Anna

There.You've hit the nail on the head.

I can't stop laughing at your dialogues with each other That should be a book in its own right! (no doubt @TrueTomHarley that's precisely what's going through your mind)

Well I guess Ann, you don't view the Bible as authority from God, many do however. This is a sweeping statement. People's reasons for leaving are many and don't necessarily mean they want to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle. Regarding 'unacceptable behaviors,' this is judged, of course, through the lens of current JW doctrinal interpretations. What may be unacceptable to the Org, may not actually be unacceptable scripturally. That is why I said most. That is all I have known to be the reasons in my more than 30 years of being a JW, except for two cases. One family in my congregation left because "they wanted to take a break". Nobody pursued them or tried to coerce them to come back. And the other was a former Catholic, who left JW upon finding out about the pedophilia scandal (Panorama). Nobody pursued or tried to coerce her to come back either. I am not making any of this up because I knew both sets of people very well, including what happened after they left. As regards unacceptable behavior, care to give me some examples of where this is actually not unacceptable in the scripture? Every loyal JW is able to asses their own situation and ascertain whether particular advice, recommendations or timely warning applies to them. As regards elders whose household members pursue higher education, well this all depends on the circumstances of course, hence the "may". Of course if an elder's children are baptized and pursuing higher education, are never seen out in field service or partaking in any other theocratic activity, this indicates that the father has not been presiding over his household in a fine manner as regards "putting the Kingdom first" since his baptized children are evidently putting a worldly career first. I have known an elder whose son went to university while living at home and at the same time put Kingdom interests first in his life. Even closer to home, my own husband, a min. servant at the time (he is my ex now) started going to college for an engineering degree at the insistence of my mother (who is a loyal JW) and two years into his studies was being trained to be an elder. It's all about the attitude, as always

Yes, good scriptures, and I cited others in my posts on this thread. My point is that all of us are NOW facing tests of faith, and loyalty to Jehovah's standards, when the GT comes it will be too late then for the leopard to change his spots and we are going to do as we have done so far. The implication of this post is that somehow without the FDS we will not be able to survive the GT. In what way would the FDS play a role in our salvation? Some have likened the FDS to Moses, leading the Israelites through the red sea. Or that we will get some special direction from the FDS which might not make sense. Is this really a correct view? And can it be supported by scripture? Hence my question HOW will the FDS lead us to survive the GT, because if we are loyal, and approved by Jehovah, isn't that the criterion for salvation? Anyway, if you read my other posts to bruceq you will get the general idea of what I am trying to say.... Good idea

Yes, and this is why we are admonished to not forsake gathering ourselves, because this is where we can build one another up and encourage each other to stay faithful. However, this was not what I was talking about in my previous posts. It had to do more with surviving the GT. Would this necessarily depend on all of us being together, being guided by the FDS on what to do, specifically? What is the criterion for surviving the GT?

Well, I wouldn't even worry about it then. Who cares what they think, really?

Would you like my opinion? (I don't have the animated belly roll in my emoticons)

I don't think anyone can ban this forum

Thanks. I was thinking along the same lines. And maybe this is the same problem in the case of "if we remain united with the authentic and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, will lead us to survive the great tribulation". Am I or others misunderstanding what it's saying...?

Regarding the instructions Jesus left his followers about the destruction of Jerusalem, yes, this was passed on to others, and they had scrolls with the prophesy written in them. Many who personally heard those instructions from Jesus were still alive. However, if one is to believe the video "Walk By Faith Not by Sight" it was very much on an individual, or at most familial, basis that the faithful Christians fled to the mountains. Jesus's words as recorded in the scrolls was what individuals followed, as all Christians were familiar with them. At the elders meeting that was held (in the video) it was confirmed that this was evidently the time to flee, because what was written in the scrolls coincided with what was happening around them. I know the WT article. I am not aware anything I have said contradicts it. If there is, let me know.

To my knowledge, no one can be controlled unless they want to be, or unless they are subject to extreme psychological duress. These are all excuses. Assigning blame on something or someone else instead of accepting we went the direction we didn’t really want to go, or changed our mind about the direction later. Most of these accusations are only a cover up for immorality and other behaviours unacceptable in the Christian congregation. The congregation has to be kept morally and doctrinally clean. Recommendation against higher education is just that, recommendation. Humans are very, very good at blaming and making excuses, and have been since the creation of Adam.

Weren't those instructions directly from Jesus? With my question "HOW will the discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, lead us to survive the great tribulation" my intention was not at all to cast doubts on the FDS, but plainly and simply to see if anyone had any ideas as to the PRACTICAL meaning of the statement "that only if we remain united with the authentic and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, will lead us to survive the great tribulation. . Do we have reasons to believe that the FDS will receive some miraculous instructions from Jesus himself? Which they then will pass onto everyone else? To me, this does not seem likely and I do not think the FDS thinks this way either. After all, this is not how it functions now. So would that change in the GT? Is there some scriptural evidence for believing that the FDS will receive some special instruction by way of a revelation of some sort? (Bearing in mind also that we believe the remnant will receive their heavenly reward during that time and will be gone from the earth). From the last convention it was implied that we will be grouped together, hiding some place, in this case a basement. A kind of US and THEM scenario. Of course the brothers admitted this is just speculation, and that it may be quite different in reality. Is Jehovah not able to save individuals in whatever situation they may find themselves in, maybe even separated from their friends? It seems that the criterion for surviving is described well by Peter: "Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah...... Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace." (2 Peter 3: 11-14) And other scriptures such as Matt 24:13, Romans 10:9,10, John 3:36, John 3:16, Heb. 7:25, Acts 16:30, 31 and I am sure you can think of many more. Conversely there are many scriptures showing who will NOT be saved. The other point about being devoted to men, is covered very well in JWInsider's comment, I just want to add one little thing I thought about. If we were devoted to "men" what would happen if a member would become apostate as has happened in the past? There is no guarantee in men. The only unfailing guarantee we have is in Jesus and Jehovah as revealed in the Bible. As for organizational procedures and suggestions, these we find on the website, but mainly in the shape of letters to the congregations. That is not to say the FDS does not provide us abundantly with spiritual food via the WT and other publications and we are grateful for that. But it is still our personal duty to make sure all is in harmony with the scriptures. The FDS expects us to do that also.

I don't want to come between yours and Ann's intellectual conversation, but I think you are analyzing too much @TrueTomHarley Or else it's just an excuse to do some writing?

In practice, what does that mean? I mean how is the FDS going to lead us to survive the great tribulation? I thought it was up to Jehovah and Jesus. This is a sincere question.

I didn't think you meant me, at least I don't see myself as a villain, but I did initially raise the subject . I will check that video out. Thanks.

Yes, I know. Johnson was an odd fellow for sure...

Not sure what you mean by that because to my knowledge there isn't a Liverpool in London. It seems to me he must have docked at Liverpool and then took the train to London, about a 3 hour ride. Thanks for the interesting info! It brings to mind the story of PSL Johnson and the fiasco that ensued when Rutherford sent him to London to take care of some business at the London Bethel. This is what "Harvest Siftings" was based on, and was the beginnings of the dispute and apostasy shortly after Russell died. I remember reading the original story in the WT (1917 I think) and reading about how Johnson jumped out of the Bethel window in his underwear to escape the brothers knocking at his door. Apparently a passerby described the scene to a policeman, it sounded quite comical.

Hey, I was the one who raised that point with the video, but I don't think I ever said it was no good. I just thought it would have been better had the pedophile started out as a normal person, because esentially that is how they start out. The video (at least what I see) assumes that a pedophile is immediately identifiable because there is something different about them. In this case they are like a monster. In reality though, children are groomed very carefully and the younger they are the easier deceived they are. I think it would have been better had they started out looking normal, and as friends, and then turned into a monster in sinc with inappropriate behavior. That would have been more realistic. The mention of "even if it is someone you trust" may possibly get overlooked by a child, since they are so focused on the monster. Children have very selective hearing you know. I dont think children are stupid, but it has been shown by experiment that young children will go with a stranger DESPITE having been taught not to! Why? Because practice is very different from theory, and and even us adults have trouble with the two, how much more so young children. On the other hand, I very much doubt the video was put together without any thoughts or imput from professionals. The society has used the services of Monica Applewhite a number of times. I would be interested to know the reason for the way the video was made. I have not seen the other video. Did someone post it?

Great poem, enjoyed it a lot! Thanks.

@Witness I understand "obedience to the GB/elders" to be more of a "organizational and keeping the congregation moraly clean" nature rather than what the apostle Paul was talking about in context which was: they had a clear command from God, and men were telling them to stop. I have not known the GB to ask us to break any commandment from God. If they did, then obviously we would want to obey God rather than them.

Just in today at JW-Russia.org - translation of a part of the transcript. Speach by Vasily Kalin. Vasily Kalin: "I got a certificate of a victim of political repression. And what kind of certificate does the Justice Ministry want to provide me today? " https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&u=https://www.jw-russia.org/news/17041110-141.html&usg=ALkJrhg0ERVcdLzlsBWfLSIbfWlC6Ne0bg

I don't really see why that should have made the clergy believe they were to do this every year. In context it is clear that Jesus was trying to build up his disciples who were troubled and sad that their friend and teacher will no longer be with them. The preceding sentence: "Do not let your hearts be troubled nor let them shrink out of fear"

Most of it (Easter) focuses on the resurrection of Christ and it is the resurrection that is celebrated, after all that is the happy time and climax of the whole event. But the only ceremonial event that Jesus instructed his followers to observe was the "last supper", practiced by by the Catholics and others as the Eucharist or holy communion etc. (not once a year but many times a year). Easter, for most people and their children, after they have been to the sermon, (that is if they bother to go to church) is about the bunnies and the eggs (chocolate or painted, the eggs that is) etc. with many countries having their own particular Easter traditions (derived from goodness knows where) such as boys flogging girls with hand made braided willow twigs. Ouch. No it isn't. Those who are ignorant believe they are doing a fine thing, they are looking to the authority of the Church as their example and spiritual guide. The early Bible students thought it was a fine thing too. Why did they change? I will have to disagree with you there. Your quoted scripture "(Luke 1:14, 15) 14 You will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of Jehovah. ." to me does not indicate John's birth was to be, or was, celebrated every year. I read it as a statement, that yes, many did rejoice over his birth, and verse 15 I believe was a projection into the future, again making a statement that when he grows up he WILL be great. This shows that rejoicing, although as you pointed out is a celebration too, is different from an actual Church instituted celebration which is based more on ceremonious gestures and traditions rather than spontaneous feelings of joy and appreciation akin to praying constantly and giving thanks (any time, any where).

Yes, but that's not how most people celebrate Easter do they? Especially not those with children.

That may be true, but I have mentioned on this forum a few months ago the issue with countries with extremely large populations such as India and China with over 1.3. billion each totaling aprox. 36% of the world's population where for all intents and purposes no one has even heard of Jehovah's Witnesses, and many, particularly in India don't even know what a Bible is. My question was, would Jehovah discard nearly 3 billion people because they have not heard the Good News of the Kingdom? And if not, how long would it take for those 3 billion (bear in mind the extreme poverty and ignorance in some parts of these countries) to be made sufficiently aware in order to make an informed choice?