Anna

And I didn't even try. I had exactly the same thoughts. I put some ideas down, but then saw the difficulty in implementing them because several "what if's" popped into my mind, and those "what if" scenarios scrapped that idea. I don't know if that's what you meant by humbling task, I agree, it's not as easy as some make it out it to be, for example the "report all to relevant authorities" might make our brother's tasks easier, and will definitely curb the lawsuits, but it will not necessarily eliminate the problem. I can think of one problem immediately; (as I am sure you can) will the knowledge that whatever disclosure regarding child sexual abuse, will immediately be made known to the authorities, prevent some from disclosing? I know for a fact it will. Social workers are obligated (in the US) to tell their clients that if the client decides to disclose things of that nature, the social worker is mandated to report to the authorities. This has prevented many from making that disclosure. Candace Conti was one of them. She only disclosed everything many years later when she filed a lawsuit against WT and the congregation. Probably at Bill Bowen's "brilliant" (not!) prompting. (She most likely ended up without a penny, and despite all the propaganda around the case, the only people who know who she is are ex-witnesses, lawyers and a few journalists. And we will most likely never hear any more from her or her lawyer, Rick Simons (who had plenty to say on You Tube prior the settlement) because NO ONE is allowed to talk about it now). I think what prevented Jackson becoming too proactive about making it comprehensive (at least at the hearing) was that he obviously could not speak for only himself and that any decision obviously has to be made collectively with all the GB members present. Plus every single scripture pertaining to that subject, and every scriptural principle has to be carefully scrutinized. This is why I am so curious to see the outcome of the March hearing, as in 2015, the Chair (McClellan) said he expected to see some improved policies by the next hearing in 2017..... If you are talking about Witness, then that is not his/her blog but some crazy woman's, who thinks the GB and the WT are the antichrist....

Yup. As soon as I wrote that, a hundred different scenarios raced through my head, as you say, 50 shades of grey and some. This is what the whole child sexual abuse affair is about, 50 shades of grey. I should have perhaps clarified that and used a different description…..something like: most human beings hate the thought of a child being sexually abused. I agree with you totally of course. The problem is with the fact that it’s not that simple to identify sexual abuse. It’s not like murder, where we have an obvious victim, (a body), and obviously a murderer. But even then, in many cases, the murderer is not found. Without concrete proof, everyone is innocent…..until proved guilty. I remember following the Casey Anthony case, to me, all the signs were there that she killed her two year old daughter, but the Police could not prove it. So she got some prison time for lying, and now is free. By the way, did you ever manage to put together a draft of what you thought might be the best policy for us when handling child sexual abuse? I know we talked about it a while ago when the ARC first started. You had some ideas of what you thought should be done. I did too, but never put anything together. It looks like we will be seeing a new policy soon, come the hearing in March, and I wonder if it will look like anything we would have come up with….

You misunderstood me. I did say (reporting child abuse) "will free the elders to concentrate more on helping the victim spiritually, and leave the rest to the authorities". I did not mean elders would investigate the crime. If, lets say a parent, suspicious of their child being sexually abused by someone, approaches an elder with that concern, it is logical that the elders should ask some questions. (Unless of course the parent already volunteers enough information which convinces the elders something might be going on). It wouldn't be right for the elders to contact the authorities with every allegation of child abuse (read this paper) unless they have a reasonable evidence themselves to suspect something (whether that is based on information from a parent/other member of the congregation or the victim) Of course the parent/other member of the congregation can bypass the elders and go straight to the police. Once the allegation is reported to the relevant authority, by the elders or others, then if the alleged perpetrator is a congregation member, and especially if they hold some responsibility, the elders do have to act in a congregational manner since the alleged perpetrator is now no longer "irreprehensible" even if the accusations are eventually proved wrong. What about the victim and their family? Do the elders have to wait until what the authorities establish? This may take months. In the meantime, surely the elders should be able to perform pastoral work, especially at a time where it might be needed the most. I understand why it is important not to interfere with professional work, but the elders cannot just ignore the family and the victim. No doubt there will be guidelines published on what the elders should and what they shouldn't talk about so as not to inadvertently hamper investigation..... Policies are no good if they don't work in practice. Read this interesting report (first posted by CMP) Because the right and responsible thing might not necessarily be to report every allegation of child sexual abuse. Why do you think it has taken states this long to make reporting mandatory? Think about it.

Where can one get a hold of it?

Thanks for sharing your experiences Arauna. Most of us from the West have never encountered situations like that and it's good to remember that those who are stricken in some way, does not necessarily mean they have a spiritual need....I am thinking of the refugee situation in Europe, I was there a couple of months ago and saw some very pity full looking families. The friends try bring them hope, but often times they view us like a charity that merely provides materially. This is the kind of reputation the churches have, so this is what they expect from us too....

Very interesting article. Thank you. I hope our situation will be a lot more simpler come the hearing on March 10th. It seems that there is a lot of red tape in the Catholic Church, (not surprising) but really we should not have that kind of problem. Our concern is simple, whatever we do, will it be in harmony with Bible principles. Geoffrey Jackson alluded to that when questioned by Council Assisting (who also recognized the importance the Scriptures play in our decision making) Council Assisting (Stewart): “Leaving aside the question of overriding mandatory law from the civil authorities, do you see the possibility within the scriptures as you have identified them for a change in the practice of Jehovah's Witnesses? In other words, would it be within the scriptures for the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation to adopt a policy which says that in cases where there are others at risk, a report must be made to the authorities”? G Jackson: “That is a possible thing for us to consider, and I think, already, the assumption is there, that if any elder was to see that there was some definite risk, that their conscience should move them to do that. But the point I was trying to make, Mr Stewart, is there are other scriptural factors that maybe make that a little complicated, and it would certainly be a lot easier if we had mandatory laws on that”. So that's should be our only "red tape" and of course I say that not meaning that the Bible is some kind of excessive and unnecessary bureaucratic formality, but it is something that we JWs, as opposed to Christendom, make our only guide and standard. Nowhere in the discussions of the Catholic Church with the ARC have I heard the Bible mentioned once. Of course. You are right. No one in their right mind tolerates child abuse, individuals in the Catholic Church don't either. The only institutions that not only tolerate it but make money off it are the child porn industry and sex slave trade. As you say, it's all about the policies. Lets hope that very soon our policies will be the best possible...

Well...it looks like Stephanie Fessler settled....we will never find out what really happened now.... http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/jehovahs_witness_sexual_abuse.html

It’s impossible for us physical beings to even imagine what it’s like to be a spirit being. Those who will go to heaven won’t know until they get there. Obviously it’s a totally foreign dimension to us, hence anthropomorphic expressions are helpful. However most of Christendom’s adherents imagine heaven like what physical paradise earth will be; trees, streams, mountains etc.One of my Bible studies, a scientist, knew that a spirit universe couldn’t be anything like a physical universe. It’s scientifically impossible. She told me that she could never understand how people could think that when they went to heaven they would be playing cards with their grandpa.....and the harp. I guess she forgot that not everyone thinks like a scientist. The strangest thing of all is that the Mormons believe that the physical person, literally flesh and blood, will go to heaven....(and own a planet) I don't think even the Catholics think that, but they do believe they will have wings

Yeah! The thing is, I don't even really want to talk about "Ignorance of child abuse within the JW community" as this topic has already been discussed ad nauseam on here in various forms, ask the others. It looks like I keep letting myself be sucked into it though

I know, but that's my point, will someone you know and trust look and act like a sleazy monster.. I know, but no one will notice that really, because the first thing they will see is the topic title followed by "started by Anna"...

By the way I never started this topic! I wish admin. wouldn't keep doing this.......taking the liberty to move threads from topics started by a specific person and then claim it was a topic started by someone else without asking and/or clarifying.

I have a friend in Australia, a very spiritual, zealous, sweet and humble sister, her husband is an elder and coordinator, and when I asked her about the general consensus of the friends there, she quoted a scripture "But there is nothing carefully concealed that will not be revealed, and nothing secret that will not become known" Luke 12:2 .

I don't mean to be negative, although it is a good video, in my opinion though I've always thought that depicting the "bad guy" as a monster type looking thing is a little misleading (for the children at least) because it makes it look like the "bad guy" is going to be easily identifiable, because.....well he LOOKS bad, and acts CREEPY, whereas in reality a sexual predator grooms his victims and appears very nice to the children, and others. Many times the child molester is a member of the family. The children might be looking for someone sleazy, and might be thrown off guard if the person is a "nice" brother in the congregation, a friend of the family, or even sadly a parent. I might be wrong, just my thought...

He wasn’t able to address the law makers directly as he was talking to the Australian Royal Commission. But it is very clear that this is what he was saying at least on three occasions. Here are three quotes from the transcript: G. Jackson: “Thank you for the opportunity to explain this. I think very clearly Mr Toole pointed out that if the Australian Government, in all the States, was to make mandatory reporting, it would make it so much easier for us”. G. Jackson: “The point being, here, another aspect that an elder needs to consider is he does not have the authority to lord it over or take over control of a family arrangement, where a person - let's say it is a victim who is 24 or 25 years of age - has a right to decide whether or not they will report that incident. They also respect the family arrangement that the appointed guardian, who is not the perpetrator, has a certain right, too. So this is the spiritual dilemma that we have, because at the same time, we want to make sure that children are cared for. So if the government does happen to make mandatory reporting, that will make this dilemma so much easier for us, because we all want the same goal,that children will be cared for properly”. Council Assisting (Stewart): “Leaving aside the question of overriding mandatory law from the civil authorities, do you see the possibility within the scriptures as you have identified them for a change in the practice of Jehovah's Witnesses? In other words, would it be within the scriptures for the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation to adopt a policy which says that in cases where there are others at risk, a report must be made to the authorities”? G Jackson: “That is a possible thing for us to consider, and I think, already, the assumption is there, that if any elder was to see that there was some definite risk, that their conscience should move them to do that. But the point I was trying to make, Mr Stewart, is there are other scriptural factors that maybe make that a little complicated, and it would certainly be a lot easier if we had mandatory laws on that”. In my opinion mandatory reporting will definitely make the elders less culpable, but it will not necessarily solve the problem in protecting children. Yes, perhaps you are being a bit cynical. The reason why some states/countries are hesitant to enforce mandatory reporting may be due to the reasons found in this paper: http://www.nccpr.org/reports/mandatoryreporting.pdf

I think that's just "old" speak, maybe wanting to sound a little Shakespearean perhaps? "Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once. Of all the wonders that I yet have heard, it seems to me most strange that men should fear; Seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come"...... But then guess what, I found this! http://prestwickhouse.blogspot.com/2009/12/plain-english-how-yoda-helps-students.htmlo So I wasn't too far off the mark after all

I cant help it but this absolutely cracks me up! Seriously now, you might have made them think, but do you ever get the opportunity to follow up? What do you call highly effective besides not wasting gas?

This is the kind of situation that will be ideal for the Elders as they will not need to worry about what to do with a child sexual abuser and will just leave it all to the police. Gone will be the days where Elders are accused of leaving an alleged child molester at large in the congregation or community, this will be the authorities problem. No wonder Geoffrey Jackson pleaded with the Australian Government to make mandatory reporting the law in every territory! The WTBTS is going to report any allegations of child abuse to the authorities where mandated to do so.

I believe the hearing is scheduled for Friday 10th March. There is no time allocated yet but since Sydney is GMT + 11 it will likely be on Saturday for most of us....but it's not that big of a deal, because there will be transcripts of the whole hearing available.

Allegations disclosed to the elders are disclosed to the elders for a reason. If it's an allegation against a congregation member, by a congregation member, then it is expected to be handled at congregation level. Elders do not claim to be substitutes for secular authorities. The elders job is to keep the congregation clean spiritually and morally. In order to be able to do that, the elders need information, I am sure you will agree with that. However, how much and what kind of information is required is different to what secular authorities require and something that will probably change. With mandatory reporting any disclosure will immediately be reported to the police. This will free the elders to concentrate more on helping the victim spiritually, and leave the rest to the authorities. Right?

It’s always easy to see what should have been done after the fact. It’s not always the case when you’ve been thrown head first into a situation, one perhaps you have never encountered. Reminded me of the movie Sully (about the pilot who landed his plane in the Hudson) where he is being accused by the transport safety board of a bad decision; for not having taken the plane to LaGuardia, as all the flight simulations showed he could have landed the plane there quite safely. Instead, he opted for the risky landing on the Hudson. In the hearing, Sully reminds the Board that the flight simulations, although using live pilots, are devoid of the human factor. The pilots in the simulation already knew what they were going to do, they knew that immediately after the bird strike they would turn the plane around and head straight for the airport. They had practiced this 17 times! However, in real life, this would have never happen of course. A pilot confronted with this situation would need time to decide what his best options were and he would only have one shot at it. To take this into account, the Board gives Sully 35 seconds to allow for this human factor. Needless to say, in the revised simulations, the plane never makes it, and crashes. Also, the preliminary investigation of the engines showed that one engine was still functioning. This was later found to be false, both engines were rendered useless by the bird strike. Sully got away with being a hero, and rightly so. However, had the Board not been generous in admitting the human factor, and had the second engine not been found, his eventuality may have been quite different. He could have been charged with pilot error, and of needlessly putting the lives of 150 people at risk. Had some lives been lost, he would have been held responsible. Child sexual abuse is much more complex than people would like to believe. One can never be sure of exactly what happened and the situation surrounding it. There is no black box or flight recordings. Many of these cases are brought to light many years later. There may be all kinds of evidence, but there is no guarantee that this evidence is wholly true or is fool proof. Many times elders involved in these cases have encountered them for the first time and due to human factor have not reacted perfectly or according to the book. On top of that, secular attitudes and laws keep changing. What doesn’t help in the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses is that most of the abuse occurs in the home, and many times in dysfunctional families. The world hasn’t got it right either. Hence the institutional investigations. These will hopefully improve the way child sexual abuse is handled across the board in all institutions, and thus will help to safeguard as many children as possible..... The whole world does not know about this at all. It's not as important to many people as you think. (And I mean non JW people). Besides commissions set up to investigate this problem, the people it interests most are journalists, Lawyers, opposers, ex-JWs and JWs who know about it. Don't put JWs in the same basket. You should know better than that JTR

Well of course you are right. If it's something JTR has posted then you can be sure that at least half of the time it's something he got (directly or indirectly) from apostate Web sites. He really should stop that habit, he's not helping himself at all, just helping to feed his already negative experiences and cynical viewpoint...like pouring salt on a wound. And although it's meant in jest many times, and sometimes it IS actually funny, sadly, one day it could bring him down to the point of no return.

Some good reasoning there Melinda. In a nutshell, the worldly way is all about ME. The Christian way is about others, and putting Kingdom interests first.

And what would one say if four Jehovah's Witnesses got married? And the other two, that were just a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses that got married were not attached in some way?

Why, is it going to bite? Why should we care......?