ch. 12 of "The Finished Mystery" of 1917). So If the gentile times did not end in 1914, the WTS would again be in the position of having falsely proclaimed, "Here is the Christ!" Since they've tied Jesus' becoming King with that date, that belief who have to be adjusted, as would---here's a thought!!---as would the good news of the kingdom being established in heaven in 1914. It would be an event JWs would still be waiting for just as they are now awaiting the appointment of the Anointed over all the Master's belongings (an appointment that had been presumed to have occurred in 1919). However, you may still consider this no big deal one way or the other.

Thanks, Eoin. I agree with you that the Gentile Times not ending in 1914 would not cause any scriptures to not hold good. And it may seem like it's no big deal one way or the other, as your post seems to indicate. But there's something else in what the WTS teaches about that date that would have to be revised as well. Take a look: Luke 21:24 “And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations [“times of the Gentiles,” KJ, RS] are fulfilled.” In the appendix of the Bible Teach book, this scripture in Luke 21:24 is tied to this one in Ezekiel 21:27: Ezekiel 21:27 "It will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.” And this is explained as "The one who has the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. So the 'trampling' would end when Jesus became King. [bh p.216-218] And this in turn is said to mark the fulfillment of Revelation 12:5 "And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod," which you believe was the birth of the Messianic Kingdom in 1914 showing that Jesus had become King. It would mean, then, that the WTS has been wrong yet again about the presence of Jesus (teaching in 1914 that it had already taken place in 1874), which calls to mind the following scriptures from Matthew 24: Matthew 24:23-27 "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned you. Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

"Take off the last 2." Sorry 'bout that, Eoin. I wondered why no one was answering. I guess it must have confused more than just you. Let's go with the original question, then, and we'll get to the others as we go along. What if the Gentile Times did not end in 1914?

I agree, Ann, The car group definitely missed a witnessing opportunity. If the other fellow in the van who ducked down and put his hands over his ears is the elder who is supposed to accompany convicted sex offenders, he could have come 'round and explained the WT policies and assured Vargas that this man was being carefully monitored by him while out representing the WTS in field service. Could have had it all on camera, but they shut their car doors and left the neighborhood.

I think there's been new understanding about this, JWs are to obey the elders even if they are wrong: [wt 4/1/2007 p.28, par.8-9] 8 We obey the elders not only because we are directed to do so in God’s Word but also because we are persuaded that they have Kingdom interests and our best interests at heart. We will certainly be happy if we willingly accept their leadership. 9 What, though, if we are not convinced that in a certain case the elders’ direction is the best way of doing things? That is where submission comes into play. It is easy to obey when everything is clear and we agree, but we will show that we are truly submissive if we yield even when we do not personally understand the direction provided.

Very well said, Ann!

The obligations of the congregation? Can you elaborate on that?

Well, would an allegation made by a victim to you be a complaint that you'd definitely report to the police?

Direct evidence? Do you mean an eye-witness? Are you excluding suspected abuse then? From this website http://www.churchlawandtax.com/cltr/2013/july-august/2013-child-abuse-reporting-laws-for-churches.html there's this: Every state has a child abuse reporting law that requires persons designated as mandatory reporters to report known or reasonably suspected incidents of child abuse. Ministers are mandatory reporters in many states. Some states exempt ministers from reporting child abuse if they learned of the abuse in the course of a conversation protected by the clergy-penitent privilege. Ministers may face criminal and civil liability for failing to report child abuse. In one of the child abuse cases against the WTS, they tried to claim clergy-penitent privilege because of a confession but the court ruled that since the confession was to more than one person (two or three elders had to hear it) it was not considered to be a case of clergy-penitent privilege. It's sickening enough that the WTS would try to use that, and it's ironic that their procedure of having two or three elders in on it worked against them.

Amen.

Great post, Ann. If the WTS was really God's organization, it would have set the moral standard for all the other organizations to follow long ago. Instead it has reacted in such a way that protects itself and the predator, at the expense of the victim, the endangerment of the congregation, and abandonment of the elders who can be found individually culpable for not reporting this crime to the police.

Your post has cleared up a lot of things for me. Thanks. I was wondering if maybe they believed bullying, abusive speech, and unkindness make JWs look good. Does that mean that if you found out a JW had abused a child, would you go to the police or the elders, or maybe both?

Good question, Mr V And good quote, Witness. The importance of this scripture to JWs becomes evident when considering their history of beliefs they thought were revealed in the Bible but turned out not to be after all, and those beliefs were re-examined and adjusted. For instance, at one time they believed the Bible revealed organ transplants were cannibalism and were forbidden by God. However, further testing of this belief caused them to adjust their thinking about it and they realized God did not consider it cannibalism. It was the same with vasectomies and tubal ligations, believed at one time to be the mutilation that God forbids, but further testing of their beliefs with what the Bible reveals showed them it was not mutilation at all, but responsible planning. A more recent adjustment has been the identity and appointment of the faithful slave. At one time they believed the faithful slave was just one person, but testing of this belief brought them to the conclusion that the Bible revealed all of the 144,000 should be viewed as the faithful slave, Further testing has revealed that to be in need of adjustment. Let's hope that further testing will reveal to them that all Christians are called upon to be faithful and wise servants.

Taken from Luke 21:24 “And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations [“times of the Gentiles,” KJ, RS] are fulfilled.” What would it mean for the WTS and JWs if 1914 was not the end of the Gentile times? In light of what Russell had said would happen, and didn't, it's very likely that 1914 did not see the fulfillment of Luke 21:24 after all. What teachings hinge on this date and would need to be understood differently when and if the Governing Body changes JW's belief about 1914?

If everyone on earth were a Jehovah's Witness, would there still be wars? The WTS answer may surprise you....because its answer is Yes. The WTS teaches that during the millennium everyone will live in peace and harmony, anyone out of harmony with (enemies of) Jehovah will either not be resurrected or will be summarily annihilated during that time, until by the end of the 1,000 years everyone on earth will have reached perfection physically, mentally, morally, spiritually; and will have become perfectly sin-free, as Adam was before he sinned. Everyone on earth will have studied from the new WTS publications (Revelation 20:12) especially designed for them to come to know Jehovah and his requirements, and will have chosen to serve him as his Witnesses. But then Satan is released and persuades a vast number of these perfect Jehovah's Witnesses to go to war against fellow JWs.

Why do you believe the WTS is the organization Jehovah is using? Hmmmm......still no answer. Is it because you don't know why you believe it?

I wondered who that was.